The problem with the Scourge

[Szatko.8132]

Ok, so after the new patch I feel like both Scourge DPS and alac heal are doing great, however there are certain problems, especially with the support variation of the espec. Even after the nerfs to shades' duration from 20s to 8s Scourge can keep up 2 shades at the same time for most of the time if someone really tries. That creates a situation of Scourge supplying the alacrity not only to their respected subgroup, but also to the other one (during 10-man encounters I do around 84% alac uptime, which means I do 34% of alacrity of the other subgroup). That nerf was supposed to keep alacrity application to only your subgroup for obvious reasons, so I think the team has failed in this case. Also Sand Savant as a trait is not really useful anymore, even in scenarios, where you want to solo heal content Desert Empowerment is just superior bc of additional way to apply barrier from F1 and additional alac.

So my solution is to replace current Sand Savant with something new, perhaps for more PvP-oriented Scourge builds and introduce Sand Savant into the base kit:
- only 1 shade up instead of maximum of 3
- increase duration of the sand shade from 8s back to 20s
- increase radius of the shade to 300
- set the target cap on all shade skills to 5, but when the shade is up you don't count as a shade anymore
- DON'T increase the recharge cooldown of Manifest Sand Shade
- make Desert Shroud's barrier pulse from the shade instead of you when the shade is up

Those changes would make Scourge much easier to balance in the future, while also increasing the comfort of playing the spec with longer shade duration.

AND additionaly I would love the devs to change the visuals of the support variant of Desert Shroud, cause it looks like aoe boss mechanic and you can't really see which one is your Desert Shroud and which one is the mechanic you're supposed to dodge or aegis/stab.

[Mell.4873]

Looked at the post patch builds, it does seem like Scourge is doing even better han before. No more cheese builds now you can fully support a whole raid raid with it. 

[Dadnir.5038]

I don't think there is a need for a solution to something that's not an issue.

[Bale.3851]

5 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

I don't think there is a need for a solution to something that's not an issue.

Improving gaming experience is always an issue. Maybe you are the one player who likes the spammy scourge version but for most of the necro community (at least from forum posts) these changes sad af. So much better solutuions not performance wise but QOL wise were posted and ignored. Which resulted in players giving up voicing their feedback AND this is a problem at least in my eyes.

[Teknomancer.4895]

5 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

I don't think there is a need for a solution to something that's not an issue.

IDK, I'd call at least this bit a problem:

21 hours ago, Szatko.8132 said:

...change the visuals of the support variant of Desert Shroud, cause it looks like aoe boss mechanic and you can't really see which one is your Desert Shroud and which one is the mechanic you're supposed to dodge or aegis/stab.

That seems like something that could and probably should be looked into.

[Acyk.9671]

7 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

I don't think there is a need for a solution to something that's not an issue.

Sand Savant being a dead trait for 3 years is an issue, but i agree it's not a priority.

[Dadnir.5038]

20 minutes ago, Acyk.9671 said:

Sand Savant being a dead trait for 3 years is an issue, but i agree it's not a priority.

Well, he is just suggesting to make sand savant baseline to further his agenda, thought. I don't really think such a thing would make sand savant any better.

Right now, sand savant offer coverage while the other options don't. It's a mild trait in itself that does not appeal to the min-max mentality. However, you can see that it's attractive enough to make some people want to have it's effect baseline (this thread being a good enough proof of that claim). In practice, the trait is simply superior when it's advantageous to be able to hit 10 targets reliably without a damage output constraint. Which make it the "better" choice for the vast majority of the playerbase that mostly want to tag mobs in meta events in order to gain some loots.

[Acyk.9671]

56 minutes ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

Well, he is just suggesting to make sand savant baseline to further his agenda, thought. I don't really think such a thing would make sand savant any better.

