Scrapper's design problems stem from the lack of an elite spec mechanic

[mootshell.8530]

Some 2c from a Scrapper main. I saw someone mention this in another thread a while back. I can't find the exact post anymore, but whoever said it, credit to you.

It was pointed out that Scrapper is the only elite spec without an elite spec mechanic. Every other elite spec in the game transforms or builds upon the profession mechanic, whereas with Scrapper, it's simply core power engineer with new utility skills - the gyros. You could argue Function Gyro counts as a spec mechanic, but if that constitutes Scrapper... it's a single skill that doesn't meaningfully transform the profession mechanic or playstyle. Compare this to other elite specs, for example - Holosmith with its F5 kit and heat management minigame; Necro elite specs changing your shroud skills; Daredevil, Mirage and Vindicator giving you flashy things to use your dodge for. All of these have more mechanical depth than what amounts to a ranged revive skill and Impact Savant's dps-to-barrier conversion. With Hammer being given to other builds, Scrapper can no longer rely on how fluid the weapon feels to play to make itself stand out in comparison to other engi builds, and the cracks are starting to show.

I'm starting to feel the spec is due for a rework, and judging by the last balance patch, I think the devs agree. The elite spec fantasy of a minion-controlling bruiser engineer is very solid, it's just waiting for a great implementation. The spirit of Scrapper has always felt like you're supposed to be rewarded for being aggressive, but not too aggressive, and if the spec gets reworked, I'd want that to stay the same.

Personally, I'd want to see two main playstyles from Scrapper - a ranged Scrapper that commands gyros to move around like Ventari's Tablet, a melee Scrapper with gyros orbiting them like we already have, and either let you pick which one with traits or have a way to swap between the playstyles on the fly.

Or, possibly more interestingly, perhaps even go in a completely different direction - have Scrapper be the engineer spec that doubles down on toolbelt buildcraft, allowing you to pick which toolbelt skills to equip out of the entire pool of core engineer and scrapper toolbelt skills.

What are your thoughts? Happy SotO everyone!

[Dawdler.8521]

32 minutes ago, mootshell.8530 said:

Some 2c from a Scrapper main. I saw someone mention this in another thread a while back. I can't find the exact post anymore, but whoever said it, credit to you.

It was pointed out that Scrapper is the only elite spec without an elite spec mechanic. Every other elite spec in the game transforms or builds upon the profession mechanic, whereas with Scrapper, it's simply core power engineer with new utility skills - the gyros. You could argue Function Gyro counts as a spec mechanic, but if that constitutes Scrapper...

Well thats the argument. Because saying it doesnt have a spec mechanic is straight up false, it has the function gyro.

The "problem" is that HoT specs was back in the day when Anet still thought about competetive and their elites reflect that. The function gyro is designed for PvP so of course fanatic PvE dps bean counters will ignore its existance. 

I would also argue that the elite gyro was strong enough to be considered a "spec mechanic" - again something PvEers will ignore, group stealth isnt exactly good for killing mobs - especially when the scrapper could also be combined with being the best anti-stealth around.

Unfortunetly over the years its all been nerfed to oblivion in the name of PURITY OF PURPOSE.

Edited August 24, 2023 by Dawdler.8521

[Elricht Kaltwind.8796]

Tbh I feel like you refuted your own post when you pointed out that necromancer elite specs also only change their skills. I mean what even is a Reaper but a different set of skills while in shroud and a new trait line? That's comparable 1:1 with Scrapper 

[mootshell.8530]

7 minutes ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

Well thats the argument. Because saying it doesnt have a spec mechanic is straight up false, it has the function gyro.

Let me define what I mean by 'spec mechanic'. Elite specs, in theory, are supposed to transform the playstyle of a profession. Look at every popular elite spec - the things that defines them usually interact with the core profession mechanic in ways that change how the profession plays. Function Gyro behaves more like a single additional utility skill, and as you mentioned, it's not one every build would want.

Another way to look at it is that scrapper lacks mechanical identity because the gyro utility skills are the only thing separating it from core engineer. You could run zero gyro utility skills, and it would play like core engineer with a different F5. It's the elite spec that is most similar to its core profession, separated only by a single skill, and this gives the devs very little to work with. This is why we get changes such as the

10 minutes ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

The function gyro is designed for PvP so of course fanatic PvE dps bean counters will ignore its existance. 

