Make it make sense to me.

[Squee Squashington.5189]

For context, I've had everything at 80 (besides necro) and have been trying to figure out how ele (my most recent end game class) gets value out of a power build (zerker, marauder, dragon, soldier, etc.) I was able to build for support and condi without too much trouble because like other classes you put on the condi gear, spec into the condi traits, and most of it just falls into place.

So I get that thematically, ele is a mage. You have one of (if not the lowest) stat values for both vitality and toughness in the game. As a mesmer main I get it. But as ele, you don't have access to stealth, you don't have distortion or much in the way of evades, even teleport is a shorter range than blink which between that and the available weapon designs, most of your builds options have you stuck in melee. So while this may seem like a rant, i'm moreso trying to figure out what the trade off is.

1.) What does ele bring to the table defensively? How does one stay alive? Lol. There's 2 utilities I've been using (one gives ~5k barrier, the other is tempest that gives a decent amount of protection) but aside from that it doesn't feel like much. There's weapon skills in earth attunement that give invul or reflect, but often enough by the time you've swapped stance and activated the skill, most of the burst has gone off. And on top of that, now you're stuck in earth stance for a few seconds where your power-focused gear is essentially meaningless. I've tried looking for options in water, while there's some decent option for condi cleansing, frost aura is a weaker/often shorter version of protection, and with the exception of hammer 4, most of the healing abilities seem to scale poorly in power-centric gear.

2.) "The best defense is a good offense." as the old saying goes, and is what you'd expect from a build that sacrifices innate survivability. Thief runs into similar issues and has similar criticisms of "being hard to stay alive" by new players. But stealth attacks help you burst a target down before survivability becomes and issue. Even in builds that aren't focused on stealth, you can typically dump initiative to burst a target down. Even on mesmer, you have phantasms tied to every weapon set dishing out 3k+ damage before ferocity and a mind wrack (or variant) doing about the same every 10-12 seconds.

2b.) So where does ele get its damage from? Fire stance has some strong spells, but many times it feels like the value you get from power, precision and ferocity is capped as to not overperform since there is a baseline burning that is applied. It reminds me of Guardian where a lot of your attacks will apply burning and your dps will benefit if you're attacking a burning target, but the burning itself was very little damage and your "white damage" would gain the full benefit of your power stats. With ele it almost feels like they're trying to pigeon-hole you into playing cele/vipers.

The next logical option would be swapping into air, but with maybe 1-2 exceptions most of the air attunement skills can't even compete with phantasms or stealth attacks or any other class's "big damage skills." While I can appreciate that 1 stack of blind or a few seconds of shocking aura are not worthless, the damage feels so low that it almost seems better to just go into earth and let the baseline bleeding do all the damage.

[peperoncino.2516]

not sure you are talking about pve, wvw, or pvp even, so ill talk more general approach.

49 minutes ago, Squee Squashington.5189 said:

i have been trying to figure out how ele (my most recent end game class) gets value out of a power build

as ele, you have less overall weapons than other classes, third of those weapons for some reason are only good for condi damage (scepter, focus), while other third is outdated to all hell (staff, dagger). yep. if you want to run somewhat of an efficent power build, then you better absolutely adore playing sword/horn. can do oh dagger too ig.

1 hour ago, Squee Squashington.5189 said:

What does ele bring to the table defensively? How does one stay alive? as ele, you don't have access to stealth, you don't have distortion or much in the way of evades, even teleport is a shorter range than blink which between that and the available weapon designs, most of your builds options have you stuck in melee

eles teleport deals damage tho, so its all good and balanced (i tell myself shambling towards any other prof). in all seriousness, there are good defensive skills available to ele, be it auras, reflects, evades and all such. most of them are partywide, too! but, as you rightfully noted..

1 hour ago, Squee Squashington.5189 said:

often enough by the time you've swapped stance and activated the skill

...yea, about that. its what separates a decent ele from your usual downstate enjoyer. again, by design, you have to rotate through attunements as fight goes, and you have just way more skills than any other prof, aint that great? meaning, you have to have a good idea on how a certain fight will go for you, just so you are in a correct attune with a needed skill not on cooldown by the time you require access to it. best way to do it, is to be the one who dictates how that fight goes (obviously, ik). so, learn to pressure enemies into whats to you an expected situation, then its same old as they say.

that said, lack of additional mobility will either way cripple you no matter what weapons/utilities you try to equip. good, embrace it. rather, try playing around your limited mobility - let enemies come to you. for example: focus objectives, jump clueless enough dudes, or bait to quickly pop a guy before they have a way out. can also provide decent support to zergs if you are into that. yeah, it might sound a bit sucky how a "multifaceted spellcaster" is pigeonholed more than basically anyone, but it just do be like that nowadays.

if you are still unsure, check what historically good ele builds were all about, it should give you a good idea on what the prof excels at.

1 hour ago, Squee Squashington.5189 said:

With ele it almost feels like they're trying to pigeon-hole you into playing cele/vipers.

a side effect of anet at some point removing eles "hybrid" tax that was there since launch - your scalings on heals are decent, while base is plain kitten. tax itself was reintroduced in a way of +healing stat btw. issue is old as time, really. in short, due to how condi builds scale, they usually can opt for some other stat along +cdamage/duration on their gear, and it usually will be +healing. thing is, power builds are losing tad too much by trying to follow same pattern, specially the case for ele.

[Squee Squashington.5189]

6 hours ago, peperoncino.2516 said:

as ele, you have less overall weapons than other classes, third of those weapons for some reason are only good for condi damage (scepter, focus), while other third is outdated to all hell (staff, dagger). yep. if you want to run somewhat of an efficent power build, then you better absolutely adore playing sword/horn. can do oh dagger too ig.

