Anti blobing : its time

[manu.7539]

It could be fun to get an event with anti-blob rules such as: the closer you are from your allies, the weaker you are and no boon share, no heal share, no nothing shared!

[Curennos.9307]

Aside from specter and maybe some few specific traits or skills scattered throughout different classes and specs, the game mechanics are entirely built around blobbing. It isn't that there's a choice being made to blob or not blob - insofar as I know it's that blobbing is the only way anything actually works in a wvw scenario. Implementing broad anti-blobbing measures without addressing the core game mechanics that enable (and effectively force) that kind of gameplay would be...bad. So, no innate 'punishing' people just for standing near allies. At this point, I don't think anet has enough resources (or dare I say, gonads) to go for the full review needed to really change that.

Still, some QoL stuff would be nice. Packing together should be a choice with upsides (boons, heals, etc) and downsides (to be decided?). My top two picks would be:

1) AoE caps and things solo people (or lesser number coordinated ppl) can use against larger groups. Be that Vicious Death-esque (from ESO) mechanics, changing the AoE caps to just be flatly higher or implementing some sort of scaling factor - 100% damage first 5 targets, 75% next 5 targets, etcetc. A relic would be interesting - increase AoE damage by x%, reduce single target damage? Food that applies a small bonus, but per target struck - so normal food is what, 100 power plus a secondary. Make a food buff that gives X power where X is weaker single target than normal food, but scales up per target hit.

1a) Someone mentioned making a siege that deals increased damage the more targets it hits. Whoever said that sounds p wise.

2) Rework how reflects function. The risk-reward of a skill, which anet should be very concerned about maintaining, is ridiculously out of whack for basically all reflects/projectile blocks - a single skill negates all projectiles for the duration, which is bonkers. Effectively complete projectile immunity probably shouldn't exist, and varying levels of protection against projectiles should be something to actually consider when building a composition - not something you just end up having because a few supports can pump it out with ease.

With an honorable mention for:

3) Rezzes from rez skills should be changed similar to how rez traits currently function - revive percentage pulses, not instant-up.

4) Equalize downstate. It should be weaker, rubbing rezzing should be harder without healing power but easier with healing power, no wild disparities between downstate power between classes. Going from downed to fully dead should be significantly easier.

5) There's a huge amount of stability flying around in coordinated groups. Part of that is an issue with the amount of CC and the lack of CC-immunity after stunbreaking, buuuut I think that would require a lot of work for anet to fix, so...Maybe trim stability a little bit? Or, alternatively, give more classes traits like rev has - 'while x, attacks remove a stack of stability' or something.

6) Boons too easy to upkeep. Nerf concentration.

7) Harder, but take a look at AoE caps more thoroughly, including healing/boon aoes. Maybe 10man caps or even larger for damage and healing/boons is the way to go, idk. The game is more than a decade old, just give us a weekend event to test out 10, 20, 30 man caps and whatnot.

[Illustratr.9054]

Why do they same people chime into every single topic as if what they say matters more. It's boring.

 

[XenesisII.1540]

25 minutes ago, Illustratr.9054 said:

Why do they same people chime into every single topic as if what they say matters more. It's boring.

Because it's the wvw forums, ain't much peeps left in here. 🤷‍♂️

[joneirikb.7506]

@Curennos.9307
Over all liked your post. Just have this nerdy urge to correct and explain a small detail. Oh yeah, and wall-of-text/rant warning:

The game mechanics is built around 5vs5, the game was never designed to deal with higher numbers than that, 'and very evidentially so'.

And to off on a slight tangent: The game was designed around 5 players working together, and have a lot of systems that reinforce/help/reward that. Everything from target caps, the way most heal/boon/buff skills work, the way CC works (to let you put pressure off a team mate), to my favourite subject the Combo system. And I'll give full credit for ANet (original crew) for getting the cooperative aspect of the game right.

Essentially all these systems are multiplying effects, so 1+1 is not 2, but 3. The total becomes better than the parts. That's the basis of a good Cooperative system (in my books at least).

But as this game isn't capped at 5 players, it snowballs. And we get into all the issues (that you pointed out). Basically, WvW and OW-PvE are the wild-west where the developers had no idea at all how things would turn out. And basically have no safety guards or system in place to control, because the main limiter of the system was the "5vs5". And thus the multiplying/snowball effect naturally grows to unreasonable levels, 50vs50 is basically impossible to balance in this game designed entirely around 5vs5 from its roots up.

