Mechanist - What is the point of the leash?

[The Boz.2038]

Just now, Passerbye.6291 said:

Are you trying to argue that a change that was literally in patch notes as an intended addition to the classes balance was a bug?

No.
Are you trying to argue that all unintended functionality is bugs?

[Passerbye.6291]

Just now, The Boz.2038 said:

No.
Are you trying to argue that all unintended functionality is bugs?

Nice attempt at derailing mate, well done, we all totally forgot how you argued something that is entirely pointless for hours, yup.

[The Boz.2038]

* sigh *
OK, look, it is really simple.

If ANet intended it, the question is why.
If they want "a little bit", the penalty triggers (which it does with really bad UI and controls to prevent it), and prevents you from doing your job in most fights in which your job counts.
If they don't want it at all, why does the UI and bot behavior specifically allow for it to happen?
And if they do not want it at all, what is the difference between a mechanist and his mech, and just a mechanist buffed up to have the same output, if the *entirety* of this output is anchored to exactly where the mechanist is standing?

The intention behind the "bugs" comment is that ANet hastily designed the penalty initially as a knee-jerk reaction to initial complaints a year ago, which were warranted. Then, echoing complaints that had feedback and lag lead to more nerfs, and more nerfs and more nerfs. Then, for some reason, they replaced the penalty with explanations that lead us to believe that it was less penalizing than before, only for the exact opposite to be the case. Why are they still convinced the penalty should exist? Is the penalty being harsher than before intended or not?

Can't wait for another "let's talk in nonsensical circles" reply. I am at the edge of my seat.

[Stalima.5490]

On 6/29/2023 at 9:23 AM, Tails.9372 said:

The official explanation is to "reward good positioning" (to my knowledge they never bothered to elaborate any further). However I've never seen anyone actually ask for something like this and the whole thing is just riddled with issues. "good positioning" is inherently context dependent and nothing about it feels "rewarding" either, quite the opposite as it's just a strait up QoL downgrade.

The big flaw with "good positioning" is that the mechanist is extremely tanky, it should not be focusing much on positioning since it does not benefit from doing so, it is an elite that benefits from being directly in the enemies face, and also ruining the enemys positioning (this is why pvpers always rage at the mech).

Also, It does not make sense to focus on positioning when you cannot actually control your mechs position, thus this mechanic does not reward good positioning but rather it rewards bad positioning, namely wherever your mech randomly decides to run off to.

 

This effect exists for nothing more than to interfere with the mechanists rifle gameplay in pvp, which is no longer even relevant due to a heavy nerfing.

Edited June 30, 2023 by Stalima.5490

[Kuma.1503]

2 hours ago, Passerbye.6291 said:

You had to walk into the group to apply alacrity with the spirits still, forcing you to join the group back regardless, they only continually provided their basic boons, so some might, fury, prot etc. Btw, spirits were immobile, not constantly tracking a target, and they would continually degrade, taking percentage damage, forcing you to babysit them, so there was a clear downside or a trade off. What you are arguing against is akin to saying old druid spirits should have followed the target, did some damage, and also applied alacrity by themselves.

This is a valid point. 

Druid is a similar alacrity provider to HAM in that it is also a pet spec which gives alac, and spirits are arguably subject to harsher restrictions than Mech. 

However, Spirit Druid, despite being a very capable alacrity support with great utility, was a very unpopular choice in group content. Why is that? It's not because Druid is lacking anything major. It's got great healing both burst and sustained, a good array of boons, cleansing, phenomenal crowd control, immobilize, the ability to AoE rez. It can hard carry fights, but it's a royal pain to play. And part of that comes down to spirits and their overly restrictive movement. 

This is arguably a design flaw with the spec if it's driving players away from it in droves. For that reason, I don't think the correct course of action is to make Mech more like Druid. 

Instead, Anet should look into Druid and Mech's usability issues. Ask themselves "Why do players dislike this? Why doesn't this feel good to play?" And set about improving the gameplay feel of both specs. (This IS a game at the end of the day. Balance is important, but so is the FEEL of the class you play). 

