Why there is such disbalance between melee and range?

[Batalix.2873]

18 minutes ago, Gaiawolf.8261 said:

I know, I was mostly just ranting that I usually have to stand in a melee boon ball with my rifle. And I'm rather salty about that. I should have used an emote with my comment. 😉

Edit: To be fair, melee weapons do get used in wvw too, but it's the same problem. The zergs stay at range, and your melee weapons are literally useless until a push.

All good. I am a bit salty about it too. I actually find most instanced content to be quite boring as a result of boon-balling, which itself is a consequence of how boons, healing, and tanking have all been made to be fairly proximity, hands-off based.

And yes, I have noticed that problem in WvW as well. In general, WvW needs (a) more features, structures, kits, and (b) more classes that are designed to screw with mobility options and break up boonballs. Imo on of the biggest missed opportunities was making WB leave behind fire trails (kinda generic and lame) and not impassible light walls. Imagine a small troupe of WBs just going into a boonball and throwing up a maze of walls. Would be awesome.

[Ten.2617]

On 7/26/2023 at 2:40 AM, SappFire.5793 said:

Like, why ever pick melee builds over ranged when last have more damage, boon coverage and utilities?

Actually, the Engineer's Rifle doesn't have that good damage that had right after its "modernization". Even with berzerker gears, the damage is way far (likely half) of the damege of some others ranged types like Ranger's LB, Mesmer's GS, Thief's Rifle, Elementalist's Staff and Warrior's Rifle.

It's not the Engineer's case, but you might be right about some types.

 

Edited August 1, 2023 by Ze Ninguem.6708
Fix misspelling

[Batalix.2873]

On 8/1/2023 at 9:05 AM, Ze Ninguem.6708 said:

Actually, the Engineer's Rifle doesn't have that good damage that had right after its "modernization". Even with berzerker gears, the damage is way far (likely half) of the damege of some others ranged types like Ranger's LB, Mesmer's GS, Thief's Rifle, Elementalist's Staff and Warrior's Rifle.

It's not the Engineer's case, but you might be right about some types.

 

Comparing damage ceiling/bench is kind of missing the point, though.

If a player can afk with rifle AA, avoid interacting with most mechanics, and still clear the content (albeit maybe more slowly), history has repeatedly shown they will do that over all the hassle of learning and interacting with content.

[JTGuevara.9018]

Because in this action-oriented game, there is no counter to anything ranged. Mobility and AoEs are why melee suffers. Melee sacrifices more in just getting to the target, never mind actually hitting it.

But people want to sit there with a straight face and tell me that this combat system is "good".

[Antycypator.9874]

On 7/30/2023 at 10:23 PM, Batalix.2873 said:

For very mobile fights, melee rotations are easily screwed with.

Then bring a proper class instead of calling for nerf everyone that does something better than you. Deadeye doing good damage? Just nerf it and never mention that DE has literally zero cleave and has to pick targets 1 by 1, while Reaper can burst 50k against 5 targets at once. Don't forget that there is more content than Raids and Strike Missions, so balance should never be based on golem benchmarks or only Raids.

This is just the class design and there is no "ideal" class for everything.

On 8/3/2023 at 10:52 PM, JTGuevara.9018 said:

there is no counter to anything ranged

Have you ever heard about Reflecting projectiles? About projectiles being blocked by terrain or objects between you and your target?

Edited August 5, 2023 by Antycypator.9874

[Batalix.2873]

2 hours ago, Antycypator.9874 said:

Then bring a proper class instead of calling for nerf everyone that does something better than you. Deadeye doing good damage? Just nerf it and never mention that DE has literally zero cleave and has to pick targets 1 by 1, while Reaper can burst 50k against 5 targets at once. Don't forget that there is more content than Raids and Strike Missions, so balance should never be based on golem benchmarks or only Raids.

This is just the class design and there is no "ideal" class for everything.

Have you ever heard about Reflecting projectiles? About projectiles being blocked by terrain or objects between you and your target?

The moment the game gives me a meta class that I actually enjoy playing, as opposed to just obligatorily bringing and feeling gross about being one of a million people playing Virt because "it's easy(!)", I will.