----

Notes:

They've tried to change this, ever since 2014 they've tried to make the game PVE focused, which is a rather odd direction to go with a combat system designed around 5vs5 pvp in mind. But the Cooperative aspects of the combat system lent itself well enough to it that it worked somewhat. The Action-Combat separated it enough from most other "pve-centric" games at the time as to remain novel. And as always, PvE players wants things simpler, so we see which direction the game is going.

There are definitively other things that have changed over they years as well, the game has certainly become more spammy with more skills at shorter cool-downs and more uptime, either through longer durations or just shorter CD's. And in terms of fighting it's more about wearing through a builds defences rather than baiting out defences and punish while on CD's. 

----

Now how to create drawbacks for going 6+ is a very difficult topic, especially since any change to this would touch two very awkward problems:

* The 'Care-Bear-Rule' of ANet (That you should always be happy to see another player (on your team)).
* That players will ALWAYS resent anything that is perceived as being taken taken away from them, lost, or punished for. No matter if it's better for the game itself, or even the player in question in the long run.

So, what ANet can/will actually be willing to even consider is very limited. And as much as it saddens me, zerg-devouring-arrow-carts or diminishing-returns to rewards based on numbers, are completely off the table. Unfortunately, I don't really have any good ideas for how to accomplish this, without breaking one of those two big taboos. 

----

A note on this: Reflect is one of the few mechanics that doesn't scale but works a specific way. As such, it's the kind of mechanic that works just as well against an entire zerg as a small pack of roamers. That it works at any/all levels of engagement is the kind of ability that actually works against zergs. Line's used to work this way, but got changed to fit into the larger AOE system with only 5 targets, and that Stability worked against it. If players demand, and ANet changes Reflect to instead say 50% damage to all projectile that goes through it, then we'd lose another mechanic that actually works against higher numbers, and will again empower zergs that are able to just now spam rapid fires through anything you can setup against it.

I'd honestly rather see them restore the old "Line" system. Though I know this will be an unpopular opinion. Old Wall of Fear and Line of Warding was very good at actually dividing and limiting large groups.

[Curennos.9307]

1 hour ago, joneirikb.7506 said:

@Curennos.9307
Over all liked your post. Just have this nerdy urge to correct and explain a small detail. Oh yeah, and wall-of-text/rant warning:

 

Fair on the 5v5 bit.

Re: Reflect. Groups/zergs are about what kind of build you can run that either multiplies the power of allies the most or is multiplied by said allies the most. We currently don't see, say, rifle DE or longbow rangers purposefully stacked up in blobs because they lack...Well, everything. Why have a ranger pewpew a single target (even if they could, which they currently can't - with one not-really-an-exception) when you can have XYZ other build that hits multiple targets.

Even if reflect is changed to, using your example, 50% damage reduction against projectiles, why have a ranger pewpew a single target for 50% reduced damage (who may very well be a reasonably durable solo player if you're vs a cloud, or have protection, etcetc) when you can have XYZ other build that does loads more AoE damage?

The exception to this I mentioned above is that ranger actually has a utility skillt hat gives them 10 unblockable attacks- exactly the number of pewpews in a rapid fire, but nobody uses it anyway.

I think earlier in your post is a great example - players won't like anything if it's seen as taking things away from them (or in this case, granting something to the enemy because you having the option to do something means your enemy can do it too) even if it's healthy for the game. Personally, if changes are made to reflect that (IMO) fix the disproportionate reward of using reflects and enable more ranged builds as options - both from the blob and from players fighting against the blob...Well, I daresay that'd be fair, wouldn't it? If the blob wants to make the decision to run more ranged builds despite the state of reflect (whatever it may be at the time, but in this example I'll assume reflect is changed in such a way that ranged builds an now do damage, albeit to some reduction from reflect-buff uptime) then I say more power to 'em.

I want a tool that currently has no place in organized play even with utility skills that allow it to bypass defenses (unblockable signet on ranger) to have more of a place, and I can't/won't complain if it turns out my enemies get to use it too. I think the only question would be, would it be overpowered? 

Hard to say. Maybe at first as people adjust, but I think it would add valuable additional options in group composition and let builds previously unseen in those scenarios have a place - like soulbeast! Soulbeast has really cool stance share and I think longbow SLB sharing OWP to 3 eles simultaneously would be super cool. SLB stance share is actually super cool, but you don't see it in groups because...Well. Reflects. And other soulbeast related reasons, ofc. Other than barrage or a melee weapon, they'd do no damage.

And def +1 on the cooldowns/uptime thing. A lot could stand to be tuned to have longer CDs so there are actual periods of vulnerability. I tried out support FB recently (I am not a pro FB and I am aware strips exist, but still) and there's so much stab uptime it just...never runs out naturally. Ever.

