Mechanist - What is the point of the leash?

[Parpage.9867]

2 hours ago, jaif.3518 said:

Melee is more powerful, range is safer. Pick one.

Condi harbinger, convi virtuoso, condi specter, condi druid, scourge (starting from the next patch) they all say hello 🙂

2 hours ago, jaif.3518 said:

What seems ridiculous to me is all this griping. Mech is a fun, low effort spec that's my goto when I'm in a chill mood, and i expect that's true for a ton of people.

Both statements can be applied to the specs that i said before and yet you conveniently ignore them lmao. Also nobody is saying that mech is hard, the point of many people is that mechanical genious is annoying and it was the result of when they buffed too much rifle mech and it was oppressive. It doesn't make any logical sense to have a PET based spec and be punished if you're not 24/7 in its range, could you imagine how anti-fun would be if ranger had to stay inside the range of his pet to get the full effect of his kit? But at this point i'm just repeating myself and since you don't provide a good reason other than "it's easy lol" (just like many other specs btw *coff coff*) for this annoyance to persist let's just agree to disagree

[jaif.3518]

I ignored because none of the specs you named are remotely LI pet classes. How can you seriously compare druid with mech?

[Alcatraznc.3869]

7 hours ago, jaif.3518 said:

No, not ridiculous,  a tradeoff. Melee is more powerful, range is safer. Pick one.

Tradeoff ? Vindicator used to have 1 dodge and now it has 2 dodge. Daredevil used to have a F1 with shorter range now it is back to the normal Thief F1. Chronomancer used to trade the distortion for continuum split and now it has both. Berserker used to trade its normal F1 attack for a Berserk mode now it has both. Druid pet used to have a penalty on its stats and now it has none. Soulbeast could not switch pet in combat and now it can. Do you want me to keep going ? 

Mechanist and Engineer as a whole is among those class that still have to deal with a trade off. Where is our elite toolbelt skill for all our spec ? Where are all the toolbelt skill when we use Mechanist ?  How come none of our spec has receive those trade off removal changes ? 

7 hours ago, jaif.3518 said:

What seems ridiculous to me is all this griping. Mech is a fun, low effort spec that's my goto when I'm in a chill mood, and i expect that's true for a ton of people. 

Fun is subjective and being "fun" and "low effort" is not a reason to give it awfull and garbage punishing mechanic.

[Parpage.9867]

11 hours ago, jaif.3518 said:

How can you seriously compare druid with mech?

I do compare them because they are both easy, also you seem to forgot about the other builds as well but i assume you associate "press only 1 = mechanist" and don't bother with an actual response

[Noxin.9276]

On 7/4/2023 at 8:44 AM, jaif.3518 said:

No, not ridiculous,  a tradeoff. Melee is more powerful, range is safer. Pick one.

What seems ridiculous to me is all this griping. Mech is a fun, low effort spec that's my goto when I'm in a chill mood, and i expect that's true for a ton of people. 

Thanks for saying it as clear as possible - even mechanists should be able to understand.

Mechanists were clearly designed to play from melee, the leash is an expression of that. They are not taking your CHOICE of ranged from you, just letting you know its not the intent with a cooldown nerf.

15 hours ago, Parpage.9867 said:

I do compare them because they are both easy, also you seem to forgot about the other builds as well but i assume you associate "press only 1 = mechanist" and don't bother with an actual response

Just because mechanists play while on a vacation from any skill requirement, doesn't mean every spec is equally easy. Druid support is awesome and they work for every second of it in any content that matters, they aren't on weaver/old-school condi engi, level but nothing else is.

[jaif.3518]

21 hours ago, Parpage.9867 said:

I do compare them because they are both easy, also you seem to forgot about the other builds as well but i assume you associate "press only 1 = mechanist" and don't bother with an actual response

Virtuoso is not a pet class. Harb is not normally one, nor is scourge, especially as supports.

Druid, while it is a pet class, is not "easy" in any area of the game; claiming such is either deceptive or ignorance.  A druid is always juggling avatar state and various cooldowns. It is thematic and evocative,  but certainly not easy.

