Rework LFG tool

[Linken.6345]

1 hour ago, Kozumi.5816 said:

Why else would you be against improving something?

Because they think its pretty accessible (hence it dont need changing) its right there in the post if you bother to read.

[vares.8457]

11 hours ago, Kozumi.5816 said:

Why else would you be against improving something?

Read my post again, you even quoted it. I’m sure you’ll figure it out. 
The LFG tool works just fine, there is absolutely no reason to change anything. It would be a waste of time and resources. 
If it ain’t broken, don’t fix it 

Edited July 19, 2023 by vares.8457

[Zohane.7208]

11 hours ago, Kozumi.5816 said:

Why else would you be against improving something?

I certainly wouldn't oppose improvements to the lfg - it's just that the proposed change doesn't seem like an improvement to me so that's why I don't want it.

[TheNurgle.4825]

9 hours ago, vares.8457 said:

The LFG tool works just fine, there is absolutely no reason to change anything. It would be a waste of time and resources.

How do you use LFG for multiple "instances" at same time?

[TheNurgle.4825]

On 7/18/2023 at 6:25 PM, Linken.6345 said:

Hand kite deimos, pusher desmina, greens/kite Dhuum do I need to give more?

Please explain to us what hand kite or kite in general do? Also for desmina is pusher really intented desing for the fight? Yes more would be good since you kind of give only one. If there is a lot, then it is easy to give 5+. Also are you telling me that kite is special only for GW2 and no other MMO has it with "normal! LFG tool?

On 7/18/2023 at 6:41 PM, Zohane.7208 said:

To add to Linken's (already excellent) list: red and green tanks on OLC, mech kite on KO. The list really goes on, and with each new strike it's likely to add more.

I wrote specialty roles and you write tanks and kite. That kind of make no sense.

[Sobx.1758]

17 minutes ago, TheNurgle.4825 said:

Please explain to us what hand kite or kite in general do? Also for desmina is pusher really intented desing for the fight? Yes more would be good since you kind of give only one. If there is a lot, then it is easy to give 5+. Also are you telling me that kite is special only for GW2 and no other MMO has it with "normal! LFG tool?

I wrote specialty roles and you write tanks and kite. That kind of make no sense.

Ok, so you simply don't understand what you're talking about here, right? You asked for people to tell you what are the specialty roles, people listed specialty roles and you either ask them "what they do" (what difference does that make in the context of this thread and your previous request?) or dismiss their answer because -apparently, according to you- "these are not specialty roles"... except it looks like you don't know what they do, so how are you able to dismiss them? Because of the naming you don't understand? Come on... 🤦‍♂️
If you think no specialty roles are needed then why aren't you launching all those lfg squads with the roles you deem as enough? What's the issue here?

Some limited role queue could maybe work (tank/dps/qdps/adps/qheal/aheal?) if it was just another tool for the commander, where they can kick people being out of roles anyways. But if that's what it would be, clicking "join squad" in current lfg is basically just as easy.
The issue here is that at least some people requesting that automated queue on this forum want to hold other players hostage in no-commie squads. And in that way it just won't work.

 

On 7/18/2023 at 5:27 AM, Kozumi.5816 said:

The reason there are people so against the LFG tool being reworked is because they benefit from it via their boosting services and do not want it to be more accessible to clear the content on their own.

Well... false.

Edited July 19, 2023 by Sobx.1758

[Linken.6345]

So no wonder people think auto que lfg works they dont even know about the reasons we tell them that it wont work.

[Markodius.4076]

14 hours ago, TheNurgle.4825 said:

Please explain to us what hand kite or kite in general do?

Watch video for deimos if you never do it. Hand kite whole fight do nothing, his role just to catch up only one mechanic of boss. Thanks to this, the group does not have to worry about these mechanics and can easily beat the boss.
and hand kite often do nothing, no heal, no boons

or another example. You're looking for a heal on Deimos CM. You'd like to get a guard that can give van aegis, but instead you get someone who can't give aegis.

ore one more example for q1, you wanna skip jump puzzle and LF mesmer with portal

and there can be a lot of options, depending on how the RL wants to kill the boss and what kind of class composition it should have.

