Weaponmaster Training, and how they're slowly removing Elite spec from the game.

[draxynnic.3719]

I don't think elite specs are going away, however much some people might hope they do. Open slather on elite utilities would create bigger headaches than just the potential for overpowered synergies, elite specialisation mechanics aren't going to be just disabled at this point, and a precise reading of ArenaNet statements leaves open the door for another round or two - just not every expansion on a planned annual schedule.

I do find the opening up of elite spec weapons to be a bit spooky from a balance perspective, though. Some such weapons are specifically designed for the elite spec's mechanics and playstyle, and thus won't fit well into others anyway, while others can be dropped in anywhere and they'll work. Combine that with some professions having all their elite specialisation weapons doing similar things while other elite specialisations have very diverse weapons, and there are definitely some professions that will benefit more than others. Another concern is that some weapons might synergise so well with another elite specialisation that they have to be nerfed so hard that they're no longer useful for its original purpose (elementalist sword/warhorn might run into this from what I've heard).

I think there definitely were at least a couple of professions that really needed at least one new core weapon to fill a gap, and weaponmaster certainly achieves that. That might have been better achieved just by introducing new weapons on core that weren't designed with a specific elite spec in mind, however.

Don't get me wrong, there are combinations I'm looking forward to trying, but I can definitely see this causing problems in the long term.

[Elricht Kaltwind.8796]

In the case of your first argument: the same could be made of rune sets etc. What's important is giving players lots of buildcraft options to explore and experiment, not ensuring that all of those options are good. Allowing players to try ineffective build choices is as necessary as giving players lots of junk loot — it makes the good stuff that much more rewarding.

 

It's not hard for them to balance out weapons to ensure that they're not synergising too well with other specs. All they'd have to do is modify the problematic skills in ways that tie them to the elite spec somehow. I suppose this could be done on a case-by-case basis.

[draxynnic.3719]

14 hours ago, Elricht Kaltwind.8796 said:

In the case of your first argument: the same could be made of rune sets etc. What's important is giving players lots of buildcraft options to explore and experiment, not ensuring that all of those options are good. Allowing players to try ineffective build choices is as necessary as giving players lots of junk loot — it makes the good stuff that much more rewarding.

There are enough runes that there are plenty of options for everyone, so having a few that are specific to a certain build isn't a big deal. The main observation in the first argument is that it's definitely a change that benefits some professions more than others. In some cases, this is arguably needed, but there are cases where it's suddenly going to introduce a significant increase in versatility, and some where it almost does nothing at all. And in many cases, the professions that are getting less benefit are also the ones that have generally been worse off in the past few years as it was.

14 hours ago, Elricht Kaltwind.8796 said:

It's not hard for them to balance out weapons to ensure that they're not synergising too well with other specs. All they'd have to do is modify the problematic skills in ways that tie them to the elite spec somehow. I suppose this could be done on a case-by-case basis.

Which means that many more case by case bases that the balancing team needs to handle, and the main mechanic for making a weapon more useful for one elite spec is traits, so you might end up with some very strong weapon traits. A large part of the reason we have balance issues is the sheer number of case by case bases and possible synergies, which is a large part of why we had elite specialisations in the first place. They might be able to work it out, but there's at least the potential that we're going to get a bit of balance chaos when it happens on top of the balance chaos we're already in with all of the reworks. So definitely spooky.

[Elricht Kaltwind.8796]

7 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Which means that many more case by case bases that the balancing team needs to handle, and the main mechanic for making a weapon more useful for one elite spec is traits, so you might end up with some very strong weapon traits. A large part of the reason we have balance issues is the sheer number of case by case bases and possible synergies, which is a large part of why we had elite specialisations in the first place. They might be able to work it out, but there's at least the potential that we're going to get a bit of balance chaos when it happens on top of the balance chaos we're already in with all of the reworks. So definitely spooky.

But I mean aren't there easy ways to make sure any problematic weapon/build combinations aren't too powerful? Can't you just like, for example, nerf the damage of Revenant greatsword skills by 25% and then add "does 25% more damage when attuned to Legendary Alliance Stance"?