 

Again, had this thread been a quiet conversation about 360 vs 450, I probably wouldn't have commented.   But hysterical responses like "devs hate fun and want to punish it" are too much for me. The devs love the mech, they obviously poured a lot of time into it to specifically address the LI pet class fantasy. It's been well-received and is certainly popular in-game.

The idea that those same devs who made the class are now intent on "punishing" players is ludicrous. 

[Gendalfs.7521]

3 hours ago, jaif.3518 said:

The idea that those same devs who made the class are now intent on "punishing" players is ludicrous.

Dev that created Mech no longer works at Anet. 

[Parpage.9867]

10 hours ago, Noxin.9276 said:

Just because mechanists play while on a vacation from any skill requirement, doesn't mean every spec is equally easy. Druid support is awesome and they work for every second of it in any content that matters, they aren't on weaver/old-school condi engi, level but nothing else is.

Too bad that i said condi druid, not support. At least if you want to try to count point someone, use a real quote that i said instead of making things up.
 

 

4 hours ago, jaif.3518 said:

Virtuoso is not a pet class. Harb is not normally one, nor is scourge, especially as supports.

Exactly that's the point good job, why other easy classes have the plus of having not to worry about a pet while mechanist are punished if you step one inch outside of that pet radius? I feel like a broken record but i can't stress enough how it doesn't make any sense and this is the worse iteration of mechanical genius, at least add back the grace period that we had like the other patch.
 

 

4 hours ago, jaif.3518 said:

Druid, while it is a pet class, is not "easy" in any area of the game; claiming such is either deceptive or ignorance.

A 5 minute Google search would prove otherwise, but sure let's resort to insults when we're out of arguments right? I can assure you that shortbow condi druid (and other builds that i've stated, so please do not pull out of thin air about support build cause i'm not talking about them) is easy, if you find it hard i'm sorry but it's a you problem

Even with the LI build you can dish out 37k, and you do not have the downside of having to worry about your pet
 

 

4 hours ago, jaif.3518 said:

A druid is always juggling avatar state and various cooldowns

And so does condi mechanist with kits, so what? It's okay if you don't like the class but at least have the decency to avoid to apply your sour logic of "me mechanist player, me press 1, me good" to everyone that plays it

[Sindust.7059]

In all these discussions about LI gameplay don't forget condi tempest. Now that it was buffed, it does more DPS than power mech while just camping fire attunement and smashing random buttons (before this buff they were equal), and they don't need to stand next to the elemental(s) to do proper damage either. Basically every ranged class has an LI build nowadays that can out-dps power mech, yet people still defend this kitten MG debuff that fixes a problem that already didn't exist when it was introduced, and goes about it in the most annoying way possible and attaching it to one of the most broken game mechanics that they could possibly attach it to..

Edited July 6, 2023 by Sindust.7059

[Noxin.9276]

3 hours ago, Sindust.7059 said:

In all these discussions about LI gameplay don't forget condi tempest. Now that it was buffed, it does more DPS than power mech while just camping fire attunement and smashing random buttons (before this buff they were equal), and they don't need to stand next to the elemental(s) to do proper damage either. Basically every ranged class has an LI build nowadays that can out-dps power mech, yet people still defend this kitten MG debuff that fixes a problem that already didn't exist when it was introduced, and goes about it in the most annoying way possible and attaching it to one of the most broken game mechanics that they could possibly attach it to..

I think you are among many here in being mistaken about the core of the problem the leash is here to solve.

1. Having a LI gameplay style is fine (Arguably) - lets consider this a "utility"

2. Having a high damage build is fine.

3. Having a survivable build is fine (in this case, achieved by max range rifle)

The problem is that you should pick 2 of them, not all three at the same time. Without this leash Jadebotters would be encouraged to take all of them, which they did - leading to a massive explosion of new engineers shortly after release of Cantha.

Your example of a scepter based elementalist (a famously glass cannon class) does not do all you describe while camping fire staff (the closest analogue we have to rifle with 1200 range) and has little to none of the mitigation in those builds that a jadebotter has by default (barrier, pet, medium armor, higher health pool). This build is #1 and #2

 

How would you balance the "pick 2" choices in mind?

   -Try to remember you are trying to balance player populations around more than just engineer - arguments of "all of them" are immediately invalid.

