Yo CMC - the ele empire is here - all classes lose viability in the face of ele

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

I'd like to put into perspective how very far ahead Ele is in terms of performance than other classes.

On a performance scale of 1-10, one low and ten highest, this is how I would rank class performance right now:

1. Core War = 7
2. Berserker = 8
3. Spellbreaker = 8
4. Bladesworn = 9
5. Core Guard = 7
6. Dragonhunter = 8
7. Firebrand = 5
8. Willbender = 8
9. Core Rev = 6
10. Herald = 7.5
11. Renegade = 6
12. Vindicator = 8.5
13. Core Engi = 6
14. Scrapper = 8
15. Tool Holo = 8
16. Mechanist = 6
17. Core Thief = 6
18. Daredevil = 8
19. Deadeye = 7.5
20. Specter = 7
21. Core Ranger = 7
22. Druid = 9
23. Soulbeast = 8
24. Untamed = 8
25. Core Necro = 6
26. Reaper = 9
27. Scourge = 5
28. Harbinger = 8
29. Core Mesmer = 7
30. Chronomancer = 9
31. Mirage = 8
32. Virtuoso = 9
33. Core Ele = 8.5
34. Tempest = 12
35. Weaver = 12
36. Catalyst = 15

The saddest part about this, is that in the absence of Ele, the game kind of feels balanced for the most part, and we are missing out on that due to this absurd state of Ele. That's too bad.

[rodrigo.5608]

1 hour ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

I'd like to put into perspective how very far ahead Ele is in terms of performance than other classes.

On a performance scale of 1-10, one low and ten highest, this is how I would rank class performance right now:

1. Core War = 7
2. Berserker = 8
3. Spellbreaker = 8
4. Bladesworn = 9
5. Core Guard = 7
6. Dragonhunter = 8
7. Firebrand = 5
8. Willbender = 8
9. Core Rev = 6
10. Herald = 7.5
11. Renegade = 6
12. Vindicator = 8.5
13. Core Engi = 6
14. Scrapper = 8
15. Tool Holo = 8
16. Mechanist = 6
17. Core Thief = 6
18. Daredevil = 8
19. Deadeye = 7.5
20. Specter = 7
21. Core Ranger = 7
22. Druid = 9
23. Soulbeast = 8
24. Untamed = 8
25. Core Necro = 6
26. Reaper = 9
27. Scourge = 5
28. Harbinger = 8
29. Core Mesmer = 7
30. Chronomancer = 9
31. Mirage = 8
32. Virtuoso = 9
33. Core Ele = 8.5
34. Tempest = 12
35. Weaver = 12
36. Catalyst = 15

The saddest part about this, is that in the absence of Ele, the game kind of feels balanced for the most part, and we are missing out on that due to this absurd state of Ele. That's too bad.

Weaver= 12 ? I think you got the numbers wrong, put 5 or 4

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

1 hour ago, rodrigo.5608 said:

Weaver= 12 ? I think you got the numbers wrong, put 5 or 4

Oh come on man.

I've been in games with you where you are tanking 3 people on a Weaver while holding a node and never going bellow 50% health.

Sure, you're a good Ele player, but for the class to provide mechanical room to actually be able to do that in this meta, that's insanely strong, especially when the build isn't even a full dedicated bunker and still has a lot of DPS.

I mean in comparison with other things with Weaver level DPS, those things would explode and die immediately if they stayed on node in a 1v3.

This is what people are saying, this is what it boils down to. The Ele should have to chose between DPS but a bit squishy, or tanky but lower DPS. It SHOULD NOT be able to be highest burst in the game while also highest defense in the game with some of the highest kite & chase potential, along with being the best support, even when isn't stated for it.

And yes, Weaver is on that list after these buffs. It might not be as bad as Catalyst but it is still overperforming far past what it should be in comparison to other classes.

Edited July 2, 2023 by Trevor Boyer.6524

[Dreams.3128]

9 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Oh come on man.

I've been in games with you where you are tanking 3 people on a Weaver while holding a node and never going bellow 50% health.

Sure, you're a good Ele player, but for the class to provide mechanical room to actually be able to do that in this meta, that's insanely strong, especially when the build isn't even a full dedicated bunker and still has a lot of DPS.

I mean in comparison with other things with Weaver level DPS, those things would explode and die immediately if they stayed on node in a 1v3.

