Scourge might be a bit too strong (49k dps)

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

The argument of the gold (and time)  investment is a bit obsolete.

Sure your class could not be  "top3 DPS " an update to another, it doesn't mean it won't be viable to do all the content, especially with the huge powercreep these last years and alacrity/quickness given to all specs.
Same about gear, items etc; "meta" won't magically comes from Vipere to Seraph and if you feel more comfortable with somes runes, food, sigils (IDK, nightmare instead of trapper) go for it. If you remains logical in your build according to your means and abilities in view of group content, who cares ?

 

At worst, you can always give your ascended gear you spent time and effort to craft/loot to another character

[Tanachi.3951]

3 minutes ago, Warscythes.9307 said:

Did you give conditions to the golem?

Just vuln stacks, nothing else.

[Warscythes.9307]

10 minutes ago, Tanachi.3951 said:

Just vuln stacks, nothing else.

Just slap on all conditions, curses have a line that depending on number of conditions. Is not the exact standard but is good enough for now since is always bit of a hassle to set it up. Standard I think is 10 conditions.

I suspect you are also thinking way too hard on rotation. Just literally mash every single button but heal, F3 and F4. There are things to optimize but don't worry about that.You don't need to weapon swap either. I did scepter torch because I wanted to show pre-SoTo, other guy used pistol torch but it shouldn't matter. Don't think just literal faceroll. You will hit higher than 30k I promise.

Edited August 28, 2023 by Warscythes.9307

[Nephalem.8921]

6 minutes ago, Tanachi.3951 said:

I mean, I'm not an elite player or anything, but I can't be that bad. What golem setup did you use? I just gave myself all boons and called it a day.

4m hp golem. All boons on yourself. All condis but only vuln matters. You should provide enough to cap out with scepter 3.

Have you used f1,2 and 5? Did you have a shade up at all times? thats just the very simple scourge things. 

[Warscythes.9307]

2 minutes ago, Nephalem.8921 said:

4m hp golem. All boons on yourself. All condis but only vuln matters. You should provide enough to cap out with scepter 3.

Have you used f1,2 and 5? Did you have a shade up at all times? thats just the very simple scourge things. 

Eh if you are mashing fast enough then it shouldn't matter. I vote for randomly hitting buttons. Rotations are for losers faceroll is for chads.

[Warscythes.9307]

2 minutes ago, Zhaid Zhem.6508 said:

 How about benchmark on GW1, or LVL2 post-Shaemoor of all classes to convince it's not the class itself ?
Really, what's your point ? What do you want to prove ? Explain.

I am going to bench with a lvl 52 character with all blue gear with dagger/staff and get 0.5k dps which proves necro is underpowered and needs to be buffed.

Edited August 28, 2023 by Warscythes.9307

[Tanachi.3951]

After some parses facerolling with scepter/torch, I managed to get a consistent 30k. I also noticed I'm running 2 sigils of bursting, so I'd probably do somewhat better if I had a functioning sigil on the offhand. I'd buy a sigil of torment to test it out, but I just bought the griffon so I'm all out of gold.

[Warscythes.9307]

1 minute ago, Tanachi.3951 said:

After some parses facerolling with scepter/torch, I managed to get a consistent 30k. I also noticed I'm running 2 sigils of bursting, so I'd probably do somewhat better if I had a functioning sigil on the offhand. I'd buy a sigil of torment to test it out, but I just bought the griffon so I'm all out of gold.

That sounds about right, I have full ascended so I do probably around 5-10% more dps than you do. So the next step is actually not randomly hit buttons and think slightly about priorization. You are already hitting 75% of the benchmark. Since you are using pure scepter/torch with bad gear, this is pre-SoTo numbers which I think is about 40-41k. So that's easily passable because literally nobody expect you to hit benchmark numbers on golem since a lot of it is grinded. For scourge I'd say 85%+ is considered ok considering the low difficulty, but your effort is very much within range for most classes realistic benchmark performance. 

[Passerbye.6291]

Every single class has access to the same runes, sigils and relics, literally reaper has access to even the same weapons, but somehow it isn't benching 49k, scourge is the outlier, because it is the variable that enables it. You don't change an entire system for the outliers. There is a reason why not every class is hitting 49k. This really shouldn't be too hard to grasp, c'mon people.

