Poll: Should Revenant weapon skills have both an energy cost & cooldown?

[Sobx.1758]

1 hour ago, MatyrGustav.6210 said:

Revenants are based In energy and cooldowns.

Fixed for factual accuracy. If you welcome all thoughts, first of all you should welcome the factual state of the class, as well as the reasoning for why it works like it does. If they wanted to make revenant into another thief, there would be next to no point in introducing revenant in the first place. You want to keep spamming skills easier and more freely while ignoring the core design of the class. The changes (or rather: buffs to the class) you propose go against what revenant is and subsequently against the point of its introduction into the game.

"but you don't like its design!" -well, that's tough. But then again, you can pick one of the other 8 classes, including the one that you brought up in OP as your main example (or maybe inspiration) of "energy based class".

Edited September 28, 2023 by Sobx.1758
its

[MatyrGustav.6210]

On 9/28/2023 at 1:16 PM, Sobx.1758 said:

Fixed for factual accuracy. If you welcome all thoughts, first of all you should welcome the factual state of the class, as well as the reasoning for why it works like it does. If they wanted to make revenant into another thief, there would be next to no point in introducing revenant in the first place. You want to keep spamming skills easier and more freely while ignoring the core design of the class. The changes (or rather: buffs to the class) you propose go against what revenant is and subsequently against the point of its introduction into the game.

"but you don't like its design!" -well, that's tough. But then again, you can pick one of the other 8 classes, including the one that you brought up in OP as your main example (or maybe inspiration) of "energy based class".

I actually Voted for Weapons having cooldowns Only, and Utility skills using energy only. Its the opposite of the Thief.

I added the option for energy only on the OP because i didnt want to be biased.

That being said, if Revenant was energy only, it wouldnt be another Thief, and saying "go play Thief" is ridiculous since Thief and Revenant have completely different move sets and playstyles.

You also should understand that a lot of people that play Revenant are Support folks, something that Thief doesnt have a lot of. So saying to switch is very silly. 

Edited September 29, 2023 by MatyrGustav.6210

[Sobx.1758]

34 minutes ago, MatyrGustav.6210 said:

I actually Voted for Weapons having cooldowns Only, and Utility skills using energy only. Its the opposite of the Thief.

I added the option for energy only on the OP because i didnt want to be biased.

That being said, if Revenant was energy only, it wouldnt be another Thief, and saying "go play Thief" is ridiculous since Thief and Revenant have completely different move sets and playstyles.

You also should understand that a lot of people that play Revenant are Support folks, something that Thief doesnt have a lot of. So saying to switch is very silly. 

Cool, except your "justification" in OP seems to be nothing more than this:

On 9/14/2023 at 5:44 AM, MatyrGustav.6210 said:

Currently, all profession weapon skills utilize a cooldown. Thief's weapon skills only utilize Initiative, but have no cooldown. Revenant Weapon skills have both cooldowns & an energy cost. 

And as I already noted (and you avoided addressing at all) :

On 9/27/2023 at 11:18 PM, Sobx.1758 said:

"The system is made to promote the exact mechanic whole class is made around and I don't like it" -well, in that case simply pick another class. It's not like rev legend swapping design only "takes" and doesn't "give" anything in return. If you want "only energy costs", play thief.

 

Revenant doesn't have energy costs only, because it's not made to only have energy costs. People already explained to you that it would be nerfed hard, so whatever that change would bring probably still wouldn't be in line with what you baselessly imagine here.

Edited September 29, 2023 by Sobx.1758

[Obtena.7952]

I always felt no.

1. I don't really see the purpose of having two systems in place to limit a player's actions (other classes prove one is enough).

2. Having two action-limiting systems doesn't really enhance the immersion/fantasy of the class

3. it's unnecessarily complex on Anet's side to balance it. For example, even if a CD is changed (or a energy cost) it doesn't necessarily result in a reduction of the effect attached to that skill as the thing being changed might not be the dominate it's frequency of usage. 

Obviously energy would be the favoured system here if there was only one. Otherwise you just have a class that has fixed skillbars as it's 'mechanic' ... which is kinda stupid. Also, pretty much a completely academic discussion at this point. 

