Do raids need easy/normal/hard difficulty mode? [merged]

[maddoctor.2738]

@"Ohoni.6057" said:Of course not, it's a position that can neither be reasonably proven nor disproved, which is why I referenced it as "a belief" instead of as a "fact."

So it's a belief versus -at least some- data. Good to know.

[Ohoni.6057]

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@"Ohoni.6057" said:Of course not, it's a position that can neither be reasonably proven nor disproved, which is why I referenced it as "a belief" instead of as a "fact."

So it's a belief versus -at least some- data. Good to know.

It's trash data, it's data used to cloud rather than to enlighten. Poor data is worth less than no data at all.

[Brynioch.1873]

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Miellyn.6847 said:What you see maybe. But as they already said dungeons got abbadoned because they are a mess from the programming side the differences inside the game are much larger and this is what actually matters and you know nothing about this.

So you'd think that they wouldn't make the same mistakes again with raids, and resolve those scalability issues, right?

You don't design around features you don't plan to add. Multiple difficulties where never planned so you don't design around supporting it. Wasted time.

As we don't know any other team size and the last two raid wings took 8 and 10 months there is no indication it is an easy task. So same for you as Ohoni: You know nothing about internal processes, code base, technical limitations. Stop the assumption.

You're also making assumptions though, that it couldn't possibly be done in a reasonable amount of time and effort. Both are assumptions. I'll continue to stick with mine until we get some more detailed feedback, feel free to stick with yours.

No. It is the statement from ArenaNet. Needed ressources are large, things would need to get shifted around, content gets delayed. You are the only one here navigating 100% on believes and assumptions.

Yes it it. Because Gen 1 can be bought from the TP. If it's about item qualilty: You are in luck, already present in WvW and sPvP (unlike weapons which can only be bought with gold, if you want to progress on your own you need to play open world if you want it or not). Is it about the skin? How do I get Gen 2 legendaries without open world? Ah the same way you get the envoy armor without raids, question answered.

But ideally, both situations would be fixed.

But there isn't anything that needs fixing. You can get the quality in various ways but the corresponding skins only in one. GW1 worked the same way and nobody was complaining about it. Maybe you should ask yourself the question if you are the one who is wrong and not in possession of the ultimate truth.

@"yann.1946" said:I know what you're getting at nut you really should stop the generalisation. Their where quite a lot positive reactions to the Books in istan while nobody experienced the story.

That's an entirely separate situation. If there was a "books of Istan" story

mission

available, but only a fraction of the players could meaningfully participate, but the devs put out the books as an

alternative

experience, you can kittened-well bet that players would not be satisfied by that. Remember the backlash that the Season 1 "cutscene-machine" received? If the written story is all that exists, all that

anyone

is allowed to play, then sure, that's interesting and people will enjoy it. But if the written down version is only a "second place" option for those that can't engage actual playable content that

also

exists? I'm sorry, but no one is satisfied by that. It's like a placebo with "placebo" written on it, and instructions that read "'Placebo' means it's not a real drug and its effects are entirely in your head, enjoy!"

But it isn't. The raid story takes only place through such paper pieces. It is more like a book that is missing the illustrations. Still full enjoyable. The bosses add to the picture of the story, not the story itself.

[Ohoni.6057]

@"Miellyn.6847" said:You don't design around features you don't plan to add. Multiple difficulties where never planned so you don't design around supporting it. Wasted time.

That would be foolish, it's how you get caught in situations where you need an easy mode, but find that it's harder to implement than pulling a few levers. That's just shortsighted design, and should never be confused for a valid excuse.

No. It is the statement from ArenaNet. Needed ressources are large, things would need to get shifted around, content gets delayed. You are the only one here navigating 100% on believes and assumptions.

It still lacks any sort of specificity. We still have no idea what "easy mode" concept they were talking about, no idea what would get "shifted around," and no idea by how much. You assume it would all add up to "too much," I assume that it wouldn't.

But there isn't anything that needs fixing. You can get the quality in various ways but the corresponding skins only in one.

Your two sentences are mutually exclusive.

GW1 worked the same way and nobody was complaining about it. Maybe you should ask yourself the question if you are the one who is wrong and not in possession of the ultimate truth.

