Alternative to Alliances - Static Server Pairing

[KingHeaven.4590]

Ok, if alliances is too difficult to implement I have an alternative fix.  We all know the problem is the population distribtion.  Maguuma crushes everyone because they have the most WvW players then any other server.  How do you fix this?  Add more players to the other servers, but we can't do that because the servers are full with PvE players.  So this is another way to fix the problem.

Stop with these server pairing changing every 3 months.  What you do is make a top 9.  Make it so there are ONLY 9 WvW Servers and every other server feeds into these 9 servers.  That means we have 3 WvW maps rotating every week.  There will still be rotations within those 9 but the second servers paired and changing every 3 months will STOP.

What we need is STATIC server pairing.  Make it so that the servers that need more players but are full have static secondary servers, so we all know where to go to help those servers out, essentially making those WvW servers BIGGER.  The top 3 servers, will - not - have a secondary server matched to them because they are already full of WvW Servers.

Here is an example with the top 9 and the full list of 24 servers.  The Tier 1 servers will NOT have a secondary server, the Tier 2 and Tier 3 servers will have 2 servers added to them which DO NOT rotate.

I created a Tier 4 with the 3 bottom servers.  I think having those servers as "non-competitive" practice WvW servers would be a cool idea.  Players who do not play WvW or who just play casually can join those servers and the number of players there will be very low.  Basically like a practice server.

Now Tier 2 and Tier 3 servers can add as many WvW players as they need to match the numbers of the Tier 1 servers and we have more competitive and fair play.

Tier 1   - Competitive

1     Maguuma    - no secondary server, already enough WvW players
2     Isle of Janthir    - no secondary server, already enough WvW players
3     Blackgate    - no secondary server, already enough WvW players

Tier 2  - Competitive
4     Sea of Sorrows    -  10     Yak's Bend ,    11     Ferguson's Crossing    
5     Fort Aspenwood - 12     Eredon Terrace,  13     Borlis Pass    
6     Darkhaven  -   14     Ehmry Bay    , 15     Sanctum of Rall

Tier 3  - Competitive
7     Jade Quarry  - 16     Gate of Madness    , 17     Crystal Desert
8     Anvil Rock - 18     Kaineng    , 19     Northern Shiverpeaks  
9     Tarnished Coast -  20     Sorrow's Furnace    , 21     Henge of Denravi    

Tier 4   - practice WvW servers, they do not rotate in with the other teams.  These servers are for people who do not want to play WvW or who just want to play non-competitive WvW.

22     Dragonbrand    
23     Stormbluff Isle    
24     Devona's Rest

[blp.3489]

22 minutes ago, AlphaLightBringer.7431 said:

23     Stormbluff Isle

Egads!  Reduced to a lowly practice server. 😭

I'm not not qualified to evaluate the whole scheme but there is one aspect that has some appeal, which is allowing non-competitive players to have a matchup of their own.  As long as it isn't forced, being able to voluntarily relegate yourself to a more casual matchup seems like a good thing.  How many "fight" guilds or veteran gankers will relegate themselves just so they can slaughter the casuals I'm not sure.  If you can provide a more competitive environment for those that want it and a less competitive environment for those that want that, it seems like everyone would win.

[Chaba.5410]

1 hour ago, AlphaLightBringer.7431 said:

We all know the problem is the population distribtion.

Well, good thing that they will still be doing World Restructuring then, eh?

[RisingDawn.5796]

Meanwhile, the EU side is still running Five Tiers over here and has it's own population issues to resolve too.

I think these two months have had some really bad pairings actually, not even 'grass is greener' alt accounters don't have much of a magic bullet as copium this time around, but there's yet another Link cycle this Friday and no more Betas to come, with the promised Guild alliances function they said would come.

Edited September 28, 2023 by CrimsonOneThree.5682

[Dawdler.8521]

"If alliances are too difficult" - suggests an overly complicated solution that solves nothing.

The story of literally every WR alternative.