Until then, no. I don't care about being good if being good means building incoherent job fantasies, or spastically weaponskill swapping, or otherwise just sitting and AAing while my Mech does most of the work for me.

Sorry if I just don't like most of the job fantasies in this game. I think GW2 has done a  poor job of railroading players into really unsatisfying kits and rotations.

[AliamRationem.5172]

15 hours ago, Antycypator.9874 said:

Then bring a proper class instead of calling for nerf everyone that does something better than you. Deadeye doing good damage? Just nerf it and never mention that DE has literally zero cleave and has to pick targets 1 by 1, while Reaper can burst 50k against 5 targets at once. Don't forget that there is more content than Raids and Strike Missions, so balance should never be based on golem benchmarks or only Raids.

This is just the class design and there is no "ideal" class for everything.

Have you ever heard about Reflecting projectiles? About projectiles being blocked by terrain or objects between you and your target?

If a class deals too much damage in single-target scenarios it can make it so that stacking that class provides a clear advantage.  Whenever this occurs, they tend to nerf the damage that class deals, regardless of whether they have cleave or other utility. 

That is not to say that they don't take into account the other advantages/disadvantages a class has.  This is what is known as a power budget.  Unfortunately, there are a lot of different ways of evaluating these non-damage assets and there are a lot of classes and builds to juggle.  So, the priority is always going to be on bringing those high-end outliers in single-target damage in line and there will always be balancing of these secondary considerations that doesn't add up.  For example, the fact that condi sword weaver is significantly below power sword and condi scepter, even though the former has an easier rotation and better burst while the latter has an easier rotation and range.

 

[Bankrotas.8215]

I think PoF with bounties went the right direction. With targets being damageable for cq or range. Mind you not enough, no reflects in melee mode.

[Sansar.1302]

All ranged dmg should be nerfed with a 20% to 40% damage shave

[Furball.1236]

Play ranged if you like ranged combat. Play melee if you like melee combat.

That's it for the open world. If you're talking about instanced contents, almost all encounters allow you to keep attacking in melee >95% of the time. You don't need to go back all the way by 600 units to where there's no AoE around you at all. Only exception is fractal 100 CM and it's one instance.

If this is difficult for you, practice with a ranged class before getting into melee.

Edited August 26, 2023 by Furball.1236

[Mell.4873]

3 hours ago, Furball.1236 said:

Play ranged if you like ranged combat. Play melee if you like melee combat.

That's it for the open world. If you're talking about instanced contents, almost all encounters allow you to keep attacking in melee >95% of the time. You don't need to go back all the way by 600 units to where there's no AoE around you at all. Only exception is fractal 100 CM and it's one instance.

If this is difficult for you, practice with a ranged class before getting into melee.

Even with CM 100 the best strategies are to stack in Melee so you can cleanse conditions. Most melee classes have a leap or teleport to re-engage so playing ranged doesn't give you any inherent advantage when you split. Unless your group is bad and you end up soloing it. 

Edited August 26, 2023 by Mell.4873

[Batalix.2873]

On 8/26/2023 at 2:26 PM, Mell.4873 said:

Even with CM 100 the best strategies are to stack in Melee so you can cleanse conditions. Most melee classes have a leap or teleport to re-engage so playing ranged doesn't give you any inherent advantage when you split. Unless your group is bad and you end up soloing it. 

Kind of a false binary.

If your group is disorganized and not everyone is stacking clearly or knows the strat, ranged keeps you alive longer and doing damage longer if you haven't learned the fight yet.

If your group isn't *so* bad that only a few people are dead, or you've reached the last phase of a messy run and just want to burn, being able to move around and avoid mechs to just try to keep DPS up is much easier with range.

As a consequence of these many situations where flexibility to disengage melee doesn't totally tank DPS, this also makes ranged builds good for a lot of pugs. For both beginners and more experienced raiders, either to stay alive so as not to be a burden, or to stay alive after the burdens have already been dropped on you.

Truth told, I haven't even played Strikes in a while so I have no idea where the pug meta is at or where it crept to. But I can absolutely vouch for ranged being preferred in raids.

