Stealth counter

[senftube.6081]

7 hours ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

Its still an aoe blind on no cd. I'd take thief pistol 5 without smokefield replacing the useless pistol 5 for engineer any day of the week. 

And once again, if the smoke field is that critical to people so it ruins everything... yeah I dont think I have to repeat what is fact. People just want to use it specifically for abusing perma stealth leaps and they cant stand the thought of seeing it nerfed.

Okei bro tell me then how u wanna play D/P after smokefield would be deleted? xD Go make THIEF asap with D/P and show us on a video how u manage to play D/P without it. U can also show us how to play P/P. Lets go Dawdler. 

[senftube.6081]

18 minutes ago, andrewlcl.8176 said:

For the sake of discussion, which other classes, and which other builds? Because I want to learn to play those builds if they can just about instagib with lesser tradeoff than on thief.

In that particular example, the thief can execute the entire combo in under 2 seconds with 3 buttons, while still having at least 7 initiative left (usually 10, since thief usually runs trickery). That's at least enough for a follow up of one heartseeker and one shadow shot with natural initiative regen. Assuming thief didn't also bust out Assassin's Signet for more frontloaded damage, we still have open slots for three utilities and an elite skill from which we can pick any number of quality skills like Shadow Step, Blinding Powder, Infiltrator's Signet & Signet of Agility, Scorpion Wire and then Dagger Storm.

There's plenty there to gap-close, disengage and clear condis, especially for what usually is a 10 second fight (or much less).

Also, those numbers I wrote in the earlier post are on a target with 2450 armor, hardly full-glass as the other poster suggested.

I know this is straying away from the main topic of the thread, which is about stealth. But when you can also do all these things, WITH the added ability of stealth, we have a monster roamer in WvW that annihilates almost anyone else in a 1v1. I'm not asking for blanket nerfs. Balance is not my job. I also like to play thief. Just not those kinds of instagib variants.

u can wreck also peoples with pew pew rangers. U can also wreck peoples with swishh swooshh willbender. U can wreck them with any class because roughly every class has such instagib builds. 🥸 And with the ranger as example u can even 1 shot thiefs by pressing 1-2 buttons. xD even when they are in stealth when they used their daggerstorm or block. With Grenade spamm u can also 1 shot them pretty easy. But yeah here it is mostly okay....hypocrisy at its peak.

Ah and did you ever fought a thief with cele harbinger? xD

Edited July 28, 2023 by senftube.6081

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

Either fully delete stealth or make it last maximum 3 seconds with 3 seconds of revealed after that. Unremovable by any means. Here, a window of opportunity and window of breath, pretty decent for cowardish class like teefs.
P.S. Delete teefs.

[Invictorum.7643]

8 minutes ago, andrewlcl.8176 said:

For the sake of discussion, which other classes, and which other builds? Because I want to learn to play those builds if they can just about instagib with lesser tradeoff than on thief.

Medi S/S Willbender, Full burst shatter Mesmer, Fresh Air catalyst, Explosives holo, Sic em Soulbeast.

 

13 minutes ago, andrewlcl.8176 said:

The discussion is actually more complex because in encounters like this, it's also the ability to escape and resustain that makes a difference. With a thief's mobility, there is little chance to escape and/or resustain. 

If a thief is dumping initiative on the opening burst, they lack any initiative to chase. And unless the thief dumps all initiative to get a full stealth off a Shadowshot? You WILL see them coming.

 

20 minutes ago, andrewlcl.8176 said:

Also, those numbers I wrote in the earlier post are on a target with 2450 armor, hardly full-glass as the other poster suggested.

Player or golem?

[Dawdler.8521]

53 minutes ago, Invictorum.7643 said:

The skill has functioned in the way it does since the launch of base GW2.

Since when has that idea ever stopped Anets Purity Of Purpose? 😐

But sure OK I would be perfectly fine with lowering the initiative cost by 1 point for dropping the smoke field.

[Invictorum.7643]

1 minute ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

But sure OK I would be perfectly fine with lowering the initiative cost by 1 point for dropping the smoke field.

Genuinely not sure if serious. Remove the single biggest effect of a skill, lower cost by 1 initiative. At that point, Shadowshot is legitimately just a better ability on the same weapon, if running D/P. P/P loses its ability to consistently throw blind out via blackpowder -> unload.

 

Black powder cannot have its smoke field removed without then rebalancing pistol offhand as a whole for thief. And even then, stealth based gameplay is the most core design FOR thief, there's an entire trait line built around it.

[Burial.1958]

55 minutes ago, senftube.6081 said:

Okei bro tell me then how u wanna play D/P after smokefield would be deleted? xD Go make THIEF asap with D/P and show us on a video how u manage to play D/P without it. U can also show us how to play P/P. Lets go Dawdler. 