[TheGrimm.5624]

7 hours ago, AlphaLightBringer.7431 said:

Ok, if alliances is too difficult to implement I have an alternative fix.  We all know the problem is the population distribtion.  Maguuma crushes everyone because they have the most WvW players then any other server.  How do you fix this?  Add more players to the other servers, but we can't do that because the servers are full with PvE players.  So this is another way to fix the problem.

Stop with these server pairing changing every 3 months.  What you do is make a top 9.  Make it so there are ONLY 9 WvW Servers and every other server feeds into these 9 servers.  That means we have 3 WvW maps rotating every week.  There will still be rotations within those 9 but the second servers paired and changing every 3 months will STOP.

What we need is STATIC server pairing.  Make it so that the servers that need more players but are full have static secondary servers, so we all know where to go to help those servers out, essentially making those WvW servers BIGGER.  The top 3 servers, will - not - have a secondary server matched to them because they are already full of WvW Servers.

Here is an example with the top 9 and the full list of 24 servers.  The Tier 1 servers will NOT have a secondary server, the Tier 2 and Tier 3 servers will have 2 servers added to them which DO NOT rotate.

I created a Tier 4 with the 3 bottom servers.  I think having those servers as "non-competitive" practice WvW servers would be a cool idea.  Players who do not play WvW or who just play casually can join those servers and the number of players there will be very low.  Basically like a practice server.

Now Tier 2 and Tier 3 servers can add as many WvW players as they need to match the numbers of the Tier 1 servers and we have more competitive and fair play.

Tier 1   - Competitive

1     Maguuma    - no secondary server, already enough WvW players
2     Isle of Janthir    - no secondary server, already enough WvW players
3     Blackgate    - no secondary server, already enough WvW players

Tier 2  - Competitive
4     Sea of Sorrows    -  10     Yak's Bend ,    11     Ferguson's Crossing    
5     Fort Aspenwood - 12     Eredon Terrace,  13     Borlis Pass    
6     Darkhaven  -   14     Ehmry Bay    , 15     Sanctum of Rall

Tier 3  - Competitive
7     Jade Quarry  - 16     Gate of Madness    , 17     Crystal Desert
8     Anvil Rock - 18     Kaineng    , 19     Northern Shiverpeaks  
9     Tarnished Coast -  20     Sorrow's Furnace    , 21     Henge of Denravi    

Tier 4   - practice WvW servers, they do not rotate in with the other teams.  These servers are for people who do not want to play WvW or who just want to play non-competitive WvW.

22     Dragonbrand    
23     Stormbluff Isle    
24     Devona's Rest

So you want to stack severs I see. That's already been tried, it didn't work in the past when tried in both EU and NA, so I wouldn't recommend that route.

As a stubborn kitten it made me laugh since on SBI and would make some us all the more needing snickers lol. 

[TheGrimm.5624]

6 hours ago, blp.3489 said:

Egads!  Reduced to a lowly practice server. 😭

I'm not not qualified to evaluate the whole scheme but there is one aspect that has some appeal, which is allowing non-competitive players to have a matchup of their own.  As long as it isn't forced, being able to voluntarily relegate yourself to a more casual matchup seems like a good thing.  How many "fight" guilds or veteran gankers will relegate themselves just so they can slaughter the casuals I'm not sure.  If you can provide a more competitive environment for those that want it and a less competitive environment for those that want that, it seems like everyone would win.

🙂 Don't discount our flash mobs. 🙂 We have a lot of stubborn peeps, its just a matter of informing them and then triggering the flash mobs. 🙂 We have a lot of mental peeps, sometimes it just about giving them a target. 🙂 

[TheGrimm.5624]

5 hours ago, Chaba.5410 said:

Well, good thing that they will still be doing World Restructuring then, eh?

I understand your point as we have discussed, but without Alliances am not sure I agree my friend. I am worried that without Alliances this more caters to larger or mega guilds versus medium and smaller guilds. There is a way for those to still group up via community guilds but that than impacts admin, claim rights, upgrade rights and self management of players in the guild. To me based on info we have that leads to just more guilds being thrown to the wind each 8 weeks else joining a larger guild that might lose members they have. Right now without more info I would prefer to keep my server. I say this while in T4 in NA. Random rerolls just means more people I have no idea about, why should I jump into an outnumbered fight? Where as, I see server friends being jumped, I am jumping in to try and get them out. From a server side peep's view, your server matters. With WR alone, it doesn't. Your mileage will vary.