Don't get me wrong, I adore Function Gyro - my all time favourite build is PvE Heal Scrapper because of it, and I'm well aware of how amazing it is in PvP. However, it carries too much weight when defining what Scrapper is, and ideally, there should be something with more mechanical depth working in tandem with it.

[mootshell.8530]

13 minutes ago, Elricht Kaltwind.8796 said:

Tbh I feel like you refuted your own post when you pointed out that necromancer elite specs also only change their skills. I mean what even is a Reaper but a different set of skills while in shroud and a new trait line? That's comparable 1:1 with Scrapper 

Reaper isn't 1:1 comparable with Scrapper - changing all the shroud skills has a much bigger impact than just swapping out your F5 for a new skill. Because it's 5 skills, it's more akin to an extra weapon. Meanwhile, Scrapper gets a (quite good) ranged revive, some power-damage-to-barrier conversion that got nerfed into irrelevance in PvE, and that's it. Instead, the majority of its identity comes from its utility skills, which makes it an outlier among elite specs.

Edited August 24, 2023 by mootshell.8530

[Dawdler.8521]

20 minutes ago, mootshell.8530 said:

Reaper isn't 1:1 comparable with Scrapper - changing all the shroud skills has a much bigger impact than just swapping out your F5 for a new skill. Because it's 5 skills, it's more akin to an extra weapon. Meanwhile, Scrapper gets a (quite good) ranged revive, some power-damage-to-barrier conversion that got nerfed into irrelevance in PvE, and that's it. Instead, the majority of its identity comes from its utility skills, which makes it an outlier among elite specs.

Reaper is the same deal - yes it get technically a more pronounced mechanic but unlike the small sacrifice of F5 choice you loose ranged shroud firepower completely. That both a pro and con in competetive. Because once again, HoT elites where just designed differently than the later elites where Anet threw balancing out the window in the name of PvE.

[Endaris.1452]

Granted, scrapper's elite mechanic was never strong enough to warrant having to give up F5 but it was special because no other class had this kind of power to end/save people in competitive to end people without extra commitment. And even in endgame PvE content, the extra revive power was just nice.

Given anet's willingness to tap into F6 and up for mech, I think it would be nice if function gyro was moved to F6 and elite toolbelt was returned to scrapper because the function gyro is not nearly powerful enough as an espec mechanic to warrant its loss.

[Roadkizzle.2157]

Chrono is also just Core Mesmer with about a 10% more damage on some of its F buttons, a unique F5, and Wells

 

Continuum Split is used more often than Function Gyro but it's still just basically another ouped up version of Mimic and the healing signet.

 

I'd say the Scrappers Gyros are more iconic than other eSpecs utility skills though. Because they are very unique from other classes Wells being PBAOE utilities that move with the character. They really work to support the Scrapper being a melee brawler which is the complete opposite to the core spec. Enemies can't really run out of the Wells without disengaging from the player.

[Noah Salazar.5430]

Quote

without an elite spec mechanic.

Gyros are Scrapper class mechanic

 

Bulwar gyro+leap = daze

Purge gyro F skill+leap/blast = aoe weakness

Medic Gyro+leap/blast= aoe healing

Shreder Gyro+F skill = aoe Vulnerability

Blast Gyro+blas= aoe might

Quote

again something PvEers will ignore

you can blind mobs if you combine smoke field with whirl, but it's mehh

Edited September 1, 2023 by Noah Salazar.5430

[Curennos.9307]

Giving the gyro some distinct use in PvE would be nice. I think all the HoT specs suffered from some form of being designed as core 2.0, and then got fleshed out further as time went on (and some already had solid design, like reaper being a very pleasant take on 'melee necro', albeit not completely polished at the time). On the other hand, it feels like scrapper got the least amount of polishing to nudge it away from being core 2.0.

[Atmaweapon.7345]

Just make Scrapper Scourge + Firebrand.