 

The question being posed in this thread is if ANet's current restrictions are really the best way to achieve their intended design goals. Or, perhaps, could these goals be achieved in a better way that:

A. Feels better to play

and 

B. Is still balanced with appropriate trade-offs. 

Moving onto the topic of the Mech's movement...

The most common point of feedback is that the Mech is very unresponsive, rubberbandy, and difficult to micromanage. Positioning the Mech exactly where you want it to be is unecessarily difficult, even with the tools provided. For that reason, the current restrictions feel less like punishment for sloppy play. And MORE like punishment for sloppy design. 

Giving better control over the mech would ease a lot of these pain points, and I think most Mech players would even be okay with harsher restrictions on the Mech if they had greater control over when these restrictions are applied to them. 

 

Apologies for the long post, but hopefully this can help us get discussions back on track. 

Edited June 30, 2023 by Kuma.1503

[Tails.9372]

24 minutes ago, Kuma.1503 said:

Giving better control over the mech would ease a lot of these pain points, and I think most Mech players would even be okay with harsher restrictions on the Mech if they had greater control over when these restrictions are applied to them. 

Except this would go directly against what the mech has been advertised as. While giving the player more options to micromanage the mech would be a good thing this should never be used as an excuse to put unnecessary restrictions onto it.

Edited June 30, 2023 by Tails.9372

[Bomboed.5697]

The only point of the leash is to take something fun to play and make it unfun to play. No fun allowed, period. We are least loved class by devs, our destiny is to suffer.

Edited June 30, 2023 by Bomboed.5697

[Kuma.1503]

2 hours ago, Tails.9372 said:

Except this would go directly against what the mech has been advertised as. While giving the player more options to micromanage the mech would be a good thing this should never be used as an excuse to put unnecessary restrictions onto it.

Agreed. The restrictions should be used as a means to balance the spec. They should not be unecessary restrictions added to simply meet an arbitrary quota. 

An example of this done naturally would be something like this:

 

Superconductor Signet: When within 600 radius of your mech, create a Jade tether. While the tether holds, gain 10% increased condition damage and inflict conditions on enemies that cross the tether. (ICD per enemy)

Active: Overload and the tether, breaking it and releasing a burst of Conditons around you and your Mech. Skill is unusable if Mech is outside tether range. (Tether not broken if J-Drive is selected.)

 

This is just an example of what they could do. This creates a bigger restriction on Superconductor signet by making both the active and passive unusable beyond 600 range.

But it also creates  new gameplay for the player and rewards them for smart positioning of the Mech. The player is rewarded with more DPS potentail by using the tether to inflict damage on enemies. 

 

On top of that, this would be far easier to understand from a player perspective. 

When in range of Mech: Inflict conditions and deal more damage. There's an obvious green energy tether between you and the mech that tells you (and opponents in PvP/WvW) if the Mech is in range or not. 

While out of range: Lose these bonuses until the Mech is brought back in range. 

This change would come paired with a button that lets you ground target the Mech's exact location. (With no cooldown just like Ventari Tablet). Otherwise this would be extremely unweildy and painful to use. 

 

Edited June 30, 2023 by Kuma.1503

[Chichimec.9364]

On 6/29/2023 at 2:56 AM, The Boz.2038 said:

I don't want to get into the details of how the leash punishes non-compliance; cooldowns, stat loss, whatever.

Why is it there in the first place?

If the devs are bothered by "you shouldn't get to affect your team/the enemy without being close to them simply because your pet is", why is that a problem with mechanist, but not ranger? Why is that a problem at all? 

If your pet is permanently supposed to be rooted to your feet, never to move from where you are, why is the AI so braindead about it? Why does "return to me" result in the mech, six times out of ten, walking up to you and then IMMEDIATELY PAST YOU AND OUT OF RANGE AGAIN? 
Additionally, if you and the mech are supposed to be in the same place all the time... why is the mech even there? What class fantasy or mechanic is fulfilled by the mech existing, if the mech is always where you are, always takes damage when you do (because 90% of the damage in the game is some form of AoE/cleave), and always affects people in a point blank AoE around you/it?

Just why to the everything of it?!