[TheGrimm.5624]

7 hours ago, AlphaLightBringer.7431 said:

Ok, if alliances is too difficult to implement I have an alternative fix.  We all know the problem is the population distribtion.  Maguuma crushes everyone because they have the most WvW players then any other server.  How do you fix this?  Add more players to the other servers, but we can't do that because the servers are full with PvE players.  So this is another way to fix the problem.

Stop with these server pairing changing every 3 months.  What you do is make a top 9.  Make it so there are ONLY 9 WvW Servers and every other server feeds into these 9 servers.  That means we have 3 WvW maps rotating every week.  There will still be rotations within those 9 but the second servers paired and changing every 3 months will STOP.

What we need is STATIC server pairing.  Make it so that the servers that need more players but are full have static secondary servers, so we all know where to go to help those servers out, essentially making those WvW servers BIGGER.  The top 3 servers, will - not - have a secondary server matched to them because they are already full of WvW Servers.

Here is an example with the top 9 and the full list of 24 servers.  The Tier 1 servers will NOT have a secondary server, the Tier 2 and Tier 3 servers will have 2 servers added to them which DO NOT rotate.

I created a Tier 4 with the 3 bottom servers.  I think having those servers as "non-competitive" practice WvW servers would be a cool idea.  Players who do not play WvW or who just play casually can join those servers and the number of players there will be very low.  Basically like a practice server.

Now Tier 2 and Tier 3 servers can add as many WvW players as they need to match the numbers of the Tier 1 servers and we have more competitive and fair play.

Tier 1   - Competitive

1     Maguuma    - no secondary server, already enough WvW players
2     Isle of Janthir    - no secondary server, already enough WvW players
3     Blackgate    - no secondary server, already enough WvW players

Tier 2  - Competitive
4     Sea of Sorrows    -  10     Yak's Bend ,    11     Ferguson's Crossing    
5     Fort Aspenwood - 12     Eredon Terrace,  13     Borlis Pass    
6     Darkhaven  -   14     Ehmry Bay    , 15     Sanctum of Rall

Tier 3  - Competitive
7     Jade Quarry  - 16     Gate of Madness    , 17     Crystal Desert
8     Anvil Rock - 18     Kaineng    , 19     Northern Shiverpeaks  
9     Tarnished Coast -  20     Sorrow's Furnace    , 21     Henge of Denravi    

Tier 4   - practice WvW servers, they do not rotate in with the other teams.  These servers are for people who do not want to play WvW or who just want to play non-competitive WvW.

22     Dragonbrand    
23     Stormbluff Isle    
24     Devona's Rest

Alpha, were you playing when some NA guilds received no links?

[Dawdler.8521]

9 minutes ago, TheGrimm.5624 said:

Where as, I see server friends being jumped, I am jumping in to try and get them out. From a server side peep's view, your server matters. 

But how many friends do you have on your current server? 3% of the total 24/7 population? 5%? 7%? Even more? How many percent would you guess?

Because unless that percent is large enough to count to about a thousand players, you probably still wouldnt give kitten about a majority of your server lol 🤔

[joneirikb.7506]

8 hours ago, AlphaLightBringer.7431 said:

Ok, if alliances is too difficult to implement I have an alternative fix.  We all know the problem is the population distribtion.  Maguuma crushes everyone because they have the most WvW players then any other server.  How do you fix this?  Add more players to the other servers, but we can't do that because the servers are full with PvE players.  So this is another way to fix the problem.

Stop with these server pairing changing every 3 months.  What you do is make a top 9.  Make it so there are ONLY 9 WvW Servers and every other server feeds into these 9 servers.  That means we have 3 WvW maps rotating every week.  There will still be rotations within those 9 but the second servers paired and changing every 3 months will STOP.