[porkchopMCgee.6193]

Just now, Passerbye.6291 said:

Every single class has access to the same runes, sigils and relics, literally reaper has access to even the same weapons, but somehow it isn't benching 49k, scourge is the outlier, because it is the variable that enables it. You don't change an entire system for the outliers. There is a reason why not every class is hitting 49k. This really shouldn't be too hard to grasp, c'mon people.

And everyone has access to the same classes . If it's that big of a deal why not all be scourges ?! 

[Passerbye.6291]

1 minute ago, porkchopMCgee.6193 said:

And everyone has access to the same classes . If it's that big of a deal why not all be scourges ?! 

Played it quite a lot back in the day, I'd rather have proper balance, way lower overall dps numbers so content doesn't become irrelevant, in order to have a more fun game. What you suggest already happened when mechanist was benching 38k. This game has had balance patches solely aimed at breaking the tradition of running multitudes of the same class. Some builds clearly outperforming others is not in line with the way balance works. Ideally, there should be reasons to pick any class over another. A few classes outperforming others in every regard is not fun, at least not for me, hence my opinion.

[rotten.9753]

2 hours ago, Tanachi.3951 said:

Taking utility from scourge would kill its class identity, since harbinger it's supposed to be the "full condi dps" spec of necro.

Then it shouldn't do competitive DPS compared to fully selfish DPS builds like weaver. Harbinger should be a go-to DPS build for necro since it actually is more risky and thus should be more rewarding.

[rotten.9753]

2 hours ago, porkchopMCgee.6193 said:

And everyone has access to the same classes . If it's that big of a deal why not all be scourges ?! 

We used to have this situation 1 year ago with a mechanist.

[Fizz.9384]

On 8/28/2023 at 10:12 AM, GeraldBC.4927 said:

It's just the pendulum swinging in the other direction after a literal decade of keeping the necro nerfed into irrelevance.

No amount of power on the scourge is ever too much. Scourge could be benching 80K and I'd still say it's deserved. 

Lol. Someone doesn't remember the scourge pug meta which plagued then CM 100 (now CM 99) before EOD.

But it is very unfortunate for scourge enjoyers that scourge came out on top this expac with the highest dps by far. That means it will be the biggest target for nerfs and likely get hit hard just like deadeye a month ago. At least there will still be good reasons to play scourge after it gets nerfed, unlike deadeye.

Edited August 29, 2023 by Fizz.9384

[Pyruvic.1520]

Why are people so obsessed with the 50k benchmark? It's completely irrelevant compared to the fact that scourge is consistently blowing every other dps out of the water in real world performance on fights. It's so bad right now that if Anet doesn't nerf the spec, you would flat out gain more dps by switching to condi scourge than you'd lose by being new to it... Then again, I suppose that's a positive to all of the people that dislike build diversity.

[necromaniac.7629]

trapper runes too stronk, scourge traits too stronk, scourge weps too stronk, scourge design too stronk

Edited August 31, 2023 by necromaniac.7629

[Arianth Moonlight.6453]

remember when you all were whining about how Scourge was nerfed and made useless? Well, here is why.

[Drarnor Kunoram.5180]

8 hours ago, Arianth Moonlight.6453 said:

remember when you all were whining about how Scourge was nerfed and made useless? Well, here is why.

I don't think so.  Without the buffs that came between then and SotO, Scourge would still be last place for DPS builds by a significant margin.  I said then that they overbuffed Scourge with the followup patch, but it did need buffs.

Edited September 3, 2023 by Drarnor Kunoram.5180

[SeTect.5918]

Since the torment change in pve (which made that the bonus dmg now appeared on enemies that are NOT moving) scourge moved from 28k dps to 36-37k. Since that it was in a pretty good spot because none of the other dps builds was above 42k.
Because of scourges good survivability and easy rotation it could still keep up with other dps builds in real fights which were above 39-40k on the golem because these has not so good sustain.
And i think 36-37k was a perfect spot of scourge while other dps build with less sustain has some more dps.

