Weaponmaster Training Beta Feedback: Engineer

[The Boz.2038]

2 hours ago, Bomboed.5697 said:

All of that just proves that Engineer itself requires a huge rework.

Well, not *huge*, but... yeah.

[Endaris.1452]

14 hours ago, Bomboed.5697 said:

Add a new effect to Holo's heat mechanic: adds +X% power and condi damage per Y% of Heat. This effect will universally work with any weapon, which will create more build options for Holo.

This exists already and it's called Laser's Edge. Wouldn't take much to just amp the % number.

Except that it's only for strike damage. Sword is not a condi weapon and condi holo is in a good spot already so I see no problem with that.

[Teletric.3821]

As many others have said, there's practically no reason to use sword outside of Holosmith because it relies heavily on the heat mechanic to be optimal. At the same time, though, it's the only weapon that interacts with the heat mechanic and rewards you for engaging with the intended high-risk-high-reward playstyle of Holosmith (for example, variable quickness duration depending on heat level for Sword 3). Other weapon skills should also get amplified or additional effects depending on the heat threshold for the sake of consistency.

I mean, you guys gave Weaver 30 new weapon skills specifically for the Dual Attack mechanic to account for every Attunement + weapon combination — it wasn't just for sword. And every weapon base Warrior could use got a Primal Burst skill for the Berserker elite spec when it was released — it wasn't just torch.

[Bomboed.5697]

1 hour ago, Teletric.3821 said:

As many others have said, there's practically no reason to use sword outside of Holosmith because it relies heavily on the heat mechanic to be optimal. At the same time, though, it's the only weapon that interacts with the heat mechanic and rewards you for engaging with the intended high-risk-high-reward playstyle of Holosmith (for example, variable quickness duration depending on heat level for Sword 3). Other weapon skills should also get amplified or additional effects depending on the heat threshold for the sake of consistency.

I mean, you guys gave Weaver 30 new weapon skills specifically for the Dual Attack mechanic to account for every Attunement + weapon combination — it wasn't just for sword. And every weapon base Warrior could use got a Primal Burst skill for the Berserker elite spec when it was released — it wasn't just torch.

That just proves devs hate Engi. They are eager to spend time and budget into doing extra work for War and Eli, but they refuse to do so for a class with least amount of weapon options. They only thing we get is nerf for everything fun. Scrapper was fun? Boom, no more quickness for PvP, screw you, you don't even deserve to have a real e-spec mechanic! Mech was fun? Boom, get a terrible leash mechanic that punishes you just for playing this spec! You use Kits because you don't have a weapon swap? Boom, we nerf Kits into oblivion, so you don't have either!
And how dare you to ask us to make all weapons to work with Heat and to make Sword viable outside of Holo?! No-no-no, it is too much work!

[Nero.7369]

Sadly engineer weaponmaster is a bit disappointing because they are to similar. I really love to have hammer and mace on all elite specs tho. Sword needs a rework tho to not be heat dependent.

But it doesnt open up much more versatility.

We really need a offhand power weapon. Also a  main hand ranged main hand power weapon would be interesting.

SHORTBOW as another two handed weapon is a really bad pick, because of this. Dual Dagger as throwing weapons would be a better pick imo.
If you stick to the shortbow i at least hope it's acid themed 🙂

Edited June 30, 2023 by Nero.7369

[Limbo.4087]

8 hours ago, Endaris.1452 said:

This exists already and it's called Laser's Edge. Wouldn't take much to just amp the % number.

Except that it's only for strike damage. Sword is not a condi weapon and condi holo is in a good spot already so I see no problem with that.

This only works when holoforge is active, that is, it does not affect the weapon in your hands

[Jerus.4350]

I did a little testing on different weapons.  I was curious where Sword actually stood. Note, this is with a little bit of scuffed beta gear, but it's consistent with each other and that's what counts.  I've also removed AAR trait damage because while the weapons may affect it's proc rate, it's going to be much less of a difference than the isolated attempts suggest. And the last caveat, the Hammer with Thunderclap removed, is just with it mathed out, so it'd be slightly higher if actually done correctly, but this was a slapdash "get an idea" test. 

Weapon Testing
Sword w/Sw2 <50 Heat:	12735
Sword w/Sw2 >50 Heat	15966
Mace w/M3	12066
Hammer w/H2 & Thunderclap	17994
Hammer w/H2 Thunderclap Removed	16195

 

So, from this, sword isn't quite as bad as I thought, but still pretty bad in it's current state.  Mace is worse, so it's still going to be the Power Mainhand of choice, but ugh, not great.  Now, if you're above 50% heat, then we're talking.  That's what I'm hoping can change, can we get the 50-100 heat bonuses baked into the sword? 