   -Nerfing the rifle specifically has the impact of hitting all other builds of engineer - they already tried it

   -MG was implemented as a purely numerical stat reduction before this patch, the goal of spreading the population was not achieved (no one really noticed).

   -Do we allow for #3, in which case do we lose #1 or #2 - creating a complicated build (making mechanists earn it) or low damage purely utility support?

 

It was clear from the outset that ANET's intention was intended as a mace/pistol class with jadebotters - Adapting to that reality would not be noticing this leash in the first place - they need to communicate this more clearly for sure.

 

 

[Kozumi.5816]

I like the forced range, this spec would be really boring and easy without it.

However, it needs to be increased to at least 600 "yalms" or whatever they use. There's far too many bosses where I can be in melee range, or inside the boss itself, but my mech is too far away from me. That's lame.

[Alcatraznc.3869]

4 hours ago, Noxin.9276 said:

I think you are among many here in being mistaken about the core of the problem the leash is here to solve.

You are implying that there is a problem and the leash is the solution to the said problem, but in reality the leash isnt a solution. It is a penalty imposed on you for not babysitting your mech. In other word the leash IS the problem not a solution. 

 

4 hours ago, Noxin.9276 said:

The problem is that you should pick 2 of them, not all three at the same time. Without this leash Jadebotters would be encouraged to take all of them, which they did - leading to a massive explosion of new engineers shortly after release of Cantha.

That is just wrong. The mech had high coefficient on all its skill and inherited a certain % of the engineer stats which lead to high damage for a pet. Yes I know it is shocking for a pet spec to have a pet that deal competitive damage. Whether the coefficient were too high or not is another debate however the solution was not to introduce a broken mechanic that punishes you for not sticking to your pet like glue. Reducing the coefficient was a decent enough solution. The leash serve no purpose other than penalizing you for not following your pet. And in true Anet fashion we got both.

I'll remind you that the Mech was supposed to be "a friend" you bring in your fight. And what do you do when you fight a 2 vs 1 ? You dont glue to each other and attack on a single direction otherwise what is the point of shooting yourself in the foot with a Mechanist when you could do the same but better with a Holosmith ? You're supposed to spread out, flank, force the opponent to focus on one side.

In PvE this aspect doesnt matter since in 95% of group content you are expected to stack with your team and the 5% remaining is meaningless. But pet AI being pet AI, it loves to move an extra step forward or backward just to mess with your positioning.

For OW it isnt worth talking considering all spec can solo clear champions or legendary, some are just faster than the other sure but in the end everyone reaches the same end.

For PvP and WvW all the mechanist change pretty much killed the spec. Nerfing the mech coefficient was already bad enough now we have to deal with the leash. I was one of the first here to predict that Mechanist for PvP/WvW would be trash and Anet proved me wrong only during the few weeks after EOD releases. Afterward they straight up killed the mech in WvW while slowly butchering mechanist in PvP in every single area it could perform decently. 

4 hours ago, Noxin.9276 said:

-Nerfing the rifle specifically has the impact of hitting all other builds of engineer - they already tried it

Let me correct you here, they didnt tried, they DID nerf rifle. And it DID impact all other builds while also killing the weapon for PvP and WvW content.

4 hours ago, Noxin.9276 said:

-MG was implemented as a purely numerical stat reduction before this patch, the goal of spreading the population was not achieved (no one really noticed).

Depends of the context.

In the context of OW yes it is not noticeable considering mobs are so weak even with a penalty it can still be killed. In the context of PvE group content you stack with your group anyway so yeah it is not noticeable. In PvP/WvW, that difference is very much noticeable, especially when the coefficient are low to begin with.

4 hours ago, Noxin.9276 said:

It was clear from the outset that ANET's intention was intended as a mace/pistol class with jadebotters - Adapting to that reality would not be noticing this leash in the first place - they need to communicate this more clearly for sure

No this is what you want to believe. Anet themselve promoted the Mechanist as a customisable pet that could fit several role. They never promoted it as a spec that forces you to glue to your pet and play at melee. 

[Sindust.7059]

7 hours ago, Noxin.9276 said:

I think you are among many here in being mistaken about the core of the problem the leash is here to solve.