This was kind of a relief to read. The weapons from elite specs do feel more in line with how other classes' weapons perform. Where as the core weapons seems to underperform when building for power.

Thanks all in all for the feedback.

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

The answer to the question on defenses really depends on which spec that you're playing, and in what game mode.  I'm assuming most of this is written for PVE, so I'll be taking that perspective.  Generally, it is going to come from blinds, and it will come from auras.  Glyph of storms is a utility skill that gets used on nearly every build, and for good reason.  If you need defenses, using Storms while in Earth will cast Sandstorm, which will pulse blinds for 11 seconds in an area.  Warhorn also has a pulsing blind field in Earth.  An often underrated option also comes from Arcane Shield, which is good in a pinch.  Auras are defensive for Tempest and Catalyst, who can use them quickly on demand  Mostly it is Magnetic Aura to stop projectiles.  There's also a few blocks on off-hand focus, and on catalysts Earth Augment, Earth Hammer, and Earth Sphere when the boon trait is taken.  There is also some blocks on Earth Shield and an invuln skill in Mist Form.

Weaver is a bit different.  It's defenses come more from its evades, and also the immense amount of self-barrier it can generate.  Personally when I'm playing Weaver, I take the Fresh Air trait.  This allows me to use the evades on sword 2 without having to stick in water and earth for too long, while also letting me chain CCs together to break bars.  Weaver also has Twist of Fate for a utility dodge.  It also bears mentioning that there are many ways for ele to get vigor for more dodges, protection, and also inflict weakness on enemies.  All of the specs can do it, but Weaver excels at vigor and weakness.

Having high self sustain is an option you can build for, but unless you're planning on soloing champions it isn't much worth it.  Hammer has decent self-healing without investment, and many specs run the healing signet.  The good self-sustain is mostly just a side effect of running celestial gear, which lets you mash buttons in water attunement for some self-healing.  You can do it on pure damage builds, too, and I have done this in several high-damage raids to keep myself alive, but without the healing power from celestial/zealots/marshals it shouldn't be your main tactic for survival.

 

Elementalist damage is more spread out than other professions.  There are a couple of standouts, such as Pyro Vortex, Lightning Storm, Lightning Orb, and Grand Finale.  However, your method of doing damage is having a lot of good skills to use, and not one great one.  Tempest will use all of their DPS skills in one attunement before swapping back to Fire/Air for their overload.  Catalyst uses almost every skill on its bar as it goes through all 4 elements, putting down spheres in each.  Weaver has high auto damage and alternates between air and fire with Bolt to the Heart, but with the Weave Self portion and with Fresh Air they will pop into the other attunements for a quick high-value skill.  

[soulknight.9620]

14 hours ago, peperoncino.2516 said:

you have just way more skills than any other prof

Just saying, this take is outdated af. Just look at the current state of other classes:
Ele has 20 weapon skills +5 utilities+sphere from cata (u might argue its 4 separate skills, but reasonably its not). Thats 25-26 skills. (not counting conjures cause they are on a tight cd). 

Engie has 5 weapon skills +5 utilities+5 toolbelt skills+ 10 kit skills (which can be 5x5=25 skills, but lets be realistic and assume you use 2 kits). Thats 23 skills (with options of more kits). 

Mesmer has 10 weapon skills+4-5 shatters+5 utilities. Thats 19-20 skills.

Guardian has 10 weapon skills+3 virtues (or 15 skills if FB)+5 utilities. Thats 18-30 skills depending on elite spec. 

Necro has 10 weapon skills+5 shroud skills+5 utilities. Thats 20 skills. 

Ranger has 10 weapon skills (or 12 with untamed)+5 utilities+1-4 pet skills (depending on elite spec)+5 CA skills in druid (if druid elite equiped). Thats 16-21 skills.

Thief has 10 weapon skills (with 0 cd)+5 utilities+2 (steal+stolen skill)+5 specter form (if specter equiped). Thats 17-22 skills.

Revenant has 10 weapon skills+10(or 15 with vindi stance). I will not count in that F2 skill. So thats 20-25 skills.

Warrior has 10 weapon skills + 5 utilities +2burst skills(not counted for bladesworn)+5 (f2 mode if bladesworn equiped). Thats 17-20 skills. 

[xellink.7568]

29 minutes ago, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

Having high self sustain is an option you can build for, but unless you're planning on soloing champions it isn't much worth it.  Hammer has decent self-healing without investment, and many specs run the healing signet.  The good self-sustain is mostly just a side effect of running celestial gear, which lets you mash buttons in water attunement for some self-healing.  You can do it on pure damage builds, too, and I have done this in several high-damage raids to keep myself alive, but without the healing power from celestial/zealots/marshals it shouldn't be your main tactic for survival.

Raids are easier with high defence and decent damage. Elementalist are one of the classes that can hybridize with celestials and not get called out for not contributing. Other classes also come into mind, but they are few, scourge, soulbeast, renegade, firebrand, mirage. While other classes only have 1 or no especs that can use celestials, Elementalists are a whole new species. 

16 hours ago, Squee Squashington.5189 said:

2.) "The best defense is a good offense." as the old saying goes, and is what you'd expect from a build that sacrifices innate survivability. Thief runs into similar issues and has similar criticisms of "being hard to stay alive" by new players. But stealth attacks help you burst a target down before survivability becomes and issue. Even in builds that aren't focused on stealth, you can typically dump initiative to burst a target down. Even on mesmer, you have phantasms tied to every weapon set dishing out 3k+ damage before ferocity and a mind wrack (or variant) doing about the same every 10-12 seconds.