Deploy Function Gyro on F5, placing your Function Gyro on the field and causing all of your Toolbelt skills to flip to Function Gyro specific skills. You have 3 charges to spend on Gyro skills and replenish 1 charge every 15 seconds.

• F1 Does damage with a Blast finisher.
• F2 Grants Stability, Protection, and Resolution.
• F3 Heals and cleanses Conditions.
• F4 moves the Gyro like a Ventari tablet.
• F5 stows the Gyro and flips back to the normal toolbelt.

Major Grandmaster traits are as follows:

1. Gain increased Concentration based on your Power. You and your Gyro Grant Quickness nearby to allies when using Gyro toolbelt abilities.
2. 100% increased effect of Impact Savant which applies to party members near yourself and your Gyro. You and your Gyro grant Aegis to nearby allies when using F2 and partially revive nearby allies with F3.
3. Gain 20% increased Strike damage for 8 seconds when disabling a foe. Your Gyro stuns nearby enemies when using Gyro abilities and deals 300% additional damage to downed targets with F1.

You now have 3 options that all occupy a niche and can be swapped in and out based on your needs. First option is your boon build. Second option is your defensive option, allowing Scrapper to fill in your defensive support needs as a DPS. Third option is your pure dps option which comes with a stun for breakbar utility. The previous revival and finisher mechanics have been shifted to specific traits.

Everything is very straightforward and gives Scrapper a leg up against the competition in terms of support.

Edited August 29, 2023 by Atmaweapon.7345

[mootshell.8530]

On 8/26/2023 at 7:27 PM, Atmaweapon.7345 said:

Just make Scrapper Scourge + Firebrand.

Deploy Function Gyro on F5, placing your Function Gyro on the field and causing all of your Toolbelt skills to flip to Function Gyro specific skills. You have 3 charges to spend on Gyro skills and replenish 1 charge every 15 seconds.

• F1 Does damage with a Blast finisher.
• F2 Grants Stability, Protection, and Resolution.
• F3 Heals and cleanses Conditions.
• F4 moves the Gyro like a Ventari tablet.
• F5 stows the Gyro and flips back to the normal toolbelt.

Major Grandmaster traits are as follows:

1. Gain increased Concentration based on your Power. You and your Gyro Grant Quickness nearby to allies when using Gyro toolbelt abilities.
2. 100% increased effect of Impact Savant which applies to party members near yourself and your Gyro. You and your Gyro grant Aegis to nearby allies when using F2 and partially revive nearby allies with F3.
3. Gain 20% increased Strike damage for 8 seconds when disabling a foe. Your Gyro stuns nearby enemies when using Gyro abilities and deals 300% additional damage to downed targets with F1.

You now have 3 options that all occupy a niche and can be swapped in and out based on your needs. First option is your boon build which now also covers Fury. Second option is your defensive option, allowing Scrapper to fill in your defensive support needs as a DPS. Third option is your pure dps option which comes with a stun for breakbar utility. The previous revival and finisher mechanics have been shifted to specific traits.

Everything is very straightforward and gives Scrapper a leg up against the competition in terms of support.

I actually agree with this for the most part, it expands Function Gyro to be more fleshed out. Leave the gyro utility skills as they are with the mobile well effects, it'd let you use function gyro f1 to blast your gyro utility skill combo fields.

[The Boz.2038]

On 8/24/2023 at 2:36 PM, Dawdler.8521 said:

Because saying it doesnt have a spec mechanic is straight up false, it has the function gyro.

One single baked-in skill does not a spec mechanic make. Especially if it is irrelevant in most of the game/used only for a boon bump.

[Matoro.9708]

Function Gyro is just a better Toss Elixir R.

I think Engineer should be able to experiment with swapping out toolbelt skills somehow, after all the only way to compensate for taking a racial elite is having function gyro or god forbid the green menace. And mechanist still doesn't work with med kit, lmao.

Also am I the only one unhappy with the class icon? It's a hammer, but a goofy one and should be a gyro.

I am taking a break from the game until they address more core features like turrets and visuals such as mortar kit's model. 

 

[Nephalem.8921]

Can engi not get a 2nd useless pet spec please? Minion builds are either extremely oppressive or lack scaling or just do not work. They had to make mech extremely op to work and it still bugs out and does weird things in lots of content.