What we need is STATIC server pairing.  Make it so that the servers that need more players but are full have static secondary servers, so we all know where to go to help those servers out, essentially making those WvW servers BIGGER.  The top 3 servers, will - not - have a secondary server matched to them because they are already full of WvW Servers.

Here is an example with the top 9 and the full list of 24 servers.  The Tier 1 servers will NOT have a secondary server, the Tier 2 and Tier 3 servers will have 2 servers added to them which DO NOT rotate.

I created a Tier 4 with the 3 bottom servers.  I think having those servers as "non-competitive" practice WvW servers would be a cool idea.  Players who do not play WvW or who just play casually can join those servers and the number of players there will be very low.  Basically like a practice server.

Now Tier 2 and Tier 3 servers can add as many WvW players as they need to match the numbers of the Tier 1 servers and we have more competitive and fair play.

Tier 1   - Competitive

1     Maguuma    - no secondary server, already enough WvW players
2     Isle of Janthir    - no secondary server, already enough WvW players
3     Blackgate    - no secondary server, already enough WvW players

Tier 2  - Competitive
4     Sea of Sorrows    -  10     Yak's Bend ,    11     Ferguson's Crossing    
5     Fort Aspenwood - 12     Eredon Terrace,  13     Borlis Pass    
6     Darkhaven  -   14     Ehmry Bay    , 15     Sanctum of Rall

Tier 3  - Competitive
7     Jade Quarry  - 16     Gate of Madness    , 17     Crystal Desert
8     Anvil Rock - 18     Kaineng    , 19     Northern Shiverpeaks  
9     Tarnished Coast -  20     Sorrow's Furnace    , 21     Henge of Denravi    

Tier 4   - practice WvW servers, they do not rotate in with the other teams.  These servers are for people who do not want to play WvW or who just want to play non-competitive WvW.

22     Dragonbrand    
23     Stormbluff Isle    
24     Devona's Rest

Note:

Quote

Before the July 28, 2015 update, a world population was determined by the population levels from across all game modes. Currently, only the WvW population determines the world population.

Are you also planning to stop transfers? Because I can't see how this would work at all without completely closing down transfers, or entire BG/Maguma/Etc would just transfer to another server. Atm the splitting of teams is the main way the game has to try to break up stacking (yeah, it doesn't do a very good job), and making server pairings permanent it will just open up for more server stacking again, possibly even more than back before Linking.

Also, they tried some of this back when they first added World-Link system, and tried not pairing the top servers in NA, you can also look to EU for the result, as people move about and the servers evens out more and more, the top servers just can't compete alone.

I'd expect the end result of this to be your Tier1 servers to all be permanently stuck in Tier3, making a "fake tier 4".

And as blp said, I'd expect the Tier4 to be stuck with a lot of those "fight guilds" that likes to farm pugs to feel good.

There's also the problem with having the "non-competitive/practise" match-up determined by server pick/transfer. Depending on what server you pick, you get a very different experience of WvW, potentially getting no "training wheels" or not getting to try the "real thing" at all. (and also I'd prefer to see EotM be this)

Note: Feels just weird to not see: Kaineng, Eredon Terrace and Anvil Rock, in the "New Tier8".

[TheGrimm.5624]

21 minutes ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

But how many friends do you have on your current server? 3% of the total 24/7 population? 5%? 7%? Even more? How many percent would you guess?

Because unless that percent is large enough to count to about a thousand players, you probably still wouldnt give kitten about a majority of your server lol 🤔

I see most on SBI as friends after so many years and make bad calls all the time when they find trouble. E-Death, it's whatever since winning means nothing. Your mileage will vary,.

Edited September 26, 2023 by TheGrimm.5624

[TheGrimm.5624]

21 minutes ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

Because unless that percent is large enough to count to about a thousand players, you probably still wouldnt give kitten about a majority of your server lol 🤔

That's where we can disagree. I give a kitten since it is server mates. If I know them or not, but even more so if I do. That's the difference in WR and server. I don't have everyone I see on daily basis on friends, but that doesn't mean I don't see them as such and will try and give them a hand. That's what defines servers to me. You help your peeps out.  They got jumped, jump in and give then a hand. But mileage will vary.