2b.) So where does ele get its damage from? Fire stance has some strong spells, but many times it feels like the value you get from power, precision and ferocity is capped as to not overperform since there is a baseline burning that is applied. It reminds me of Guardian where a lot of your attacks will apply burning and your dps will benefit if you're attacking a burning target, but the burning itself was very little damage and your "white damage" would gain the full benefit of your power stats. With ele it almost feels like they're trying to pigeon-hole you into playing cele/vipers.

The next logical option would be swapping into air, but with maybe 1-2 exceptions most of the air attunement skills can't even compete with phantasms or stealth attacks or any other class's "big damage skills." While I can appreciate that 1 stack of blind or a few seconds of shocking aura are not worthless, the damage feels so low that it almost seems better to just go into earth and let the baseline bleeding do all the damage.

With celestials on any espec, a lot of 'bite-sized' combos become possible and that is incredibly hard to predict which is a good thing in PVP but a ?bad? thing in PVE (for the commanders who need to babysit). These combos are innumerable for elementalist. Some of this is amplified, because of free boon duration, (e.g. Condi alac tempest) or increased critical chance (e.g. power weaver) which also opens up more gear combos, like celestials, grieving, balthazar runes, etc. The question is now balancing trade-offs between utilities and lowering DPS will then contribute to the fight. With regards to just power dps, I have seen scamcrow players top the charts with power DPS builds on ele. .

Most players aren't intelligent/diligent enough to create efficient builds. e.g. there are people with balthazar runes who overcap on condi duration, or people who crit cap for no reason on weaver. Neither can most players be trusted with carrying mechanics, therefore herding people to do higher DPS is the norm for most commanders. If it were a static, we would trust each other to do the right thing, but never in a PUG.

For our guild's training raids, the recommended DPS is 20k, and a lot of players start asking "What should I do if i already hit 20k or if my DPS is high and beyond the required?". There is certainly no harm going higher but eles have a lot of ways to contribute to the end result of a dead boss compared to say power deadeye, condi willbender or power bladesworn. 

[Dadnir.5038]

Defense wise:

• Fire attunment: evade frame, blind
• Air attunment: Daze/stun, blind, weakness, pull/knockback/knockdown/launch, projectile block, movement speed buffs

Now, against defiant foes, most of this is useless but this mechanism is a balance issue that impact a lot more than just power elementalist's survivability.

When attunments/weapon skills are not enough, thought, you still have access to utilities: Arcane shield, armor of earth, mist form, conjure earth shield, evade frame on conjure flame axe and fiery GS, aoe blind on air signet, tornado + various e-specs defensive utility skills (stone resonance, twist of fate, fortified earth, rebound...). Or various traits effects bringing either sustain through barrier/heal/boons/debilitating conditions or unique effects like final shielding.

 

[peperoncino.2516]

1 hour ago, soulknight.9620 said:

Just saying, this take is outdated af. Ele has 20 weapon skills +5 utilities+sphere from cata (u might argue its 4 separate skills, but reasonably its not). Thats 25-26 skills. (not counting conjures cause they are on a tight cd)

yeah, sure ig. every jade sphere is exactly the same skill.. despite attune specific cd, different boon output and practical application. also, exactly why not count conjures? kits also have their cd, you counted them just fine.

not mentioning tempest or weaver at all, too xD

all the while counting each basic mesmer shatter separately. yeah, sure...

[soulknight.9620]

1 hour ago, peperoncino.2516 said:

yeah, sure ig. every jade sphere is exactly the same skill.. despite attune specific cd, different boon output and practical application. also, exactly why not count conjures? kits also have their cd, you counted them just fine.

not mentioning tempest or weaver at all, too xD

all the while counting each basic mesmer shatter separately. yeah, sure...

Easily explained. Jade spheres are exactly the same skill. The flavour of attunement (which comes down to 1-2 boon difference) doesnt actually make it a different skill mechanically otherwise i would have to list as a separate skill arcane skill with GM trait that makes them apply diff condies. And every single trait interaction with every single skill for other classes (like druid cele avatar skills that do condies or dont, sigil skills that have 2 modes etc). Which would actually put ele far far beneight other classes. And cmon, jade sphere application is always the same - pump up a combo field and get some boons. Thats it.

You could count conjures if it would be on demand with no abyssmal cd. Engie kits have 0 cd. Same as FB tomes. Mesmer shatters are mechanically unique (first one does power damage, second one condi, third dazes, fourth is a safe skill, fifth either a utility or another safe/dps) and they always are present regardless of your build and elite spec. I dont see you complain that i havent included lich form for necro and juggernaut form of warrior (which would net 4-5 skills depending on how you count) or some double/tripple tap skills (like daredevil/vindicator skills for example) or a rev f2 skills or mantras last charge (which by your logic would be considered a separate skill). So... 

If we count in weaver dual skills and/or tempest OLs it would get you with: 29 skills with tempest and 31 for weaver. Every class on average has 20-25+ skills (some builds have more, some less). And if you compare it to average ele skill count thats lets say 25-29, surely you can see that the difference is not that big that you actually should make a "but ele has more skills" argument. It was true when gw2 launched and until most elite specs added a lot of skill "slots/mechanics". 

You could make a hypothetical absurd build like 5 kit engie (35 for engie) or 4 conjure ele and get 41+ skills (thats for ele) just to prove me wrong (or right), but noone in his sane mind would actually play it. 