Right now, sand savant offer coverage while the other options don't. It's a mild trait in itself that does not appeal to the min-max mentality. However, you can see that it's attractive enough to make some people want to have it's effect baseline (this thread being a good enough proof of that claim). In practice, the trait is simply superior when it's advantageous to be able to hit 10 targets reliably without a damage output constraint. Which make it the "better" choice for the vast majority of the playerbase that mostly want to tag mobs in meta events in order to gain some loots.

True, PvE players are always whining anyway. They can't apprehend the notion of sacrifices and working around mechanics in a game catered to their needs. I wonder what else Anet is supposed to do after litterally changing the basics of their game for them by introducing quickness and alacrity to every class for 100% boon duration.

No site nor forum presents Sand Savant the way you do. I am sceptical about the ability of casual players in recognizing Sand Savant as an asset to clear greater numbers of trash mobs or affect a greater number of players in an open world context but wtv.

[Shaogin.2679]

12 hours ago, Acyk.9671 said:

Sand Savant being a dead trait for 3 years is an issue, but i agree it's not a priority.

It actually hasn't been dead. It has been the go-to Shade for Heal Scourges since release and has seen use in PvP as well.

11 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

Well, he is just suggesting to make sand savant baseline to further his agenda, thought. I don't really think such a thing would make sand savant any better.

Right now, sand savant offer coverage while the other options don't. It's a mild trait in itself that does not appeal to the min-max mentality. However, you can see that it's attractive enough to make some people want to have it's effect baseline (this thread being a good enough proof of that claim). In practice, the trait is simply superior when it's advantageous to be able to hit 10 targets reliably without a damage output constraint. Which make it the "better" choice for the vast majority of the playerbase that mostly want to tag mobs in meta events in order to gain some loots.

You clearly did not comprehend the OP's post at all. The OP isn't wanting Sand Savant to be baseline because it is better, they want it to be baseline so that we can no longer have more than one Shade out at a time because currently, we are able to provide alacrity for more than just our squad. I am seeing the same numbers in my raids, where I am supplying roughly 84% of the squad's alacrity instead of just the 50% intended by the devs. As for the effects, the barrier produced by F1 and F5 are already at 300, which is the Sand Savant range, despite not having to take Sand Savant. It would also make sense to make Sand Savant baseline due to the recent changes they made to the shade durations. Also, no Necromancer in this game that has a staff has any issues at all tagging mobs in meta events. Sand Savant is a completely dead trait now and is currently serving no purpose in any game mode. 

[Lily.1935]

I don't like how Sand Savant plays for offense. Even when Scourge first came out and we didn't know any better in PvE, it never felt great to use when I was trying to deal damage. I don't want it to be baseline. Sand Savant should be fused with Desert empowerment and the target cap should be 5, adjusted so the pulse that occurs functions like the October 2019 Update did. Either around the necromancer if no shades are out or around the shade if it is out. Return the duration to its previous incarnation and we've got a far better functioning scourge overall.
But this isn't the only issue I'm seeing. Barrier application on allies needs to be reduced at baseline but given a stronger scaling with healing power. This is something that needs to happen.

I actually have a whole list of changes I'd like to see for scourge that I don't want to suggest because even though I know it would be good for the balance of the game and health of the scourge everyone would HATE the suggestion so much I know no constructive conversation could be had around it.

[Methuselah.4376]

I am loving Scourge atm, both as a DPS and as a Heal Alac spec. Honestly, a lot of people here just love to moan and whine. 

Edited July 31, 2023 by Methuselah.4376

[Swan.9815]

1 hour ago, Methuselah.4376 said:

Honestly, a lot of people here just love to moan and whine. 

And some people even come here to whine about people whining.

[Dadnir.5038]

2 hours ago, Shaogin.2679 said:

You clearly did not comprehend the OP's post at all. The OP isn't wanting Sand Savant to be baseline because it is better, they want it to be baseline so that we can no longer have more than one Shade out at a time because currently, we are able to provide alacrity for more than just our squad. I am seeing the same numbers in my raids, where I am supplying roughly 84% of the squad's alacrity instead of just the 50% intended by the devs. As for the effects, the barrier produced by F1 and F5 are already at 300, which is the Sand Savant range, despite not having to take Sand Savant. It would also make sense to make Sand Savant baseline due to the recent changes they made to the shade durations. Also, no Necromancer in this game that has a staff has any issues at all tagging mobs in meta events. Sand Savant is a completely dead trait now and is currently serving no purpose in any game mode. 