 

[kash.9213]

14 hours ago, Curennos.9307 said:

Aside from specter and maybe some few specific traits or skills scattered throughout different classes and specs, the game mechanics are entirely built around blobbing. It isn't that there's a choice being made to blob or not blob - insofar as I know it's that blobbing is the only way anything actually works in a wvw scenario. Implementing broad anti-blobbing measures without addressing the core game mechanics that enable (and effectively force) that kind of gameplay would be...bad. So, no innate 'punishing' people just for standing near allies. At this point, I don't think anet has enough resources (or dare I say, gonads) to go for the full review needed to really change that.

Still, some QoL stuff would be nice. Packing together should be a choice with upsides (boons, heals, etc) and downsides (to be decided?). My top two picks would be:

1) AoE caps and things solo people (or lesser number coordinated ppl) can use against larger groups. Be that Vicious Death-esque (from ESO) mechanics, changing the AoE caps to just be flatly higher or implementing some sort of scaling factor - 100% damage first 5 targets, 75% next 5 targets, etcetc. A relic would be interesting - increase AoE damage by x%, reduce single target damage? Food that applies a small bonus, but per target struck - so normal food is what, 100 power plus a secondary. Make a food buff that gives X power where X is weaker single target than normal food, but scales up per target hit.

1a) Someone mentioned making a siege that deals increased damage the more targets it hits. Whoever said that sounds p wise.

2) Rework how reflects function. The risk-reward of a skill, which anet should be very concerned about maintaining, is ridiculously out of whack for basically all reflects/projectile blocks - a single skill negates all projectiles for the duration, which is bonkers. Effectively complete projectile immunity probably shouldn't exist, and varying levels of protection against projectiles should be something to actually consider when building a composition - not something you just end up having because a few supports can pump it out with ease.

With an honorable mention for:

3) Rezzes from rez skills should be changed similar to how rez traits currently function - revive percentage pulses, not instant-up.

4) Equalize downstate. It should be weaker, rubbing rezzing should be harder without healing power but easier with healing power, no wild disparities between downstate power between classes. Going from downed to fully dead should be significantly easier.

5) There's a huge amount of stability flying around in coordinated groups. Part of that is an issue with the amount of CC and the lack of CC-immunity after stunbreaking, buuuut I think that would require a lot of work for anet to fix, so...Maybe trim stability a little bit? Or, alternatively, give more classes traits like rev has - 'while x, attacks remove a stack of stability' or something.

6) Boons too easy to upkeep. Nerf concentration.

7) Harder, but take a look at AoE caps more thoroughly, including healing/boon aoes. Maybe 10man caps or even larger for damage and healing/boons is the way to go, idk. The game is more than a decade old, just give us a weekend event to test out 10, 20, 30 man caps and whatnot.

I don't think it would be game breaking to cut down on boon uptime to make team plays more deliberate and still have some kind of clutch team setup with tools like a Relic that you're describing with incremental damage based on numbers in proximity. Of course, the blob can use the same device, but it would on paper anyway still be scaled appropriately for both sides even if it's like a 5 vs blob. My Dancing Dagger skill has always been better used against a larger group giving more bounces and bounce spread possible but then it's kind of a throwaway skill on one target most of the time. 

I don't think it will hurt the blob too much if they have to build and plan for a smaller and more deliberate window of boon coverage instead of it being a sustained state. They would adjust and build or comp to be more elastic and they can train to run a split to negate any incremental damage modifiers while taking advantage of those same modifiers for a deliberate play until their blob converges again. 

[joneirikb.7506]

2 hours ago, Curennos.9307 said:

Fair on the 5v5 bit.

Re: Reflect. Groups/zergs are about what kind of build you can run that either multiplies the power of allies the most or is multiplied by said allies the most. We currently don't see, say, rifle DE or longbow rangers purposefully stacked up in blobs because they lack...Well, everything. Why have a ranger pewpew a single target (even if they could, which they currently can't - with one not-really-an-exception) when you can have XYZ other build that hits multiple targets.

Even if reflect is changed to, using your example, 50% damage reduction against projectiles, why have a ranger pewpew a single target for 50% reduced damage (who may very well be a reasonably durable solo player if you're vs a cloud, or have protection, etcetc) when you can have XYZ other build that does loads more AoE damage?

The exception to this I mentioned above is that ranger actually has a utility skillt hat gives them 10 unblockable attacks- exactly the number of pewpews in a rapid fire, but nobody uses it anyway.