Edited September 29, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[Cuks.8241]

I like the current system. Rev flows really well for me right now and yeah you need to constantly swap legends but that is fine, its unique to rev and there are other classes that play differently if you dont like it. If you really don't want to swap legend because you will get locked out of a certain skill because you just really need it, well don't swap it and wait a second or 2. Will you lose damage output? Sure. But thats called a trade off.

I wouldnt like another thief. Nothing against thief, its good that we have a unique class like that. But I don't like the concept of spamming your single best skill for the situation. Also it would require huge changes to weapons. We have some really strong skills and it would either require big nerfs or big increases in energy cost.

Rev weapon skills have generally low enough CD already but the energy will limit you in chaining everything you got. So you need to limit your skill usage. This alows for really strong skills but forces you to chose between them. And I really like that concept. Makes for a very strong and versatile kit but also tactical gameplay otherwise you will starve.

[foxtrot.6902]

At least as far as great sword & sword go, excessive dmg output already seems kept in check with cds so having an energy cost on top of that does seem like a double tax. At the expense of being able to use utilities/legendaries as needed for a situation vs having to swap for more energy.

Would love to use the stun break in Shiro sometimes but there's probably like a 2.5sec window where that's actually available lol

[arazoth.7290]

38 minutes ago, foxtrot.6902 said:

At least as far as great sword & sword go, excessive dmg output already seems kept in check with cds so having an energy cost on top of that does seem like a double tax. At the expense of being able to use utilities/legendaries as needed for a situation vs having to swap for more energy.

Would love to use the stun break in Shiro sometimes but there's probably like a 2.5sec window where that's actually available lol

You would use it as often as you are doing now. Without energy cost on weapons, legendary stance skills would get a higher energy cost.

Why it would get a higher energy cost if that was done =>

legendary skills are more spammable now because no weapon energy cost anymore, so more OP. If it gets a higher cost and weapon have none, you have to wait longer for certain skills to recharge which can be even worse then how it currently is.

You really think they would remove weapon cost without increasing legendary stance skills costs. It would be an OP buff.

Or on the other hand, they don't increase energy cost but nerf the abilties power since it can be used more. Now you have more fodder abilties used more often.

 

Energy on both is  how it's done. Some core stance abilties need a few energy cost shave though (dwarf + shiro elite 35 energy cost instead and 0,5 sec less cast time). 

 

 

[Zaret.1450]

Ok my take in this would be that weapon skills are cd based, and then energy is used for legend skills, why? theres a couple reasons.

As we are now with cd and energy mixed it might be okay, usable, but this way means problems with both playing and balancing, revenant should be one of the classes with more skills abaliable, with more tools for each ocasion, but in reality most utility skills are usually locked behind the legend swap and the huge energy costs, of course this is probably meant for strategic playing and thinking, but in the end it penalizes more than it helps , compared to other classes managing energy is much more tiring and punishing, and swaping legends doesnt mean youre better as your other legend might be a bad kit for the moment, of course weapons do not consume that much energy, but as you use it on every skill it becomes a constant drain of energy that being serious is completely unnecesary, 5-10 energy drain is just like a mosquitoe, incredibly bothersome , moreso in bad moments .

Also having both mecanics fused together means balancing is also worse, if we have a skill too strong you can increase the drain, but then that added to the cd means now its too weak for the use it has.

Instead having weapons on cd and legends on energy is better in my opinion, of course you could have cd on skills like jalis road for example, that are very good, but most leyend skills already have a cost of 20-40 energy and we start at 50, even at top we wouldnt be able to spam and if we could just putting a 2 sec cd or increasing that skill energy cost would sufice.

Also if the devs were to get crazy they could implement another mecanic to drain energy , like using an f3 button to overcharge mist energy on one weapon skill/leyend skill more drain but interesting effects or altogether create a mist manipulation skillset wich we can substitute any legend skill with, meaning we could have 2 mist skills, and 3 leyend skills, and the swap only affects the leyend slots, its maybe too close to any other classes but its just ideas.

In the end the mecanic must be both a limit and a reward to the class, and energy as of now isnt enought rewarding and too limiting with cd combined, dividing them would be a good first step to a better energy mecanic sistem.

[foxtrot.6902]

 

Edited November 13, 2023 by foxtrot.6902
double post

[foxtrot.6902]

1 hour ago, arazoth.7290 said:

You would use it as often as you are doing now. Without energy cost on weapons, legendary stance skills would get a higher energy cost.