This is what people are saying, this is what it boils down to. The Ele should have to chose between DPS but a bit squishy, or tanky but lower DPS. It SHOULD NOT be able to be highest burst in the game while also highest defense in the game with some of the highest kite & chase potential, along with being the best support, even when isn't stated for it.

And yes, Weaver is on that list after these buffs. It might not be as bad as Catalyst but it is still overperforming far past what it should be in comparison to other classes.

We did have that balance actually. People essentially led to the deletion of our amulets to lock us into certain roles and screamed for our specs to do something else . Tempest used to do all healing and no damage but people said it healed too much. Weaver used to to be all condi and health, but had an issue with surviving against Power, people said it did do much condi damage and wanted it to be toned down while upping its sustain. Core Ele, once the D/D cele terror was dead, didn't do toooo much except for FA. But through the years each new spec took over FA in a new way. People complained about that as well.

Honestly, this is not to insult you Trevor, but what do YOU and other people want from Ele? You wanted sustain, hated it, you wanted damage, hated it. What DO you want the class to do so Anet doesn't keep just flip flopping every year or every other year? (Even though Anet hasn't proved they could balance well anyways.) Admittedly, I'm attempting to pick at your brain at this point to understand your ideal vision for Ele.

[Jeyy.5028]

3 hours ago, Dreams.3128 said:

We did have that balance actually. People essentially led to the deletion of our amulets to lock us into certain roles and screamed for our specs to do something else . Tempest used to do all healing and no damage but people said it healed too much. Weaver used to to be all condi and health, but had an issue with surviving against Power, people said it did do much condi damage and wanted it to be toned down while upping its sustain. Core Ele, once the D/D cele terror was dead, didn't do toooo much except for FA. But through the years each new spec took over FA in a new way. People complained about that as well.

Honestly, this is not to insult you Trevor, but what do YOU and other people want from Ele? You wanted sustain, hated it, you wanted damage, hated it. What DO you want the class to do so Anet doesn't keep just flip flopping every year or every other year? (Even though Anet hasn't proved they could balance well anyways.) Admittedly, I'm attempting to pick at your brain at this point to understand your ideal vision for Ele.

well said. Pretty much everyone on this forum. I play all 3 light armor classes, thief and engineer and I've never had a problem with Ele; I still dont. People complain because its not their class

[Waffles.5632]

On 7/2/2023 at 12:03 PM, Jeyy.5028 said:

well said. Pretty much everyone on this forum. I play all 3 light armor classes, thief and engineer and I've never had a problem with Ele; I still dont. People complain because its not their class

I don't have a problem with ele, therefore ele is fine. 🤪

[Arheundel.6451]

3 hours ago, Dreams.3128 said:

We did have that balance actually. People essentially led to the deletion of our amulets to lock us into certain roles and screamed for our specs to do something else . Tempest used to do all healing and no damage but people said it healed too much. Weaver used to to be all condi and health, but had an issue with surviving against Power, people said it did do much condi damage and wanted it to be toned down while upping its sustain. Core Ele, once the D/D cele terror was dead, didn't do toooo much except for FA. But through the years each new spec took over FA in a new way. People complained about that as well.

Honestly, this is not to insult you Trevor, but what do YOU and other people want from Ele? You wanted sustain, hated it, you wanted damage, hated it. What DO you want the class to do so Anet doesn't keep just flip flopping every year or every other year? (Even though Anet hasn't proved they could balance well anyways.) Admittedly, I'm attempting to pick at your brain at this point to understand your ideal vision for Ele.

You will never find that type of answer by asking players on the forum as you will always receive a biased opinion from their perspective. What you can do instead is look into the mirror and ask yourself a set of simple questions:

1.  Do I think is fun and engaging to fight me on ele?
2. Is it ok for me to be playing in such a wasteful way and still come out on top?

I see eles going: conjurer earth shield into arcane shield into fortified earth into Obsidian flesh into mist form (in some instances) into another arcane shield then back to 2nd conjure earth shield...all the while pushing forward condi PBaoe targets in a 240-360 radius...don't you think there is something wrong with that? I am asking this as somebody who played ele for thousand of hours and everybody knows it

 

 

[Jeyy.5028]

8 minutes ago, Waffles.5632 said:

I don't have a problem with ele, therefore ele is fine. 🤪

yes there isn't. majority of the player base just wants the easy way out of having the FOTM nerfed. Maybe play battlebit remastered if you're already admitting to your l2p issue

[Waffles.5632]

On 7/2/2023 at 12:32 PM, Jeyy.5028 said:

yes there isn't. majority of the player base just wants the easy way out of having the FOTM nerfed. Maybe play battlebit remastered if you're already admitting to your l2p issue

Comments like this that are directed at me are top tier comedy.