[Dawdler.8521]

1 hour ago, TheGrimm.5624 said:

That's where we can disagree. I give a kitten since it is server mates. If I know them or not, but even more so if I do. That's the difference in WR and server. I don't have everyone I see on daily basis on friends, but that doesn't mean I don't see them as such and will try and give them a hand. That's what defines servers to me. You help your peeps out.  They got jumped, jump in and give then a hand. But mileage will vary.

But... do you have a link? Do you care about them? Do you even know who they are that come and go every 8 week already...

Edited September 26, 2023 by Dawdler.8521

[Mabi black.1824]

5 hours ago, TheGrimm.5624 said:

Alpha, were you playing when some NA guilds received no links?

We in EU do it all the time, week after week. Feel free to justify it in any way if you are able.

When EU players write to you that the competition is hardly credible, they are referring first and foremost to this. And yet it is still there, for many years. Many of us have asked to improve the balance between matches and servers, in reference to this, no one would have ever imagined that the solution was with WR and alliances.

We thought it was something much easier to do and above all to obtain. Just to have the playing conditions that you in na already have.

Getting a solution to this alone in the EU, would be perceived as a radical change of WVW. And I'm sure it would be appreciated by pretty much all EU players. Anet couldn't do anything better.

Edited September 26, 2023 by Mabi black.1824

[XenesisII.1540]

I made a few suggestions like this a long time ago to break the tiers. The only thing I'm gonna add is maybe lower the map caps for the lower tiers, especially the practice tier, this way you can make sure big guilds try to stay on competitive servers, and not just slum it in the lowest tier. Not much point commenting on the rest cause we're getting another system in 2049.

[Nietzsche.5870]

If they roll out matchmaking w/out an alliance function or w/out offering an alternative to easily group guilds outside of consolidation it's going to hurt the alliances made up of small and medium guilds 100%.

 

I don't care about tiers, not like they matter anyway, or where we sit in them; when we're on we just want it bumping and have fun -- I'd rather pairings only lasted a month, mix it up more so we can play w/ diverse groups more often. And have them focus on alliances in it's entirety. Plus I love my server's choyas 🥰

[TheGrimm.5624]

8 hours ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

But... do you have a link? Do you care about them? Do you even know who they are that come and go every 8 week already...

Yes, we have a link. Do I see them the same as the people from my server, no not at first. If a link repeats that varies. But as in the betas when the scramble occurs it removes some of that defend your side feel. 

Edited September 26, 2023 by TheGrimm.5624
expanded point

[TheGrimm.5624]

5 hours ago, Mabi black.1824 said:

We in EU do it all the time, week after week. Feel free to justify it in any way if you are able.

When EU players write to you that the competition is hardly credible, they are referring first and foremost to this. And yet it is still there, for many years. Many of us have asked to improve the balance between matches and servers, in reference to this, no one would have ever imagined that the solution was with WR and alliances.

We thought it was something much easier to do and above all to obtain. Just to have the playing conditions that you in na already have.

Getting a solution to this alone in the EU, would be perceived as a radical change of WVW. And I'm sure it would be appreciated by pretty much all EU players. Anet couldn't do anything better.

The thought at times in NA is let some servers have no link, what did we see when this occurred was those server dropped to the bottom tiers but then still dominate their timezones, they just lost coverage. So no I don't think that would solve issues. WR without considering coverage may face the same issues.

[Dawdler.8521]

2 hours ago, TheGrimm.5624 said:

Yes, we have a link. Do I see them the same as the people from my server, no not at first. If a link repeats that varies. But as in the betas when the scramble occurs it removes some of that defend your side feel. 

Then make up your mind, you either help only "your server" or you dont care because in reality you often dont know if the people you are fighting beside are "your server" since around half of them isnt on your link. So yeah, "no not at first" perfectly describe a WR shuffle lol. You either help people because they're on your team or you dont. WvW business as usual.