[draxynnic.3719]

On 7/8/2023 at 11:37 PM, Elricht Kaltwind.8796 said:

But I mean aren't there easy ways to make sure any problematic weapon/build combinations aren't too powerful?

Ask the GW1 balance team.

On 7/8/2023 at 11:37 PM, Elricht Kaltwind.8796 said:

Can't you just like, for example, nerf the damage of Revenant greatsword skills by 25% and then add "does 25% more damage when attuned to Legendary Alliance Stance"?

Sure, if you started smacking penalties on the weapon for using them without the right elite specialisation that are so strong that the weapon might as well still be exclusive, you could do that. But there's an obvious easier route to take if that's something that they'd consider doing.

[Gotejjeken.1267]

Elite specs were supposed to fill a role, however somewhere along the way anet forgot this and just started slowly phasing them out to the point they are just different mechanics.

Getting rid of them IS possible; all they would have to do is do what they are doing with runes--just add a slot for your preferred mechanic of choice.  Then just get rid of the individual traitlines and merge them all into the core ones and / or make them 'normal' and allow you to take more than one.  

This of course would probably be an untenable balance nightmare--but the whole weaponmaster training isn't far off.  Once you remove the weapon from their intended role you start introducing a lot of variables that are less than desirable.  

[Kozumi.5816]

On 7/2/2023 at 1:23 PM, Lighter.5631 said:

and people demanding power tempest.

Condi tempest makes no sense, tempest should be a power spec.

[Kozumi.5816]

On 7/4/2023 at 1:43 AM, Bunny.9834 said:

They're slowly killing class fantasy and uniqueness when it comes to the professions for the sake of "options".

My classs fantasy isn't "useless and bad".

Every class should be able to do everything like Guardian and Engineer. This is the goal of GW2 since release, they have just failed at it.

  

On 7/4/2023 at 9:40 AM, Dawdler.8521 said:

They're doing it for the elites. They dont want you to play core.

I don't want to play core either, why would anyone? They're really boring and basic.

Edited July 11, 2023 by Kozumi.5816

[Lily.1935]

On 7/2/2023 at 1:24 PM, Leo G.4501 said:

Treating the especs as upgrades is something we can all imagine because it's the current reality.

No one thinks of the weapons as an upgrade over core, merely a bonus that is unique to a specific espec. Heck, some espec weapons are kind of bad or at best niche use.

The problem here, IMO, is that no one is keeping things relative to the current situation. No one is concerned that core specs get access to espec weapons. It's that especs get access to other espec weapons. They basically get the bonus they had + the bonus that were locked out of. This is called power creep.

Need I remind you, the "trade offs" that especs had to make to get some of their bonuses has been removed as well. The trajectory will be a culling of a lot of things (utilities, weapons, traits, gear) to make room for all this reshuffling and any fun builds you have been holding onto are in the line of fire. Not everyone likes coming back to the game to find their build is gone (not nerfed, just gone) and has to rebuild from something else.

Sometimes, creativity grows from dealing with limitations rather than having unlimited opportunities.

There are cases were taking an elite spec could be a significant "Trade off" but arena net hasn't quite figured that out. I think in some cases the issue lies in the core specs which don't have enough synergy between them to really make you want to take a core spec. For example, mesmer doesn't have enough that could really pull you into running core over mirage which use the same shatters. A lot of times you're sacrificing too much because the elite specs give a lot of stats, utility and the mechanic is often well worth it too.

I do think decoupling the weapons and utility skills could help alleviate that issue but wouldn't solve it. Anet would need to really have to consider how they could balance the core specs to give this trade off. The issue is finding a way to buff the core specs without just outright buffing the elite specs. Its rare we want to run. One method that could help with that is to add more core specs. Then where as most specs want to run two specific core specs, like DPS Engineer in pve typically always runs Firearms and explosives but tools isn't great as a 3rd option for core so an elite spec is just always going to be better. but if they had another core spec that's as desirable as firearms and explosives suddenly core engineer sounds enticing. Now, this isn't a perfect solution to this and it comes with its own problems.

There's other issues too like professions with a real trade off like Necromancer, their core mechanic is just so terrible even if core necromancer had the damage boosting traits from Scourge, reaper or harbinger they still wouldn't want to run death shroud because its so bad outside of specific PvP settings. So in those cases, it would need a re balancing if arena net was interested in going that direction.