I've been playing one dodge power mirage for ~3yrs now. I have seen 5+ spvp metas, from scourge all the way to cata now. I have a very unique view in regards to balance in pvp. In fact I have probably the most fair and reasoned approach to gw2 pvp balance among all posters here, solely because I have been playing the weakest class mechanically with one dodge, no condi cleanse, no sustain. It's pure skill and that's why I enjoy it.

But please, continue with your point, what was it again? 🙂

Edited July 2, 2023 by Waffles.5632

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

4 hours ago, Dreams.3128 said:

Honestly, this is not to insult you Trevor, but what do YOU and other people want from Ele? You wanted sustain, hated it, you wanted damage, hated it. What DO you want the class to do so Anet doesn't keep just flip flopping every year or every other year?

1. I never was one of those people who said I wanted this or that from Ele. The only thing I've ever said about Ele before all of the mega buffs in the past 12 months, is that 1) Too much aura play was coming off of Tempests, and that it made the game feel like a traffic jam, and 2) Elemental Bastion was healing too much considering the level of damage mitigation that comes with party aura share. Even during the first phase with Hammer Catalyst when it became good and the best side noder, I had only ever said: "It's the strongest 1v1 and the auras make it annoying to hit". However, now after all the massive buffing, Ele builds are no longer simply the best support or the strongest 1v1, they are officially massively & insanely overpowered. Absolutely no class can 1v1 an Ele, and lately I see even mediocre Ele players routinely surviving 1v2s, quite effortlessly while actually generating downstates and finishing kills. You have to play Ele to deal with Ele now. Other classes are simply shut out of viability and I 100% guarantee that if none of this is fixed, the MAT will absolutely reflect this with most good teams rolling 4 to 5 Ele stacks. Everything about Ele, its offense, defense, kiting, chasing, support value, is like 3 to 4 patches deep into over-buffing with no balancing.
2. At this point, players just want to be able to interact with Ele again. Right now, Ele is so strong that non-Ele classes can't even interact with it man. I think most people are accepting that CMC is going to make sure that Ele is always dominant at every job role, often being able to play all job roles at once in a single build. I think people are expecting Eles to be 10s and 11s on a scale of 1 to 10 due to this acceptance. Even though that is still annoying and obnoxious for Ele to always be the favorite child when every other class is hovering around a value factor of 8 or 9, at least you can like "interact with the Ele" even though it's OP, when it's a 10. But right now, Ele is soooo far ahead in value & power level, that Catalyst is very seriously, easily pumping like a 15 power factor on a scale of 1 to 10 where ten is the highest, and even Tempests & Weavers are rocking 12s. I was not exaggerating when I listed those numbers. Ele really is insanely over-buffed in every way ten-fold over. This class does not need the usual little tweaks & alterations as usual. What it needs is massive heavy nerfing. But to answer your question directly, honestly I'm not sure about a list of exact details to give you right now. The problems are so deep with Ele at this point that thy span the full core class Ele wide and also reside within all the specializations, save Weaver. I think Weaver is fine. But Core Ele, Tempest, and Catalyst, I'd need to sit down for a couple of hours and really take a look at previous patch notes and hone in where certain problems occured and how the progressed, to be able to give you some kind of detailed rundown of a list of nerfs. That is something I don't have time for right now.

To any Ele main who argues this, I would urge that Ele main to go try and play a non-Ele class for awhile, and then come back to rejoin this discussion, once they've established a stronger realization of the disparity of difference in power level between Ele and other classes.

Edited July 2, 2023 by Trevor Boyer.6524

[Eddie.9143]

Slightly nerf signets

Nerf fire scepter auto

Get rid of quickness on spheres and make it 2 sec alacrity.

Give gale an actual big colorful animation 

[zyra.7860]

20 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

I'd like to put into perspective how very far ahead Ele is in terms of performance than other classes.