1. Having a LI gameplay style is fine (Arguably) - lets consider this a "utility"

2. Having a high damage build is fine.

3. Having a survivable build is fine (in this case, achieved by max range rifle)

The problem is that you should pick 2 of them, not all three at the same time.

If we go by your standards, power mech does not have #2, so get rid of the MG debuff, it's out of place.

Also I wasn't talking camping "fire staff" I was talking about camping fire attunement, I didn't specify the weapons. But if you must know, I'm talking about scepter/warhorn tempest. Even in celestial gear it can still match power mech on DPS, so glass cannon is not an argument, and DPS tempest has MUCH better healing than any mech except for dedicated healer builds.

Edited July 7, 2023 by Sindust.7059

[NotABandwagoner.9654]

Redacted

Edited February 15 by NotABandwagoner.9654

[sigmundf.7523]

On 7/4/2023 at 6:04 PM, jaif.3518 said:

If you want optimal support abilities,  get into melee.

Firebrand skill's range list ;

Empower = 600 radius

Mantra of Potence = 180 radius, 450 range

Advance / Stand Your Ground / Feel My Wrath = 600 Radius

Battle Presence / Absolute Resolve = 600 Radius

Tome 2 Firebrand skills = ranging from 240 to 600 radius, and 600 range on Desert Blossom / 900 Range on Azure Sun

Tome 3 Firebrand skills = Unrboken Lines 600 radius , Stalwart Stand 360 radius

Hallowed Ground / Sanctuary = 900 range

Bow of Truth = 1200 range

And the list goes on with other supports, soooooo what was it being "optimal support" going melee again ?

On 7/4/2023 at 10:44 PM, jaif.3518 said:

No, not ridiculous,  a tradeoff. Melee is more powerful, range is safer. Pick one.

On 7/4/2023 at 6:04 PM, jaif.3518 said:

You are not being "punished".  You've gained the safety of range, and your pistol works just fine.

1) For sure, you don't do that much instanced content to still arguing abut range vs melee. EVERY SINGLE profession, when doing their jobs / role, always go to melee range (except when doing mechanics). This topic about being range or melee, is more about how the game designed and encounter designed and less about the profession itself. 

2) Yes, mechanist is being punished by having this mechanical genius mostly because the AI behavior is as good as toddler's dinosaur toy. And also when talking about "punishment", there should be an adequate reward on par with the level of punishment. So what is the reward ? Mediocre dps by having to babysitting this dumb green junk all the time throughout encounter ?

On 7/4/2023 at 10:44 PM, jaif.3518 said:

Mech is a fun, low effort spec

For sure, you never play a mechanist. Or maybe you never try to play mechanist dps properly, just sitting there, auto cast mech skill, pressing 1 or 2 button, and yay, everything is fine. Go play mechanist properly, try to hit at least 33k benchmark with power rifle, or 34k with p/p condi, or try playing heal alac mech properly. 

[Stalima.5490]

14 hours ago, Kozumi.5816 said:

I like the forced range, this spec would be really boring and easy without it.

However, it needs to be increased to at least 600 "yalms" or whatever they use. There's far too many bosses where I can be in melee range, or inside the boss itself, but my mech is too far away from me. That's lame.

what are you talking about how does this make it more interesting in any way? There is no actual gameplay involved, you just lose cooldown time thus meaning you get to play the game LESS when the mechanic buff fades at range.

Edited July 7, 2023 by Stalima.5490

[AlPower.2476]

I have some feelings about Mech (PvE)

Mech could be improved if instead of signets he was given with actually active skills... BUT there are people that doens't like the smashing buttons playing style (I even read that there are people with health problems in their hands, so Mech were welcome by them), so Mech was done considering them; so they could try engineer without having to do that. Old Scrapper was also able to do that, but was reworked. So, how could them put an almost basics spam class without the overpower feeling? 'Cause, for example, in raids, maybe sword weaver or virtuoso had stronger dps; at the end they had less dps; 'cause evading, mechanics, etc. While mech could do that without losing much dps. Could understand them. Also; I understand Mech's ease of use enjoyers; especially those that had not enough time to master condi holo or weaver; or had health problems. I don't know what to think here. In the past I was agaisnt Mech playstyle; but now...  I just IDK.