 

Leave the 100+ bonuses from ECSU trait as a Holo thing.  Baking in the 50 Heat bonuses would make Sword pretty much in line with Hammer without it's 5 skill, which I think makes sense for a primary only weapon.  I don't think this would be much of an impact for Holo, just makes overheating or forgetting to pre-heat slightly less punishing.

 

Then all we need is a power offhand to go with Sword 😉

[Perceptor.7189]

I'm gonna give this beta a big "meh"

Outside of having the ability to turn ppl in moas while stun with hammer 5 with core engie, having all the weapons unlocked doesn't help that much. Engi it's still 2+ kit dependant, a handfull of utilities are usefull, but the rest are awufull and so on...

As i write this, condi holo still the top dps spec for engi, and having a mace instead of a main hand pistol doesn't solve the nightmare of a piano rotation that is playing it, since 3 kits still the norm for condi engi (and add the dodges), or the lack of complete sinergy that holosmith has.

Hammer on mechanist it's a incoming nerf to the weapon in the near future, because big green robot bad.

And on scrapper, mace make things more easy in the support department, but there's nothing new to add for dps.

I would like to talk about sword, but just a quick check of the previous post say it all.

[The Black Stones.9713]

Hello Anet ,

weapon master training is an insanely good idea, it gives more flavour to the game and more fashion wars . I have so much gratitude to Anet for inventing the ideas. However, this is only good when its done right, otherwise, it would be a waste.

I can see the goal is to give freedom to players to play with different weapons on the specialization that is offered in the game. However, there is an issue with a HOLOSMITH class.

If you notice holosmith is a class that gives bonus damage when the heat is over 50% etc , these bonuses give additional damage to sword . However, i do not see the  heating bonus provided to other weapons such as hammer rifles pistols, or mace.

the above issue actually doesn't reflect Anet's goal to provide "freedom" or more variety gameplay, this will always limit a holosmith to stick with sword for power , hammer and rifle holosmith will be a waste so whats the point of weapon master training where holo hammer or rifle or other weapon  cant have the heating bonus like  sword holo ?

After the expansion, HOLOSMITH unique heat mechanic should translate while weilding other weapons like hammer , rifle , short bow pistol or mace . Thats what we call a good build diversification and balance hence achieving the overall goal of freedom and giving more useable options for players 

I read somewhere Berserker will be able to use Berserker unique skill when using dagger, the same should apply to holosmith to get a heat bonus while wielding other weapons

HOLOSMITH is a class that gives unique benefits while wielding a sword, this benefit needs to translate to other weapons to this is to achieve the build diversity that people can play. 

If the above leads to an Overpowered holosmith then please make the adjustment to the damage and make it balance across the board (you guys have done a good job in balancing the class in the past , surely you can come up with something). However, the heat mechanic on HOLOSMITH needs to translate to all weapons.

the above points need to be applied to other classes too not only to HOLOSMITH. Weapon master training is an insanely good idea but need to be done right.

Edited July 1, 2023 by The Black Stones.9713

[Benevolent.4083]

10 hours ago, Nero.7369 said:

Sadly engineer weaponmaster is a bit disappointing because they are to similar. I really love to have hammer and mace on all elite specs tho. Sword needs a rework tho to not be heat dependent.

But it doesnt open up much more versatility.

We really need a offhand power weapon. Also a  main hand ranged main hand power weapon would be interesting.

SHORTBOW as another two handed weapon is a really bad pick, because of this. Dual Dagger as throwing weapons would be a better pick imo.
If you stick to the shortbow i at least hope it's acid themed 🙂

I think the Shortbow can work if they put real work into it, but what saddens me is other classes with more weapons choices are getting TWO new weapons (Ranger-dual mace, Guardian-dual pistol, Necromancer-dual sword) while Engineer still can't get dual types to match with our small selection of single hand weapons. Kits are heavily outdated and until they get reworked, without a weapon swap, the Engineer really struggles.

Dual dagger could have been a good choice! Or why not Scepter and off-hand sword though?!

But don't say each class will get "a" new weapon and then give 3 classes TWO weapons just because they are dual types. :S

[Handin.4032]

Wasn't sure where to put this, but since I main engi in WvW...

If you ever wonder how little anet thinks about supports, especially when it comes to testing, just realize that for the beta characters, they didn't give any support sigils or food, but gave all the dps stacking sigils, some dps food and utilities. The TP is also disabled. (You also can't seem to use bank to transfer support sigils/food: it just highlights how little anet even thinks of supports when it comes to testing and balance, and why there will probably be really borked things)

Edited July 1, 2023 by Handin.4032

[JUST ME.4175]

Not sure about this, but I created a beta engineer to test the short bow and no short bow was provided.  Not in any of the equipment containers, no where.  