Sigh, I think this thread illustrates well why this punishing leash has been added to the game. When the Mechanist was first introduced, a number of LI players, like myself, as well as other casual players, immediately fell in love with it. Here was a simple but still very powerful spec that I was actually able to play. The Mechanist immediately attracted as much or more hate as it did love though. There were fierce, sometimes very toxic arguments here on the forum about it. This thread is only a small taste of those original arguments but it is a clear indication that the hate is still there.

Anet could have stood with the LI and casual players. Instead, they sided with the try hard, git gud folks and began nerfing the Mechanist, something they are still doing now. The Mechanical Genius addition is a joke, a bad one. The wiki says, "Through your mechanical genius, you have utilized Canthan jade technology to build a customized battle mech that will fight at your side."

Uhm, no, not at all true. Far from it. When Mechanical Genius was first introduced, I was doing the Chak Gerent event on a daily basis to get some of the currencies I needed for the legendaries I was working on. In those fights, the Mech was almost never at my side. It would wander all over the battlefield and the visual clutter was so intense that there were times I could not even find it. The Return To Me button sometimes worked but often didn't. Even using Blish to show the appropriate circle didn't help when I couldn't even see where my Mech was.

Earlier today, just to check how Mechanical Genius was working now, I took my Mechanist out to help defend the farmers in the fields outside of Amnoon. The fighting there was spread out enough that I could always easily see my Mech. However, the "positioning" that Anet wants me to be concerned about consisted mostly of me following my Mech around as it meandered through the fighting.

Sigh, I do not want to get into toxic arguments about the Mechanist again. So I'm not going to respond to anyone who comments on this particular post. I said what I wanted to say and I'm just going to leave it at that. I am not going to get into another fight about it.

 

[Zzik.5873]

21 hours ago, Kuma.1503 said:

I dislike this change because it does the opposite of what Anet claims it does. 

"Good Positioning" is obviously a cop-out for a change that was done to satiate the mob, but assuming that's actually their goal... they've failed miserably. 

Good Positioning on Mechanist will often mean being in two places at once. That means going to do mechanics while you keep your Mech on the group to give boons. Performing two roles at the same time and using your pet spec to the fullest. 

This change punishes good positioning. It actively encourages you to stack on your mech inside of damaging AoEs. It discourages you from splitting from your mech to do mechanics while upkeeping boons. For a change that was meant to increase Mech's skill cap. It does a good job of encouraging the exact opposite. 

Doing two roles at once is a mark of a good player who knows his spec and knows the fight. It captures the fantasy of playing a pet spec. As it stands, the Mech is just a clunky second health bar that rubberbands around you and requires constant babysitting. 

 

I'd also like to point out the stealth nerf to Alac mech this patch. Which I assume was meant to make it harder to play. No more barrier on mace auto 3. Instead it's on the 2 skill. A reasonable change, but unecessary given that Mechanist isn't the top overperformer and doesn't need yet another nerf right now. 

They should be looking at ele and it's overperformance in PvP/WvW, and the fact that it's very solid in PvE as well. Why is Mech the thing on their radar right now?

I could not have said better! This is the excat fun of a pet class in mmo!!!

[Yaki.9563]

On 6/30/2023 at 2:59 AM, Dawdler.8521 said:

I tried mech barrier build for the first time in forever and I literally have 100% uptime on alacrity doing absolutely nothing... with p/p on a condi build and 20% boon duration. In WvW. 

I dont even want to know how it was before alacrity was nerfed then.

No you don't.

[jaif.3518]

They did the same thing to ranger long ago. We used to take our jaguars,  send them on top of walls in WvW in stealth, and attack. They removed this. (Jag is just an example, we did this with many pets.)

Anet is very consistent about this - if you're attacking somebody,  you need to put yourself somewhere near.

Fwiw, i really enjoy mechanist, and do not mind the leash. While i understand a quiet debate about the numbers, you lose me when you question the basic principle.  Get into the action.

[Noxin.9276]

If you think about it this leash is rooted to the slew of new engineers at Cantha's launch coming into mechanist as a max-rifle-range (granting high survivability) high-end damage dealer putting out alacrity and barrier without almost any input or skill required. This was a problem as it continued to attract far too many players to the "1 button win" class - people weren't playing what was their preference, just what was overpowered, 9/10 mechanist raids is not what anet wanted.

