Will Relics invalidate legendary runes? [Merged]

[BlaqueFyre.5678]

4 minutes ago, Swoo.5079 said:

(1): +25 Toughness

(2): +35  Healing Power

(3): +50 Toughness

(4): Gain a 20% damage reduction while reviving an ally.

(5): +100  Toughness

(6):

 

See no bonus. Many runes only have wild card bonus.

Because wild card bonus is the function of the 6th bonus. That a few offer some stats in addition is irrelevant.

No superior rune has less than 6 bonuses and the 6th bonus is going to be a stat bonus… smh there’s still going to be 6 bonuses. Just because you refuse to accurately show what the devs stated in your “example” doesn’t make it true

[idpersona.3810]

You all have so much patience. I would have (and did) walked away by this point. I don't think there's much point in arguing the basics now. Either they won't see it or are purposely trolling. Anet clearly sees the issue and we may or may not be happy with whatever they come up with. Only waiting will tell.

Edited July 10, 2023 by idpersona.3810
edit: changed a pronoun

[Shadowmoon.7986]

15 minutes ago, Swoo.5079 said:

So the superior rune of Mercy

(1): +25 Toughness

(2): +35 Healing Power

(3): +50 Toughness

(4): Gain a 20% damage reduction while reviving an ally.

(5): +100  Toughness

(6): Revive allies 20% faster and with 30% more health.

 

What about the superior rune of the Scholar?

 

(1): +25 Power

(2): +35 Ferocity

(3): +50  Power

(4): +65  Ferocity

(5): +100 Power

(6): +125  Ferocity; increase strike damage by 5% while your health is above 90%.

 

Mercy will become

(1): +25 Toughness

(2): +35 Healing Power

(3): +50 Toughness

(4):  + 65 Healing power

(5): +100  Toughness

(6):  + 125 healing power

 

 

Anything that is not stats  are being moved to relics. 

And their example for the theif relic does not match with the current theif rune. So until there is a list of relic we do not know what effects will exist.

[Swoo.5079]

2 minutes ago, Shadowmoon.7986 said:

Mercy will become

(1): +25 Toughness

(2): +35 Healing Power

(3): +50 Toughness

(4):  + 65 Healing power

(5): +100  Toughness

(6):  + 125 healing power

 

 

Anything that is not stats  are being moved to relics. 

And their example for the theif relic does not match with the current theif rune. So until there is a list of relic we do not know what effects will exist.

I'm aware.

I'm also aware that 6 runes + relic will be stronger than 6 runes now, since you can uncouple the bonus from the stats, since the bonus could be so strong that you would take useless stats, making the set bonus the main benefit from Runes.

[BlaqueFyre.5678]

1 minute ago, Swoo.5079 said:

I'm aware.

I'm also aware that 6 runes + relic will be stronger than 6 runes now, since you can uncouple the bonus from the stats, since the bonus could be so strong that you would take useless stats, making the set bonus the main benefit from Runes.

So you admit you’re making arguments in bad faith to misrepresent the situation. So to clarify before change we have 6 total bonuses and after we will have 6 total bonuses from Runes

[Swoo.5079]

13 minutes ago, BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

So you admit you’re making arguments in bad faith to misrepresent the situation. So to clarify before change we have 6 total bonuses and after we will have 6 total bonuses from Runes

Having a McLaren F1, a Ferrari LaFerrari, a Porsche Spyder, a Regera, a SF90 and a Chiron Super Sport is the same as having a Fiat 500, a Toyota Aygo, a Kia Picanto, a Dacia Sandero, a Citroen C3 and a Suzuki Ignis.

6 cars are 6 cars.

6 bonuses are 6 bonuses.

🤔

[Shadowmoon.7986]

I do not think the relic +6 rune will be any stronger than the current 6 rune. The example of relic of the theif was capped at 5% damage, same as current scholars bonus. Dps wise i doubt we will see any bonuses above 5% unless it has difficult requirements.

In the end of the day, this will be a depowering of most players, but you gain more flexibility. The issue with legendary rune owners is their is a straight depowering because they already had thr flexibility.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

On 7/7/2023 at 5:17 PM, Rubi Bayer.8493 said:

Hello everyone, we have been following this conversation and continuing to read your feedback since my last post, and I'm here to give you another quick update. Like other major elements of the expansion, we’re planning on providing more information on relics before launch. For relics specifically, we’re working to get that blog ready for publish on July 18—and because I know you’re wondering, that timeline is so we can write it, review it for accuracy, edit it, and translate it into all supported languages.

We know that the legendary rune compensation is of great interest to you, and we'll be sharing more of our plans about that in the blog post. While that's still coming, I want to clarify a bit about my note on compensation. This will not be an unrelated item; it’s going to be part of the relics system. We’ll have more details in that upcoming blog post.