[peperoncino.2516]

17 minutes ago, soulknight.9620 said:

The flavour of attunement (which comes down to 1-2 boon difference) doesnt actually make jade sphere a different skill mechanically otherwise i would have to list as a separate skill arcane skill with GM trait that makes them apply diff condies. Mesmer shatters are mechanically unique (first one does power damage, second one condi, third dazes, fourth is a safe skill, fifth either a utility or another safe/dps) and they always are present regardless of your build and elite spec. And cmon, jade sphere application is always the same - pump up a combo field and get some boons.

"and cmon" indeed. do you really not think different jade spheres actually have different applications in practice? each one has a different cd, a completely different boon output, and a different combo field too.

i cannot stress this enough, i just dont get how you can treat each shatter differently when most of them have same range, use same resource, use same mechanic even - clones get close and blow up, but then the differend cd, the aoe prot (often also aegis), and the poison combo field of earth sphere are apparently no different to the simple might and fire field of the fire sphere? some guides even specifically mention how you can quickly switch attune to then drop an earth sphere while in a cc to help mitigate damage, just as an example of a community-acknowledged different application - in no way will one sphere is able to substitute another.

but i digress. in short, while all "deploy jade sphere" skills do have a sameish size field and are casted with the same targeting method, each also has different use cases specific for it.

which brings me to another question, can you please define what "different skill mechanically" even means to you?

3 hours ago, soulknight.9620 said:

You could count conjures if it would be on demand with no abyssmal cd. Engie kits have 0 cd. Same as FB tomes.

okay, i glossed over it at first, but do you care to explain your reasoning for such statement? or "thats how i roll" sort of thing? how exactly having "abyssmal cd" just makes it impossible for conjured weapons to qualify as a different set of skills for ele to use? heck, you can even have 100% uptime on all conjures except the elite one. it having a cooldown does not outright delete it from the game lmao, it still remains an option, conjures are a thing.

anyway, your statement leaves too much for imagination. hence, the further explanation is required.

4 hours ago, soulknight.9620 said:

they always are present regardless of your build and elite spec. I dont see you complain that i havent included lich form for necro and juggernaut form of warrior (which would net 4-5 skills depending on how you count) or some double/tripple tap skills (like daredevil/vindicator skills for example) or a rev f2 skills or mantras last charge (which by your logic would be considered a separate skill). So... 

it should not really matter now if skills are only present depending on "build", for you yourself went to list engis kits (even assumed an average of two kits per engi, heckin kek) and especs as examples of profs having access to a lot of skills. and yet, you constantly compare different, specific builds to either a core ele, with no two conjures per ele policy mind you, or a catalyst, but with different jade spheres all counting as a single skill.

examples you listed too gain their different skills from learning minor adept trait from their respective espec. as such, doesnt make much sense to exclude catas spheres (or any espec mechanic really) or utilities under... what premise exactly? anyhow, it should be same treatment across the board here.

4 hours ago, soulknight.9620 said:

If we count in weaver dual skills and/or tempest OLs it would get you with: 29 skills with tempest and 31 for weaver. Every class on average has 20-25+ skills.

even going by your own write up, the average amount of skills for other profs is not 20-25+, but ~19. yea, a bit less compared to "29 skills with tempest and 31 for weaver" (or 29 for cata), isnt it? 

[soulknight.9620]

12 minutes ago, peperoncino.2516 said:

"and cmon" indeed. do you really not think different jade spheres actually have different applications in practice? each one has a different cd, a completely different boon output, and a different combo field too.

I will not repeat myself, but judging by that logic arcane blast with elemental surge is 4 different skills based on the attunement you are in? Well you know, you do have different "applications" either you are in earth (immobilize), air (blind), water (chill) or fire (burn), right? I can even save my life while being cced by throwing an immob/blind onto a mob to buy some time. 

17 minutes ago, peperoncino.2516 said:

how exactly having "abyssmal cd" just makes it impossible for conjured weapons to qualify as a different set of skills for ele to use? heck, you can even have 100% uptime on all conjures except the elite one.

The same reason i didnt mention lich, juggernaut etc, double/tripple taps, chain skills, druid glyphs etc. You do realise that if i take every skill i didnt mention (for a good reason though) and actually put it into account avg skill count of the classes comapared to ele would rise. So im actually giving you an edge here. 

Most conjures are a gimmick outside some spvp/wvw builds and even there you use a skill and drop it. And that 100% uptime means you have to 1. stay still on the spot where you dropped your conjure, 2. keep other players away from the conjure, 3. find a reason to stick with it for 25-30 seconds (and not drop it after 1-2 secs). 

Again, judging by your logic i should include downstate skill too, cause well you can get 100% uptime on downstate and use these skills. And they are unique per class after all. 

26 minutes ago, peperoncino.2516 said:

it should not really matter now if skills are only present depending on "build", for you yourself went to list engis kits (even assumed an average of two kits per engi, heckin kek) and especs as examples of profs having access to a lot of skills.

Yes, it does matter. Why would you want to make assumptions on something that doesnt see any play, and is present in the game for some weird reason? Should i count race skills too? Bundles? Battle tonics? 
If you take a closer look at engie builds then you will notice that a lot of them are using 1-3 kits, so they should be taken into account because: 1) they are usefull, like its 3+ usefull skills in a kit, 2) they actually see play, 3) there is literary no cd and the skills are availible to you on demand. 

I dont get your fixation on the especs. I did say especs are a thing didnt i? 

32 minutes ago, peperoncino.2516 said:

and yet, you constantly compare different, specific builds to either a core ele, with no two conjures per ele policy mind you, or a catalyst, but with different jade spheres all counting as a single skill.