On a performance scale of 1-10, one low and ten highest, this is how I would rank class performance right now:

1. Core War = 7
2. Berserker = 8
3. Spellbreaker = 8
4. Bladesworn = 9
5. Core Guard = 7
6. Dragonhunter = 8
7. Firebrand = 5
8. Willbender = 8
9. Core Rev = 6
10. Herald = 7.5
11. Renegade = 6
12. Vindicator = 8.5
13. Core Engi = 6
14. Scrapper = 8
15. Tool Holo = 8
16. Mechanist = 6
17. Core Thief = 6
18. Daredevil = 8
19. Deadeye = 7.5
20. Specter = 7
21. Core Ranger = 7
22. Druid = 9
23. Soulbeast = 8
24. Untamed = 8
25. Core Necro = 6
26. Reaper = 9
27. Scourge = 5
28. Harbinger = 8
29. Core Mesmer = 7
30. Chronomancer = 9
31. Mirage = 8
32. Virtuoso = 9
33. Core Ele = 8.5
34. Tempest = 12
35. Weaver = 12
36. Catalyst = 15

The saddest part about this, is that in the absence of Ele, the game kind of feels balanced for the most part, and we are missing out on that due to this absurd state of Ele. That's too bad.

That is your opinion and most of players dont agree it. You are known to be very biased and hate against ele, so your opinion is not really relevant on this discussion. 

 

Are you plat 3 or above? If not, then your words mean nothing.

[Eddie.9143]

13 minutes ago, zyra.7860 said:

That is your opinion and most of players dont agree it. You are known to be very biased and hate against ele, so your opinion is not really relevant on this discussion. 

 

Are you plat 3 or above? If not, then your words mean nothing.

I actually think his list is pretty kitten accurate, and ele 1000% over performing and anyone trying to claim it isn't is coping.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

1 hour ago, Eddie.9143 said:

Slightly nerf signets

Nerf fire scepter auto

Get rid of quickness on spheres and make it 2 sec alacrity.

Give gale an actual big colorful animation 

1. The Signet trait needs to be completely reworked if not completely reverted. First of all, it DOES NOT need to be granting extra auras in conjunction with a trait that cleanses condis with every aura. This is the most ridiculous case of over-buffing the game has ever seen when it comes to intended features that weren't bugs. Ele was ultra hard to kill before this man. Now after it, it's just virtually unstoppable.
2. Scepter auto definitely needs to lose the burn, and it needs to lose the might stacking for random burning things. Ele has enough ways to blast and fire aura their way to 25 might, having these two things together is massive might buffing overkill. This is largely responsible for why every single thing they do hits like a truck, even rando splash damage.
3. The boons from Jade Sphere and how they function need to be completely reverted to how it was before the 6/27 patch.
4. I personally don't mind if Gale is unblockable and stays the way it is, but it should be lowered to a 1s knockdown.
5. ^ This still isn't even half-way to the kinds of nerfs Ele needs to be put back into the realm of 9s and 10s with other classes, instead of being a 12 through 15 on various specs. The class is disgusting bloated.

22 minutes ago, zyra.7860 said:

That is your opinion and most of players dont agree it. You are known to be very biased and hate against ele, so your opinion is not really relevant on this discussion. 

 

Are you plat 3 or above? If not, then your words mean nothing.

Gaslighting on an alt is fun.

Edited July 2, 2023 by Trevor Boyer.6524

[WhoWantsAHug.3186]

21 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

I'd like to put into perspective how very far ahead Ele is in terms of performance than other classes.

On a performance scale of 1-10, one low and ten highest, this is how I would rank class performance right now:

1. Core War = 7
2. Berserker = 8
3. Spellbreaker = 8
4. Bladesworn = 9
5. Core Guard = 7
6. Dragonhunter = 8
7. Firebrand = 5
8. Willbender = 8
9. Core Rev = 6
10. Herald = 7.5
11. Renegade = 6
12. Vindicator = 8.5
13. Core Engi = 6
14. Scrapper = 8
15. Tool Holo = 8
16. Mechanist = 6
17. Core Thief = 6
18. Daredevil = 8
19. Deadeye = 7.5
20. Specter = 7
21. Core Ranger = 7
22. Druid = 9
23. Soulbeast = 8
24. Untamed = 8
25. Core Necro = 6
26. Reaper = 9
27. Scourge = 5
28. Harbinger = 8
29. Core Mesmer = 7
30. Chronomancer = 9
31. Mirage = 8
32. Virtuoso = 9
33. Core Ele = 8.5
34. Tempest = 12
35. Weaver = 12
36. Catalyst = 15

The saddest part about this, is that in the absence of Ele, the game kind of feels balanced for the most part, and we are missing out on that due to this absurd state of Ele. That's too bad.

