Poll: Should Revenant weapon skills have both an energy cost & cooldown?

[MatyrGustav.6210]

Currently, all profession weapon skills utilize a cooldown. Thief's weapon skills only utilize Initiative, but have no cooldown. Revenant Weapon skills have both cooldowns & an energy cost. 

 

Please Comment 🙂

Edited September 14, 2023 by MatyrGustav.6210

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

The system is fine as is. If they remove energy costs on weapons then CDs on utility skills will be increased due to having higher energy availability. They just need to balance energy costs/CDs appropriately. In many cases CDs on Rev ARE still lower (by a couple or few seconds) than other similar abilities from "Cooldown Classes"

[MatyrGustav.6210]

The problem i have with the current system is that it promotes swapping Legends just to regain energy more so than i believe it should. I run out of energy far too quickly because most of it is being used on Weapon Skills. I mainly use the Centaur stance and it really feels inconvenient when having to swap legends so often. 

I want a system that i can remain in one legend if i wanted to, and only switch for tactical reasons and not just for energy.

What i prefer for Revenant.

- 100% Energy to start

- Swapping Legends do not give energy / reset energy. Same mist energy is used for both legends. 

- Weapon Skills do not use energy

[MatyrGustav.6210]

14 hours ago, LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

The system is fine as is. If they remove energy costs on weapons then CDs on utility skills will be increased due to having higher energy availability. They just need to balance energy costs/CDs appropriately. In many cases CDs on Rev ARE still lower (by a couple or few seconds) than other similar abilities from "Cooldown Classes"

They can just increase the Energy Costs on Utility skills for balance instead,  but i think it would be fine. A lot of other classes just pump out abilities more so than Revenant in my opinion.

Edited September 15, 2023 by MatyrGustav.6210

[Lonewolf Kai.3682]

Energy cost only!!!  Having CDs on this class is an abomination to why it was created in the first place.

[Infinity.2876]

I think it would be cool to have just energy costs for utilities, elite, and heal. And have no energy costs for weapon skills.

It would be a lot better than just copying thief.

It would be terribly hard to balance tho

Edited September 15, 2023 by Infinity.2876

[Sereath.1428]

You have no idea how hard they would nerf every single utility.
And all that for what? Just to get a thief but backwards.

That's the point of energy right now, that you can't just camp a single legend and keep spamming the same skills. You have to make the most of your current energy pool and plan ahead. You have to make big decisions every 9 seconds if you want to play the class at its best.

What is the fascination of coming up with ideas that just make things more shallow?

Edited September 15, 2023 by Sereath.1428

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

23 minutes ago, Sereath.1428 said:

You have no idea how hard they would nerf every single utility.
And all that for what? Just to get a thief but backwards.

That's the point of energy right now, that you can't just camp a single legend and keep spamming the same skills. You have to make the most of your current energy pool and plan ahead. You have to make big decisions every 9 seconds if you want to play the class at its best.

What is the fascination of coming up with ideas that just make things more shallow?

This is the answer (especially the “nerfing all utilities” part). This is how Rev was designed and is the intended gameplay design from the class. I’m always so confused why there are so many Rev players who want to completely change core functionality of the class to make it something fairly different! Changes should be made to enhance functionality or add to the class, not change core aspects of a class simply because a subset of players might prefer that. 
 

edit: If core functionality changes do need to happen for the profession, these should be pushed into Elite Spec design space, since this was literally the purpose of the elite spec system since it’s inception. 

Edited September 15, 2023 by LucianTheAngelic.7054

[Axelteas.7192]

9 hours ago, Infinity.2876 said:

I think it would be cool to have just energy costs for utilities, elite, and heal. And have no energy costs for weapon skills.

It would be a lot better than just copying thief.

It would be terribly hard to balance tho

100% agree. I love revenant, it could be my main class, but the experience is ruined by the crazy high energy cost of utilities and elite.

Instead of enjoying the fight you have to be constatly worried because in 3 clicks you run out of energy.... most of the time people have to swap legend NOT because they want to, but because they rune out of energy too quick.

[Za Shaloc.3908]

On 9/14/2023 at 8:45 PM, LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

The system is fine as is. If they remove energy costs on weapons then CDs on utility skills will be increased due to having higher energy availability. They just need to balance energy costs/CDs appropriately. In many cases CDs on Rev ARE still lower (by a couple or few seconds) than other similar abilities from "Cooldown Classes"

 

This. The system at its foundational level is just fine. Great, even. No need to rework something that ain't broke. 