Edited July 20, 2023 by Markodius.4076

[IAmNotMatthew.1058]

13 hours ago, Linken.6345 said:

So no wonder people think auto que lfg works they dont even know about the reasons we tell them that it wont work.

Way too many people think just because we have DPS, healers and tanking in GW2 it's the same as WoW. 

[Passerbye.6291]

I'm completely fine with the way LFG works, also, keep in mind that what you're asking for is not an LFG, it is an automated matchmaker. I'd much rather weed out the people who can't even read or understand what is asked of them by using the current LFG tool. 
For people who say this mechanic exists in many games, yes it does, people are rarely happy with it.
Take ESO for instance, while the game is easy and you can easily dps tank and heal at the same time in dungeons, well you could when I played it anyway, there were constant complaints about people queing up as tank or heal and then just playing dps instead, because tanks and healers being rarer, they'd get instant ques.
Not everything needs to be dumbed down, and people misusing the LFG to list training groups in experienced etc. is not the tool's problem, it is default human stupidity in play. 

Edited July 21, 2023 by Passerbye.6291

[TheNurgle.4825]

On 7/19/2023 at 9:23 PM, Sobx.1758 said:

Ok, so you simply don't understand what you're talking about here, right? You asked for people to tell you what are the specialty roles, people listed specialty roles and you either ask them "what they do" (what difference does that make in the context of this thread and your previous request?) or dismiss their answer because -apparently, according to you- "these are not specialty roles"... except it looks like you don't know what they do, so how are you able to dismiss them? Because of the naming you don't understand? Come on... 🤦‍♂️
If you think no specialty roles are needed then why aren't you launching all those lfg squads with the roles you deem as enough? What's the issue here?

On 7/20/2023 at 12:08 PM, Markodius.4076 said:

Watch video for deimos if you never do it. Hand kite whole fight do nothing, his role just to catch up only one mechanic of boss. Thanks to this, the group does not have to worry about these mechanics and can easily beat the boss.
and hand kite often do nothing, no heal, no boons

or another example. You're looking for a heal on Deimos CM. You'd like to get a guard that can give van aegis, but instead you get someone who can't give aegis.

ore one more example for q1, you wanna skip jump puzzle and LF mesmer with portal

and there can be a lot of options, depending on how the RL wants to kill the boss and what kind of class composition it should have.

I understand it and that is why it is sad. I wanted to ppl write what special roles and I got pusher and hand kite so only two. As I know what hand kite do is reason why I asked same for pusher. You write that hand kite often do nothing so you actually do not need it as "role" in LFG group or do you? It is only about players knowledge. Issue with guard and aegis is bad game design and we all know it.

Skip jumping puzzle another great example so you have game design and players find way to to cheese it so yea.

 

I understand that most ppl do not want any change since they get used to bad system and other just leave. Imagine that ANET actually have enough resources to fix all "exploits" how to skip stuff which was not original intention of devs.

[Allori.7149]

This game deserves a revamp of the entire UI, to be fair. 

[Sobx.1758]

1 hour ago, TheNurgle.4825 said:

I understand that most ppl do not want any change

Nope, that's not it. I understand that saying what amounts to "you don't want this change, so it means you don't want any change" is convenient for you, but it's a false claim. I also wrote this:

On 7/19/2023 at 9:23 PM, Sobx.1758 said:

Some limited role queue could maybe work (tank/dps/qdps/adps/qheal/aheal?) if it was just another tool for the commander, where they can kick people being out of roles anyways. But if that's what it would be, clicking "join squad" in current lfg is basically just as easy.
The issue here is that at least some people requesting that automated queue on this forum want to hold other players hostage in no-commie squads. And in that way it just won't work.

But for some reason you simply completely avoided as much as quoting it, let alone addressing it in any way.

 

You also didn't answer the question you actually quoted there:

On 7/19/2023 at 9:23 PM, Sobx.1758 said:

If you think no specialty roles are needed then why aren't you launching all those lfg squads with the roles you deem as enough? What's the issue here?