I perfectly understand what the OP say, and that's why I said in my first post that: "There is no need for a solution for something that's not an issue".

The OP want powercreep under the guise of fixing an "issue" of the scourge giving more alacrity than intended. There is a single barrier source from the shades that can affect more than 5 targets: Sand cascade. If the devs really thought that it was a source of imbalance, they would most likely increase it's CD when paired with the trait desert empowerment instead of making sand savant baseline.

He is stating that's an issue and I'm stating that it's not. Nothing more, nothing less.

What I was answering to in the post you quote is the claim that sand savant has been a dead trait for 3 years from someone that seem to think that the majority of the player base cannot think by themselves.

Sand savant isn't a "dead" trait. Yes it compete with 2 traits with high end game value but so does many other traits. It's not anything new, there will always be traits that are more attractive than other and the devs just can't make all those less attractive traits baseline because somehow the playerbase think it would end up being "better" for balance. Also, keep in mind that not everybody necessarily want to be forced to play a specific weapon in order to get something out of the game.

Edited July 31, 2023 by Dadnir.5038

[Methuselah.4376]

1 minute ago, Swan.9815 said:

And some people even come here to whine about people whining.

It's a vicious cycle

[Asum.4960]

2 hours ago, Lily.1935 said:

I don't like how Sand Savant plays for offense. Even when Scourge first came out and we didn't know any better in PvE, it never felt great to use when I was trying to deal damage. I don't want it to be baseline. Sand Savant should be fused with Desert empowerment and the target cap should be 5, adjusted so the pulse that occurs functions like the October 2019 Update did. Either around the necromancer if no shades are out or around the shade if it is out. Return the duration to its previous incarnation and we've got a far better functioning scourge overall.

Strange, I always much preferred Sand Savant gameplay over tiny Shades, even when Shades still spammed out Cripple to contain targets slightly more easily in their tiny area of influence - it was pretty unfun even then. To me Scourge always was a decision of either far more fun Gameplay (pre-nerf Sand Savant) or actually doing something effective (Demonic Lore). So unfortunately ofc the latter always won (in PvE).

Sand Savant, although it's area proved to be slightly too much for PvP (although I will maintain much of that was always a l2p issue), always felt like the proper fantasy of Scourge realised to me - of playing that area control caster extending their area of influence in a single, manageable and easily comprehensible way for friend and foe alike, which popping these tiny Shades around everywhere, which everything walks out of in one step, to me woefully failed at. 

 

 

Anyway, as for the Target Cap debate, it honestly baffles me that this is even an issue to begin with, or why both Anet, as well as the community, are coming up with all these clunky gameplay solutions trying to fix it. 

It can't possibly by that difficult to give Shade skills a shared Target Cap of 5 between the Scourge and their Shades. No weird clunky and spammy Shade duration nerfs, no clunky don't get Shade effects around yourself when a Shade is up, etc. needed. 

5 allies/party/squad-subgroup members of the Scourge within either the area around the Scourge and or within a Shade get the effect of the skill used. That's it. Is that really rocket science to implement? Why are they coded as separate skill effects with their own target caps to begin with? 

Since almost 6 years they are messing around with Shades, Sand Savant, Target caps, Shade Durations, CD's etc. - this seems like it should be far easier than that, just make them work like every other AoE skill in the game, rather than triggering multiple separate but non-overlapping instances of the same skill in each of it's possible locations.

