LFG System Abuse

[Shaogin.2679]

Can you please for the love of God take all those kitten kitten lfg spam posts for raids and strike statics put them in their own lfg? Like, I have to apply the -{ filter and still a ton get through.  If you want these bots to have a channel, make them a channel. But when I want to from a group, these spammers get in the way Anet. Please, make a lfg group and put all of those ssssssad losers in that group swo the rest of us can form a party.

The above original post was made while enjoying some drinks, so is not all that coherent. I would like to further clarify and update this post with some information I found while looking around on this topic. So to start with, this is what I was able to find concerning Anet's official stance on LFG System Abuse from Gaile Gray on the old forums:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Policy-on-the-LFG-Tool

Quote

The LFG (Looking for Group) Tool is intended to be used to help put together a group to enjoy game content, such as Open World, Fractals of the Mists, or PvP. Over the last several weeks players have expressed increased concern about abuse of the LFG Tool as a growing number of individuals have begun using the LFG Tool to advertise the sale of in-game items.

Clearly, if a group-formation tool is flooded with item sales and trade messages, it will be difficult for players to use it for its intended purpose. Beyond that, trades and sales initiated in the tool are at high risk for scams. While our Customer Support Team will take action on the accounts of players who engage in scams and other disallowed activities, they generally will not be able to replace items of players who fall victim to these unscrupulous individuals.

Our policy: Players may use the LFG Tool only for the formation of a group.

Players may use the tool to sell a spot in a group, but they may not use it to sell or trade items or for any other unintended purposes. Doing so will result in an account infraction.

You can help us reduce the spam and refocus the tool by reporting individuals who are misusing the LFG Tool. Simply click on the name of that player in your chat window, right click, choose “Report,” and then choose “LFG System Abuse.” With your help we’ll be able to keep the LFG Tool clear for your use in forming groups.

 

Quote

Advertising an access portal is not allowed.
Guild Recruitment is not allowed.
Both are unrelated to forming a group and therefore are not part of the intended purpose of the Looking for Group Tool.

So, a few takeaways I get from that are:

• Players posting guild recruitment ads in LFG channels other than the Guild Recruitment LFG are abusing the LFG system and can be reported for doing so.
• Flooding the LFG channels with sales ads does make it difficult for players to use it for its intended purpose.
• Players can use LFG to sell a spot in a group but may not use it to sell items.

So just based on that, my position stands that there is nothing wrong with players advertising to sell raids and whatnot, but they should have their own channel to do so. That way, the Raid LFG and others can be cleared of such clutter and make it easier for people to quickly find others to group up with, as the channel was intended for. I did run into another issue, however, when I started looking more into these raid seller posts and how they fit within the rules laid out by Gaile's posts. Now I am more in the boat of thinking they also qualify as LFG system abuse. Gaile specifies that players can use the tool to sell a spot in a group and that the tool is to only be used for the formation of a group. So at the time of writing this, these are the posts I am seeing in the raid LFG (edited to remove specific guild or player info):

Quote

[Guild] book online!  <website link> Selling: Fast Friendly Raids (armor/ring collections) | Achievements | Strikes | HTCM| Raid/Strike CMs | discount bundles | Fractals | mail: Player.1234 | Discord: <discord link>

[Guild] Selling Raids: Legendary Armor & Ring collections | All CMs & Achieves | Fractals | Strike Missions | DRMs. For more Info & Schedule, Mail or Whisper "Player". Discord: <discord link>

[Guild] Selling Raids & CMs | Strikes & CMs | Fractals | Dungeons | Achieves | Legendary Armor | <website link> | Mail Player.1234 or Player.4321 for pricing and booking.

[Guild] Selling Raids | Fractals | Strikes | Legendary Armor/Ring | Achievements | CMs & more! Join us at <discord link> or check our Bundle Discounts: <website link>

[Guild] Selling Raids | Leg Gear/Ring in 6 weeks | Bundle Weekly Clears | Fractal & Strikes | All Achievements and CM's | <website link> / player.1234 or player.4321 <discord link>

So looking at these raid-selling ads, we can see these players are not actively forming a group or attempting to sell an open slot in a group. They are selling a service, and in order to purchase that service, you must contact the player or visit their website or Discord, purchase the product you want, and then schedule a date and time to do it. There is no group being formed in this instance. The LFG post is nothing more than an advertisement taking up space that is meant to redirect the player to what is essentially the guild's storefront. I might add that it is not even raids being solely advertised here, despite it being posted on the raid channel. And since the groups are never actually being formed, the posts just remain up. I also noticed that each player with such a post is just parked in a guild hall or player hub and not actively doing anything as well. They are essentially just ad bots for their guild services (yes, I know they are not actually bots, calm down).