[Widebody.5071]

On 7/27/2023 at 12:16 AM, Alcatraznc.3869 said:

 

Yes let's just nuke everything that has ranged so that every melee player can feel better. 

Actually that's what they did melee especially warrior, they nerfed them to satisfy the ranged and casters in game. At one time warriors were the fastest runners in game but the argument [they wear heavy armor they shouldn't  run that fast] fixed that problem. They had excellent condi damage with rifle but that was too many bleed stacks that pierced, broke away their main offensive attribute (adrenaline), took away the might attribute and changed it into power, ferocity and flow complicating might generation the list goes on and on...

All due to casters and ranged players complaining in the forum. All I can offer you is "Welcome to the club". 

There are those who follow you around and watch your game play for whatever reason they have, but I doubt it's for any good.

Edited August 28, 2023 by Widebody.5071

[Zebulous.2934]

Hmm, I haven't played eod yet.  I don't recall any boss battles that weren't large open spaces with no cover.  Sometimes a boss will drop an obstruction that breaks line of sight, but that is usually a gimmick to allow players to avoid aoe. The obstruction is usually destroyed seconds after the aoe finishes.  I am uncertain how players are supposed to break line of sight in a room that has no cover.  Reflecting projectiles can work, unless the boss's ranged attack doesn't count as a projectile. Freakin lazerbeems.

[Mell.4873]

2 hours ago, Batalix.2873 said:

Kind of a false binary.

If your group is disorganized and not everyone is stacking clearly or knows the strat, ranged keeps you alive longer and doing damage longer if you haven't learned the fight yet.

If your group isn't *so* bad that only a few people are dead, or you've reached the last phase of a messy run and just want to burn, being able to move around and avoid mechs to just try to keep DPS up is much easier with range.

As a consequence of these many situations where flexibility to disengage melee doesn't totally tank DPS, this also makes ranged builds good for a lot of pugs. For both beginners and more experienced raiders, either to stay alive so as not to be a burden, or to stay alive after the burdens have already been dropped on you.

Truth told, I haven't even played Strikes in a while so I have no idea where the pug meta is at or where it crept to. But I can absolutely vouch for ranged being preferred in raids.

I did comment that but didn't elaborate. 

But if I did elaborate your reply is pretty much what I would say. For the most part I do play ranged becouse I do end up soloing it on Pugs, well normally not the CM. 

If done properly being ranged does not give you any advantage over Melee. Same with most fights in the game. 

[The Boz.2038]

On 8/7/2023 at 11:17 AM, Bankrotas.8215 said:

I think PoF with bounties went the right direction. With targets being damageable for cq or range. Mind you not enough, no reflects in melee mode.

That was an incredibly daft idea, because "this target can be damaged only in melee" means the rifleman can get in close and let rip, but "this target can be damaged only from range" means melee twiddles thumbs for a minute. Nothing good came of it.

[The Boz.2038]

On 8/8/2023 at 1:32 AM, Sansar.1302 said:

All ranged dmg should be nerfed with a 20% to 40% damage shave

This is a recipe for "ranged is deleted from instanced PvE".

[AliamRationem.5172]

4 hours ago, Mell.4873 said:

I did comment that but didn't elaborate. 

But if I did elaborate your reply is pretty much what I would say. For the most part I do play ranged becouse I do end up soloing it on Pugs, well normally not the CM. 

If done properly being ranged does not give you any advantage over Melee. Same with most fights in the game. 

Except for every single EoD strike which has you splitting frequently with lots of boss movement, favoring ranged DPS that can continue attacking while melee deals no damage.  DPS uptime is a thing.  Why pretend otherwise?

[rotten.9753]

2 hours ago, The Boz.2038 said:

This is a recipe for "ranged is deleted from instanced PvE".

It needs some punishment, which melee currently have loads of.

[The Boz.2038]

1 hour ago, rotten.9753 said:

It needs some punishment, which melee currently have loads of.

Yes, but consider that deleting yet another popular playstyle from instanced will add yet another, rather large, divide between faffing about in open world and high-end content among the playerbase.

[Batalix.2873]

14 hours ago, The Boz.2038 said:

This is a recipe for "ranged is deleted from instanced PvE".