I did say weaver and tempest have more skills than a core ele, didnt I? 

33 minutes ago, peperoncino.2516 said:

examples you listed too gain their different skills from learning minor adept trait from their respective espec. as such, doesnt make much sense to exclude catas spheres (or any espec mechanic really) or utilities under... what premise exactly? anyhow, it should be same treatment across the board here.

Thats the point. Its "different skills", not one skill that changes flavour. I could use 3 arcane blasts in different attunements to get different condies out, doesnt make it 3 different skills though. 

36 minutes ago, peperoncino.2516 said:

even going by your own write up, the average amount of skills for other profs is not 20-25+, but ~19. yea, a bit less compared to "29 skills with tempest and 31 for weaver" (or 29 for cata), isnt it? 

I listed 8 classes without ele. These were: 

Engie has 23 skills. Avg 23.

Mesmer has 19-20 skills. Avg 19 (rounded down)

Guardian has 18-30 skills. Avg 24

Necro has 20 skills. Avg 20

Ranger has 16-21 skills. Avg 19 (rounded up)

Thief has 17-22 skills. Avg 20 (rounded up)

Revenant has 20-25 skills. Avg 22 (rounded down)

Warrior has 17-20 skills.  Avg 19 (rounded up)

23+19+24+20+19+20+22+19= 21 (20.75, round it up). 

Thats not 19 by any means. Thats just pure math. But analysis is not "just" math, its context. Which means some builds, classes, especs have more play than others. For example FB is played x3 times of the others especs of guardian. And if i recall correctly FB is played around 12-13% of all of the played especs across all classes. Thats why i put 20-25 as an average skill count for most of players to include a mathematical avg and deviation based on most played specs. Yes, it is an estimate, cause anet forgot to provide me with all of the necessary statystics this morning.  

So even if i take the minimum of 20 skills on average and compare it to 25 (core/cata)-29(tempest)-31(weaver) its not much of a difference. And if you take the maximum of that avg (25) its barelly noticeable. 

 

 

 

[peperoncino.2516]

9 hours ago, soulknight.9620 said:

I will not repeat myself

well, then i guess i will. a little, at the very least, for you completely ignored an important question of mine:

11 hours ago, peperoncino.2516 said:

which brings me to another question, can you please define what "different skill mechanically" even means to you?

it is a guessing game otherwise, unless we could decide on some common ground.

9 hours ago, soulknight.9620 said:

judging by that logic arcane blast with elemental surge is 4 different skills based on the attunement you are in? Its "different skills", not one skill that changes flavour. I could use 3 arcane blasts in different attunements to get different condies out, doesnt make it 3 different skills though. 

so, by your logic now, each sphere at base is exactly the same skill... because it only "changes flavour", and because trait named elemental surge makes changes upon arcane skills that make them also do other stuff..? okay, ill try at explaining this concept. different spheres act not only as a way to modify some other ability, but also as a standalone tool. thats despite your decision to view it as "flavour", for different use cases (one of which i already presented to you, but whatever ig) do exist for each sphere. more importantly, having access to spheres only increases the amount of actions and decisions available for the player, which is quite unlike your mentioned modifier trait - it only acts transformatively on a select amount of skills.

meaning, once you select such trait - your previous set of decisions are traded for another one, and from that moment you cannot make decisions or act with what you had before the trait, and are only able to make decisions involving a traited version of the skills. thats the basics of the concept.

9 hours ago, soulknight.9620 said:

The same reason i didnt mention lich, juggernaut etc, double/tripple taps, chain skills, druid glyphs etc. You do realise that if i take every skill i didnt mention (for a good reason though) and actually put it into account avg skill count of the classes comapared to ele would rise. So im actually giving you an edge here. 

Most conjures are a gimmick outside some spvp/wvw builds and even there you use a skill and drop it. And that 100% uptime means you have to 1. stay still on the spot where you dropped your conjure, 2. keep other players away from the conjure, 3. find a reason to stick with it for 25-30 seconds (and not drop it after 1-2 secs). 

...okay, but... well, first of all, do i even dare to once again ask what a "good reason" it actually might be? i guess i kind of did ask again now, didnt i? well, yeah, further explanation still is required.

having i.e a chain skill like sword autos is quite different in practice to just having an unchanging variation of it. for the player, decision making is available on when to interrupt a chain  for something else rather than complete it, while said player would not have such decision with a non-chain variant of the skill.

overall, i feel like you can and did simplify the whole equation, for vast majority cares little for things like not properly completing an auto chain. but, for the sake of being objective, chain skills are seen as more involved at the "top" of the game, however minor amount of peeps that "top" actually represents. i.e check the snowcrows bunch or the such, chain skills are being recognised, mentioned, and treated much differently than others. 

9 hours ago, soulknight.9620 said:

Yes, it does matter. Why would you want to make assumptions on something that doesnt see any play, and is present in the game for some weird reason? Should i count race skills too? Bundles? Battle tonics? 
If you take a closer look at engie builds then you will notice that a lot of them are using 1-3 kits, so they should be taken into account because: 1) they are usefull, like its 3+ usefull skills in a kit, 2) they actually see play, 3) there is literary no cd and the skills are availible to you on demand. 

thats just childish, i thought we were in somewhat of a conversation. what are you on about? how often race skills/bundles/tonic are mentioned in discussions about playing elementalist? cause looking at build sites, conjures do actually come up pretty consistenly. check metabattle - all but three of all raid and/or fractal builds mention cases for using different conjures, often multiples even, while 10 out of 14 pvp conquest builds consider some conjured weapon as a viable choice, and more than third of all builds outright reccomends to run them as default.

so, where do you get that conjures dont "actually see play", huh?

also, why are you so fixated on conjures having a cd? i dont think devs intention was to make them basically exactly like engi kits, or why they have to even be made such to count as a skill swap, and cooldown makes each decision a degree worse than it could have been with no time constrainds, it literally in no way affects the amount of decisions available to the player in the end. 