[Stx.4857]

I agree that scrapper feels like it has no identity now that hammer is usable by all specs and many other specs can provide quickness and revive skills.  
 

All they need to do is make Gyro’s feel more unique or impactful.  Now that the hammer isn’t really the scrapper identity anymore, it should be all about the Gyro’s.  
 

Scrapper used to have an identity as kind of a tank spec.  Maybe they could focus on that.  Start by giving scrapper some form of damage reduction.  It has literally zero damage reduction.  Impact savant is still great for buffering your health, but it doesn’t make you any less squishy.  

[Roadkizzle.2157]

4 minutes ago, Stx.4857 said:

I agree that scrapper feels like it has no identity now that hammer is usable by all specs and many other specs can provide quickness and revive skills.  
 

All they need to do is make Gyro’s feel more unique or impactful.  Now that the hammer isn’t really the scrapper identity anymore, it should be all about the Gyro’s.  
 

Scrapper used to have an identity as kind of a tank spec.  Maybe they could focus on that.  Start by giving scrapper some form of damage reduction.  It has literally zero damage reduction.  Impact savant is still great for buffering your health, but it doesn’t make you any less squishy.  

Except tanking really doesn't exist in 99% of the game. And the job can be performed by 100% of classes just by stacking enough Toughness.

So a spec focused on that is useless.

[August.5934]

Just now, Roadkizzle.2157 said:

Except tanking really doesn't exist in 99% of the game. And the job can be performed by 100% of classes just by stacking enough Toughness.

So a spec focused on that is useless.

i mean, Tank isn't even needed in GW2 cause everyone has 2 dodge skills, 1 heal skill in the kit and not to mention a role of healer is better then tank cause tons of regeneration, heals & barriers..

[Noah Salazar.5430]

Quote

Scrapper used to have an identity as kind of a tank spec.  

In this game healer is a tank 

Scrapper is bruiser, the more dmg you do, the more survability you have

You can build it into healer, but at that moment it lacks team fury boon

Edited August 30, 2023 by Noah Salazar.5430

[Stx.4857]

6 hours ago, Noah Salazar.5430 said:

In this game healer is a tank 

Scrapper is bruiser, the more dmg you do, the more survability you have

You can build it into healer, but at that moment it lacks team fury boon

The literal definition of a bruiser is a tanky brute force style damage dealer lol.  Impact savant makes scrapper very sustainable but it does NOT reduce damage taken.  

[porkchopMCgee.6193]

On 8/25/2023 at 4:40 PM, Curennos.9307 said:

Giving the gyro some distinct use in PvE would be nice. I think all the HoT specs suffered from some form of being designed as core 2.0, and then got fleshed out further as time went on (and some already had solid design, like reaper being a very pleasant take on 'melee necro', albeit not completely polished at the time). On the other hand, it feels like scrapper got the least amount of polishing to nudge it away from being core 2.0.

It's name is scrapper, it's idea got scrapped 

[Curennos.9307]

20 minutes ago, porkchopMCgee.6193 said:

It's name is scrapper, it's idea got scrapped 

I snickered and then I cried.

[Gendalfs.7521]

Its OK guys. Just wait a few months more till no one will play any engie spec anymore. Then (maybe) theyll buff it a bit or make OP. 

[toorichforyou.6743]

scrapper suffers from the same thing that every spec suffers from-

Anet.

Cmc cant design worth a dime. dude needs the wiki to balance.

[August.5934]

As i have mained scrapper for very long time and played other spec, I honestly believe that scrapper just does low dmg. I feel that lack of damage. Just to maxmize electro whril dmg, i have to stack tons of debuffs before i even start doing any damage... Like, i have to stack 25stacks of might and 25 stacks of vulnerability just to barely reach 20k - 25k dmg on it.

yes, i am in full berserker set with Ascended gears & scholor runes.

Then there is my holosmith, same gear; easy +35k dmg (mech spec doesn't exsit for me cause robot skills are really dented but yes, does high dmg.).

Then ..well, i kinda made a HUGE request. i throwed everything i could possible ask reasonablely

 

Here, a rose 🌹 for you guys, no need to overthink this post 😉