I think earlier in your post is a great example - players won't like anything if it's seen as taking things away from them (or in this case, granting something to the enemy because you having the option to do something means your enemy can do it too) even if it's healthy for the game. Personally, if changes are made to reflect that (IMO) fix the disproportionate reward of using reflects and enable more ranged builds as options - both from the blob and from players fighting against the blob...Well, I daresay that'd be fair, wouldn't it? If the blob wants to make the decision to run more ranged builds despite the state of reflect (whatever it may be at the time, but in this example I'll assume reflect is changed in such a way that ranged builds an now do damage, albeit to some reduction from reflect-buff uptime) then I say more power to 'em.

I want a tool that currently has no place in organized play even with utility skills that allow it to bypass defenses (unblockable signet on ranger) to have more of a place, and I can't/won't complain if it turns out my enemies get to use it too. I think the only question would be, would it be overpowered? 

Hard to say. Maybe at first as people adjust, but I think it would add valuable additional options in group composition and let builds previously unseen in those scenarios have a place - like soulbeast! Soulbeast has really cool stance share and I think longbow SLB sharing OWP to 3 eles simultaneously would be super cool. SLB stance share is actually super cool, but you don't see it in groups because...Well. Reflects. And other soulbeast related reasons, ofc. Other than barrage or a melee weapon, they'd do no damage.

And def +1 on the cooldowns/uptime thing. A lot could stand to be tuned to have longer CDs so there are actual periods of vulnerability. I tried out support FB recently (I am not a pro FB and I am aware strips exist, but still) and there's so much stab uptime it just...never runs out naturally. Ever.

 

Regarding Reflects, I'm more interested in the system of reflects than the actual balance of it. If it's too strong or weak isn't relevant to my argument about it, it's the way it works separate from scaling or target caps. Essentially the way Reflects and the old Lines worked was tools that worked equally well against enemies no matter their numbers.

Compared to the current Lines, Line of Warding can be ignored by Stability/Invulnerable, and only affect 10 targets, then it's just visual clutter after that. From a balance perspective it's lost all of its bite, from a systematic perspective it no longer servers a role and gets worse the more enemies you fight against. Thus, the new Lines system is beneficial for zergs, which makes me wonder why it was changed in the first place.

Where the old Line system required the zerg to manoeuvre around it, which is exactly the kind of mechanics we'd want in order to be able to deal with larger groups. Reflect, is one of the last (if not the last) remaining system that resists the target caps. As such, it actually does something against a zerg. I'd want more systems like that, not less.

Or heck, add (more) damage to all combo's, and remove target cap from all combo damage. Make Combo's great again! It's a system the original ANet devs added in to reward cooperative gameplay, that rewards players for organising and reacting to situations in the game, while punishing button mashing. So it will generally work less for a mob of pugs, and work better for a tight knit group of 5 roamers, and naturally go over the top with an organised zerg busting guild but heck everything does.

Edited October 10, 2023 by joneirikb.7506
Double checked wiki for Line of Warding numbers

[TheGrimm.5624]

23 hours ago, manu.7539 said:

It could be fun to get an event with anti-blob rules such as: the closer you are from your allies, the weaker you are and no boon share, no heal share, no nothing shared!

You can always propose a week of https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mistlock_Instability:_Social_Awkwardness as others have. 🙂 But they would have to announce that well in advance to prevent the sudden WTWs that would come of it.

Edited October 10, 2023 by TheGrimm.5624

[Justine.6351]

Ain't no zerglings going to be running glass anymore that would be for sure 😂

[MedievalThings.5417]

On 10/8/2023 at 1:22 PM, Edu.6984 said:

Reflects and projectile block need to be toned down. 1 single wall of reflection or ventari bubble can conter an infinite amount of projectiles. IMO those skills should have a cap, block X amount of projectiles and disappear. That would make non ground target ranged skills more reliable. That would remove one of the benefits of stacking.

This is true.  Which is why you will never see it.  Anet wants comped blobs fighting pugs and doors.  And they do not want anyone slowing that down.

[Curennos.9307]

18 hours ago, joneirikb.7506 said:

Regarding Reflects, I'm more interested in the system of reflects than the actual balance of it. If it's too strong or weak isn't relevant to my argument about it, it's the way it works separate from scaling or target caps. Essentially the way Reflects and the old Lines worked was tools that worked equally well against enemies no matter their numbers.