9 hours ago, soulknight.9620 said:

I dont get your fixation on the especs. I did say especs are a thing didnt i? 

20 hours ago, soulknight.9620 said:

Ele has 20 weapon skills +5 utilities+sphere from cata

as i already said, in your initial comparison you only mentioned core ele and cata, with latter only as a +1 skill too lol. so, you essentially went to compare a basic ele and cata (that you view as a +1) to most especs out there, when historically majority of especs have way more options available to them than core ones. does not make any sense to me how you decided not to differentiate accordingly by comparing core builds and especs among themselves, not to some average of both, and especially makes no sense to just exclude both weaver and tempest while doing so.

9 hours ago, soulknight.9620 said:

Thats not 19 by any means. Thats just pure math. But analysis is not "just" math, its context. Which means some builds, classes, especs have more play than others. For example FB is played x3 times of the others especs of guardian. And if i recall correctly FB is played around 12-13% of all of the played especs across all classes. Thats why i put 20-25 as an average skill count for most of players to include a mathematical avg and deviation based on most played specs.

...

sorry, "pure math" might be tad too much for me. why exactly have you decided on rounding up and down like the numbers are supposed to be integers while in the process of calculating the averages between them? 😜

anyway, the average of what playerbase use wasnt my point, for i did not specify on if spec usually has access to those skills in fights, or has to consider them when starting a fight, for my initial statement was that ele as a whole has way more skills available at once. if you want to have that discussion - i am very much on board, but you yourself basically confirmed my original thought when you had to ignore both tempest and weaver in your initial countdown, as well as all the conjures, and had to only consider core and cata, and even tho latter went only as a +1, it all still ended up on a hefty side.

9 hours ago, soulknight.9620 said:

So even if i take the minimum of 20 skills on average and compare it to 25 (core/cata)-29(tempest)-31(weaver) its not much of a difference. And if you take the maximum of that avg (25) its barelly noticeable. 

so, pure math aside, a jacked "maximum of that average" other profs have, which is 25, is still almost a whole skillbar less than what ele specs have as just a basic average between them, core included. thats according to your numbers, except spheres are ofc counted as different skills, just like they used, and, obviously, rounding up the result ;D

9 hours ago, soulknight.9620 said:

Yes, it is an estimate, cause anet forgot to provide me with all of the necessary statystics this morning.  

..ok. care to share any source for that estimate tho? or for any of your estimates? well, maybe on a next morning? xD

[soulknight.9620]

On 10/7/2023 at 6:34 AM, peperoncino.2516 said:

it is a guessing game otherwise, unless we could decide on some common ground.

Ive already answered that. 

On 10/6/2023 at 1:45 PM, soulknight.9620 said:

Mesmer shatters are mechanically unique (first one does power damage, second one condi, third dazes, fourth is a safe skill, fifth either a utility or another safe/dps)

 

On 10/7/2023 at 6:34 AM, peperoncino.2516 said:

so, by your logic now, each sphere at base is exactly the same skill... because it only "changes flavour", and because trait named elemental surge makes changes upon arcane skills that make them also do other stuff..? okay, ill try at explaining this concept. different spheres act not only as a way to modify some other ability, but also as a standalone tool. thats despite your decision to view it as "flavour", for different use cases (one of which i already presented to you, but whatever ig) do exist for each sphere. more importantly, having access to spheres only increases the amount of actions and decisions available for the player, which is quite unlike your mentioned modifier trait - it only acts transformatively on a select amount of skills.

So just as i said, a variety of the same skill. All of ur mentioned arguments apply to arcane blast. 

 

As for the rest, ive already said what i meant and why i did so. I have nothing to add to that. If you refuse to accept these arguments - thats fine, but i dont see the need of repeating the same thing over and over again. 

[peperoncino.2516]

...

you really did just ignore most of what i said, didnt you? lmao well you do you. 

36 minutes ago, soulknight.9620 said:

Ive already answered that. 

afraid its a little different, for stating how shatters share properties of what makes a "different skill mechanically" is not the same approach as clearly defining such properties.

either way, your narrative is just not consistent. here, ill show you.

37 minutes ago, soulknight.9620 said:

Mesmer shatters are mechanically unique (first one does power damage, second one condi, third dazes, fourth is a safe skill, fifth either a utility or another safe/dps)

*ahem*

jade spheres are mechanically unique (fire attunements one pulses a lot of might with a fire field, lightning one gives fury and swiftness with lightning field, water one gives condi resist and vigor, while earth one gives prot/aegis and is a safe skill)

do you not understand that, exactly same as shatters, you cannot substitute one sphere for another in this regard? so, often, its about making a decision on which one to cast, for they tap into same resource but each have a unique application and cd. exactly why is it "flavour" when compared to shatters? just because you value difference between conditions more than between boons?

59 minutes ago, soulknight.9620 said:

All of ur mentioned arguments apply to arcane blast. 

again, the difference is that jade spheres gives access to four different decisions respective to placing each different jade sphere from each attune, all without modifying, transforming, or acting upon any of your other skills, unlike how mentioned trait does. ill quote myself here:

On 10/7/2023 at 6:34 AM, peperoncino.2516 said:

once you select such trait - your previous set of decisions are traded for another one, and from that moment you cannot make decisions or act with what you had before the trait, and are only able to make decisions involving a traited version of the skills.

why are you denying that there exists such difference between jade spheres and mentioned trait? even, why are you not aknowledging a difference between spheres themselves? they just cannot be used for the same thing, even if they all give boons - but its like saying two dot skills are actually the same skill, because theres barely a difference between burning and bleeding and the application is the same.