Yeah i would also like a video where Dawdler show me this. 😇

 

4 minutes ago, Invictorum.7643 said:

Genuinely not sure if serious. Remove the single biggest effect of a skill, lower cost by 1 initiative. At that point, Shadowshot is legitimately just a better ability on the same weapon, if running D/P. P/P loses its ability to consistently throw blind out via blackpowder -> unload.

 

Black powder cannot have its smoke field removed without then rebalancing pistol offhand as a whole for thief. And even then, stealth based gameplay is the most core design FOR thief, there's an entire trait line built around it.

He doesn't understand what you want to tell him, because he only sees the game through his rose-colored glasses. He just has not understood in 11 years that the game was not developed just for him alone and PvP / WvW is not a Safespace. Thief is overall in a good spot Balance wise now, the only thing where anet should look is on bounding dodger (this one is indeed annoying ) + some DE Builds.... and to give the thief class more roles.

 

[Dawdler.8521]

10 minutes ago, Burial.1958 said:

Yeah i would also like a video where Dawdler show me this. 😇

Shouldnt it be thieves that are interested in showing that every other build except d/p is unviable?

I mean... Dont you care about anything else than d/p?

[andrewlcl.8176]

1 hour ago, senftube.6081 said:

u can wreck also peoples with pew pew rangers. U can also wreck peoples with swishh swooshh willbender. U can wreck them with any class because roughly every class has such instagib builds. 🥸 And with the ranger as example u can even 1 shot thiefs by pressing 1-2 buttons. xD even when they are in stealth when they used their daggerstorm or block. With Grenade spamm u can also 1 shot them pretty easy. But yeah here it is mostly okay....hypocrisy at its peak.

Ah and did you ever fought a thief with cele harbinger? xD

The only one I give credit for is the Sic 'em railgun rangers, who are also some of the worst killjoys in the WvW. I believe you responded to my post pretty fast because I literally edited it within minutes to talk about ranger. 

Don't be ridiculous about Willbender. I've never been erased by one as quick as with a thief, and I've made light work of many of them using a deadeye. 

Cele harb, also, deadeye. Put up rifle Kneel 4 wall, and just dance around them. Alternatively, counter the cele kitten with more cele kitten of your own, using cele p/p sneak attack daredevil. 

What's the problem again? 

[Teknomancer.4895]

On 7/23/2023 at 12:26 PM, joneirikb.7506 said:

I always disliked that reveal was part of specific skills/traits.

Always been curious how it would be if reveal was part of the combo system, like for example any combo with Light or Fire fields also reveals players in a certain aoe.

Perhaps that's the answer to boons as well? Just make all combos remove enemy boons at the same time. Bring combos back!

Or maybe convert the current stealth mechanic into being a boon instead...that way it's at least theoretically possible to strip it like any other boon and cause the reveal.

[Invictorum.7643]

10 minutes ago, andrewlcl.8176 said:

Don't be ridiculous about Willbender. I've never been erased by one as quick as with a thief, and I've made light work of many of them using a deadeye. 

You havent fought good ones then. Just like old guard, willbender can kill someone just as fast as thief.

 

12 minutes ago, andrewlcl.8176 said:

Put up rifle Kneel 4 wall, and just dance around them.

The singular rectangle wall that they can just walk around? Or use a non-projectile to get around? The problem with Cele Harb is purely a stat thing. Too many passive stat boosts on top of bloated boon design currently, makes cele harb have effectively as many stats in condi/power as dedicated stat sets, while maintaining all the other stuff.

 

Just now, Teknomancer.4895 said:

Or maybe convert the current stealth mechanic into being a boon instead...that way it's at least theoretically possible to strip it like any other boon and cause the reveal.

That would make concentration work on stealth. And boon copying abilities work on stealth. That would get out of hand REAL quick.

[Teknomancer.4895]

True, that shoots it down.

Never mind.

😁

[andrewlcl.8176]

9 hours ago, Invictorum.7643 said:

If a thief is dumping initiative on the opening burst, they lack any initiative to chase. And unless the thief dumps all initiative to get a full stealth off a Shadowshot? You WILL see them coming.

 

Player or golem?

Not sure why we we are mentioning getting stealth with Shadowshot, I presume Black Powder? Referring to my earlier post with the two combo examples from a thief's arsenal, the second combo demonstrates a chase! Heartseeker and Shadow Shot both gap closers, the latter being almost instacast.

Even assuming all initiative is used, we still have Infiltrator's Signet and Steal, both being skills with no activation time or after cast, and both 1200 range gap closers (or in a pinch, a disengage, if you target ambients/enemy NPCs or other enemy players). 