This guy was mass complaining about druid for like 3 weeks straight then gives it a 9/10. 

[Paradoxoglanis.1904]

21 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

• Firebrand = 5
• Core Engi = 6
• Scourge = 5

Hahaha we did it

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

8 minutes ago, WhoWantsAHug.3186 said:

This guy was mass complaining about druid for like 3 weeks straight then gives it a 9/10. 

Game patches change things.

The changes to the GM spirit trait, the spirits themselves, and lingering light, have enabled viable Support Druid specs. And in the absence of Eles, they are actually incredibly strong.

You'll be able to respect this: GW2 PvP Power And Condi Support Druid Viable - evolution - Twitch Keep in mind what's making these builds good is that they are supports and side noders. If it weren't for Eles, the two builds in this video would easily be dominant on side nodes, and if they couldn't kill the person on the side node, they wouldn't have to leave it and could hold it. I'm not going full explain the build here. I'll be doing a video on it soon as i'd like to share it with the Druid community. First time Support Druid has ever been viable tbh. I've been excited about it.

[Avead.5760]

42 minutes ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

1. The Signet trait needs to be completely reworked if not completely reverted. First of all, it DOES NOT need to be granting extra auras in conjunction with a trait that cleanses condis with every aura. This is the most ridiculous case of over-buffing the game has ever seen when it comes to intended features that weren't bugs. Ele was ultra hard to kill before this man. Now after it, it's just virtually unstoppable.
2. Scepter auto definitely needs to lose the burn, and it needs to lose the might stacking for random burning things. Ele has enough ways to blast and fire aura their way to 25 might, having these two things together is massive might buffing overkill. This is largely responsible for why every single thing they do hits like a truck, even rando splash damage.
3. The boons from Jade Sphere and how they function need to be completely reverted to how it was before the 6/27 patch.
4. I personally don't mind if Gale is unblockable and stays the way it is, but it should be lowered to a 1s knockdown.
5. ^ This still isn't even half-way to the kinds of nerfs Ele needs to be put back into the realm of 9s and 10s with other classes, instead of being a 12 through 15 on various specs. The class is disgusting bloated.

 

Without claiming here that ele is not op CAUSE IT IS OP. I have to point out that you have no idea what the class even does.. you are suggesting changes on things that do not exist.There is no might on burning but might on skill usage you lose when swapping out of fire. Spheres work exactly as they were before patch since the change was pve only. Also using signets means you don't take the op block and earth shield so ele is not net harder to kill that is a hard statement to verify.

FINALLY I think gale should have 1/8 sec knockdown what if the game engine doesn't allow it we should rewrite it for you! Why am I baiting myself back into this s--tshow..? I haven't launched the game in months kitten. I guess I just can't help being curious how low it will get.

 

 

Edited July 2, 2023 by Avead.5760

[WhoWantsAHug.3186]

41 minutes ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Game patches change things.

The changes to the GM spirit trait, the spirits themselves, and lingering light, have enabled viable Support Druid specs. And in the absence of Eles, they are actually incredibly strong.

You'll be able to respect this: GW2 PvP Power And Condi Support Druid Viable - evolution - Twitch Keep in mind what's making these builds good is that they are supports and side noders. If it weren't for Eles, the two builds in this video would easily be dominant on side nodes, and if they couldn't kill the person on the side node, they wouldn't have to leave it and could hold it. I'm not going full explain the build here. I'll be doing a video on it soon as i'd like to share it with the Druid community. First time Support Druid has ever been viable tbh. I've been excited about it.

Dude you were complaining about the patch POST PATCH lol. "I've been excited about it" for what? All of 15 minutes? 

Quote

6/27/2023 at 2:31 PM, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Bruh, you'd think anything was amazing if you posted that link to that bad build and told us "it was excellent".

Support Druid is in worse shape than it was before this patch. We're not going to see any viable play from Support Druid.

You can play and believe whatever you want, enjoy.