1 hour ago, soulknight.9620 said:

If you refuse to accept these arguments - thats fine

projecting much? your argument (your only argument, really) just does not apply and i explained my train of thought as for why. how about you?

1 hour ago, soulknight.9620 said:

i dont see the need of repeating the same thing over and over again. 

i mean, you are the only one keeping yourself at it, for you gloss over practical examples, or logic, and even technical aspect of it, all to then repeat the same thing with a straight face lmao xD

maybe try actually understanding and addressing the arguments? i thought i explained all my points decently well, so what did you not understand or why do you disagree?

...or will you like an actual robot just go on to repeat the same thing again? xDD

can also agree to disagree ig, but whats the fun in that, yeah? xP

[Noodle Ant.1605]

its probably best not to get bogged down trying to compare the number of skills between each class

one the main mechanical difficulties is that fact that eles are naturally expected to juggle 4 skillbars, where no attunment skillbar by itself makes up a "complete" weapon skillbar. its not like weapon swapping on other professions where each skillbar largely functions by itself, on top of actual profession skills (f keys) that persist regardless of the weapons used. and unlike engineer kits/firebrand tomes, accessing these skillbars also comes with innate commitment costs (i.e. attunment lockout); the 20 skills would actually be easier to manage if all skills were instantly accessible at all times

~~~

one of eles main forms of defense in pve is also positioning (not standing still and tanking hits that dont need to be tanked) but i feel like the rise of pve power sword weaver has thrown that and condi sword - which honestly functions better with the kit, into the trashcan. i dont think glassy (power) eles were ever really intended to stay in 130 melee range (and they still arent), hence all the ranged core weapons (which too have been abandoned for power sword)

i get the feeling that they plan to address this with pistol, although it would be nice if they also brought the other weapons up to par

[Axelteas.7192]

Nowadays ele is just a meme relegated to mage roleplay. The amount of practise and effort you have to invest to play piano is only rewarded in Pvp and wvw roaming if you're really good.

In open world... well people open their eyes when they try another espec like reaper that can facetank everything and make great DPS by smashing 3 buttons, with a double heatlhpool and easy forgiving rotation. 

With ele you have to do double the work, worried about survavility and a clunky complicated rotation that in power builds include conjuered weapons.

 

Edited October 8, 2023 by Axelteas.7192

[AliamRationem.5172]

48 minutes ago, Noodle Ant.1605 said:

its probably best not to get bogged down trying to compare the number of skills between each class

one the main mechanical difficulties is that fact that eles are naturally expected to juggle 4 skillbars, where no attunment skillbar by itself makes up a "complete" weapon skillbar. its not like weapon swapping on other professions where each skillbar largely functions by itself, on top of actual profession skills (f keys) that persist regardless of the weapons used. and unlike engineer kits/firebrand tomes, accessing these skillbars also comes with innate commitment costs (i.e. attunment lockout); the 20 skills would actually be easier to manage if all skills were instantly accessible at all times

~~~

one of eles main forms of defense in pve is also positioning (not standing still and tanking hits that dont need to be tanked) but i feel like the rise of pve power sword weaver has thrown that and condi sword - which honestly functions better with the kit, into the trashcan. i dont think glassy (power) eles were ever really intended to stay in 130 melee range (and they still arent), hence all the ranged core weapons (which too have been abandoned for power sword)

i get the feeling that they plan to address this with pistol, although it would be nice if they also brought the other weapons up to par

This.  Even if another class had 26 weapon skills like a weaver, the fact that you can only access part of your kit at any given time due to the unique mechanics of the spec make it an apples to oranges comparison.  

I'm not complaining, mind you.  I like the idea of specs having mechanics that feel distinctive and also represent a significant tradeoff.  Weaver is probably the best example of this as you gain 6 powerful skills and a 60% reduction to attunement swap cooldown in exchange for being locked in to the attunement and unable to access all of your offhand skills on demand.  It offers a unique feel with significant drawbacks in exchange for what is gained.

[RazieL.5684]

On 10/8/2023 at 8:16 PM, AliamRationem.5172 said:

This.  Even if another class had 26 weapon skills like a weaver, the fact that you can only access part of your kit at any given time due to the unique mechanics of the spec make it an apples to oranges comparison.  

I'm not complaining, mind you.  I like the idea of specs having mechanics that feel distinctive and also represent a significant tradeoff.  Weaver is probably the best example of this as you gain 6 powerful skills and a 60% reduction to attunement swap cooldown in exchange for being locked in to the attunement and unable to access all of your offhand skills on demand.  It offers a unique feel with significant drawbacks in exchange for what is gained.

speaking of "drawbacks" weren't anet gonna be removing the drawbacks of elite specs? how about remove the lockout of all attunements on weaver and make it play like core? keep the 4 sec cd because you only get half an attunement but allow you to swap for example earth > fire instantly so you can actually use your offhand skills before dying idk... kinda makes it fair compared to removing the drawbacks of the other classes...

[Serephen.3420]

On 10/6/2023 at 2:58 PM, soulknight.9620 said:

Just saying, this take is outdated af. Just look at the current state of other classes:
Ele has 20 weapon skills +5 utilities+sphere from cata (u might argue its 4 separate skills, but reasonably its not). Thats 25-26 skills. (not counting conjures cause they are on a tight cd). 