So if you want to get technical on this, then these posts are still classified as LFG System Abuse and should be reported as such. But again, I would rather just see these posts moved to their own LFG channel, much like how the guild recruitment posts received their own channel. Doing so would clear up some clutter from the LFG and make it easier for people searching for such services to find them, considering they are selling more than just raid runs. Such a change is beneficial to all parties involved really. Also, "Just block them" is an absolutely ridiculous solution. Just because someone posts a raid-selling ad does not mean you no longer want any contact with that player. 

I think that should clear up everything and shine some more light on what I was trying to talk about originally when I was in a bit of an incoherent state.

Edited July 31, 2023 by Shaogin.2679
Clarity

[IAmNotMatthew.1058]

It's technically allowed with selling clears. If you block the person their squad never appears in the LFG. That's the only thing you can do.

[Killthehealersffs.8940]

I wouldn't say no , to people pushing the LFG from choosing  3 buttons {nametags}:

a) create LFG group

b) Create LI-LFG (the user put the amount) (semi transparent to whoever don't have the amount + has an official Dps addon)

b) anything else (RP-Selling-Hardcore-Fooling around) (the Rp should get his own category after a while)

And automatically  you cannot see the third option . And having a mod at odd hours checking for 2-3 min if they are complaint

 

Spoiler

It will a better tool rather than people boycoting an auto-lfg (just because they wont be able to sell) , or offering solutions like "remain the same + the expirianced group's  leaders can put an li requirements before people can push the  "join button"... in this UI jungle of mess)

 

Edit: And who knows . We might aquire a stone in the future that automatically when pushed , put as in the LFG listings with the most basic message ,and checks for other other general messages to join us to (or internal different seconary  system that acts as a different lfg and copies from the frontend and searches every 1 min for the same simple-lfg-nametages), without seeing the LFG UI. It has an internal cd called "power" that get filled by playing pvp-instanced-ow + having some specific achivements (deny request of spoof accounts +people spamming leaving / rejoin to find the perfect 30k dpsgroup) to and has different color ui for some reason...

 

 

 

Edited July 23, 2023 by Killthehealersffs.8940

[Ashen.2907]

I play strikes quite a bit, and yes there are advertisements for static groups, but theyve never prevented me from creating my own group or joining another's. How are they stopping you OP?

[Colin.4568]

Categories will change nothing, just look at the number of players posting training runs in the experienced section. If 2 sections are too much to handle for people, imagine introducing new ones. What you are asking for is what the community is asking for a long time already, a full revamp of the LFG for something user-friendly, a lot of good ideas have already been proposed many times and hopefully anet will consider this as part of the QoL changes they want to bring 🙂

[Sobx.1758]

4 hours ago, Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

I wouldn't say no , to people pushing the LFG from choosing  3 buttons {nametags}:

a) create LFG group

b) Create LI-LFG (the user put the amount) (semi transparent to whoever don't have the amount + has an official Dps addon)

Is it currently somehow unclear for you which squads have requirements and which don't? And why is suddenly "LI" something you want to officially support regardless of the content? I don't see how that change makes any sense.

[ProbabilityMoon.5796]

10 hours ago, IAmNotMatthew.1058 said:

It's technically allowed with selling clears. If you block the person their squad never appears in the LFG. That's the only thing you can do.

I have probably > 100 people on my blocklist from lfg raid/strike/fracs seller ads alone. It doesn't do anything, the same guild ads pop up every day. I can list them by heart: MC, Rise, oH, etc. These ppl probably have hundreds of alt accounts that they rotate to spam the lfg. Yes, it's absolutely the worst feeling to open the lfg and see maybe one or two legitimate entries in a sea of ads. Anet clearly don't give the slightest kitten about this, the community has pleaded with them for years to do something about it and it's fallen on deaf ears. I assume quite a few ppl actually buy gold for cash to pay these sellers so it's quite lucrative for Anet. I guess this game is for sellers and afk botters now.