(PvP)

People here was just unfairly mad. I mean; yeah, when mech was immortal he deserved a nerf. But anet overnerfed him 'cause people was mad aggaisnt him even after he was nerfed. "Fighting a pet is annoying" yeah, and there's an entire class with that game style, so?

 

 

Edited July 7, 2023 by AlPower.2476

[Kozumi.5816]

17 minutes ago, AlPower.2476 said:

(PvP)

Pet specs have no place in PvP

[Noxin.9276]

I get that playing an overpowered class can be fun, but folk here are delusional if they think ranged (or tanky), low intensity (no effort) and high damage builds are healthy for the long term of the game. Anet is *trying* to address a problem here with maybe a less than ideal method - if you can't see the problem or don't care; the option to go play a single player game, turn on the cheats and get your power fantasy fill is always there. In an MMO we need a relatively balanced set of builds or people will continue to roll 50%+ mechanist raids just for the path of least resistance.

Picking at the issue and saying; "what about this other wildly different build without a pet" has nothing to do with the leash and suggests nothing in its place.

They could have used the carrot instead of stick and made the high cooldowns baseline, instead *rewarding* players who stick close to the pet for a period of time, but I'm sure they thought about that at some point with its own downsides.

[Parpage.9867]

7 hours ago, Noxin.9276 said:

I get that playing an overpowered class can be fun, but folk here are delusional if they think ranged (or tanky), low intensity (no effort) and high damage builds are healthy for the long term of the game.

It's funny how you're talking about mechanist but this sentence can be literally applied to tons of classes with different builds but you still would justify classes benching more than 40k and are fairly easy, your bias hate is showing so hard lmao. I can assure you that nobody is arguing the fact that at one point Anet screwed up with the buffs and did way way too much for mechanist, in fact it was so convenient that it was borderline ridiculous and needed a desperate nerf. Which it did get by the way, but it seems you're stuck in the past - after August 2022 wingman shows that mechanist was played way less, in fact it passed from 33, 08% to 14,27% for strikes, 20,60% to 5,58% for fractals, 33,09% to 9,38% for raids.

8 hours ago, Noxin.9276 said:

Picking at the issue and saying; "what about this other wildly different build without a pet" has nothing to do with the leash and suggests nothing in its place.

Yes it has literally everything to do with it, because it's about fairness. Like i said before, why would i need to be punished because my pet exist when other classes deal way more and don't have to bother with dealing with that? I'd rather have my dps a bit lower compared to a class that doesn't have a pet (wich we already have btw so just get rid of the kitten thing or at least add back the grace period when out of range like people are saying unlike your claim that "suggest nothing in its place"), but without having to deal with the annoyance of not having to be in range 24/7 of said pet. 

8 hours ago, Noxin.9276 said:

but I'm sure they thought about that at some point with its own downsides.

The dev that designed mechanist is gone, i highly doubt that they give the same degree of attention like before, that's why people speaking out with something that they do not appreciate and feels unfair is important for balance. 

[Sindust.7059]

9 hours ago, Noxin.9276 said:

I get that playing an overpowered class can be fun, but folk here are delusional if they think ranged (or tanky), low intensity (no effort) and high damage builds are healthy for the long term of the game.

Like I already said before, what exactly is "high damage" to you? Most of the support builds can do more DPS than power mech at this point. Last time it was listed on snowcrows it was at 33k (this is also the patch where mech got the MG debuff, which is why I said that the problem they wanted to solve didn't exist any more by the time they introduced it). Then it was nerfed once more to about 31k and has seen no buffs since (I'm talking about proper benchmark, one with 10 condis on the dummy, not all of them, since modified ammunition will inflate the numbers to unrealistic levels). That's while within MG range.

So answer me one question: how low should the DPS be for you to be ok with the removal of the stupid MG debuff?

This is not a rhetorical question. In a world where there are classes doing 40k while doing boon support that can go to 1500 range if they need to (rifle deadeye), what should be the greed dps benchmark of a mechanist so that he doesn't have to babysit the mech? What do you think is fair here?