Why it would get a higher energy cost if that was done =>

legendary skills are more spammable now because no weapon energy cost anymore, so more OP. If it gets a higher cost and weapon have none, you have to wait longer for certain skills to recharge which can be even worse then how it currently is.

You really think they would remove weapon cost without increasing legendary stance skills costs. It would be an OP buff.

Or on the other hand, they don't increase energy cost but nerf the abilties power since it can be used more. Now you have more fodder abilties used more often.

 

Energy on both is  how it's done. Some core stance abilties need a few energy cost shave though (dwarf + shiro elite 35 energy cost instead and 0,5 sec less cast time). 

 

 

Energy on both is how it's currently done, ya. It's just an observation not trying to jump 20 steps ahead on how they'd balance it, there are tons of options on how to approach that.

Long and short, I'd be down for any tweak that let's you play the game more vs playing the energy bar. 

[arazoth.7290]

People are freaking out on energy meld already+ related traits changes because they think it can take 1-2 years till it works. And you want to rework for every legendary stance their energy cost, since it affects them all. Also the power lvl of these abilties need to be considered then + corresponding traits. This would be too much rework to watch every lege skill energy cost...

Rather reduce slightly on few too expensive abilties the energy cost, for more regular useage.

For example with shiro. Elite skill 35 energy+ lower cast time, phase traversal 20-25 energy, impossible odds 6 energy upkeep cost.

Most elite stance energy costs are fine. With dwarf stance elite same as shiro elite.

off topic:

• give each stunbreak minimum 3 seconds yourself stability upon break.

[Yasai.3549]

I'm just gonna chime in and say people won't be so upset with the Energy Cost in addition to cooldown if Revenants started with 100 Energy when entering combat. It's because you start out with 50 before you even perform your first moves that severely limit the actions you can take, making Energy costs on weapons feel like a spit in the face. 

This goes for both if the Revenant is an aggressor or a defender. They're shafted for every moment before a fight even initiates due to the 50 energy. 

[Zaret.1450]

The biggest problem of rev mecanic is that it works only as a limit, you can play around it, optimize and do great, but it is not rewarding, necro shroud transforms you in a literal beast, an oh kitten run away till hes out of it, warrior charges adrenaline and then makes a huge blow, you can fail but its not that punishing, as for thief its cd initiative split gives it sooo much freedom, you can drain your initiative for dmg and still have skills of your choosing, or be out of cd but still manage to fight with your weapons.

rev instead is locked on energy management, plus weapon management, and legend management, wich means many limits and no real reward for it, in jalis/shiro combo, jalis can tank and heal, even do a bit of dmg, but wont be able to flee or burst someone, and if you swap youre again on 50 energy on shiro, with skills that drsin from 25 to 50 , an awfull heal and you can flee or do dmg but youre out of energy in 2 seconds and cant swap for another 5 , energy needs a more rewarding sistem i think.

[Sobx.1758]

11 hours ago, Yasai.3549 said:

I'm just gonna chime in and say people won't be so upset with the Energy Cost in addition to cooldown if Revenants started with 100 Energy when entering combat. It's because you start out with 50 before you even perform your first moves that severely limit the actions you can take, making Energy costs on weapons feel like a spit in the face. 

This goes for both if the Revenant is an aggressor or a defender. They're shafted for every moment before a fight even initiates due to the 50 energy. 

They're not "shafted" in any way because their energy costs are balanced around that exact energy amount. And again, all of this is balanced around the core concept of the class where you're supposed to keep switching between legends. "everyone would be happy but lets just multiply our resources without touching costs" is just so out of nowhere.

2 hours ago, Zaret.1450 said:

The biggest problem of rev mecanic is that it works only as a limit, you can play around it, optimize and do great

That's false, swapping legends gives you acces to more skills and recharges your main resource. It "only works as a limit" if you intentionally ommit everything else it does.

[Sobx.1758]

Bad assumptions are bad. And as already mentioned, if you want to play like a thief, play thief. Inherent differences between the classes are the reason those classes exist.

 

e: the post I was responding to is no longer here.

Edited November 16, 2023 by Sobx.1758

[MatyrGustav.6210]

3 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Bad assumptions are bad. And as already mentioned, if you want to play like a thief, play thief. Inherent differences between the classes are the reason those classes exist.

option 2 of the poll is the only choice similar to a Thief in being energy only for weapon skills. 