Engie has 5 weapon skills +5 utilities+5 toolbelt skills+ 10 kit skills (which can be 5x5=25 skills, but lets be realistic and assume you use 2 kits). Thats 23 skills (with options of more kits). 

Mesmer has 10 weapon skills+4-5 shatters+5 utilities. Thats 19-20 skills.

Guardian has 10 weapon skills+3 virtues (or 15 skills if FB)+5 utilities. Thats 18-30 skills depending on elite spec. 

Necro has 10 weapon skills+5 shroud skills+5 utilities. Thats 20 skills. 

Ranger has 10 weapon skills (or 12 with untamed)+5 utilities+1-4 pet skills (depending on elite spec)+5 CA skills in druid (if druid elite equiped). Thats 16-21 skills.

Thief has 10 weapon skills (with 0 cd)+5 utilities+2 (steal+stolen skill)+5 specter form (if specter equiped). Thats 17-22 skills.

Revenant has 10 weapon skills+10(or 15 with vindi stance). I will not count in that F2 skill. So thats 20-25 skills.

Warrior has 10 weapon skills + 5 utilities +2burst skills(not counted for bladesworn)+5 (f2 mode if bladesworn equiped). Thats 17-20 skills. 

Something that many people haven't realised yet I guess, especially Anet. I feel when they make ele specs/weapons they still do so with the impression ele has so much more, but it really doesn't, at least not for quite some time now.

[Sahne.6950]

sounds like someone realized that ele is trash in PvE ^^

1 mistake your dead.

1 missplay in your rotation and your DPS plummits...

 

you have to love ele to enjoy playing it in PvE.

Edited October 11, 2023 by Sahne.6950

[Scar.1793]

18 hours ago, Sahne.6950 said:

sounds like someone realized that ele is trash in PvE ^^

1 mistake your dead.

1 missplay in your rotation and your DPS plummits...

 

you have to love ele to enjoy playing it in PvE.

In my experience as someone who freshly rolled condi weaver, elementalist has to be played with some toughness/vitality in gear. I’m sitting at 17.8k hp (full viper except my trailblazer trinkets). I can’t imagine how bad it would be without the extra toughness/hp just to bring up the class to the same level as others.

On my revenant I just go full berserker and I never had a huge issue with survivability, even in PvP.

Elementalist supposedly have the lowest HP because they had access to more skills back in the day but now it’s not really true. And there’s not even a DPS bonus as trade off, nothing, for 11k HP, the lowest armor in the game, it just doesn’t make sense when you start to play/look at other classes.

[Axelteas.7192]

9 hours ago, Scar.1793 said:

In my experience as someone who freshly rolled condi weaver, elementalist has to be played with some toughness/vitality in gear. I’m sitting at 17.8k hp (full viper except my trailblazer trinkets). I can’t imagine how bad it would be without the extra toughness/hp just to bring up the class to the same level as others.

On my revenant I just go full berserker and I never had a huge issue with survivability, even in PvP.

Elementalist supposedly have the lowest HP because they had access to more skills back in the day but now it’s not really true. And there’s not even a DPS bonus as trade off, nothing, for 11k HP, the lowest armor in the game, it just doesn’t make sense when you start to play/look at other classes.

with viper +trailblazer trinkets you barely reach 25% crit chance which is useless, better go full trailblazer or celestial.

[Panda.1967]

On 10/11/2023 at 5:18 AM, Sahne.6950 said:

sounds like someone realized that ele is trash in PvE ^^

Ele is not trash in PvE… its amazing… sure there is a learning curve to Ele… but quite honestly there is a learning curve to most classes… the easiest classes to play are Guardian, Ranger, & Necromancer… followed by Warrior, Engineer, & Mesmer… with Revenant, Thief, & Elementalist having the highest learning curves…

[aetemes.2603]

Ele's thing on game release is providing a lot of fields/blasts that can be comboed to buff/heal/status effects whatever all in one pack and in your weapons..you also could gives ele weapons to players etc. Back then you couldn't just get 25 stacks of might heals or a lot of things just like that.

The problem now with a lot of classes is that some classes can do what you do and a lot more in a much more effecient no setup/buildup needed. Then Anet decided to start taking out "too unique" qualities of classes and either reduce their impact, remove all together, or pepper them to other classes with a forced, non creative -click that button you always have-..now you are the identity of the other class except there's no "detailed convuluted mechanics to it".

So on paper sounds like balance but on execution the other class ends up trumping the original "thoughtout" concept, cause it's easier to not fail and any good buttons that made the class "afloat/unique" now makes that class/spec a lot more value.

So you end up going like the hell am I playing "the complicated version" for exactly.

That all being said Ele still has the advantage of having built in support and cc buttons without having to "pick". But again they peppered these kinda "good at everything" qualities to other classes that are easier to play...they don't want to play the "reward complex mechanics" anymore...they'd rather have talents/abilities be moba buttons that are easy to balance, and not have these "high skill, high reward,  didn't see it coming, casual player alienating" situations breaking the game.

I guess at that point you'd play the class cause you enjoy its fantasy and you are determined to make it "work". Which I must say is..not a great fantasy vibe/class feel to me.

[manu.7539]

Still my favorite class of the game despite the low hp and armor. So dynamic and versatile, most of other class feel boring to play compare to my sw/d weaver! Ele's from every spec got their good and even broken builds just like any other class but they are probably harder to create and to master because of the complexity of ele's rotations but once you find a build that fit to you and get good with it the fun begin!