Edited July 31, 2023 by Asum.4960

[Lily.1935]

8 minutes ago, Asum.4960 said:

Strange, I always much preferred Sand Savant gameplay over tiny Shades, even when Shades still spammed out Cripple to contain targets slightly more easily in their tiny area of influence - it was pretty unfun even then. To me Scourge always was a decision of either far more fun Gameplay (pre-nerf Sand Savant) or actually doing something effective (Demonic Lore). So unfortunately ofc the latter always won (in PvE).

Sand Savant, although it's area proved to be slightly too much for PvP (although I will maintain much of that was always a l2p issue), always felt like the proper fantasy of Scourge realised to me - of playing that area control caster extending their area of influence in a single, manageable and easily comprehensible way for friend and foe alike, which popping these tiny Shades around everywhere, which everything walks out of in one step, to me woefully failed at. 

 

 

Anyway, as for the Target Cap debate, it honestly baffles me that this is even an issue to begin with, or why both Anet, as well as the community, are coming up with all these clunky gameplay solutions trying to fix it. 

It can't possibly by that difficult to give Shade skills a shared Target Cap of 5 between the Scourge and their Shades. No weird clunky and spammy Shade duration nerfs, no clunky don't get Shade effects around yourself when a Shade is up, etc. needed. 

The closest 5 players/party/squad-subgroup members to the Scourge within either the area around the Scourge and or within a Shade get the effect of the skill used. That's it. Is that really rocket science to implement? Why are they coded as separate skill effects with their own target caps to begin with? 

Since almost 6 years they are messing around with Shades, Sand Savant, Target caps, Shade Durations, CD's etc. - this seems like it should be far easier than that.

Different strokes for different folks. I preferred having more shades because it better fit the fantasy I enjoy. The single shade didn't quite work for me as someone who enjoys that sort of totem style of gameplay. Its a preference thing And I'm not a big fan of Sand savant for offense. For support and defense I like its design more.

One such change I'd like is the return of Crippling on manifest sand shade actually, but that's coupled with another change I'd like that would be extremely unpopular.

So the Target cap for the shades is that difficult. If it wasn't arena net would have already implemented it. Its likely the spaghetti code has the sand shades tied up with some other system and the only way to do that would be to completely remake the shades. And if we do that it could break something else unrelated. I sorta saw the 8 second duration as a bandaid solution to a complex issue and something they'd fix later. I believe my optimism was misplaced and they don't want to mess with these old systems much of the devs didn't have a part in programing.

As for my solution. its not clunky. I've played Scourge during that time. It wasn't as bad as the 8 second duration to play, but it wasn't great since you were quite defenseless if they got close to you. Its a pretty elegant solution to the issue. I personally don't have an issue with 10 person alacrity or quickness on a build but that's not the direction Arena net wants to go. So there needs to be a solution. Sand Savant is much easier to control than 3 shades are. You only have to worry about the target cap of the necromancer and the shade and not 3 shades and a necromancer. Arena net have shown they can change it in this way so why not have it as a unique function of that trait?

If You're wondering about the umpopular change I'd make to scourge, Well. I'd makes the shades An actual object in the world. Something that can be attacked, destroyed, healed or benefit from different traits. Treating them like minions with 100% scaling from the necromancer. Mechanically they'd function the exact same, but they could be interacted with for better counter play. I'd also open up that 3rd grandmaster trait to bolster their defensive utility by giving them a projectile block either on manifest for a second or on Desert shroud activation. Would the community like this change? Even with the benefit were it now combos with death magic? its play pattern remains the same but has more counter play and a bit more power? My suspicion is no... no the community would rage against it. But it would be far healthier for the scourge, WvW, PvP and offer a lot more build diversity, but I've suggested this before with outright rejection. Shades should have always been objects... it was a core design mistake since their inception.

But I've kinda given up on suggesting stuff to arena net. They stopped listening a long time ago and seem to intentionally go in opposite direction from what the community suggests even if it means it will cause long term problems.