[Jerus.4350]

7 hours ago, Benevolent.4083 said:

I think the Shortbow can work if they put real work into it, but what saddens me is other classes with more weapons choices are getting TWO new weapons (Ranger-dual mace, Guardian-dual pistol, Necromancer-dual sword) while Engineer still can't get dual types to match with our small selection of single hand weapons. Kits are heavily outdated and until they get reworked, without a weapon swap, the Engineer really struggles.

Dual dagger could have been a good choice! Or why not Scepter and off-hand sword though?!

But don't say each class will get "a" new weapon and then give 3 classes TWO weapons just because they are dual types. :S

I was also hoping dual daggers, then we could get a screwdriver as the thematic weapon and I’d be happy.

[Jerus.4350]

2 hours ago, JUST ME.4175 said:

Not sure about this, but I created a beta engineer to test the short bow and no short bow was provided.  Not in any of the equipment containers, no where.  

Shortbow is coming much later (end of the year ish iirc).  This is just a beta for being able to use all the current weapon options on any spec the profession has.

[mov.1246]

First of all thanks for sharing elite weapon across all specs! This is a great addition to the game and opens a lot more play styles for all classes. I am really looking forward to this new xpac!

 

Every thought i had is with instanced PvE in mind. Before i talk about weapons we need to take a look where the strength of every elite spec comes from:

 

Mechanist: strength comes from jade mech

Holosmith: strength comes from photon forge

Scrapper: strength comes from hammer

 

And here we face a balance problem. While Mechanist and Holosmith need its traitlines to perform their strength, scrapper is reliant on hammer and not on the traitline.

 

Hammer is the best weapon when it comes to pure power dps due to high numbers and good scaling. Hammer will probably replace every other weapon of power based builds. But nerfing hammer is not the solution, because nerfing hammer is a direct nerf to scrapper.

 

I already benchmarked pbm hammer holo and omg what a fun! The cooldowns perfectly fit together and it is a very smooth and satisfying gameplay. I was able to reach 38k dps on golem.

 

Lets look into weapons and possbile builds:

 

Hammer:

As i already mentioned, hammer will probably replace every weapon on every power based build. All possible power meta builds listened which most likely will use hammer in the future:

- Holo power DPS (now using sword)

- Mech power DPS (now using rifle)

- Scrapper power DPS (already using hammer)

- Scrapper power quick DPS (already using hammer)

- Mech power alac DPS (now using rifle)

Hammer is just superior to sword and rifle in terms of pure dps, rifle will maybe still be used in fights where its not possbile to stay in melee range all the time.

 

Mace:

Mace is just used as supportive weapon at the moment. There arent builds that use mace as dps variant. But mace could make heal scrapper more common and popular. Builds that likely use mace in the future:

- Heal quick scrapper (now using Hammer or pistol/shield)

- Heal alac mechanist (alreay using mace)

I think there is no problem with mace beeing aviable to all specs. The change to the quickness application on scrapper synergizes very well with mace skill 2.

 

Sword:

I think sword has no use. This weapon is just good when reaching heat bonuses and is pretty bad when on low or no heat. Viability outside of holo isnt there.

 

Conclusion: Power based builds will most likely forced to play hammer. Mace is a good way for supportive builds outside of HAM. Sword will be useless. And condition builds will not change.

 

Additional note for short bow: I am really happy with short bow, and i hope it will be condition based. Every condi build we have is forced to play double pistols. A new condi weapon would give us more flexibility. We got enough power based weapons with xpacs in the past.

Edited July 1, 2023 by mov.1246

[Ovalkvadratcylinder.9365]

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Edited July 2, 2023 by Ovalkvadratcylinder.9365

[August.5934]

When using hammer or anyother weapon in holosmith elite spec, please make it so that all the equiped weapons can access the heat energy of holo smith.

• Hammer skill 2 & 3 should get increased damage per heat level. Please make it so that Hammer skill 2: Electro-Whril Get increased damage per heat level and increased AOE radius per heat level. Hammer skill 5 with higher AOE radius per heat level with increased pulses. Hammer skill 4 granting more barrier per hit.
• Mace skill 2 should get increased higher damage per heat level. Mace skill 3: well, a bigger fist, reduced cooldown and slightly increased damage per heat level sounds very good.
• Rifle Skill 1 (auto attack) should get faster attack speed  per heat level. Rifle skill 2: Massive increased damage, 120° frontal AOE radius increase per heat level. Please make it so that i can feel that 1 BIG BANG with heat wave ripples🤯! Rifle Skill 5: Per heat level: Visually increased AOE with one BIG earth shattering slam on ground and ofcourse please add heat wave ripples💀, Increased landing damage per heat level.
• Sword is perfectly fine as it is, no changes needed on it.