The average dps number back then was like 37k.

Now its like what? 42k? or more?
No doubt that too much power creep is bad but if the number stays like that scourge should probably be like 38-39k while harbinger and reaper deal a bit more than that.

Tho i d like everything to be around 40k.
High sustain like scourge a bit less than that.
Low sustain like harbinger a bit more than that.
Reaper something inbetween.

But i dont have hope that they will balance it well tbh. I mean i dont want to be too rude but seeing harbinger deal far less than scourge is a pain.
Same for ele for months dealing less damage than scourge.
Or also reaper dealing far less dmg than scourge for months.
-> and that on the golem while scourge has it far easier in real fights too.

Edited September 3, 2023 by SeTect.5918

[PzTnT.7198]

I just hope that whatever nerf is coming down the pipe for this wont nuke condi harbinger as collateral damage. 

[Drarnor Kunoram.5180]

5 hours ago, PzTnT.7198 said:

I just hope that whatever nerf is coming down the pipe for this wont nuke condi harbinger as collateral damage. 

The ideal nerfs are to Sadistic Searing and Demonic Lore, as they will hit DPS Scourge and nothing else.

 

So, I fully expect ANet to nerf pistol.

[Narcemus.1348]

On 9/4/2023 at 4:34 AM, PzTnT.7198 said:

I just hope that whatever nerf is coming down the pipe for this wont nuke condi harbinger as collateral damage. 

I think that is what I am waiting for. I am fully expecting Scourge to be hit so hard that no one will want to use it again.

[Dadnir.5038]

On 9/4/2023 at 5:35 PM, Drarnor Kunoram.5180 said:

The ideal nerfs are to Sadistic Searing and Demonic Lore, as they will hit DPS Scourge and nothing else.

So, I fully expect ANet to nerf pistol.

I hope you realize that if they hit scourge's dps traits the scourge's dps builds are going to end up using support trait which will lead to even more complains down the road on both the necromancer and the other professions' side.

For Harbinger (as well as reaper and core), the main worth of the pistol is life force generation while for Scourge it's a precious source of damage. As long as they don't touch the life force generation, removing torment from pistol would have close to 0 impact on Harbinger while Scourge on another hand would take a huge hit to it's damage output.

Granted that the devs follow similar logic than you and like to nerf around the edge of the issue, I guess you're wrong here, they would most likely go for your ideal nerfs over a nerf to the source of the issue which is the pistol.

[Drarnor Kunoram.5180]

1 hour ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

I hope you realize that if they hit scourge's dps traits the scourge's dps builds are going to end up using support trait which will lead to even more complains down the road on both the necromancer and the other professions' side.

For Harbinger (as well as reaper and core), the main worth of the pistol is life force generation while for Scourge it's a precious source of damage. As long as they don't touch the life force generation, removing torment from pistol would have close to 0 impact on Harbinger while Scourge on another hand would take a huge hit to it's damage output.

Granted that the devs follow similar logic than you and like to nerf around the edge of the issue, I guess you're wrong here, they would most likely go for your ideal nerfs over a nerf to the source of the issue which is the pistol.

They would need to completely delete Sadistic Searing and Demonic Lore for DPS Scourge to take support traits over them.  I don't know what sort of mental gymnastics you're doing to come to your conclusion.

 

Dropping Demonic Lore back to a 25% buff to torment might be enough to bring condi scourge back in line.  If not, dropping Sadistic Searing to 1 burn stack as well will do it.  Two very simple changes that will laser target the build, leave it viable, and will touch nothing else.

Edited September 5, 2023 by Drarnor Kunoram.5180

[Dadnir.5038]

22 minutes ago, Drarnor Kunoram.5180 said:

Dropping Demonic Lore back to a 25% buff to torment might be enough to bring condi scourge back in line.  If not, dropping Sadistic Searing to 1 burn stack as well will do it.  Two very simple changes that will laser target the build, leave it viable, and will touch nothing else.

At best with those 2 changes you suggest, you'll drop the current scourge damage from 49k to 46k. That's not even nearly enough, the problem is pistol, without pistol scourge was at 38k with those traits you want to nerf.