Finally, I want to thank you all for continuing to have this conversation and share your feedback with us. It’s been helpful and we all appreciate it.

Rubi, thank you so much for the update. I am heartened by the fact that this compensation will be a part of the relic system, but I want to reiterate that unless it is essentially a 'legendary relic' equivalent then you all will have broken a fundamental promise about gear in GW2. I am excited for this new system and cannot wait to try it out, but at the same time, as a legendary rune set holder, I do not want to lose the functionality that I currently have. 

[BlaqueFyre.5678]

4 minutes ago, Swoo.5079 said:

Having a McLaren F1, a Ferrari LaFerrari, a Porsche Spyder, a Regera, a SF90 and a Chiron Super Sport is the same as having a Fiat 500, a Toyota Aygo, a Kia Picanto, a Dacia Sandero, a Citroen C3 and a Suzuki Ignis.

6 cars are 6 cars.

6 bonuses are 6 bonuses.

🤔

Yeah they all perform the same function of driving, some just cost more than others.

and yes 6 bonuses are 6 bonuses, but you were trying to claim that there won’t be 6 bonuses after change and that there was more than 6 bonuses prior … which there wasn’t.  Even in Anet’s own words there was only 6 bonuses on Superior/Legendary Runes
 

Edited July 10, 2023 by BlaqueFyre.5678

[Swoo.5079]

4 minutes ago, BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

Yeah they all perform the same function of driving, some just cost more than others.

and yes 6 bonuses are 6 bonuses, but you were trying to claim that there won’t be 6 bonuses after change and that there was more than 6 bonuses prior … which there wasn’t.  Even in Anet’s own words there was only 6 bonuses on Superior/Legendary Runes
 

Some runes have more than 6 bonuses as you yourself said "!25% speed and boons" - that is 2.

The special bonus is the most important aspect of a rune and it is lost.

And the function of a supercar is not driving.

 

Edited July 10, 2023 by Swoo.5079

[BlaqueFyre.5678]

Just now, Swoo.5079 said:

Some runes have more than 6 bonuses as you yourself said "!25% speed and boons" - that is 2.

The special bonus is the most important aspect of a rune and it is lost.

 

No I never said they had more effects, again your example was a very poor example to try to back your “argument” by saying two clearly different bonuses were clearly different because they provided different effects ie one was shocking aura and the other was boons, clearly reading comprehension is lacking for some people.

and Anet stated all Superior Runes provide 6 bonus again their words. 
 

someone’s lack of reading comprehension and maths skills doesn’t mean your claim of them having more than 6 bonuses is correct

[Swoo.5079]

34 minutes ago, BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

No I never said they had more effects, again your example was a very poor example to try to back your “argument” by saying two clearly different bonuses were clearly different because they provided different effects ie one was shocking aura and the other was boons, clearly reading comprehension is lacking for some people.

and Anet stated all Superior Runes provide 6 bonus again their words. 
 

someone’s lack of reading comprehension and maths skills doesn’t mean your claim of them having more than 6 bonuses is correct

Again 25% movement speed increase on both runes.

One gives boons, the other gives shocking aura

So one of the effects is the same the other is different.

25% movement and boons.

25% movement and shocking aura

Two. If it is only one bonus/effect those runes are the same.

Edited July 10, 2023 by Swoo.5079

[Pifil.5193]

3 hours ago, Shadowmoon.7986 said:

Mercy will become

(1): +25 Toughness

(2): +35 Healing Power

(3): +50 Toughness

(4):  + 65 Healing power

(5): +100  Toughness

(6):  + 125 healing power

 

 

Anything that is not stats  are being moved to relics. 

And their example for the theif relic does not match with the current theif rune. So until there is a list of relic we do not know what effects will exist.

If that's so then I'm starting to think this Relic system is a terrible idea that will do very little good for the game. It looks like it'll be power creep, making Runes so very boring and we're going to be losing a lot of build customization flexibility to gain very little. The meta will still probably have the current Rune and matching Relic in 90+% of the cases people are just going to take the Rune bonus that best matches their armor and cram on whatever Relic does the most damage/healing/whatever especially in PvE.

Quote

With the first release on August 22, the sixth tier of each rune set will instead complete the stat bonuses associated with that rune set, and the additional special effects or conditional bonuses will be removed entirely.

I mean, effects like "Gain a 20% damage reduction while reviving an ally." being lost is a huge shame. I can't imagine that the Relic of Mercy will become:

"Gain a 20% damage reduction while reviving an ally. Revive allies 20% faster and with 30% more health".

As before this change those bonuses were considered good enough to account for a tier 4 and a tier 6 bonus and the thief Relic is going to become a terrible 1-5% strike damage bonus. What happens to Krait rune? No more +20% bleeding duration? Will that just be expertise?