If you think those base roles are all you ever need then you can keep copy-pasting your group descriptions whenever you make a squad while adding which encounter you're going for. Somehow -just a hunch- I'm not sure this is what you're doing.

Edited July 25, 2023 by Sobx.1758

[Zohane.7208]

1 hour ago, TheNurgle.4825 said:

I understand it and that is why it is sad. I wanted to ppl write what special roles and I got pusher and hand kite so only two. As I know what hand kite do is reason why I asked same for pusher. You write that hand kite often do nothing so you actually do not need it as "role" in LFG group or do you? It is only about players knowledge. Issue with guard and aegis is bad game design and we all know it.

Skip jumping puzzle another great example so you have game design and players find way to to cheese it so yea.

 

I understand that most ppl do not want any change since they get used to bad system and other just leave. Imagine that ANET actually have enough resources to fix all "exploits" how to skip stuff which was not original intention of devs.

"Issue with guard and aegis is bad game design and we all know it." - Uhm, no we don't all know it...

Also, hand kite is a very specialized role which requires:1) a special build, 2) special knowledge, and 3) practice. If you think anyone can do hand kite such that it doesn't require mention in the lfg, then by all means try it with a random and let us know how it went. I'm pretty sure it'll not go well.

As for the "people do not want change" bit, that's pure nonsense; people in general just don't want a change that would be for the worse, which many of us here think the proposed change would be.

[The Boz.2038]

14 hours ago, TheNurgle.4825 said:

I understand it and that is why it is sad. I wanted to ppl write what special roles and I got pusher and hand kite so only two. As I know what hand kite do is reason why I asked same for pusher. You write that hand kite often do nothing so you actually do not need it as "role" in LFG group or do you? It is only about players knowledge. Issue with guard and aegis is bad game design and we all know it.

Skip jumping puzzle another great example so you have game design and players find way to to cheese it so yea.

 

I understand that most ppl do not want any change since they get used to bad system and other just leave. Imagine that ANET actually have enough resources to fix all "exploits" how to skip stuff which was not original intention of devs.

As a rule, if you have no idea how a certain type of content works, what roles are used in it, and how the LFG system operates at all, you really shouldn't try and "improve" the LFG system for that content.

[IAmNotMatthew.1058]

14 hours ago, TheNurgle.4825 said:

I understand it and that is why it is sad. I wanted to ppl write what special roles and I got pusher and hand kite so only two. As I know what hand kite do is reason why I asked same for pusher. You write that hand kite often do nothing so you actually do not need it as "role" in LFG group or do you? It is only about players knowledge. Issue with guard and aegis is bad game design and we all know it.

Skip jumping puzzle another great example so you have game design and players find way to to cheese it so yea.

 

I understand that most ppl do not want any change since they get used to bad system and other just leave. Imagine that ANET actually have enough resources to fix all "exploits" how to skip stuff which was not original intention of devs.

HK, Desmina push, Dhuum greens, Dhuum kite, Sword/Shield on CA, Largos kite for the boon stealy twin, lamp, wyvern tank, Q2 Pylon. 
There's more smaller roles, like cannons on Sab, mushroom on Sloth, mortar on Trio, reflect on Matthias, KC push, Dispel/Protect on MO, for some groups BK on Deimos, stun on the Eyes(this even benefits from a certain build), pillars on Adina, the person killing the trash from 40% on Sabir.

Strap this onto the regular squad setup of 2x(3DPS,1boonDPS,1Heal) that comes with it's own twists where you need to match what boonDPS goes with which healer and you get yourself a Cake of Headache when it comes to trying to make an auto LFG.

This isn't WoW where I grab my Priest, jump into LFR, select Heal and DPS and the game will throw me into one of the roles, it's not that simple.

[Markodius.4076]

17 hours ago, TheNurgle.4825 said:

I understand it and that is why it is sad. I wanted to ppl write what special roles and I got pusher and hand kite so only two. As I know what hand kite do is reason why I asked same for pusher. You write that hand kite often do nothing so you actually do not need it as "role" in LFG group or do you? It is only about players knowledge. Issue with guard and aegis is bad game design and we all know it.