That's plenty of chase in a zero initiative thief. 

Damage figures are from combat log, against a player. 

7 hours ago, Invictorum.7643 said:

You havent fought good ones then. Just like old guard, willbender can kill someone just as fast as thief.

 

The singular rectangle wall that they can just walk around? Or use a non-projectile to get around? The problem with Cele Harb is purely a stat thing. Too many passive stat boosts on top of bloated boon design currently, makes cele harb have effectively as many stats in condi/power as dedicated stat sets, while maintaining all the other stuff.

In the case of guardians, then unfortunately/fortunately, I have run into at least 4 times the number of rapid kill thieves. 

The difference, which I'm starting to get to, lies in skill activation times (and after cast times) and even in animations. It is more feasible to get away or survive an initial burst if it's slower to chain and if it's more visible. I might understand the old guard you're referring to, but it's helluva slow compared to a thief. 

I've sometimes quietly wished Sniper's Cover was a circle but do we realise how laughably obnoxious that would be? A harb can attempt to walk around the wall. But! 

The DE can choose to teleport forwards or backwards through it, a distance of 600 units. The difference is mobility. Assuming not revealed, doubles up into a stealth combo. The Sniper's Cover + Death's Advance combo is even more powerful when you run Shadow Arts because it costs you almost zero initiative to endlessly reposition. 

Meanwhile, you build stacks of Spider Venom that lets you heal when you eventually attack again. DE is so kitten obnoxious the only reason why I've lost more fights than I should, is because I'm one of the worst players you'll ever meet. 

On the topic of bloated skills and Cele, fully agree. Power creep in GW2 has reached laughable levels and is out of control. Things have reached a new level of stupid with harb, willbender, catalyst, power virt, even power vindi. And there's some quiet performers murdering people with their untamed. They just don't shout it from the rooftops. 

[babana.7521]

On 7/21/2023 at 2:27 AM, Random dude.5089 said:

So when is the stealth issues are gonna be adressed ? why does some classes have stealth reveals and others don't ? why not give everyone abilities to reveal but in the exchange of an mount of damage or survivibility , there is a lot of traits that are never used in wvw or pvp , or even pve , why not replace them with some 3 or 5 second of reveal debuff , either it it me that is bad or everyone getting bodied by deadeye and daredevils ? they just stealth burst , stealth burst , even with a trailbrazer build i get bodied with 2.4k armor , i understand that thiefs are very squishy thats why they compensate with their stealth , im not hating on the class , it take skills to be good at what its currently doing , but it feels unfair that not even one trait some classes have that can stand a chance against that , everything i feel have counters , exept stealth , i realy hope anet adress this issues , and maybe you guys tell me what do you guys think about this stealth spam every 2 seconds , not the mention the insane amount of mobility combined with it.

Use Cele stats build which is deemed OP to kill the stealth players. 
 

[Burial.1958]

On 7/23/2023 at 10:06 AM, Burnfall.9573 said:

The more Anet continues to put up with Guild Wars 2 Toxic Stealth Design, the more I have been exploring other gaming company competitive games who do does not have that in their game. 11 Years of Anet putting up with this  is enough for anyone to not be Loyal to Anet. 

I never sworn Loyalty to Anet: Guild Wars 2, I sworn Loyalty to healthy gaming experience including to putting the players experience first before profit.

Look at stealth Mechanic...11 years...with no rework

Look at Thief Profession....being the most broken design Profession in the game

Look at Guardian Profession newest bad design specialization-Willbender-a circus clown jumping all around the place.

It is no surprise after all the years including present day.....Anet Loyalty is in keeping Bad Design in the game

It will never end, Anet will keep adding more and more Bad Design into the game. It will never be enough, never will.

So much for putting the player, the Community experience first..

 

~~Remember, Be Loyal To Those Who Takes Trash Out~~

 

Look here Burnfall i did made a actual Stealth video for you 😇 So now u have some actual footage and don't have to use some over 6 year old vids. xD

 

 

Edited August 1, 2023 by Burial.1958

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

39 minutes ago, Burial.1958 said:

Look here Burnfall i did made a actual Stealth video for you 😇 So now u have some actual footage and don't have to use some over 6 year old vids. xD

 

 

Class that has 0 counters, thanks for providing proof of that.
Can we finally delete teefs and stealth from game?

[Burial.1958]

2 hours ago, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

Class that has 0 counters, thanks for providing proof of that.
Can we finally delete teefs and stealth from game?

0 counter.........

Look the video again and tell me that u see what my opponents failed at. Expecially the two at the sentry. xD This vid is about how bad the lvl is today. And im no way one of the top thiefs.

Even if the thief is deleted, it still would not make you better.

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

30 minutes ago, Burial.1958 said:

0 counter.........