[Lonewolf Kai.3682]

On 9/15/2023 at 7:33 PM, LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

This is the answer (especially the “nerfing all utilities” part). This is how Rev was designed and is the intended gameplay design from the class. I’m always so confused why there are so many Rev players who want to completely change core functionality of the class to make it something fairly different! Changes should be made to enhance functionality or add to the class, not change core aspects of a class simply because a subset of players might prefer that. 
 

Sorry Lucian, but you are absolutely wrong here. The original design and release of the class was to be a throw back to GW1, including the energy only cost to skills.  It then slowly over time began getting all these CDs slapped on it.

You’re more than welcome to have the opinion of stating the class is fine as is, but do not get that confused with the actual history of the class.

Edited September 17, 2023 by Lonewolf Kai.3682

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

5 hours ago, Lonewolf Kai.3682 said:

Sorry Lucian, but you are absolutely wrong here. The original design and release of the class was to be a throw back to GW1, including the energy only cost to skills.  It then slowly over time began getting all these CDs slapped on it.

You’re more than welcome to have the opinion of stating the class is fine as is, but do not get that confused with the actual history of the class.

As someone who has played Rev since Beta in HoT and mains the class, what you've stated here does not actually match up with the history of the class at all. By the time it released with HoT, the finalized (non-beta) version of the class had both energy costs and CDs on most skills. Yes, the CDs have increased on many skills since the initial release, but since official release the class has never been "just energy" across the board and has ALWAYS mixed the two.

Also I don't know what you're talking about with GW1 being "energy cost only" on skills. This is demonstrably false. Please refer to this skill list: https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/List_of_all_skills. Feel free to click skills on the list and check their energy and CD costs. I ran down most of the list just to see if what you claimed was accurate at all because it's been a few years since I've played GW1, but the claim is absolutely false. GW1 skills by and large across the board (not all, but most) have BOTH an energy cost AND a CD.

[Lonewolf Kai.3682]

On 9/17/2023 at 3:56 PM, LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

As someone who has played Rev since Beta in HoT and mains the class, what you've stated here does not actually match up with the history of the class at all. By the time it released with HoT, the finalized (non-beta) version of the class had both energy costs and CDs on most skills. Yes, the CDs have increased on many skills since the initial release, but since official release the class has never been "just energy" across the board and has ALWAYS mixed the two.

Also I don't know what you're talking about with GW1 being "energy cost only" on skills. This is demonstrably false. Please refer to this skill list: https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/List_of_all_skills. Feel free to click skills on the list and check their energy and CD costs. I ran down most of the list just to see if what you claimed was accurate at all because it's been a few years since I've played GW1, but the claim is absolutely false. GW1 skills by and large across the board (not all, but most) have BOTH an energy cost AND a CD.

 I was one the testers of the class before the three public alpha releases and am the person responsible for the idea of the unique dodge mist effect added, so I think I do known what I am talking about.  Roy’s design for the class was an energy based only class was very clear.  He was quite reluctant to add any CDs on the skills.

As for my comment to GW1, you are correct somewhat.  The premises of the skill idea for Rev was supposed to be based on GW1’s energy system and not its CDs.  Sorry for my confusion, it’s been a while since I was in those testing cycles/discussions.

edit:  upon thinking back to release, the only thing I can remember having CDs added to the skills were the healing skills.  I’d refer to the old forum discussions about adding CDs to subsequent skills, but that’s long gone.  Lol, I do remember sword 3 quickly getting a CD added to it though.  That may have happened during one of the alphas.  The spamming of it was hilarious.

Edited September 19, 2023 by Lonewolf Kai.3682

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

On 9/19/2023 at 6:08 AM, Lonewolf Kai.3682 said:

 I was one the testers of the class before the three public alpha releases and am the person responsible for the idea of the unique dodge mist effect added, so I think I do known what I am talking about.  Roy’s design for the class was an energy based only class was very clear.  He was quite reluctant to add any CDs on the skills.