[Zekent.3652]

Just block them.

[Shaogin.2679]

On 7/23/2023 at 6:32 AM, Ashen.2907 said:

I play strikes quite a bit, and yes there are advertisements for static groups, but theyve never prevented me from creating my own group or joining another's. How are they stopping you OP?

One, I have no memory of making this post and am pretty sure this happened on a late night of drinks and gaming. Two, going back and reading my original post, it looks like you are intentionally avoiding the point being made. I never said they prevent me or stop me from doing the content, I said they get in the way. And honestly, they do. That is an objective truth. Whenever a player wants to play raids or strikes and goes to the lfg to look for a group to join, they first have to filter out all of the advertisements for people selling runs or advertising their guilds. Even on the forums we have a separate category for that. 

I suppose a better question would be, what is the downside of there being a specific sub-category for these advertisements? I get it, most people are here to disagree because they love arguing online. But if raids and strikes had Experienced, Training, and some third Advertise tab, what negative impact does that then have on the players? I thought people in this game were all for making lfg improvements? 

Also, one last thing, those saying "Just block them" is horrible advice. Just because someone makes an advertisement post on lfg does not mean you never want any contact with that player again. That is just a completely ridiculous thing to suggest when there is a much more simple solution.

[Tdub.7628]

@Shaogin.2679 

Edited. Unnecessary for topic.

Edited July 31, 2023 by Tdub.7628

[Shadowmoon.7986]

In my opinion, raid boosting advertising in game hurts the raid community. It normalizes buying clears, so newcomers feel they have to buy them so they can access kp to get groups.  

[Tdub.7628]

@Shadowmoon.7986

Make groups with no KP. 

I've never bought a kill. Newcomers shouldn't either. I require no KP and no specific builds.

 

[Shaogin.2679]

5 hours ago, Tdub.7628 said:

@Shaogin.2679 

It doesn't sound like you want to make any personal changes to your gameplay.

In what world does this comment have anything to do with anything I have stated thus far? I don't know if you got lost and wandered into the wrong forum thread or what. 🤣

[Mell.4873]

On 7/26/2023 at 5:54 AM, Tdub.7628 said:

@Shadowmoon.7986

Make groups with no KP. 

I've never bought a kill. Newcomers shouldn't either. I require no KP and no specific builds.

 

I think alot of people still think KP are still a thing. Even in fractals it's pretty easy to run and complete them without the required achievement. 99 and 100 are little hard to open since you need someone with the achievements. 

I have talked to many people on Discord who buy Raids clears so they can complete Legendary Armor instead of running them normally. 

[Tdub.7628]

On 7/25/2023 at 5:52 PM, Shaogin.2679 said:

In what world does this comment have anything to do with anything I have stated thus far? I don't know if you got lost and wandered into the wrong forum thread or what. 🤣

I saw a post about abuse. Then read a quality of life suggestion for the game....

Don't complain about something other players are doing in game that's not "abuse".

Personally I'm not stoked about raid sellers but I'm not spending game time applying filters. Im starting my own groups and killing baddies.

[Tdub.7628]

12 hours ago, Mell.4873 said:

I think alot of people still think KP are still a thing. Even in fractals it's pretty easy to run and complete them without the required achievement. 99 and 100 are little hard to open since you need someone with the achievements. 

I have talked to many people on Discord who buy Raids clears so they can complete Legendary Armor instead of running them normally. 

Oof that's hard to hear. Yea KP exist, which isn't fun for new people. 

I wish more players would step up and take commanding roles. I try to do my part but a lot of commanders play with friends on discord, so PUG LFG is sort of empty.

Getting off topic oops.

[bruakumfd.4817]

17 minutes ago, Tdub.7628 said:

I saw a post about abuse. Then read a quality of life suggestion for the game....

Don't complain about something other players are doing in game that's not "abuse".

Personally I'm not stoked about raid sellers but I'm not spending game time applying filters. Im starting my own groups and killing baddies.

Yeah, maybe read the FAQ on this topic first. Believe it or not, it's actually supposed to be against the rules to sell a run.

[Mell.4873]

4 hours ago, Tdub.7628 said:

Oof that's hard to hear. Yea KP exist, which isn't fun for new people. 

I wish more players would step up and take commanding roles. I try to do my part but a lot of commanders play with friends on discord, so PUG LFG is sort of empty.