 

[idpersona.3810]

6 minutes ago, Pifil.5193 said:

If that's so then I'm starting to think this Relic system is a terrible idea that will do very little good for the game. It looks like it'll be power creep, making Runes so very boring and we're going to be losing a lot of build customization flexibility to gain very little. The meta will still probably have the current Rune and matching Relic in 90+% of the cases people are just going to take the Rune bonus that best matches their armor and cram on whatever Relic does the most damage/healing/whatever especially in PvE.

I mean, effects like "Gain a 20% damage reduction while reviving an ally." being lost is a huge shame. I can't imagine that the Relic of Mercy will become:

"Gain a 20% damage reduction while reviving an ally. Revive allies 20% faster and with 30% more health".

As before this change those bonuses were considered good enough to account for a tier 4 and a tier 6 bonus and the thief Relic is going to become a terrible 1-5% strike damage bonus. What happens to Krait rune? No more +20% bleeding duration? Will that just be expertise?

 

For how some of the runes get converted, we will just need to wait and see.
This will result in a bit of power creep, that much is certain (and expected, I think). And yes, lots of players won't actually be making meaningful decisions. They're just going to copy whatever is supposed to be BiS (for runes and relics) for their build and go from there.

[Wolfyno.2704]

On 7/10/2023 at 12:41 AM, BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

Except runes will still have 6 effects, and the functions of legendary runes is switching the runes at anytime the runes aren’t just the 6th effect like people are making them out to be, you still never have to grind or get any new rune stats from new content. 
 

this is them just rebalancing runes, if they removed berserker stats from the game Legendary Armors and Weapons aren’t losing functionality 

You are focusing too much on semantics and glossing over the points being presented. 

This is not a case of "Potato, potahto": before relics we can swap runes, and after relic patch, we will  be able to swap runes. 

The Legendry's rune functionality  is to freely swap between runes, including their 6th set effects as they are now, both rune revision and removal of the 6th rune effect, as it is now, are the two side of the same coin = a hard nerf to runes of which players are complaining, rightfully so, about.

And honestly, it is a bit shameless to call it a rebalance. All they are doing is remove effect from ITEM A, to give it to ITEM B and asks of us to grind for it, for few weeks, months, or years,  just to recover that flexibility and go back to our starting point.

To be precise:

Functionality of the legendary runes NOW = swapping to any rune set, INCLUDING the 6th effect and NO, runes stat swapping is only part of that, the effect swapping is the other part ... and biggest part actually.

[DeathPanel.8362]

1 hour ago, Wolfyno.2704 said:

The Legendry's rune functionality  is to freely swap between runes, including their 6th set effects as they are now, both rune revision and removal of the 6th rune effect, as it is now, are the two side of the same coin = a hard nerf to runes of which players are complaining, rightfully so, about.

ANET never promised Rune stats and effects are set in stone and won't ever be changed.  Legendary Runes allow for swapping to any rune set at will and it will remain that way.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

Looks like we need a throwback to what Horizontal gear progression is and why it matters that Anet stated that this is such a game in light of the potential changes:https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/what-is-horizontal-progression

[BlaqueFyre.5678]

4 hours ago, Swoo.5079 said:

Again 25% movement speed increase on both runes.

One gives boons, the other gives shocking aura

So one of the effects is the same the other is different.

25% movement and boons.

25% movement and shocking aura

Two. If it is only one bonus/effect those runes are the same.

Clearly you don’t understand the meaning of the word “same” those bonuses can never be the same since one provides shocking aura and one provides boons… 

also if you’re trying to compare them because one has a period and one has a semi colon after the 25% movement speed they both provide 25% movement speed at all times and each rune still only has 6 bonuses and guess what after the change they will still have only 6 bonuses… 

[Linken.6345]

20 minutes ago, BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

Clearly you don’t understand the meaning of the word “same” those bonuses can never be the same since one provides shocking aura and one provides boons… 

also if you’re trying to compare them because one has a period and one has a semi colon after the 25% movement speed they both provide 25% movement speed at all times and each rune still only has 6 bonuses and guess what after the change they will still have only 6 bonuses… 

Nice its good that you see it now.

one rune have 5 stats, 6th effect 25% movement speed and 7th effect boons.

the other got 5 stats 6th effect 25% movement speed and 7th shocking aura.

So some runes will lose effects since 2 things will be removed and replaced by 1 thing.

[BlaqueFyre.5678]

7 minutes ago, Linken.6345 said:

Nice its good that you see it now.

one rune have 5 stats, 6th effect 25% movement speed and 7th effect boons.

the other got 5 stats 6th effect 25% movement speed and 7th shocking aura.

So some runes will lose effects since 2 things will be removed and replaced by 1 thing.