As for my comment to GW1, you are correct somewhat.  The premises of the skill idea for Rev was supposed to be based on GW1’s energy system and not its CDs.  Sorry for my confusion, it’s been a while since I was in those testing cycles/discussions.

edit:  upon thinking back to release, the only thing I can remember having CDs added to the skills were the healing skills.  I’d refer to the old forum discussions about adding CDs to subsequent skills, but that’s long gone.  Lol, I do remember sword 3 quickly getting a CD added to it though.  That may have happened during one of the alphas.  The spamming of it was hilarious.

That's pretty cool you were involved in the early alpha testing. I'm sure that was a unique and fun experience!

Regardless though, I don't think that Alpha (or even Beta really) should count when trying to assess what the "original design and release of the class" was, though. That would be kind of like looking at the roughest of drafts for a novel/script/art piece and then claiming that the original rough draft was "the actual vision" of the piece, ignoring the improvements/changes that made it into the polished final version.

I don't think alpha/beta designs really deserve consideration as "the true original design of the class" or "how the class should be" since there's a reason those features never made it to the initial official release. If we're going to compare "Rev now" to "Rev then" it's best we look at the original official release iteration and then compare from there since that's the version of the class that the collective group of developers decided was "what Rev should be" and became what 99.9% of Rev players have played/understood to be "what Rev is." It's effectively the "final draft" that actually got made into a movie/novel/art piece and not one of the first few "rough draft" iterations.

That's not to say that we can't look at Alpha/Beta designs and pull ideas from there, but there are reasons why those concepts were abandoned or changed before the official release and to revert Rev backwards towards those states would be to fundamentally alter the class into something that doesn't fully resemble the actual "official release" or "what Rev is." There is design space to make an Elite Spec much more Energy vs. CD based, though, which is where I would rather they add something like that if they're going to do that; no need to rework the entire class just to trade one gameplay style for another.

 

Edited September 22, 2023 by LucianTheAngelic.7054

[Buran.3796]

On 9/19/2023 at 3:08 PM, Lonewolf Kai.3682 said:

  Roy’s design for the class was an energy based only class was very clear.  He was quite reluctant to add any CDs on the skills.

  Roy was not the main designer of the Rev, a guy which has been out of ANet for very long...

  Lots of things weren't set in stone, also: originally Rev was meant to use a single weapon (which would have been terrible given the current design of them) and was released with a single aquatic weapon with 2 autoattacks. Some weapons did change entirely (off hand sword), some partially (hammer), the way in which Mallyx and Shiro utilities worked is entirely different now.

   I think that at PvE the energy costs are fine, since Charged Mist do wonders there and some builds rely mostly in autoattacks. In PvP the problems are different: Charged Mist is garbage there, but the problems have other roots: Herald lacks condition cleanses, Ventari lacks a breakstun, Vindicator has no cc, Jalis is too neutered. Herald has been op for 6 years and half until the release of EoD; since then Rev have been extremely inconsistent, changing from being op for small periods  while ANet played with the Vindicator dodges to the current state in which is just too weak tho showcase any impact in the MATs.

   By the way this evening is the MAT; I wounder if the changes in runes, relics and weapon mastery would have any relevance in the class...

[Mike.7983]

Energy cost was to balance the lower skill cooldowns right? Feels like skills are costing to much and spend more time on auto attacking than all other classes. Def feel like the weapon skills 1-5 should be free to use, and leave energy to the remaining.  Or lower the skill costs per so its not a mindless auto until able to swap stances again.  Shiro needs to be looked at, who will seriously ever use jade at 50 cost.

Edited September 22, 2023 by Mike.7983

[arazoth.7290]

5 hours ago, Buran.3796 said:

, Ventari lacks a breakstun, 

Isn't needed since the stability update. Apart from that, the abilties keep working if ccd + now enough stability to prevent it, if people still have trouble now then it is their fault.

 

5 hours ago, Mike.7983 said:

 Shiro needs to be looked at, who will seriously ever use jade at 50 cost.

for pvp I occasionally use it, pve no. But in general some small energy cost reduction like 35 energy, same for dwarf stance elite. While we are at it, make the cast time for both 0,75 seconds 

[Buran.3796]

2 hours ago, arazoth.7290 said:

Isn't needed since the stability update. Apart from that, the abilties keep working if ccd + now enough stability to prevent it, if people still have trouble now then it is their fault.

  Oh, I never had a problem with Ventari or Kalla...  Because I never use them.