[Riba.3271]

Devs: Gives player options and build variety for free

Players: We don't want this!!! 🤭

Hammer Soulbeast is such a weird example since there are 0 metabuilds for hammer Untamed. The weapon might actually find some use after.

PvE balance doesn't matter since you can just run worse builds for fun and PvP balance is already in ruins. In the end it is just a game and big changes are good so it isn't too stale.

[draxynnic.3719]

2 hours ago, Riba.3271 said:

Devs: Gives player options and build variety for free

Players: We don't want this!!! 🤭

Hammer Soulbeast is such a weird example since there are 0 metabuilds for hammer Untamed. The weapon might actually find some use after.

PvE balance doesn't matter since you can just run worse builds for fun and PvP balance is already in ruins. In the end it is just a game and big changes are good so it isn't too stale.

Untamed hammer is something I could see being better with non-Untamed even without considering the special mechanics of other elite specs like Soulbeast. They're dealing with the "can no longer switch between two sets of skills" by just letting you pick and choose which of the skills you take - at the moment, though, the synergy between the stuns on the "leashed" skills 3 and 5 and the "unleashed" skills 2 and 4 is weakened a bit by the awkwardness of having to switch between the two states. With other specs, though, you can just set skills 2 and 4 to the unleashed versions, 3 and 5 to the leashed versions, and always have that follow-up ready to go.

[draxynnic.3719]

6 hours ago, Lily.1935 said:

There are cases were taking an elite spec could be a significant "Trade off" but arena net hasn't quite figured that out. I think in some cases the issue lies in the core specs which don't have enough synergy between them to really make you want to take a core spec. For example, mesmer doesn't have enough that could really pull you into running core over mirage which use the same shatters. A lot of times you're sacrificing too much because the elite specs give a lot of stats, utility and the mechanic is often well worth it too.

This is something I've been saying for a while. Core Guardian managed to remain niche but relevant in PvE up until Willbender came onto the scene, and continues to have a reasonably strong showing in competitive, largely on the back of core guardian traitlines having a lot of synergies - whatever build you take, there's always a third core traitline you can take to augment that build further, so guardian builds are less likely to default to taking an elite specialisation just because there's nothing useful to the build in core and so they might as well. That's something that other professions don't always have, and the obsession with "tradeoffs" in past years has probably just slowed down meaningful core traitline reworks that might otherwise have brought more professions up to that standard.

[Leo G.4501]

8 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

This is something I've been saying for a while. Core Guardian managed to remain niche but relevant in PvE up until Willbender came onto the scene, and continues to have a reasonably strong showing in competitive, largely on the back of core guardian traitlines having a lot of synergies - whatever build you take, there's always a third core traitline you can take to augment that build further, so guardian builds are less likely to default to taking an elite specialisation just because there's nothing useful to the build in core and so they might as well. That's something that other professions don't always have, and the obsession with "tradeoffs" in past years has probably just slowed down meaningful core traitline reworks that might otherwise have brought more professions up to that standard.

I'd say Ele also has some decent synergies from it's core specs that a core build still has unique qualities that you're trading off picking up an espec as your third. The issue with that tho is ele's especs are straight upgrades for the core mechanics. So for them, having trade offs for the espec might make more core builds compete... Or if the weapon mastery was limited to core, then sword/warhorn meta would be leashed to core specs.

But my ele knowledge is outdated. I haven't even unlocked catalyst yet and I'm sure a lot of traits have been altered like the recent stone heart trait. 

If the approach was "let's try to bring core back into the mix" with this change, I'd be intrigued but this addition doesn't seem to be going that direction overall.

But yeah I agree about guardian, I still like to rock my core blind justice spammy hammer core build because it feels fun to play and you can't really do the same with the especs with the changed virtues... Or maybe you can, I haven't unlocked will bender either.

Edited July 12, 2023 by Leo G.4501

[Elricht Kaltwind.8796]

On 7/9/2023 at 11:33 AM, draxynnic.3719 said:

Ask the GW1 balance team.

Sure, if you started smacking penalties on the weapon for using them without the right elite specialisation that are so strong that the weapon might as well still be exclusive, you could do that. But there's an obvious easier route to take if that's something that they'd consider doing.