 

I remember how in world of warcraft in one of the raids we specifically took demon hunters to skip the mechanics because they have long distance jumps and it was a mythic raid, it was very important there and made killing the boss very easy) Also probably bad game design  😁

 

or any other boss where you take a certain number of specific classes because it makes it very easy to pass)

It's the same here in GW2. There are specific tasks, and there are classes that are perfect for them. This doesn't mean that it can't be done by someone else, but why should we waste time having someone else do it and using different tactics than when we have something that works and works well. It's not about bad game design, it's about how players solve the problems they have.

And by the way, you were talking about guards, aegis can give not only guards) we don't have any guards in our group on Deimos and we kill him every week in CM, where you need aegis to survive the boss mechanics.

Edited July 26, 2023 by Markodius.4076

[TheNurgle.4825]

On 7/26/2023 at 11:33 AM, IAmNotMatthew.1058 said:

HK, Desmina push, Dhuum greens, Dhuum kite, Sword/Shield on CA, Largos kite for the boon stealy twin, lamp, wyvern tank, Q2 Pylon. 
There's more smaller roles, like cannons on Sab, mushroom on Sloth, mortar on Trio, reflect on Matthias, KC push, Dispel/Protect on MO, for some groups BK on Deimos, stun on the Eyes(this even benefits from a certain build), pillars on Adina, the person killing the trash from 40% on Sabir.

Strap this onto the regular squad setup of 2x(3DPS,1boonDPS,1Heal) that comes with it's own twists where you need to match what boonDPS goes with which healer and you get yourself a Cake of Headache when it comes to trying to make an auto LFG.

This isn't WoW where I grab my Priest, jump into LFR, select Heal and DPS and the game will throw me into one of the roles, it's not that simple.

So if I go to some guides like snowcrows or hardstuck, then I found all "roles" you mentioned? Like here https://hardstuck.gg/gw2/guides/raids/

You actually do not describe roles for LFG tool, but "roles" for boss mechanic which can be played by almost any class/role. None of that is specific to GW2 raids like many other MMOs has autoamted LFG tool for raids and you do have roles for mechanics and it work so why it would not work in GW2.

Edited August 11, 2023 by TheNurgle.4825
Missclick and posted only "S"

[The Boz.2038]

16 minutes ago, TheNurgle.4825 said:

You actually do not describe roles for LFG tool, but "roles" for boss mechanic which can be played by almost any class/role.

You trying real hard to misunderstand the word "role" there, chief.

[Cyninja.2954]

17 hours ago, TheNurgle.4825 said:

So if I go to some guides like snowcrows or hardstuck, then I found all "roles" you mentioned? Like here https://hardstuck.gg/gw2/guides/raids/

You actually do not describe roles for LFG tool, but "roles" for boss mechanic which can be played by almost any class/role. None of that is specific to GW2 raids like many other MMOs has autoamted LFG tool for raids and you do have roles for mechanics and it work so why it would not work in GW2.

and that's why players who lack experience with content should not be making suggestions.

Some of those roles are far easier on specific classes, some are required for success and not having anyone in squad who can perform them is a 100% barrier and finally some require very specific builds. The builds part is what an auto LFG might be able to remedie (not even taking into account specific wings like wing 5, where a high flexibility in roles comes in) the rest, not as much. That's where other games have mechanics in place on heavily simplified content. The content is usually reduced complexity wise to the stage where the only deciding factors are damage and healing, which then get boosted by fail safe mechanisms (not unlike emboldend mode here, yet some fights are still impossible if mechanics can't be done).

If an auto LFG is supposed to increase success rate and improve the experience, having multiple fights where the auto LFG creates parties/squads which are literally incapable of completing the content is useless.

Reminder once again: we have a basic auto LFG for IBS strikes, where almost no specific roles are required and where the figths are already on the very easy side, and still it's completely dead.

So many players always pointing to other MMORPGs, as if they are the sole players who have played those games. It's not that most of us lack experience with auto group finders (and let's not discuss the pros and cons in regards to community, because that is a separat issues), it's that most of us actually understand the issues at hand which differentiate GW2 from those other MMOs and what is needed for success here.