Getting off topic oops.

Well, I hope they don't exist since I contribute all my KP decorations to my guild.

[Shaogin.2679]

14 hours ago, Tdub.7628 said:

I saw a post about abuse. Then read a quality of life suggestion for the game....

Don't complain about something other players are doing in game that's not "abuse".

Personally I'm not stoked about raid sellers but I'm not spending game time applying filters. Im starting my own groups and killing baddies.

So then I am going to assume you haven't read anything here. I am still doing pug raids in addition to my static raids. The issue is all these posts advertising raid sells and guild ads clogging up the lfg when people just want to find a group to run with. It would be more beneficial if those raid sellers and guild advertisers had their own channels instead of clogging up the normal lfg channels. It also just gives a horrible first impression when new players want to try raids and all they see is these ads. Those players have came here to the forums, Facebook, and Reddit to complain about that very thing.

So, there is an established and completely legitimate issue. The fix (though not absolute) is pretty simple and does not negatively impact anyone. And then there are people like you that come in talking about "change your gameplay" and "form your own group". So, unless you are 12 or just here to troll, I'm sure you can see how nothing you've said has anything to do with this post.

[Tdub.7628]

@Shaogin.2679 

Sounds like a great suggestion.

I feel it doesn't qualify as abuse, as the title suggests.

If the title said something more along the lines of the suggestion it may get implemented sooner or get more attention of the readers.

Also your right about that comment I made. Must have been a weird day for me. I think I worded it bad.

Edited July 31, 2023 by Tdub.7628

[Shaogin.2679]

10 hours ago, Tdub.7628 said:

@Shaogin.2679 

Sounds like a great suggestion.

I feel it doesn't qualify as abuse, as the title suggests.

If the title said something more along the lines of the suggestion it may get implemented sooner or get more attention of the readers.

Also your right about that comment I made. Must have been a weird day for me. I think I worded it bad.

Oh the original post was made during a night of heavy drinking and gaming as I explained in a previous post. lol. I could perhaps throw an update in the original post.

Edit: Upon further research, it may actually be LFG system abuse. Updating original post now.

Edited July 31, 2023 by Shaogin.2679

[Shadowmoon.7986]

Ban advertising raid boosting like ff14 does. 

Edit: adding FF14s policy for context

It is prohibited to advertise using the Party Finder to offer help to clear duties or obtain items (to help people clear raid content or obtain items by having them join your party). A penalty will be issued if the act has been confirmed.

 

This prohibits the act of advertising such support and does not prohibit those asking for help themselves through the use of the Party Finder.

 

It is not a violation to ask for help or to offer a reward when asking for help, as in the following examples that do not violate our policy. However, in the examples that do violate the policy, the person offering help is advertising their services, which is prohibited.

 

Examples of violations:

• Selling [duty] clear for 1 million gil.
• Selling [duty] clear and/or offering the associated rewards from [content]. Join for more info/details.

 

Examples of non-violation:

• I'm new, can anyone help me clear [duty]?
• Help me clear [duty] and I'll pay you 1 million gil!
• I'd like to get some items from [duty]. will pay 1 million gil if I can get it.

 

Please note that Square Enix may conduct investigations and issue a penalty in its discretion even if a report has not been filed.

Edited July 31, 2023 by Shadowmoon.7986
Added FF14 policy for context

[Sobx.1758]

14 hours ago, Shaogin.2679 said:

So then I am going to assume you haven't read anything here. I am still doing pug raids in addition to my static raids. The issue is all these posts advertising raid sells and guild ads clogging up the lfg when people just want to find a group to run with. It would be more beneficial if those raid sellers and guild advertisers had their own channels instead of clogging up the normal lfg channels. It also just gives a horrible first impression when new players want to try raids and all they see is these ads. Those players have came here to the forums, Facebook, and Reddit to complain about that very thing.

So, there is an established and completely legitimate issue. The fix (though not absolute) is pretty simple and does not negatively impact anyone. And then there are people like you that come in talking about "change your gameplay" and "form your own group". So, unless you are 12 or just here to troll, I'm sure you can see how nothing you've said has anything to do with this post.

I don't think it's such a huge deal, but it can be annoying at times, so it would be nice for anet to actually make a clear decision about it, whatever it would be. Want to make selling clears forbidden? Then announce and start enforcing it. Want to officially allow it? Then make a separate tab for it. Either way I agree that they shouldn't be clogging regular lfg tabs.