[Szatko.8132]

On 7/30/2023 at 6:36 PM, Dadnir.5038 said:

However, you can see that it's attractive enough to make some people want to have it's effect baseline (this thread being a good enough proof of that claim).

Lol, and what kind of argument is that? It's not like Sand Savant's effects are bad, the problem is that it competes with alac and dps traits and there is no situation when you will prioritize it over  these 2. Even in situations when you do metas with a lot of people it's still better to take alac trait, because it provides an additional way to apply the barrier and alacrity for just 2 allies less being covered by my Sand Shades' abilities.  

[Szatko.8132]

18 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

The OP want powercreep under the guise of fixing an "issue" of the scourge giving more alacrity than intended. There is a single barrier source from the shades that can affect more than 5 targets: Sand cascade. If the devs really thought that it was a source of imbalance, they would most likely increase it's CD when paired with the trait desert empowerment instead of making sand savant baseline.

Sand cascade is not the only barrier source that can apply to more than 5 people, because F5's last pulse also applies the barrier to more than 5 people when the shades are up. Also the fact that when you cap the barrier on your allies (50% of ally's HP) the barrier will apply to people from outside of your subgroup, which is not a difficult thing to do as a Scourge with a lot of healing power.

 

18 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

that's why I said in my first post that: "There is no need for a solution for something that's not an issue".

Well, anet's design for supports is to limit their healing, barriers and boons to only 5 people. If something is going out of that formula then that creates a balance issue. Even devs stated in the dev blog that the shade uptime duration was nerfed so hard just to prevent Scourge from applying alac to the whole squad, but here we are.

 

18 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

Sand savant isn't a "dead" trait. Yes it compete with 2 traits with high end game value but so does many other traits.

You kinda have neglected your own point here. The problem is not even the fact that it competes with alac and dps traits, but it just doesn't really have any use outside of being the 3rd trait that nobody will ever pick, unless they're trolling or "having fun" with a bad build. Desert Empowerment is just a better choice, always.

[Szatko.8132]

19 hours ago, Methuselah.4376 said:

I am loving Scourge atm, both as a DPS and as a Heal Alac spec. Honestly, a lot of people here just love to moan and whine. 

Am I whining tho? I've just mentioned (cause it seems like nobody else really mentioned it here) that the devs failed at reducing the alac application on Scourge to only 5 people in the subgroup. 

[Methuselah.4376]

4 hours ago, Szatko.8132 said:

Am I whining tho? I've just mentioned (cause it seems like nobody else really mentioned it here) that the devs failed at reducing the alac application on Scourge to only 5 people in the subgroup. 

No, to be fair I am referring to the cadre of people spouting doom and gloom that Scourge is unplayable because it is spammy. 

[Batalix.2873]

On 7/29/2023 at 9:53 AM, Szatko.8132 said:

Ok, so after the new patch I feel like both Scourge DPS and alac heal are doing great, however there are certain problems, especially with the support variation of the espec. Even after the nerfs to shades' duration from 20s to 8s Scourge can keep up 2 shades at the same time for most of the time if someone really tries. That creates a situation of Scourge supplying the alacrity not only to their respected subgroup, but also to the other one (during 10-man encounters I do around 84% alac uptime, which means I do 34% of alacrity of the other subgroup). That nerf was supposed to keep alacrity application to only your subgroup for obvious reasons, so I think the team has failed in this case. Also Sand Savant as a trait is not really useful anymore, even in scenarios, where you want to solo heal content Desert Empowerment is just superior bc of additional way to apply barrier from F1 and additional alac.

So my solution is to replace current Sand Savant with something new, perhaps for more PvP-oriented Scourge builds and introduce Sand Savant into the base kit:
- only 1 shade up instead of maximum of 3
- increase duration of the sand shade from 8s back to 20s
- increase radius of the shade to 300
- set the target cap on all shade skills to 5, but when the shade is up you don't count as a shade anymore
- DON'T increase the recharge cooldown of Manifest Sand Shade
- make Desert Shroud's barrier pulse from the shade instead of you when the shade is up

Those changes would make Scourge much easier to balance in the future, while also increasing the comfort of playing the spec with longer shade duration.