Edited July 8, 2023 by Sindust.7059

[Noxin.9276]

2 hours ago, Parpage.9867 said:

It's funny how you're talking about mechanist but this sentence can be literally applied to tons of classes with different builds but you still would justify classes benching more than 40k and are fairly easy, your bias hate is showing so hard lmao. I can assure you that nobody is arguing the fact that at one point Anet screwed up with the buffs and did way way too much for mechanist, in fact it was so convenient that it was borderline ridiculous and needed a desperate nerf. Which it did get by the way, but it seems you're stuck in the past - after August 2022 wingman shows that mechanist was played way less, in fact it passed from 33, 08% to 14,27% for strikes, 20,60% to 5,58% for fractals, 33,09% to 9,38% for raids.

Yes it has literally everything to do with it, because it's about fairness. Like i said before, why would i need to be punished because my pet exist when other classes deal way more and don't have to bother with dealing with that? I'd rather have my dps a bit lower compared to a class that doesn't have a pet (wich we already have btw so just get rid of the kitten thing or at least add back the grace period when out of range like people are saying unlike your claim that "suggest nothing in its place"), but without having to deal with the annoyance of not having to be in range 24/7 of said pet. 

The dev that designed mechanist is gone, i highly doubt that they give the same degree of attention like before, that's why people speaking out with something that they do not appreciate and feels unfair is important for balance. 

Adding back a very short grace period is a reasonable QOL improvement while not countering the direction they are going with it (reduction in power) which is clearly still needed despite the historic reductions. This would alleviate the unavoidable pet AI glitches or boss movement situations that are not caused by mechanists intending to sit in the back with a rifle avoiding mechanics.

If we look at the same data-source mentioned about raid popularity, "wingman"- as of most recent dataset (june 2023)- it still shows mechanist dominating raids (14.74%), one spec (not the profession engineer) being more represented than the majority of other entire professions (all three elites) combined. While true, mechanists have dropped in use from a staggeringly high use-rate (33%) in august - With the rest of context it *still* appears to be the primary go-to for people.

 

For those who don't want to check the info themselves:

Elementalists are at 6.9% total (all elites combined)

Thieves are 10.3% (all elites combined)

Necros are 10.32 (all elites combined)

Our other builds (Holo and Scrapper are 2.33 and 1.88 respectively)

Most individual  elites are hanging around the 2-5% mark. Other (still lower) outliers being firebrand and virtuoso.

Mechanist again, 14.74% alone.

 

Most recent data (same source) shows real boss dps output with highs of 30-35k and many more under-performing; be it the nature of playing a support build in many of those runs (focus on alac time) or just low effort builds. The data doesn't tell us which - merely that focused-on-dps mechanist can put out perfectly reasonable values even during this patch in real  fights (given full uptime like mursaat).

On a side note regarding the other classes you mention; If there is indeed another low intensity build doing this "40k" (no data i've seen supports this) by all means it should be addressed as well - I wasn't fond of the old scourge domination for many of the same reasons.

 

As for the personal remark, I don't hate the class, its by far my favorite - having been an engineer main for many years. I just believe it should be balanced based on "what you put in" is "what you get out". Signets and a rifle shouldn't be competitive with complicated rotations (classic condi/holo/weaver) that take practice and proper execution to learn. I fully support LI builds for someone otherwise unable (or unwilling) to move beyond them but they shouldn't be so strong (24-28k is enough to handle most raid content) that they convince the bulk of the player base to forsake anything else like we see here. This is bad for the game (challenge and variety matters for game longevity)  in general and that is why I am against seeing anet's countermeasure removed entirely or made unnoticeable - a very short grace would be fine to address things outside of the player control.

[Parpage.9867]

1 hour ago, Noxin.9276 said:

Adding back a very short grace period is a reasonable QOL improvement while not countering the direction they are going with it (reduction in power) which is clearly still needed despite the historic reductions. This would alleviate the unavoidable pet AI glitches or boss movement situations that are not caused by mechanists intending to sit in the back with a rifle avoiding mechanics.