No

You're posting a load of bologna. Even when you run DPS and only pop #3 on a #2 and immediately leave CA Kit to actually preserve CA energy for the fastest reuse of DC & CS possible, it still takes nearly 20s for the CA energy to build back up, and maybe 15s if you pop a heal utility and have some regen in the background.

The idea behind "reducing CA Kit CD for healing allies" is entirely fundamentally flawed from the ground up because to do that, you would need to stay and sit in CA Kit, which is just a bad idea for every reason, including bottoming out your CA energy. So it wouldn't matter if you reduced the CA Kit down to a 10s CD because now you have wait like 20s for your CA energy to refill before you can use it again lol.

Upon this, understand the simple math behind this concept:

1. When you dip in and out of CA Kit quickly, staying in only maybe 1s to cast #3 and #2 and then leave, the CA energy will be full again when the 20s CD is up. You are able to use DC & CS roughly about every 21 seconds this way.
2. When you go into CA Kit and stand there in it and spam heals for 10s attempting to lower the CD of CA Kit, you are adding +10s in between your intervals of use of DC & CS because the CD for CA Kit doesn't begin UNTIL YOU LEAVE THE CA KIT. Then when you leave the CA Kit, your CA energy is bottomed out from trying to support heal. Even if you bring it down to a 10s CD from heals AFTER you sat in it for 10s, if you could somehow magically fill the CA energy to the top immediately, you would still only be benefitting DC & CS once per about 21s. But realistically, you cannot immediately refill the CA energy, and you will be waiting to fill that bar for at least 15s to 20s for use, regardless of the CA Kit CD reduction. Realistically, you are using DC & CS once per 30s to 35s when you are trying to play support. This is much less frequent than a DPS Druid and makes you much more prone to being singled out and targeted.

Those new traits are a flop design, and these are all the kinds of reasons why Support Druid is just bad in pvp. What it needed, was direct improvements to its mechanics, not random small condi buffs to CA Kit which has several reasons why (A) it doesn't hit anything, and (B) you can't even afford to stay in long enough to use those heals or condis.

Just INB4 posting more disinformation man.

I know you want to be a believer, but some truths you've got to accept

This you?

Edited July 2, 2023 by WhoWantsAHug.3186

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

48 minutes ago, WhoWantsAHug.3186 said:

Dude you were complaining about the patch POST PATCH lol. "I've been excited about it" for what? All of 15 minutes? 

This you?

Yeah you got me on that one. I spoke too soon before testing it.

The changes are still god awful in pve though. I tested various different setups & routines to make heal/alac work and it's just an overly sweaty unnecessary inconvenient build to run now.

If anything in pve, Druid may form a unique archetype that is a DPS that is also a burst healer, and then it can run with DPS quick and DPS alac. Because heal/alac is just really unwieldly in every way possible now.

I found a way to pull it off, but in no way is it as accurate or convenient as Druid prepatch:

GW2 New Heal Druid Method post june 27 patch - Twitch

 

Also, they really need to revert Eclipse back into Ancient Seeds. That or greatly buff the condi outputs on Eclipse. The removal of Ancient Seeds hurt DPS Druid too much.

Edited July 2, 2023 by Trevor Boyer.6524

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

20 hours ago, rodrigo.5608 said:

Weaver= 12 ? I think you got the numbers wrong, put 5 or 4

weaver still works and requires a significant amount of skill exhaustion to go downstate. 

Edited July 2, 2023 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

2 hours ago, Eddie.9143 said:

I actually think his list is pretty kitten accurate, and ele 1000% over performing and anyone trying to claim it isn't is coping.

*shrug*

Agreed. Given the relative class positions the numbers are mostly fair, and the ones I'm not fully on board with are only a single digit off.

Edited July 2, 2023 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[WhoWantsAHug.3186]

2 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Yeah you got me on that one. I spoke too soon before testing it.

The changes are still god awful in pve though. I tested various different setups & routines to make heal/alac work and it's just an overly sweaty unnecessary inconvenient build to run now.

If anything in pve, Druid may form a unique archetype that is a DPS that is also a burst healer, and then it can run with DPS quick and DPS alac. Because heal/alac is just really unwieldly in every way possible now.