Wouldn't be the case if the game bothered to design roles/niches along other axes.

If, say, melee DPS couldn't do boon support while ranged DPS could (with a substantial DPS handicap), then there would be a reason to bring ranged DPS.

FFXIV has many problems with being overly obsessed with "balancing" classes (which, hey, GW2 does too even without the trinity), but one thing it did right was create meaningful tradeoffs for ranged builds. Physical ranged does less damage but has more mobility and buff options. Magical DPS does a bit more damage than physical ranged that scales with how turrety they have to root, with the less powerful options having some limited cure/rez abilities. It's not perfect, and if you look at tanks and healers there are MAJOR problems in deviating from this philosophy, but the DPS roles at least seem to understand the need for meaningful tradeoffs.

[Antycypator.9874]

Isn't Guild Wars 2 full of meta (most efficient tactic available) and "the best" strategies to deal with stuff? The choice between melee and ranged is also a strategy, you can't punish people for that.

Lets be honest, in instanced content you have to stack with other players anyway, so who cares? Here, in this thread, is too many people caring only about stupid numbers in their DPS metters, instead of just focusing on the game. I don't want this game to be balanced around players staring at arcDPS addon and whining about rifles or flying daggers doing more damage than swords in some encounters. Everyone gets the same rewards — if you play with other players, then it's a group effort, not a DPS race. I personally went through all this DPS race thing and I can assure you, it's pathetic. I feel bad for being such a person few years ago, because in 3 minutes after leaving a squad, no one actually remembers you and how many numbers you put out. There's nothing to care about.

[AliamRationem.5172]

1 hour ago, Antycypator.9874 said:

Isn't Guild Wars 2 full of meta (most efficient tactic available) and "the best" strategies to deal with stuff? The choice between melee and ranged is also a strategy, you can't punish people for that.

Lets be honest, in instanced content you have to stack with other players anyway, so who cares? Here, in this thread, is too many people caring only about stupid numbers in their DPS metters, instead of just focusing on the game. I don't want this game to be balanced around players staring at arcDPS addon and whining about rifles or flying daggers doing more damage than swords in some encounters. Everyone gets the same rewards — if you play with other players, then it's a group effort, not a DPS race. I personally went through all this DPS race thing and I can assure you, it's pathetic. I feel bad for being such a person few years ago, because in 3 minutes after leaving a squad, no one actually remembers you and how many numbers you put out. There's nothing to care about.

Never heard that one before.  How about I give you the typical response? If numbers don't matter then why did you write this novel?

[Furball.1236]

On 8/28/2023 at 4:56 PM, Batalix.2873 said:

Wouldn't be the case if the game bothered to design roles/niches along other axes.

If, say, melee DPS couldn't do boon support while ranged DPS could (with a substantial DPS handicap), then there would be a reason to bring ranged DPS.

FFXIV has many problems with being overly obsessed with "balancing" classes (which, hey, GW2 does too even without the trinity), but one thing it did right was create meaningful tradeoffs for ranged builds. Physical ranged does less damage but has more mobility and buff options. Magical DPS does a bit more damage than physical ranged that scales with how turrety they have to root, with the less powerful options having some limited cure/rez abilities. It's not perfect, and if you look at tanks and healers there are MAJOR problems in deviating from this philosophy, but the DPS roles at least seem to understand the need for meaningful tradeoffs.

I'm so glad, in GW2, wanting your character to use magic doesn't mean you have to be rooted all the time, or wanting to enjoy a ranged combat style doesn't mean you have to be boon support.

Those stereotypes sound like a kitten as much as the holy trinity.

Edited September 7, 2023 by Furball.1236

[Linnael.1069]

On 8/28/2023 at 5:04 AM, The Boz.2038 said:

This is a recipe for "ranged is deleted from instanced PvE".

We already know what it looks like when range is objectively superior to melee lol, so put away your hypothetical fantasy. There is no reason to play melee anywhere right now yet people still play it because its close enough. If range is nerfed but close enough it will still get played for all content, and still be superior in some content anyway. Much healthier than ranged being equal for brainless no movement content and way OP for the rest.