  See: the legends are competing for a slot in a profession which can't freely chose skills from 6 to 10, so they have tradeoffs. You value what a legend provides across all its skills and then compare with the others and finally you make your two choices, and in general for those two the value was never there: there's better choices.

   Is like the hammer: a weapon which has 3 skills with no damage in PvP, so it isn't even take into consideration. People doesn't need to "adapt" or "learn to use it", they just ignore it and move towards better choices. The same rules applies to profession choices.

[arazoth.7290]

5 hours ago, Buran.3796 said:

  Oh, I never had a problem with Ventari or Kalla...  Because I never use them.

  See: the legends are competing for a slot in a profession which can't freely chose skills from 6 to 10, so they have tradeoffs. You value what a legend provides across all its skills and then compare with the others and finally you make your two choices, and in general for those two the value was never there: there's better choices.

   Is like the hammer: a weapon which has 3 skills with no damage in PvP, so it isn't even take into consideration. People doesn't need to "adapt" or "learn to use it", they just ignore it and move towards better choices. The same rules applies to profession choices.

each legend has something to deal with cc, some are better at it then others yes. Ventari is on top of the list next to dwarf and alliance stance with handling cc in their own way.

Since you never even touched ventari, you have only read or saw others using it but never experienced it yourself. Whenever the time comes, you will see that.

About hammer, each of the weapon skills does good damage, auto attack may be little bit higher to compete others. Or decreasing cast time if it by 0,25 sec and little boost to damage of auto. For the rest skill 2 and 3 damage is pretty good.  But I think you rather have a problem with landing them which results in 0 damage, that's a skill issue and awareness of surrounding where you use it.

I am not saying hammer doesn't needs some look into, but I am saying that it isn't even close how you make it seem. Hammer lines up in nit your ordinary revenant meta build/playstyle, so that might be it too.

I am already waiting on confused looks by who ignorant ^^

[MatyrGustav.6210]

On 9/22/2023 at 7:19 PM, Mike.7983 said:

Energy cost was to balance the lower skill cooldowns right? Feels like skills are costing to much and spend more time on auto attacking than all other classes. Def feel like the weapon skills 1-5 should be free to use, and leave energy to the remaining.  Or lower the skill costs per so its not a mindless auto until able to swap stances again.  Shiro needs to be looked at, who will seriously ever use jade at 50 cost.

I agree.

The legend Skills should be the only thing tied to Energy. Each legend brings unique abilities, and should be tied to their own Legends energy. Using legend energy for weapon skills seems odd since the legends are not providing your weapon attacks per se.

I find myself using all my energy just using weapon attacks. I find myself swapping legends just so i can be able to use more weapon attacks. It doesn't seem right. 

As far as balance goes, maybe the costs of the utility skills could be increased. 

Another option could be having Mist Energy for weapons, and Legend Energy for utilities.

 

[Lonewolf Kai.3682]

On 9/22/2023 at 12:53 AM, LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

That's pretty cool you were involved in the early alpha testing. I'm sure that was a unique and fun experience!

Regardless though, I don't think that Alpha (or even Beta really) should count when trying to assess what the "original design and release of the class" was, though. That would be kind of like looking at the roughest of drafts for a novel/script/art piece and then claiming that the original rough draft was "the actual vision" of the piece, ignoring the improvements/changes that made it into the polished final version.

I don't think alpha/beta designs really deserve consideration as "the true original design of the class" or "how the class should be" since there's a reason those features never made it to the initial official release. If we're going to compare "Rev now" to "Rev then" it's best we look at the original official release iteration and then compare from there since that's the version of the class that the collective group of developers decided was "what Rev should be" and became what 99.9% of Rev players have played/understood to be "what Rev is." It's effectively the "final draft" that actually got made into a movie/novel/art piece and not one of the first few "rough draft" iterations.

That's not to say that we can't look at Alpha/Beta designs and pull ideas from there, but there are reasons why those concepts were abandoned or changed before the official release and to revert Rev backwards towards those states would be to fundamentally alter the class into something that doesn't fully resemble the actual "official release" or "what Rev is." There is design space to make an Elite Spec much more Energy vs. CD based, though, which is where I would rather they add something like that if they're going to do that; no need to rework the entire class just to trade one gameplay style for another.