Compared to the current Lines, Line of Warding can be ignored by Stability/Invulnerable, and only affect 10 targets, then it's just visual clutter after that. From a balance perspective it's lost all of its bite, from a systematic perspective it no longer servers a role and gets worse the more enemies you fight against. Thus, the new Lines system is beneficial for zergs, which makes me wonder why it was changed in the first place.

Where the old Line system required the zerg to manoeuvre around it, which is exactly the kind of mechanics we'd want in order to be able to deal with larger groups. Reflect, is one of the last (if not the last) remaining system that resists the target caps. As such, it actually does something against a zerg. I'd want more systems like that, not less.

Or heck, add (more) damage to all combo's, and remove target cap from all combo damage. Make Combo's great again! It's a system the original ANet devs added in to reward cooperative gameplay, that rewards players for organising and reacting to situations in the game, while punishing button mashing. So it will generally work less for a mob of pugs, and work better for a tight knit group of 5 roamers, and naturally go over the top with an organised zerg busting guild but heck everything does.

The problem is that it is too strong though exactly because of how it works. Trying to discuss it separately doesn't really work for exactly that reason - it's a hard counter to a relatively common damage type and it has no scaling/cap. Mind, there are three types- the tempest aura kind where it's a specific buff applied to a person that reflects projectiles, and auras have a target cap (used to be 10, I think, and is now 5?), the static 'bubble' (or line, or whatever shape it takes) and the mobile bubble/line that requires upkeep. Some mobile projectile blocks don't require upkeep/continued casting (rev hammer 4) while some do (guardian shield 5).

It's things like static, ground-placed projectile blocks that I'm fine with retaining most of their strength depending on size, cooldown, etc, same with the ground placed CC's such as line of warding, since you can 'just' go around them. And insofar as I've been able to find (from running up to a bunch of zergs and poking them with a stick) I really only die in melee range. There are ranged pokes, but I don't think I've ever died at a distance from a zerg - it's always getting pulled or I make a mistake and they catch up. There hasn't been a single time when clouding vs a zerg where I thought 'huh, coulda used a reflect there'. Genuinely, maybe I haven't been poking the right zergs, but that's been my experience so far.

I'm sure there are multiple ways reflects could be adjusted - I'm just interested in changing them so they don't effectively nullify an entire damage type for a comparatively low cost. The investment/reward for reflects is currently wildly disproportionate in favor of the reward. It also favors the zerg, in my experience so far.

As for combos - hell yeah. There's quite a few that just seem useless, and buffing them to make it worthwhile would be excellent. The one that fires out projectiles is something I've never really been keen on...I think I had someone shoot through one of my water fields and pop up a bunch of regen regen regen and just...??? Didn't really care lol, I already puke out regen on that support build.

Same for ground/line based CC. I think it'd be healthier and more interesting to make them have no target cap, no arguments there.

[Zyreva.1078]

23 hours ago, Curennos.9307 said:

Soulbeast has really cool stance share and I think longbow SLB sharing OWP to 3 eles simultaneously would be super cool.

And even without reflects almost as useless as it is now. Vs a zerg anyway. For reasons you have mentioned yourself.

Ranger's lb - just like most projectile weapons - isn't designed as aoe weapon and shines more vs singular targets, regardless of reflects. This is true even for piercing projectiles that can hit multiple targets - skills that hit an area instead of a line are simply more effective and easier to use against grps of people. OWP is also not great vs multiple targets, because of it's icd that prevents it from triggering vs multiple targets at once. Signet of the Hunt, Sic'em - all inefficient vs multiple targets.

In oder to make currently unused projectile weapons more useful in zerg fights they'd have to redesign the weapons. Nerfing projectile denial alone wouldn't change that much for large scale fights, but potentially hurt small scale where projectiles can already be quite strong - especially when they get changed in a way that favours superior numbers, such as capping the amount of projectiles that can be blocked instead of capping the amount of targets that can be protected by a single reflect skill - the latter being the main issue with reflects in zerg fights.

Ranger has some weapons that could be decent in zerg play and all of the elite specs can bring decent utility too. But both slb and untamed are fairly reliant on cc to set up the melee burst and with the nerfs to boon strip and increasing access to stab it probably became less and less effective. Untamed also suffers from dead pets, despite being advertised as "zerg spec with good aoe" initially.

[MaLong.2079]

On 10/8/2023 at 3:22 PM, Edu.6984 said:

Reflects and projectile block need to be toned down. 1 single wall of reflection or ventari bubble can conter an infinite amount of projectiles. IMO those skills should have a cap, block X amount of projectiles and disappear. That would make non ground target ranged skills more reliable. That would remove one of the benefits of stacking.

This is a big problem right now.