Look the video again and tell me that u see what my opponents failed at. Expecially the two at the sentry. xD This vid is about how bad the lvl is today. And im no way one of the top thiefs.

Even if the thief is deleted, it still would not make you better.

Ye, what I see is kitten load of defensive mechanics that no other class can deal with in any reasonable way, anything else?
I don't know, getting rid of that mosquitos will make my health better in long run, what's your point?
It's really amusing to see how blind people are to some truly broken mechanics in game like stealth.

[Junkpile.7439]

Always wanted to play thief, but didn't never find motivation learn how to do 4 perfect heartseekkers in smoke field. Looks so amateur and messy when some thief won't use about face and just do 4  heartseekkers in random directions.

Edited August 1, 2023 by Junkpile.7439

[Zekent.3652]

9 hours ago, Burial.1958 said:

Look here Burnfall i did made a actual Stealth video for you 😇 So now u have some actual footage and don't have to use some over 6 year old vids. xD

 

 

So... thief is playable without stealth spam, curious since some forum thieves says that thief is nothing without the stealth spam.

Man, i wish that i was able to fight these thieves in WvW but all i see is just stealth spam thieves, i wanna fight something that i can actually see lol.

[ilMasa.2546]

Member when ranger's traps could be thrown and trappers rune were introduced in the game? Anet changed how traps worked right after cos that combo gave so much survability and repositioning power,it was insane (and ofc extremely fun while it lasted,if you were playing a trapper ranger back then).

So just like traps were reworked,why is it that hard to rework stealth in a good way? So that thieves can still have access to invisibility, without being able to spam it 24/7?

Cos at the end of the day you guys have too much:
- insane mobility
- insane disengage
- spammable stealth

You have pistol 5,you can steal and get stealth,blinding pownder,smoke screen,shadow refuge,hide in shadows,cloack and dagger....and if it gets to hot shadowstep and bow 5 to travel almost the same length of  "teleport to friend " ... i mean come on. lol

Edited August 2, 2023 by ilMasa.2546

[bq pd.2148]

13 minutes ago, ilMasa.2546 said:

Member when ranger's traps could be thrown and trappers rune were introduced in the game? Anet changed how traps worked right after cos that combo gave so much survability and repositioning power,it was insane (and ofc extremely fun while it lasted,if you were playing a trapper ranger back then).

So just like traps were reworked,why is it that hard to rework stealth in a good way? So that thieves can still have access to invisibility, without being able to spam it 24/7?

Cos at the end of the day you guys have too much:
- insane mobility
- insane disengage
- spammable stealth

You have pistol 5,you can steal and get stealth,blinding pownder,smoke screen,shadow refuge,hide in shadows,cloack and dagger....and if it gets to hot shadowstep and bow 5 to travel almost the same length of  "teleport to friend " ... i mean come on. lol

changing traps from being thrown to be on your place is a very minor thing compared to 'rework stealth in a good way'.

i think if one were to rework the frequent stealth access one would have to come up with a different trigger for everything in shadow arts or rework our defensive traitline from the ground up, additionally we would need another option to access stealth attacks frequently for the way deadeye interacts with them or rework deadeye again as the initial one did not enhance stealth attacks.

either way unless a rework provides thief with more staying power, the ability to trade and recover from blows, they would still end up slippery and nothing about the complains would change.

[Junkpile.7439]

10 hours ago, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

Class that has 0 counters, thanks for providing proof of that.
Can we finally delete teefs and stealth from game?

Well he duel against some zero rank engineer and run with guild mate. Try to show that weak thief can't solo roam and can't duel against high rank players. 

[cyberzombie.7348]

1 hour ago, bq pd.2148 said:

either way unless a rework provides thief with more staying power, the ability to trade and recover from blows, they would still end up slippery and nothing about the complains would change.

This , I used to have builds that as long as I stayed aggressive I had as much staying power as a warrior, but everything that enabled it got nerfed. Most notably the acro traitline since HoT, and dps nerfs which also indirectly nerfed malice signet and invigorating precision.

[senftube.6081]

17 hours ago, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

Class that has 0 counters, thanks for providing proof of that.
Can we finally delete teefs and stealth from game?

He even had reveal because of sentry and they where two so 2vs1. But instead of pressure Yuber they are attacking the sentry.  So they took away the reveal which is stupid x 100000000.............and what did these players at the beginning?  Wtf. So some players in WvW are just not good and do not turn on the head. But come to the forum afterwards and cry about everything.

18 hours ago, Burial.1958 said:

Look here Burnfall i did made a actual Stealth video for you 😇 So now u have some actual footage and don't have to use some over 6 year old vids. xD

 

 

What an Intro 😶 Hope there will be a volume 3 😇