No, there’s only 6 bonuses the 6th bonus is all packaged as one Anet even said so, there are 6 total bonuses and after there will be 6 total bonuses, there aren’t 7 bonuses on any runes you can separate out bonuses that are clearly stated by Anet in their post as one 6th bonus. 
 

those are clearly 2 different bonuses between the examples Swoo tried to use but failed, one is 25% and shocking aura and one is 25% and boons  each of which falls under the 6th bonus per Anet.

Edited July 11, 2023 by BlaqueFyre.5678

[Linken.6345]

1 hour ago, BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

No, there’s only 6 bonuses the 6th bonus is all packaged as one Anet even said so, there are 6 total bonuses and after there will be 6 total bonuses, there aren’t 7 bonuses on any runes you can separate out bonuses that are clearly stated by Anet in their post as one 6th bonus. 
 

those are clearly 2 different bonuses between the examples Swoo tried to use but failed, one is 25% and shocking aura and one is 25% and boons  each of which falls under the 6th bonus per Anet.

Clearly you did not read the blogpost since they clearly said there are two. right here.

So yes there are two build components in the sixth tier of runes and legendary runes are losing 1 of them with this change.

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/combat-in-guild-wars-2-secrets-of-the-obscure/

The wild card sixth tier arbitrarily linked two build components to a single choice. Keeping with the theme of our combat updates for the expansion, we’re splitting those into two separate choices to give players more meaningful control. 

Edit

You know now when I think about it they could have just made it so you chose the two different things in the 6th rune slot there was no need for a relic slot at all.

Edited July 11, 2023 by Linken.6345

[EphemeralWallaby.7643]

3 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Looks like we need a throwback to what Horizontal gear progression is and why it matters that Anet stated that this is such a game in light of the potential changes:https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/what-is-horizontal-progression

After reading that a couple of times, I think I understand where the argument relics are vertical progression comes from.  However, I disagree with that conclusion... at least in that as I understand them runes+relic will be no more a vertical progression than the current runes-only system is.  Currently at lvl 60+ a new player with their first character can slot superior runes, with some types gated behind expansions among other things, and players are free to chase the myriad of runes that aren't gated to them.  The runes+relic system sounds like it functions the same (quote from announcement: "Many of the relics that are available to players regardless of expansion ownership...").  If relics were only available to those purchasing soto and future expacs, I'd agree with them being called vertical progression, but that's not the case (even if relics wind up requiring lvl 80 to slot).  Obvs peeps disagree, but to me it's more a (needed and well-intentioned) revamp of a problematic rune system.

(Oh, fwiw I made all my legendary runes last weekend, and I'm still looking forward to the relics change.)

~EpWa

P.S. /fireaura

Edited July 11, 2023 by EphemeralWallaby.7643

[Kalendil Istarion.4103]

I posted my worries some days ago and, after reading the diferent topics here and in reddit, I wonder how the relic system is going to be.

Is the relic system going to be a collection of items like current infusions and runes? So people with different characters and equip tabs (I know people with about 40 characters) is going to be compensate with a one-relic-box? Or is it a box per character at least? Do we need several relics in our equips to mix and match the different builds occuping inventory space?

Is it going to be a legendary relic? I sadly assume that it's not going to be a legendary relic in September 22nd. Is the legendary armory going to be expanded as it should be?

Is the relic system an account-system with unlocks that one you own the relic you can equip on every character? As it could be the jade bot.

Is the relic systema a character-system with unlocks that one you own the relic you can equip on every tab you want and it doesn't take any space?

I will only happy if it is going to be a legendary relic, preferablely if owners of 6-7 runes get it as soon as possible and free, or if it is going to be an account-base system with permanent unlocks (without inventory space) as it should have been the jade bot at least.

Until we know how the system works, we can't really discuss properly.

[Jhule.7230]

They could of just condensed all the stat numbers down to 5 of the legendary runes and made the sixth just a selectable special bonus instead of writing code that has no real value apart from extracting more money for the same functionality. That way you could of had two special bonus effects one for the head and one for the aqua-breather because you all know underwater combat is totally different to on land. It's looking like a total con job if you ask me and a carrot to those that cannot see the illogical thought process of it.

Edited July 11, 2023 by skillze.7689

[Gehenna.3625]

13 hours ago, Shadowmoon.7986 said:

I do not think the relic +6 rune will be any stronger than the current 6 rune. The example of relic of the theif was capped at 5% damage, same as current scholars bonus. Dps wise i doubt we will see any bonuses above 5% unless it has difficult requirements.

In the end of the day, this will be a depowering of most players, but you gain more flexibility. The issue with legendary rune owners is their is a straight depowering because they already had thr flexibility.

I think it will depend on the build.

Take the DH Trapper build. It uses trapper runes because of the special bonus. But the stats are crap for DH because they are condi stats and DH has traps based on power. With this expansion I will be able to get that bonus and pick the stats that are appropriate to my build. So in that case it's actually more powerful.