[Kerose.2916]

Overall I think the addition of the weapons to every spec is a positive one but there are a few things that will require adjustments:

Sword: This weapon was designed with holosmith heat in mind. Due to this, sword outside of holosmith feels like half a weapon. This would require either numbers tuning or a full rework on the weapon to remove the reliance of heat. Realistically having heat is a fun mechanic, and it should be tied to holosmith and not to sword. This would mean realistically we should have an inclusion of heat bonuses for hammer pistol rifle and mace. A way to fix sword for other specs outside of holo could have the weapon do its 50 heat bonus by default and lower the bonuses so at 100 and 149 heat for ECUS the damage is the same but sword can be playable outside of holo. IE Sword 2 should shoot 3 blades by default, 4 over 50 heat and 5 over 150. This will let the weapon be mostly the same, but feel good outside of holo. 

Hammer: This weapon is amazing and is my personal favorite on engi, but I do think it will overshadow basically every power weapon in most situations. This is more of a fault of the issues with sword I have said earlier and rifle being a very weak weapon overall. Most engineer builds take grenades, so taking hammer with grenades gives me a ranged option without needing rifle and hammer is objectively a better weapon in nearly every situation over rifle. 

Mace: This weapons actually pretty fun on heal scrapper and I think that will be a good home for it as well. I would like to know if mace 3 is balanced around the mech's automatic followup attack. We have that for other weapons on mech a few patches ago, but the skill feels a little lack luster outside of mech. Its not awful, its just a note

Rifle: I've said before, its fundamentally weak. Its not strong at range as jump shot and blunderbuss need to be close, this makes the weapon a pseudo melee weapon. This will be overshadowed by hammer. 

Pistol: This weapon feels a lot better after the changes over the last few patches, the only thing I would think it needs is just the heat benefits from holo as stated earlier.

 

TLDR:
Rifle needs help
Hammer is amazing
Mace is great
Sword needs a rework to untie its reliance to holo heat
Heat bonuses should be applied to every weapon for holosmith 

 

I look forward to hammersmith in August, I can combine my favorite spec with my 2nd favorite weapon in the game (slightly behind guardian greatsword). Overall I'm happy with everything, with the exception of sword needing help and rifle needing help

[shion.2084]

17 hours ago, August.5934 said:

When using hammer or anyother weapon in holosmith elite spec, please make it so that all the equiped weapons can access the heat energy of holo smith.

• Hammer skill 2 & 3 should get increased damage per heat level. Please make it so that Hammer skill 2: Electro-Whril Get increased damage per heat level and increased AOE radius per heat level. Hammer skill 5 with higher AOE radius per heat level with increased pulses. Hammer skill 4 granting more barrier per hit.
• Mace skill 2 should get increased higher damage per heat level. Mace skill 3: well, a bigger fist, reduced cooldown and slightly increased damage per heat level sounds very good.
• Rifle Skill 1 (auto attack) should get faster attack speed  per heat level. Rifle skill 2: Massive increased damage, 120° frontal AOE radius increase per heat level. Please make it so that i can feel that 1 BIG BANG with heat wave ripples🤯! Rifle Skill 5: Per heat level: Visually increased AOE with one BIG earth shattering slam on ground and ofcourse please add heat wave ripples💀, Increased landing damage per heat level.
• Sword is perfectly fine as it is, no changes needed on it.

No don't do this to hammer.  People would see the damage it generated and nerf base hammer electro whirl thus killing scrapper.

[shion.2084]

Out of interest, what is hammer doing as damage with electro whirl on a Holo coming out of Holo mode? For pvp.    I guess in real combat scenarios your opponent has vuln and you have a very health might stack….

 

because I suspect that a spammable electro whirl that also reflects and has low CD 💿 s all I’m going to be hearing about

[Jerus.4350]

1 hour ago, shion.2084 said:

Out of interest, what is hammer doing as damage with electro whirl on a Holo coming out of Holo mode? For pvp.    I guess in real combat scenarios your opponent has vuln and you have a very health might stack….

 

because I suspect that a spammable electro whirl that also reflects and has low CD 💿 s all I’m going to be hearing about

Talking post overheat from PBM or just Solar Focusing Lens?  Post overheat it’s up to 15% modifier and SFL another 10% if you get it in those 2 Electrowhirl hits and not have it eaten by some pulsing/low damage skill.  Potentially more than Scrapper, but Scrapper also has the 5% from stab/SS/swiftness that holo doesn’t, so I don’t think it’s be that crazy.