That being said, just because a class is energy focused doesnt mean it plays like a Thief. Thief has a completely different moveset than Revenant, and if the Energy Only option was inplemented, it is still very different from Thief since Revenants Utility skills will be energy only as well, unlike Thief. So stop saying go play Thief, it sounds very silly. 

[Sobx.1758]

12 minutes ago, MatyrGustav.6210 said:

option 2 of the poll is the only choice similar to a Thief in being energy only for weapon skills. 

My post was answering to the one directly above it which still keeps ranting about "but thief...!".

12 minutes ago, MatyrGustav.6210 said:

That being said, just because a class is energy focused doesnt mean it plays like a Thief.

Sure, which is why reventant has energy AND other things -some of which you want to remove or diminish- that makes it mechanically different from a thief. Which... is the point. If you or the guy above wants to keep repeating "but x class has...!" then go play "x class". Nitpicking "only bad things I have" and "only good things they have" in isolation makes no sense and isn't basis for a change here.

12 minutes ago, MatyrGustav.6210 said:

So stop saying go play Thief, it sounds very silly. 

I'll do that the very moment you and the other guy stop saying what amounts to nothing else than "but that other class has it!". Until then... the response you're complaining about doesn't sound any more silly than what both of you keep saying. Not sure which part of this you're still not understanding.

Edited November 15, 2023 by Sobx.1758

[Shao.7236]

It's silly that after all these years some people still think that Revenant should never have cooldowns or shared energy with weapons.

Most don't realize the grand scale of implications and limitations it would bring if it meant that I could use certain skills without the consequence of energy or utility having so much energy to the point where Revenant would have to be balanced in such a whacky way we couldn't avoid cooldowns at all, it would break the game to not give cooldowns, increase costs or lower energy regen.

The fact that weapons use energy is the reason why Revenant can get away with low CDs to none at all.

Just accept it.

[MatyrGustav.6210]

1 hour ago, Shao.7236 said:

Most don't realize the grand scale of implications and limitations it would bring if it meant that I could use certain skills without the consequence of energy or utility having so much energy to the point where Revenant would have to be balanced in such a whacky way we couldn't avoid cooldowns at all, it would break the game to not give cooldowns, increase costs or lower energy regen.

 

The thing is that energy isnt a consequence if you are consistently swapping legends. It brings you back to 50% everytime. The issue this causes is switching to a legend just for energy and not for tactical reasons. 

If your argument was true, then Revenants would already be doing more damage weapon wise than other classes, but they dont. So, whats the energy cost for? Energy costs on weapons are just a gimmick in my opinion. 

I really dont see Anet having to rebalance a lot if option A in the poll was implemented.  Remove weapon energy costs, and increase energy costs for utility skills by 5% or so and call it a day.

Edited November 17, 2023 by MatyrGustav.6210

[arazoth.7290]

9 minutes ago, MatyrGustav.6210 said:

The thing is that energy isnt a consequence if you are consistently swapping legends. It brings you back to 50%. The issue this causes is switching to a legend just for energy and not for tactical reasons. 

If your argument was true, then Revenants would already be doing more damage weapon wise than other classes, but they dont. So, whats the energy cost for? Energy costs on weapons are just a gimmick in my opinion. 

I really dont see Anet having to rebalance a lot if option A in the poll was implemented.  Remove weapon energy costs, and increase energy costs for utility skills by 5% or so and call it a day.

And now you're swapping weapons just to spam cds off cooldown as fast you can. This would increase damage on revenant a lot. There wil be nerfs rendering stuff useless... . 

Also 2 weapon slots have circa around 60 energy total atm, which will be spammed as fast as off cd as you can for more damage. ( talking about pve here for that part mostly )

Energy will be increased/legendary stance by  total +/- 60 energy spread around the abilties.

A lot of the times if you switch stance, you use a legendary stance ability (obviously). You still start with 50 energy. Imagine you try to use dwarf stability road, you used now 45 energy instead of 30. You now have less choice to choose what other legendary skill you could have used... .

 

With current energy system + cds you can use stability road and for example wait 4 seconds for rite of the great dwarf. while auto attacking during these 4 seconds because you want to share this buff to allies. During these 4 seconds you gained enough energy to press it.