 

Doesn’t matter what you think, that is what the class was designed to be, and release was still closer to less CD, or CD times, than what we have today.  However at this point, we’re just arguing semantics about what is and isn’t intended class design, and it’s obvious we’re going to have to just agree to disagree.   No more discussion on this please because we’re starting to cross into derailing the topic.

 

On 9/22/2023 at 7:13 PM, Buran.3796 said:

  Roy was not the main designer of the Rev, a guy which has been out of ANet for very long...

  Lots of things weren't set in stone, also: originally Rev was meant to use a single weapon (which would have been terrible given the current design of them) and was released with a single aquatic weapon with 2 autoattacks. Some weapons did change entirely (off hand sword), some partially (hammer), the way in which Mallyx and Shiro utilities worked is entirely different now.

   I think that at PvE the energy costs are fine, since Charged Mist do wonders there and some builds rely mostly in autoattacks. In PvP the problems are different: Charged Mist is garbage there, but the problems have other roots: Herald lacks condition cleanses, Ventari lacks a breakstun, Vindicator has no cc, Jalis is too neutered. Herald has been op for 6 years and half until the release of EoD; since then Rev have been extremely inconsistent, changing from being op for small periods  while ANet played with the Vindicator dodges to the current state in which is just too weak tho showcase any impact in the MATs.

   By the way this evening is the MAT; I wounder if the changes in runes, relics and weapon mastery would have any relevance in the class...

Oh yes, the class was very much his design.  Also, he didn’t leave until after HoT’s release.  However, no point in this path of discussion since it’s irrelevant to the topic. 

Edited September 27, 2023 by Lonewolf Kai.3682

[Sobx.1758]

On 9/15/2023 at 6:03 PM, MatyrGustav.6210 said:

The problem i have with the current system is that it promotes swapping Legends just to regain energy more so than i believe it should.

"The system is made to promote the exact mechanic whole class is made around and I don't like it" -well, in that case simply pick another class. It's not like rev legend swapping design only "takes" and doesn't "give" anything in return. If you want "only energy costs", play thief.

Edited September 27, 2023 by Sobx.1758

[MatyrGustav.6210]

2 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

"The system is made to promote the exact mechanic whole class is made around and I don't like it" -well, in that case simply pick another class. It's not like rev legend swapping design only "takes" and doesn't "give" anything in return. If you want "only energy costs", play thief.

We are talking about Revenant, and possible systematic improvements to the weapon system. We all know there are other classes . 🙂 

 

[Sobx.1758]

1 hour ago, MatyrGustav.6210 said:

We are talking about Revenant, and possible systematic improvements to the weapon system. We all know there are other classes . 🙂

I'm well aware we're talking about revenant, I'm not sure how that addresses what I said though? Any improvement is a "possible improvement", it doesn't make it in any way a good idea which is being pointed out to you, repeatedly. 🙂 

Meanwhile your OP states:

On 9/14/2023 at 5:44 AM, MatyrGustav.6210 said:

Currently, all profession weapon skills utilize a cooldown. Thief's weapon skills only utilize Initiative, but have no cooldown. Revenant Weapon skills have both cooldowns & an energy cost. 

The class isn't "just that one thing I nitpicked in my thread in order to propose a random buff", but a full package. I'd start telling you why rev isn't based only on energy, but surely you'll just tell me that you know how revenant legends work, similarly like you just did with "knowing there are other classes". Except that if you know how it works then you should probably know why cooldowns are also present for rev.

[MatyrGustav.6210]

14 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

I'm well aware we're talking about revenant, I'm not sure how that addresses what I said though? Any improvement is a "possible improvement", it doesn't make it in any way a good idea which is being pointed out to you, repeatedly. 🙂 

Meanwhile your OP states:

The class isn't "just that one thing I nitpicked in my thread in order to propose a random buff", but a full package. I'd start telling you why rev isn't based only on energy, but surely you'll just tell me that you know how revenant legends work, similarly like you just did with "knowing there are other classes". Except that if you know how it works then you should probably know why cooldowns are also present for rev.

Thats subjective. I think its a good idea.  I welcome all thoughts. I understand you dont, and thats ok. 

Revenants are based In energy.

I really dont understand what youre trying to do or say. You cant force people to see things your way.  How you feel, is not the end all be all on the way things are. 

 

Edited September 28, 2023 by MatyrGustav.6210