AND additionaly I would love the devs to change the visuals of the support variant of Desert Shroud, cause it looks like aoe boss mechanic and you can't really see which one is your Desert Shroud and which one is the mechanic you're supposed to dodge or aegis/stab.

Sorry but making Sand Savant base anything and further pretending like 3 shades never existed will never sit well with me.

If I wanted to play Cata or Specter I would play those. Scourge was always about maximizing terrain control, and now it isn't.

Scourge was one of the few especs in the game that really felt like it bent *away* from the game's tendency to just make everything about direct DPS. Pushing it even more into single-well spamming just kills its unique selling point and makes it more like every other generic DPS blah espec in the game.

I do agree that the visuals should be swapped between Sand Shroud and Desert Shroud. The sandy one should apply alac, the blasty one should be more DPS.

[Szatko.8132]

13 hours ago, Batalix.2873 said:

Sorry but making Sand Savant base anything and further pretending like 3 shades never existed will never sit well with me.

If I wanted to play Cata or Specter I would play those. Scourge was always about maximizing terrain control, and now it isn't.

Scourge was one of the few especs in the game that really felt like it bent *away* from the game's tendency to just make everything about direct DPS. Pushing it even more into single-well spamming just kills its unique selling point and makes it more like every other generic DPS blah espec in the game.

I do agree that the visuals should be swapped between Sand Shroud and Desert Shroud. The sandy one should apply alac, the blasty one should be more DPS.

Well, the devs are not able to fulfill everyone's wishes. When exactly was Scourge about maximizing terrain control? Since Path of Fire release people just spammed shades under the boss, near the allies, so nothing has really changed about this. Keeping the current shades will make Scourge's balance around modern support standards impossible - keeping all boons and healing/barriers to 5 allies only.

[xellink.7568]

Biggest problem is the yellow expanding circle, like the spectre's shroud 5, looks too menacing and automatically induces a dodge under high stress and acute reflexes.

Can we get a different colour like blue?

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

they definitely need to do something about shades, since right now healscourge is a six-target healer even with alacrity, and with sand savant (like if someone else brings alacrity), they can still heal almost the entire raid single-handedly, and i thought arenanet wanted to prevent this.

 

please just revert the shade nerfs and make them share a target limit with the scourge.

Edited August 4, 2023 by SoftFootpaws.9134

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

On 7/31/2023 at 8:07 PM, Szatko.8132 said:

Lol, and what kind of argument is that? It's not like Sand Savant's effects are bad, the problem is that it competes with alac and dps traits and there is no situation when you will prioritize it over  these 2. Even in situations when you do metas with a lot of people it's still better to take alac trait, because it provides an additional way to apply the barrier and alacrity for just 2 allies less being covered by my Sand Shades' abilities.  

it still has a very niche but important use: two healscouges with sand savant give massive overlap (80%) and basically keep barrier capped on the entire raid 24/7, effectively making them not take any damage from anything. sometimes this is worth the damage loss of losing two pure dps players, since combined with rezz pulls it effectively guarantees a clear no matter how difficult the content is as long as there's no hard dps check.

 

there's even a brief cooldown margin on sand shades with alacrity so a high apm 100% overlap is possible.

 

this has mostly replaced the old rezz carry in training runs, and it does work. its technically possible to just rely entirely on very high healing power and barrier this way and not even bother with stuff like monk runes at all, so you could put some dps on the scourges too.

 

i have a feeling that in time this will actually become the new meta unless they change it. its completely broken in execution due to the way barrier prevents all damage and for the most part the 50% cap is still enough to stop one-shots completely unless its some special mechanic that is hardcoded to kill the player, in which case the rezz pull just picks up the slack anyway.

 

its basically like someone is spamming jackal on your whole raid constantly.

Edited August 4, 2023 by SoftFootpaws.9134