Should you want to maintain the basic levels of damage, utility and even the "low intensity (easy) playstyle" but don't want the ranged survival at the same time you have to encourage players to stay close. They initially tried weakening the rifle but couldn't go too far without impact on other builds like holo rifle. Next attempt was "leash or lose a % of your stats" before this patch which was not noticed as it was purely numerical, after which they took the same logic and moved to cooldowns which is much more visible to players.

I have the same hope as anet that many mechanist players will eventually no longer see the class as a uncontested "I win button" and try some of the more challenging and varied builds and professions.

 

 

 

[Stalima.5490]

What's really frustrating with this mechanic is that you are getting actively punished for playing well and I don't like that, if i use the pistol and shield combo, I will want to maintain a respectable distance from my target while my mech runs in to attack, the result is that my mech is just unconditionally nerfed despite the fact that I play correctly.

Edited July 3, 2023 by Stalima.5490

[sigmundf.7523]

No matter how much people complaining on how bad mechanist is right now, nothing will change. Because whenever it feels good, there will be angry mobs that want mechanist to be butchered. 

The funny thing about mechanist dps is, even when you are a skilled player that have "good positioning" (which is stacking, either near boss or other players for boonfest) and doing proper rotation, your dps isn't changing that much compared to LI one. People will be surprised when I say an "optimized" power dps rifle mechanist have high APM, but its true. I was a holo main before EoD, and when I have EoD, I was maining power dps rifle mechanist before all these nerfs and 2 shots AA rifle, and shortly after. I enjoy of having an option of LI version and high APM proper dps version. Before all these nerfs, the high APM version was actually rewards you with noticeably higher dps. Not to mention, the high APM version is latency friendly since I play with 230 MS, and I couldn't properly dps with holosmith with 230ms since I can't squeeze that last corona burst before exiting photon forge. 

If confused about "high APM" "proper dps" version of power rifle mechanist, it is this :

1) You always stack with other players, dps-ing at pointblank range. You don't ever ever do dps rotation at range, especially using blunderbuss. 

2) You don't ever ever autocast mech skill, you activate them manually. You actually losing dps by having mech on autocast.

3) You take grenade kits, using grenade 2-4-5 in your rotation, and always using grenade 2 after blunderbluss, which are frequent.

4) You use all your rifle skills to dps, period. Yes, including rifle 3-4 that was "meant" for CC. You only save rifle 4 for CC for very fast breakbar damage /cc AND if failing destroying that breakbar / CC-ing the enemies resulting your party failing accomplish certain goals (like HT CM balls for title achievement) or wiping your party, like those crabs in HT CM at balls phase. By not using all your rifle skills, your dps sucks and not optimized. 

They shouldn't nerf mechanist, instead they should change on how mechanist deliver its damage. Make LI version to do inferior dps, and proper or skilled player to be able to achieve high dps. Here is an idea on how to achieve those ;

1) Add a resource bar for mech, can be like cata or warrior or revenant or even thief initiative, or even friggin mesmer "clone" counter . Mech skill consume that resource bar, the higher / more the resource consumed, the higher damage the mech's skill do.

2) Make mechanist weapon skills  / certain damaging kits to charge the resource bar. Melee weapons and non-automated kits (turret) give alot more charges than range weapon / ranged kits and automated kits. However, if using ranged weapon / kits at melee range, it gives more resources than it usually does when used at range but not at the same rate with melee weapon / kits. 

Skilled player that do rotation properly will be actually rewarded, while there will be still an LI version that does damage but inferior. 

 

Edited July 3, 2023 by sigmundf.7523

[Gendalfs.7521]

6 hours ago, Noxin.9276 said:

I have the same hope as anet that many mechanist players will eventually no longer see the class as a uncontested "I win button" and try some of the more challenging and varied builds and professions.

Basically change class or f off.

[Gendalfs.7521]

3 hours ago, sigmundf.7523 said:

Skilled player that do rotation properly will be actually rewarded, while there will be still an LI version that does damage but inferior.

That LI thing has long time gone when they nerfed Mech last year november introducing new Rifle AA and MG.