The irony of your post is that that's literally what they did in Guild Wars 1. If I were to ask them this question, they would say "it's simple, you just make weapons completely ineffective without being in the intended class." That's how it worked.

[draxynnic.3719]

14 minutes ago, Elricht Kaltwind.8796 said:

The irony of your post is that that's literally what they did in Guild Wars 1. If I were to ask them this question, they would say "it's simple, you just make weapons completely ineffective without being in the intended class." That's how it worked.

The double irony is that part of my point is that if they were going to take that approach, the easiest way to do it would be to leave elite specialisation weapons locked to that elite specialisation (the "obviously easier route" that I mentioned).

Which is essentially the way it was in GW1 - GW1 didn't have a mechanic that outright blocked you from equipping a weapon, but if you didn't have that (secondary) profession you wouldn't have any skills for it and would do basically no damage, making it pretty close to the situation you get now when you have a weapon equipped that comes from an elite specialisation that you're not currently using.

[kharmin.7683]

On 7/11/2023 at 11:00 PM, Riba.3271 said:

 

Hammer Soulbeast is such a weird example since there are 0 metabuilds for hammer Untamed. The weapon might actually find some use after.

 

Hammer for ranger (Untamed notwithstanding) was only implemented after the Ranger forum cried and cried for the antiquated BunnyThumper spec.   And hammer/Untamed is what we got.  Bravo.  /s

Always be careful of asking Anet for what you want.  It never turns out that way.

[Gaiawolf.8261]

On 7/11/2023 at 10:00 PM, Riba.3271 said:

Devs: Gives player options and build variety for free

Players: We don't want this!!! 🤭

Slight, but profound, adjustment: The forum posters and a few Reddit posters don't want this. I have a strong suspicion the majority of actual, so far silent players will probably enjoy the greater build diversity. 

[Batalix.2873]

4 minutes ago, Gaiawolf.8261 said:

Slight, but profound, adjustment: The forum posters and a few Reddit posters don't want this. I have a strong suspicion the majority of actual, so far silent players will probably enjoy the greater build diversity. 

Most players aren't very discerning and easily bored by shallow design. While I'm sure many are and will be excited at the outset, I don't see these specific changes sustaining excitement for very long.

[Gaiawolf.8261]

14 minutes ago, Batalix.2873 said:

Most players aren't very discerning and easily bored by shallow design. While I'm sure many are and will be excited at the outset, I don't see these specific changes sustaining excitement for very long.

Well, yeah. No feature sustains excitement for a game very long. That's why we demand constant updates, seasons, and expansions for any long-running game these days.

Although mounts have done a good job for the game's rep and continue to be fun since they came out. If I had to give GW2 distinction for any one feature, it might be the mounts.

Runners up would be the the buy-to-play business model (technically pioneered by GW) and the versatile, soft-play-beteween-roles nature of most of its classes and especs. All are great features that set the game apart from most competitors. 

[kharmin.7683]

On 7/13/2023 at 8:34 PM, Gaiawolf.8261 said:

Slight, but profound, adjustment: The forum posters and a few Reddit posters don't want this. I have a strong suspicion the majority of actual, so far silent players will probably enjoy the greater build diversity. 

I'd almost wager that a significant portion of the playerbase doesn't even know about it.

[Leo G.4501]

2 hours ago, kharmin.7683 said:

I'd almost wager that a significant portion of the playerbase doesn't even know about it.

Yeah, it was only a short beta. I didn't get much time to mess around with it either.

I'm still crossing my fingers hoping they divert this addition to be core-focused somehow rather than elevating elite specs further.  People say, why would I want to play core and this could be part of that answer not to mention a majority of high-end players probably haven't played a pure core build in years.

[Gaiawolf.8261]

3 hours ago, kharmin.7683 said:

I'd almost wager that a significant portion of the playerbase doesn't even know about it.

I wouldn't bet against that. 😅 They have been promoting SOTO among players on splash screens, so a lot of players know about it and its features, but then again, this is Anet. They're pretty terrible at communication, marketing, and advertising.

[Divity.3049]

Maybe we will get the Gw1 Build System at the end of Gw2, that would be awesome