Also the notion that players "benefit" from keeping others out is just hilariously misguided. As if every veteran/successful player of instanced content has some side hussle of selling content. On the contrary, the majority welcomes fresh blood because it's a nuiscance when the pool of available players shrinks at every level of experience.

Edited August 12, 2023 by Cyninja.2954

[IAmNotMatthew.1058]

20 hours ago, TheNurgle.4825 said:

So if I go to some guides like snowcrows or hardstuck, then I found all "roles" you mentioned? Like here https://hardstuck.gg/gw2/guides/raids/

You actually do not describe roles for LFG tool, but "roles" for boss mechanic which can be played by almost any class/role. None of that is specific to GW2 raids like many other MMOs has autoamted LFG tool for raids and you do have roles for mechanics and it work so why it would not work in GW2.

Yes, the smaller roles I mentioned can mostly be played by anyone, that's why I mentioned them as such. Good observation. 

And yes, you can find the specific builds for the roles if you look for them, since both Pylon kite and HK have their own builds. In the guide you linked you can see it even mentions how on the Eyes Druids are better due to Moment of Clarity, which is the main reason why you still often see Druids despite their reign long being over as mainheal. In the same guide you'll see HS provide a build for Q1 kite as well, something I forgot to mention.

If GW2 could have an auto LFG I'd love to know how you'd set it up. Way too often people forget that just because there is tanking and healing in GW2 it's not WoW. 

[Morvran.8265]

On 6/28/2023 at 11:07 AM, TheNurgle.4825 said:

 

1. When group is ready - conditions to create group is ready, then have pop-up window on player screen to get insta teleport to instance similar to PVP matches = I do not need to go to specific area to get in instance, for new ppl that would be huge QoL improvement.
2. Add option to queue as role for example healer, support, dps and option to queue as commander. Of course player can pick one or all options. Based on player's choice some lil icon would be shown next to their name/hp bar in party/squad setup.

That isn't really a rework, more like a completely different new system.

I'm not against automated group finder or role checks, just pointing that out.

I highly doubt they'd ever set roles though. They marketed GW2 as a game that has no trinity or healers, they probably don't want to admit that this isn't true anymore. That's why they let the community sort it out.

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

i don't think we need an automatic matchmaker, just an overhaul to the existing lfg tool to:

- majorly compress down sections (we don't need each open-world map an dungeon in its own area, for example).

- list active but incomplete "hot groups" in three categories: open-world, instanced (dungeon-like) and instanced (raid-like). this would allow players to quickly find a group to join when they're just looking to do literally anything available.

- allow groups to have quick flags like "healer" instead of typing it in, and allowing players to sort those to the top.

 

unfortunately, there's a handful of players on this forum who are against quality of life and would prefer the game be left in the dark ages, so i don't bother arguing about this topic anymore, and this is probably the last time i'll post on it.

Edited August 13, 2023 by SoftFootpaws.9134

[Kozumi.5816]

7 hours ago, SoftFootpaws.9134 said:

unfortunately, there's a handful of players on this forum who are against quality of life and would prefer the game be left in the dark ages, so i don't bother arguing about this topic anymore, and this is probably the last time i'll post on it.

They benefit from being able to clog the LFG list with services.

[Obtena.7952]

On 7/19/2023 at 5:04 AM, vares.8457 said:

Read my post again, you even quoted it. I’m sure you’ll figure it out. 
The LFG tool works just fine, there is absolutely no reason to change anything. It would be a waste of time and resources. 
If it ain’t broken, don’t fix it 

Well, hold on ... we aren't talking about fixing something that is broke. We are talking about taking something that works (and works at a minimum viable product level) and making it better, which is actually important for a tool like LFG in an MMO. There ARE things that would make LFG better, especially now that Anet has implemented a role-based teaming structure. One such scenario is LFG has an option to matchmake players based on the role they are playing automatically ... a VERY far cry from what is currently implemented. 

Edited August 14, 2023 by Obtena.7952