People found out Condi pistol builds with kits, that did OK dmg, but guess what. Jugling around with kits is almost same gameplay as elementalists. Now they try to nerf it even more. Its pointless at this time to say anything more.

[Noxin.9276]

9 hours ago, Gendalfs.7521 said:

Basically change class or f off.

Change class/spec is ideal yes (given the player numbers on mechanist), but I think they are okay with the long haul players staying who are in it for the class fantasy/low intensity gameplay - just not at max range as well.

[Parpage.9867]

On 6/29/2023 at 9:56 AM, The Boz.2038 said:

Why is it there in the first place?

What's the point of having a pet based spec when you get punished for your pet existing if you dare step one toe outside of its range? This is probably the worse iteration of mechanical genius imo, it was somewhat of acceptable having a timer but now it's just plain weird. Power mech is already nerfed, so what's the excuse again for this thing to persist? Imagine if untamed had a penalty whenever his pet wasn't in range lmao

[Parpage.9867]

18 hours ago, Stalima.5490 said:

What's really frustrating with this mechanic is that you are getting actively punished for playing well and I don't like that, if i use the pistol and shield combo, I will want to maintain a respectable distance from my target while my mech runs in to attack, the result is that my mech is just unconditionally nerfed despite the fact that I play correctly.

Exactly, this is more of an annoyance rather than a "skill expression" bestow upon a based pet spec and it's ridiculous, just get rid of it already 

[jaif.3518]

4 hours ago, Parpage.9867 said:

What's the point of having a pet based spec when you get punished for your pet existing if you dare step one toe outside of its range? This is probably the worse iteration of mechanical genius imo, it was somewhat of acceptable having a timer but now it's just plain weird. Power mech is already nerfed, so what's the excuse again for this thing to persist? Imagine if untamed had a penalty whenever his pet wasn't in range lmao

The mech's abilities are reduced, not yours. You are not being "punished".  You've gained the safety of range, and your pistol works just fine.

If you want optimal support abilities,  get into melee.

[Parpage.9867]

4 minutes ago, jaif.3518 said:

The mech's abilities are reduced, not yours. You are not being "punished".  You've gained the safety of range, and your pistol works just fine.

If you want optimal support abilities,  get into melee.

The point of this spec is to swap out your toolbelt with a pet, so yes you're literally being punished if you're not in range of your mech the idea itself is just ridiculous. It was fine and understandable when rifle mech was ridiculously broken, but now that it's gone it doesn't make any sense to keep annoying people with this "mechanic"

[Parpage.9867]

9 minutes ago, jaif.3518 said:

You've gained the safety of range, and your pistol works just fine.

Also how come ranged stuff like virtuoso, harbinger, condi druid and next patch scourge are totally fine having 40k bench with a relatively easy rotation and no annoying features like mechanical genius they get a free pass but mechanist doesn't? Seems like hateful bias to me 🤷‍♂️

[Gendalfs.7521]

49 minutes ago, Parpage.9867 said:

Also how come ranged stuff like virtuoso, harbinger, condi druid and next patch scourge are totally fine having 40k bench with a relatively easy rotation and no annoying features like mechanical genius they get a free pass but mechanist doesn't? Seems like hateful bias to me 🤷‍♂️

Its too easy to play. Thats not the official Anet statement, but that what I got reading these forums. Do You understand? Its not OP, its too easy to use!

Somehow people like Mech and play it, so many greeny things around that burns peoples eyes out. Do You understand? Too many Mech players around!

When you play Mech and get it boring to play you suggest nerf. Do You understand? Its boring to play!

/s

[jaif.3518]

4 hours ago, Parpage.9867 said:

The point of this spec is to swap out your toolbelt with a pet, so yes you're literally being punished if you're not in range of your mech the idea itself is just ridiculous. It was fine and understandable when rifle mech was ridiculously broken, but now that it's gone it doesn't make any sense to keep annoying people with this "mechanic"

No, not ridiculous,  a tradeoff. Melee is more powerful, range is safer. Pick one.

What seems ridiculous to me is all this griping. Mech is a fun, low effort spec that's my goto when I'm in a chill mood, and i expect that's true for a ton of people.