[Shaogin.2679]

1 hour ago, Sobx.1758 said:

I don't think it's such a huge deal, but it can be annoying at times, so it would be nice for anet to actually make a clear decision about it, whatever it would be. Want to make selling clears forbidden? Then announce and start enforcing it. Want to officially allow it? Then make a separate tab for it. Either way I agree that they shouldn't be clogging regular lfg tabs.

Personally, I don't care about banning raid sellers. If that is how they want to make their gold, then so be it. But there really should be a separate channel for that. 

Now that I think about it though, there does need to be some enforcement in the lfg channels, because the people advertising their guilds there are doing so despite a guild advertisement lfg already existing. I actually completely forgot about that channel. Looking further into this, it appears that people advertising their guilds on LFG channels other than Guild Recruitment is a reportable offense and defined as LFG system abuse according to an older forum post I found from Gaile Gray.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Policy-on-the-LFG-Tool

So in that post, it starts off with

Quote

The LFG (Looking for Group) Tool is intended to be used to help put together a group to enjoy game content, such as Open World, Fractals of the Mists, or PvP. Over the last several weeks players have expressed increased concern about abuse of the LFG Tool as a growing number of individuals have begun using the LFG Tool to advertise the sale of in-game items.

Clearly, if a group-formation tool is flooded with item sales and trade messages, it will be difficult for players to use it for its intended purpose. Beyond that, trades and sales initiated in the tool are at high risk for scams. While our Customer Support Team will take action on the accounts of players who engage in scams and other disallowed activities, they generally will not be able to replace items of players who fall victim to these unscrupulous individuals.

Our policy: Players may use the LFG Tool only for the formation of a group.

Players may use the tool to sell a spot in a group, but they may not use it to sell or trade items or for any other unintended purposes. Doing so will result in an account infraction.

You can help us reduce the spam and refocus the tool by reporting individuals who are misusing the LFG Tool. Simply click on the name of that player in your chat window, right click, choose “Report,” and then choose “LFG System Abuse.” With your help we’ll be able to keep the LFG Tool clear for your use in forming groups.

So first thing I noted is that they do acknowledge that flooding LFG channels with sales ads makes it difficult for players to use it for its intended purposes. So she goes on to say that the LFG tool is only to be used for the formation of a group, but players may also use it to sell a spot in a group. The issue with this is, players are not simply selling a spot in a group they are forming at that moment. They are advertising a service that they provide. They are not looking to form a group and run the raid or strike right away. They are redirecting you to their website or Discord or guild so that you may purchase their service. As such, their ads always stay up in the LFG, and they could be falling into that gray area now where they are indeed guilty of LFG system abuse as defined by Anet. For instance, here is one of the ads currently present in the Raids LFG (personal info will be edited out):

Quote

[Guild] book online!  guild-sales.com Selling: Fast Friendly Raids (armor/ring collections) | Achievements | Strikes | HTCM| Raid/Strike CMs | discount bundles | Fractals | mail: Player.1234 | Discord: Player.Guild

So as you can see, they are not using the LFG to form a group. They are using it to redirect you to their storefront and sell you a service. This is not simply selling an open slot in a group being formed. And again, if they want to sell raids, have at it, but they should have a proper channel in which to do so instead of cluttering the channel people are using to actually form groups. It is also just a bad look for new players when they go looking to join raids for the first time, which is something they have publicly voiced their opinions on for some time now.

She also clarifies later in the thread stating:

Quote

Advertising an access portal is not allowed.
Guild Recruitment is not allowed.
Both are unrelated to forming a group and therefore are not part of the intended purpose of the Looking for Group Tool.

So it does appear for sure that guilds should not be posting recruitment messages in those LFG channels and we can just go ahead and report them for LFG system abuse.

Honestly, I should probably go back and update my original post and title at some point with everything that I'm seeing now.

[TheNurgle.4825]

LFG tool in GW2 needs major rework. Also anyone can create group, but most ppl will not join group without commander tag and that cost 300g so new ppl have harder time to create their own groups. Without commander tag you can't have even stupid Ready check.

Some project manager needs to make decision about LFG tool be it improvement of current one with setting rules and enforce them or completly rework it and split it between open world and instanced content.