 

1 hour ago, Noxin.9276 said:

I just believe it should be balanced based on "what you put in" is "what you get out". Signets and a rifle shouldn't be competitive with complicated rotations (classic condi/holo/weaver) that take practice and proper execution to learn

I'm glad we have found something we can agree on 😆

Yes probably the best way to make the majority of people happy is to add the grace period back, honestly i didn't mind it that much when it was a thing (even though i'd prefer to have it completely gone lmao) but i absolutely despise the fact that you step literally one pixel outside the pet radius and hello 40 seconds cool down skill, it's just frustrating instead of something about skill expression and i have no idea why they deleted it entirely 

[Sindust.7059]

5 hours ago, Noxin.9276 said:

Adding back a very short grace period is a reasonable QOL improvement while not countering the direction they are going with it (reduction in power) which is clearly still needed despite the historic reductions. This would alleviate the unavoidable pet AI glitches or boss movement situations that are not caused by mechanists intending to sit in the back with a rifle avoiding mechanics.

If we look at the same data-source mentioned about raid popularity, "wingman"- as of most recent dataset (june 2023)- it still shows mechanist dominating raids (14.74%), one spec (not the profession engineer) being more represented than the majority of other entire professions (all three elites) combined. While true, mechanists have dropped in use from a staggeringly high use-rate (33%) in august - With the rest of context it *still* appears to be the primary go-to for people.

 

For those who don't want to check the info themselves:

Elementalists are at 6.9% total (all elites combined)

Thieves are 10.3% (all elites combined)

Necros are 10.32 (all elites combined)

Our other builds (Holo and Scrapper are 2.33 and 1.88 respectively)

Most individual  elites are hanging around the 2-5% mark. Other (still lower) outliers being firebrand and virtuoso.

Mechanist again, 14.74% alone.

 

Most recent data (same source) shows real boss dps output with highs of 30-35k and many more under-performing; be it the nature of playing a support build in many of those runs (focus on alac time) or just low effort builds. The data doesn't tell us which - merely that focused-on-dps mechanist can put out perfectly reasonable values even during this patch in real  fights (given full uptime like mursaat).

On a side note regarding the other classes you mention; If there is indeed another low intensity build doing this "40k" (no data i've seen supports this) by all means it should be addressed as well - I wasn't fond of the old scourge domination for many of the same reasons.

 

As for the personal remark, I don't hate the class, its by far my favorite - having been an engineer main for many years. I just believe it should be balanced based on "what you put in" is "what you get out". Signets and a rifle shouldn't be competitive with complicated rotations (classic condi/holo/weaver) that take practice and proper execution to learn. I fully support LI builds for someone otherwise unable (or unwilling) to move beyond them but they shouldn't be so strong (24-28k is enough to handle most raid content) that they convince the bulk of the player base to forsake anything else like we see here. This is bad for the game (challenge and variety matters for game longevity)  in general and that is why I am against seeing anet's countermeasure removed entirely or made unnoticeable - a very short grace would be fine to address things outside of the player control.

You're forgetting that mechanist represents 4 different builds (power mech, condi mech, alac dps, healer). Condi mech isn't any better at range than condi tempest, even if the mech was not getting a debuff. Power mech is underperforming regardless of MG status (check my previous post for details). Alac mech does 26k dps under ideal circumstances in the hands of experts, which basically makes it the worst alac dps in the game even within MG range. Which leaves us with just heal mech that might be able to do something special if the MG debuff didn't exist. Compare that to the historical representation of druids that nobody complained about (which was just one build).

In other words, 4 builds of mechanists combined are 4% more prevalent than 2 builds of firebrands or 1% more prevalent than 2 builds of virtuosos. Yet it's mechanists that are overrepresented, not virtuosos or firebrands. And just wait until you see druids take over again now that they have 2 viable builds (and soon 3, since they already announced increasing the alac duration in the next patch).

[AliamRationem.5172]

It's because the spec concept is inherently broken.  To sum it up, the design is intended to trade power from the player to an AI bot.  In order to make this a worthwhile trade, they had to make it very strong.  But when they did that what they found is that players can't compete with overtuned AI that gets to ignore everything players have to deal with in actual gameplay.  The option was either nerf it into oblivion, thereby destroying the entire concept of the spec to begin with, or contrive some sort of player interaction requirement that serves as a penalty against the inherent advantages of an AI bot.