I found a way to pull it off, but in no way is it as accurate or convenient as Druid prepatch:

GW2 New Heal Druid Method post june 27 patch - Twitch

 

Also, they really need to revert Eclipse back into Ancient Seeds. That or greatly buff the condi outputs on Eclipse. The removal of Ancient Seeds hurt DPS Druid too much.

So I've got a question Trevor. Why are you okay with channeling axe 5, but not Convergence? Nothing in melee can trade into it with demo ammy thanks to slow. I watched ur video BTW.

Also, this is the best pure support druid spec. I emplore you to give it a try. You still have solid aoe dmg with Jacaranda and Convergence and great offensive pressure with daze chains 

Edited July 2, 2023 by WhoWantsAHug.3186

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

49 minutes ago, WhoWantsAHug.3186 said:

So I've got a question Trevor. Why are you okay with channeling axe 5, but not Convergence? Nothing in melee can trade into it with demo ammy thanks to slow. I watched ur video BTW.

Also, this is the best pure support druid spec. I emplore you to give it a try. You still have solid aoe dmg with Jacaranda and Convergence and great offensive pressure with daze chains 

Axe 5 is amazing. Between staff 5, axe 5, and turtle bubble, you have 3x elongated anti-projectile fields that cycle routinely for pretty much perpetual anti-projectile, similar to Ele spamming mag aura. That aspect right there, is one of the things I'm finding that allows Support Druid to be viable when set next to an Ele Support, that ability to generate reliable damage mitigation vs. all the projectiles in play.

The Axe 5 also has other important uses for a support that is wanting to stand in the middle of a team fight and hold a node. Needless to say, it has a lot of cleave damage which can be used while covering revives or stomps so projectiles can't get through. Its radius is also nearly the size of a side node or small mid nodes. This is important because it forces players off the node, which is as good as knockback. Since the Druid WILL out-sustain players in a 1v1 in close quarters, with exception for Eles & Bladesworns which are a problem, the Axe 5 forces players to either try to hold the node vs. the Druid and get chewed up in that DPS, or they have to leave the node and give you progress to try and keep up in sustain with you. Then of course it also has resolution buff which significantly dampens the amount of damage you take from condis. Then with the Axe 5, comes Axe 4, which is really strong for pulling multiple opponents off of a stomp or revive. Also, you can smoke field in the middle of the node and whirl in it for a ton of blinding bolts, which actually is decent extra damage mitigation.

If you're looking to be a fat bunker and actually wade into the middle of team fights and lord the node with a hold, I find the Axe Off-hand is much much stronger for this than the Warhorn.

But see, that's just the power variant. I have a second build that is condi based that uses axe/torch-staff, which is better in certain situations when there isn't so much projectile to worry about and opponents are weaker to condis. The torch 5 serves that same kind of purpose for covering an entire node with dangerous pulse damage, that forces opponents to either stand in it and take damage while holding, or to get off the node if they want to keep up in sustain with the Druid.

Also, one thing you should look into with your build, which I found interesting when I actually tested the numbers on it. The coefficients on the burst heals like Staff 3, CA Kit 3&4, and all blast heal finishers, are extremely low. The difference between wearing Avatar or Demolisher as example, the Avatar +500 is only adding about +10% more heal factor to those burst heals. I was finding during play testing that having the +500 toughness and extra DPS threat from Demolisher to force opponents into defensive stature rather than allowing them to full offense a healer, is actually worth more healing than Avatar. When you are contributing more offensive pressure in general and are just tankier, it gives the Druid a lot more room to actually coexist inside of damage pools to be able to use its heals, without needing to dodgey dodge and get away for reposition. This is another aspect I found that seems to be really important for being able to have a support that can stand on a node and worry more about its party than itself.

About those low coefficients, having Demo + Transference is more heal than having Avatar with no transference, to put things into perspective. So with Lingering Light +20% an transference sigils, that's really all the heal you need. Trying to aim at the +500 heal for +10% more heals, is just kind of moot. Go test it out, you'll see what I mean.

[Newholiday.8103]

1 hour ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Also, one thing you should look into with your build, which I found interesting when I actually tested the numbers on it. The coefficients on the burst heals like Staff 3, CA Kit 3&4, and all blast heal finishers, are extremely low. The difference between wearing Avatar or Demolisher as example, the Avatar +500 is only adding about +10% more heal factor to those burst heals.

Kinda wondering if this also applies to other support builds.  Anyone try running support tempest without avatar/sage?