Personally I dont even see why people are so insisting on wanting to keep fighting alongside the same people that they've seen for a decade, outside of guilds. I'd rather fight and kill them 🤷‍♂️

The last WR was quite a disappointment when one of the main guilds on my server ended up on the same team ☹️

Edited September 26, 2023 by Dawdler.8521

[TheGrimm.5624]

10 hours ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

Then make up your mind, you either help only "your server" or you dont care because in reality you often dont know if the people you are fighting beside are "your server" since around half of them isnt on your link. So yeah, "no not at first" perfectly describe a WR shuffle lol. You either help people because they're on your team or you dont. WvW business as usual.

Personally I dont even see why people are so insisting on wanting to keep fighting alongside the same people that they've seen for a decade, outside of guilds. I'd rather fight and kill them 🤷‍♂️

The last WR was quite a disappointment when one of the main guilds on my server ended up on the same team ☹️

I am not sure where the confusion comes from. I have seen the same names for 8+ years, I am going to aid. You think I have seen the same link for 8 years? Not so much, I guess I don't get where you haven't been able to tell your server mates from your link mates? My snarky friend, why are you trying to paint this picture? I have seen us relinked with various servers and actually linked twice in a row with the same server, which at the time was a first. Maybe this is an issue of you seeing more new guilds being created versus exiting guilds that persistent over time. Maybe its a NA vs EU bandwagon issue. No not a first means I have fought and then paired with guilds I have fought and depending on interactions I will aid, win or lose, hence the caveat. "Honored enemy" is a valid point to me. People I have fought I can still defend and enjoy when we team, but when they are against my server, I am still going to attack when they jump a server mate. Be that roamer on roamer. Havoc vs Havoc or small scale versus large scale. I have found peeps I like for various reasons among many lines and combinations, but I still will defend my peeps first and hope to add more to their ranks, even while I roam or havoc. I would come and hunt with you my shark-toothed friend if they allowed regions to mix, but not a fan of server transfers since as I said, am more server side peeps, and we still need more peeps. Good hunting!

[XenesisII.1540]

7 hours ago, TheGrimm.5624 said:

I am not sure where the confusion comes from. I have seen the same names for 8+ years, I am going to aid. 

Grim won't help if I pull a zerg on my head, confirmed. 😩

🤭

[ChrisWhitey.9076]

I think we need to start over when it comes to WvW. I say leave the current WvW as is and make a ranked version that groups you in a server based on personal skill level. Do better get moved up need to do better stay where you are. Ranked is great for a healthy commentative game mode that is better designed to help improve players that want to get better and the current WvW has its own problems with that. Not saying this is a solution to the many WvW issues we have but it would be nice to have competitive WvW rewards and rankings back if done the right way. 

Edit - Just to be clear the Ranked idea would need to have its own new server grouping system and needs to leave unranked completely unrelated.

Edited September 27, 2023 by ChrisWhitey.9076

[XenesisII.1540]

30 minutes ago, ChrisWhitey.9076 said:

I think we need to start over when it comes to WvW. I say leave the current WvW as is and make a ranked version that groups you in a server based on personal skill level. Do better get moved up need to do better stay where you are. Ranked is great for a healthy commentative game mode that is better designed to help improve players that want to get better and the current WvW has its own problems with that. Not saying this is a solution to the many WvW issues we have but it would be nice to have competitive WvW rewards and rankings back if done the right way. 

Edit - Just to be clear the Ranked idea would need to have its own new server grouping system and needs to leave unranked completely unrelated.

For rankings they needed a separate rated battlegrounds like wow has. Instanced, up to 25v25, leaderboard.

Or take the spvp automated tournament and scale it to 15/20/25 with an appropriate map.

But that would require wvw having a full time dev on it. 🤷‍♂️

[TheGrimm.5624]

1 hour ago, XenesisII.1540 said:

Grim won't help if I pull a zerg on my head, confirmed. 😩

🤭

Was some awesome pulls last night lol. Told peeps to be ready for some avalanches if you grabbed the tag.