Now lets sketch trying to those when you swap to dwarf and use it with 45 energy on stab road. You need now 35 energy extra to cast stability road. That is 7 seconds waiting instead of 4 seconds... That is 75% longer....

 

 

So either what I am trying to say if this would been done. Damage would get nerfed on weapons to compensate or increased energy which will give situations like sketched above. This is all if you want no increased cds, because that is also an off trade to compensate that. Or last, legendary abilties get reduced effects...

And no cd's on weapon skills is just as bad..., cc, evades, blocks and highest damaging abilties would get abused... . There is a reason for these cds but not too high.

I don't like these side effects which this gives to revenant to become this... 

LET REVENANT STAY WITH ENERGY ON WEAPONS AND LEGENDARY SKILLS + THEIR LOW CD'S 

[Shao.7236]

3 hours ago, MatyrGustav.6210 said:

The thing is that energy isnt a consequence if you are consistently swapping legends. It brings you back to 50% everytime. The issue this causes is switching to a legend just for energy and not for tactical reasons. 

If your argument was true, then Revenants would already be doing more damage weapon wise than other classes, but they dont. So, whats the energy cost for? Energy costs on weapons are just a gimmick in my opinion. 

I really dont see Anet having to rebalance a lot if option A in the poll was implemented.  Remove weapon energy costs, and increase energy costs for utility skills by 5% or so and call it a day.

It wouldn't be just 5%, with any competent players you see if weapons have no costs then the majority of the time in the current way things are you'd get energy capped all the time on core legends, every skills would have cost 50% or more which is not something I even want to think about.

The phenomenon already exists with Herald in PvP where players don't play around with upkeep facets if at all and always cap the energy, taking energy from weapons would have the same symptoms that Herald has.

[Fritz.4285]

I have played a decent amount of revenant lately and it just feels like a reverse thief so far. With thief I find utility skills good to change the flow of battle when needed (due to cooldowns) and weapon skills the main way to engage with enemies. With revenant the utility skills are the way I fight and the weapons are just sort of there. Besides the energy cost the long cooldown (5 sec for some weapon skills and above 10 sec for most) makes anything besides the free auto attack a drain upon the much better  utility that are both faster and stronger. 

In PvE at least I really think revenant would benefit from some rebalancing. Others have stated some solutions, but personally I am on the side of either everything cost energy, or the weapons are free but with cooldown.

[MatyrGustav.6210]

On 1/13/2024 at 3:29 PM, Fritz.4285 said:

I have played a decent amount of revenant lately and it just feels like a reverse thief so far. With thief I find utility skills good to change the flow of battle when needed (due to cooldowns) and weapon skills the main way to engage with enemies. With revenant the utility skills are the way I fight and the weapons are just sort of there. Besides the energy cost the long cooldown (5 sec for some weapon skills and above 10 sec for most) makes anything besides the free auto attack a drain upon the much better  utility that are both faster and stronger. 

In PvE at least I really think revenant would benefit from some rebalancing. Others have stated some solutions, but personally I am on the side of either everything cost energy, or the weapons are free but with cooldown.

Agreed.

Based on the poll results so far, it seems as though more people want change vs. no change.

[arazoth.7290]

10 hours ago, MatyrGustav.6210 said:

Agreed.

Based on the poll results so far, it seems as though more people want change vs. no change.

except you interpret the statistics wrong.

Most people want change in total numbers only for 2 categories combined.

If you look for the category chosen in option, which of the 3 should stay then the original stays.

 

It is a poll which of the 3 options and the last is the clear winner. The other 2 in total are more but are too much split up. The group that wants "change", doesn't has an idea where they want the change clearly. 

Yet the group that wants it to stay the same has a clear idea what they want. Statistics show it, numbers aren't deargumenting me here.

[frazazel.7501]

As a newer Revenant player who only plays Herald so far, I find the energy + cooldown system a bit frustrating. I need to use drain my energy to maintain boons, fine. But that only leaves energy for weapon attacks, while never getting to use any of my non-draining utility skills. And the skills don't even feel like they're particularly lower cooldown to compensate for making my utility skills unavailable.

I get that this is more a problem for Heralds than for other classes, and that greater skill with the class will probably give me opportunities to use some skills some of the time. But it doesn't feel great as a player that is newer to the class.