[j ray.6208]

I know it's probably not on the table, but with all of these new options, it would be great to allow weapon swapping.

[bambi.6214]

On 6/30/2023 at 11:02 PM, Nero.7369 said:

Sadly engineer weaponmaster is a bit disappointing because they are to similar. I really love to have hammer and mace on all elite specs tho. Sword needs a rework tho to not be heat dependent.

But it doesnt open up much more versatility.

We really need a offhand power weapon. Also a  main hand ranged main hand power weapon would be interesting.

SHORTBOW as another two handed weapon is a really bad pick, because of this. Dual Dagger as throwing weapons would be a better pick imo.
If you stick to the shortbow i at least hope it's acid themed 🙂

It is absolutely correct. We need more one-handed weapon variations - power mainhand, power offhand, for core engi. Introducing weaponmaster with the current weapons available makes little sense. Another 2h weapon won't solve anything, we *need* at least a power off-hand to introduce variation, and power mainhand and offhand would do wonders for build variety.

[Sorasnobody.9350]

Slipping by to drop some findings from my notes. I tend to try everything from a solo-play perspective, but no solo builds will be affected by the new weapons so I went ahead to try a few instanced content builds instead.

Mechanist:

Power Mechanist - Hammer

I really enjoyed this weapon to give Mechanist a potent power dps build. Since the constant adjustments/nerfs to rifle, I feel this has fallen into the tier of a support dps weapon and I wasn't vibing with pure dps power Mechanist. Hammer however gives me something I enjoy. Electro-Whirl works cooldown wise with Shrapnel Grenade so it works the same as the current rifle combo: Blunderbuss > Shrapnel Grenade. It still has good amounts of crowd control and a block so I'm really liking how it is playing.

Power Alacrity Mechanist - Hammer

This plays exactly the same as the build above, but it works just as well. I aren't much of a pure dps player as I like the idea of supporting more so and I really love hammer on engineer so I will be playing this a lot more once it becomes an actual build. The block on hammer 4 is really helpful for certain encounter mechanics. I'm thinking specifically oil kiting on Deimos so I don't need to run Tool Kit anymore. Its a refreshing way to play Mechanist and might help a lot of players with the Mechanical Genius penality as you need to be melee with hammer. They might just notice their mech isn't with them, who knows 😄 Hammer is a nice accessible weapon too as just auto attack chains > Electro Whirl > Thunderclap is a strong rotation so you can play kitless Mechanist and still pump damage.

 

Heal Quickness Scrapper - Mace/shield

My eyes lit up I tell you! I have despised HQScrapper due to it using a condition damage main hand weapon-it felt very weird and off and that alone makes me not enjoy playing it. But it was always that case as there was simply nothing else, but mace is great! It will let you provide regular intervals of barrier, keep up permanent Vigor with Infusion Bomb and make regeneration a whole lot easier. With the new quickness interaction as well, every mace 2 will give quickness as you can easily create combo fields in a pinch with Mortar Kit. I'm honestly super excited to play this build!

 

Issue(s):

It isn't really something I tested on instanced dps builds, but it was something I felt when trying solo build variants. Sword feels a little bland. Don't take my word for this, but I just want to chip in, just incase it is a common thought. It feels rather heavily tied with Holosmith due to it being a lot more effective at different heat thresholds but you don't have that on other elite specs/core. Maybe I'm looking at sword too one-dimensional for PvE end game/open world but it just feels like you'll take Hammer in every situation instead if you're looking for a power replacement, and pistol, sometimes even mace is still going to be the better condition weapon. But as I say, I didn't test it so I could be completely wrong, but I'm just dropping it here in case!

 

I'm very excited to extend my arsenal with an extra quickness healing build and a new-found alacrity dps!

[lorddarkflare.9186]

I think Sword has always been kinda bland, but it has benefitted from being tied to a genuinely engaging class as part of a package.  Now that it is on its own, it cannot stand alone. Sort of the opposite of Hammer. Now that it is free of Scrapper, I have very little reason to ever use that subclass now.

This is actually a challenge for all classes and weapons across the board. At some point, A-Net will need a balance pass for weapons just to make them all work better. I am hoping the reason for this beta was so they can gather info to see how far they need to go. Unlike with Elite Specs, Weapon Master cannot ride on novelty alone, the new weapons have to feel like a marked increase in power for all classes.

Edited July 4, 2023 by lorddarkflare.9186