I never played GW1, I started with GW2. If I'd played GW1, you'd probably recognize me from the many threads I'd have started.

But it isn't. The raid story takes only place through such paper pieces. It is more like a book that is missing the illustrations. Still full enjoyable. The bosses add to the picture of the story, not the story itself.

/sigh, can we just agree that you're never going to be right on this one and move on? The raid story matters, participating in it matters, it will always matter no matter how much time you spend trying to explain that it shouldn't matter. It will regardless.

[Feanor.2358]

@Ohoni.6057 said:/sigh, can we just agree that you're never going to be right on this one and move on? The raid story matters, participating in it matters, it will always matter not matter how much time you spend trying to explain that it shouldn't matter. It will regardless.

The exact same thing can be said about the difficulty. It matters, it will always matter regardless how much time you spend trying to explain that it shouldn't matter. Kinda curious that the things you find to matter are those, and only those, which somehow support your demands for free shinies.

[Ohoni.6057]

@"Feanor.2358" said:The exact same thing can be said about the difficulty.

Not really. That's a very separate thing, because while I 100% agree with you that having the high level of difficulty matters to those who enjoy it, and should remain available to those players, having an easier difficulty level matters just as much to everyone else.

What I'm offering in terms of difficulty is that both groups get the options they want. What you're offering on story is "only my people will get it, and you'll just have to make do."

It's not remotely equivalent.

[Brynioch.1873]

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@"Miellyn.6847" said:You don't design around features you don't plan to add. Multiple difficulties where never planned so you don't design around supporting it. Wasted time.

That would be foolish, it's how you get caught in situations where you need an easy mode, but find that it's harder to implement than pulling a few levers. That's just shortsighted design, and should never be confused for a valid excuse.

So it's also foolish they never implemented a hardmode open world or hardmode personal story as they never designed around it and the time investment would not be worth it?If you would design around all possible outcomes we wouldn't be playing the game today...

No. It is the statement from ArenaNet. Needed ressources are large, things would need to get shifted around, content gets delayed. You are the only one here navigating 100% on believes and assumptions.

It still lacks any sort of specificity. We still have no idea what "easy mode" concept they were talking about, no idea what would get "shifted around," and no idea by how much. You assume it would all add up to "too much," I assume that it wouldn't.

No it doesn't. Nobody here knows interna about the game. So any describtion would just upset someone without understanding the reasons as you don't know why things were designed a certain way 5 years ago that block you now.

But there isn't anything that needs fixing. You can get the quality in various ways but the corresponding skins only in one.

Your two sentences are mutually exclusive.

No they aren't. Only if you try to force your own vision of the game onto others.

GW1 worked the same way and nobody was complaining about it. Maybe you should ask yourself the question if you are the one who is wrong and not in possession of the ultimate truth.

I never played GW1, I started with GW2. If I'd played GW1, you'd probably recognize me from the many threads I'd have started.

Doubtful. There weren't official forums around for GW1.

But it isn't. The raid story takes only place through such paper pieces. It is more like a book that is missing the illustrations. Still full enjoyable. The bosses add to the picture of the story, not the story itself.

/sigh, can we just agree that you're never going to be right on this one and move on? The raid story matters, participating in it matters, it will always matter not matter how much time you spend trying to explain that it shouldn't matter. It will regardless.

It matters to YOU. But you are not the playerbase. You are a single player like me and you only speak for yourself as I speak for myself.

[Ohoni.6057]

@Miellyn.6847 said:So it's also foolish they never implemented a hardmode open world or hardmode personal story as they never designed around it and the time investment would not be worth it?

Easy mode raids are a no-brainer contingency. They didn't have to have them fully designed before launching the raids, but they have no excuse for not building the hooks into the code to allow them to be added at a later date without too much backtracking.

Doubtful. There weren't official forums around for GW1.

Then I guess you'd recognize me from all the tin-can-and-string conversations about how they needed to make [single sourced cool thing], available in [more locations].

It matters to YOU. But you are not the playerbase. You are a single player like me and you only speak for yourself as I speak for myself.

Ok. Yeah, I'm the only one this matters to. I give you permission to believe that. I also have a side business in used municipal bridges, if you're interested, very reasonable pricing, practically a steal.

[Feanor.2358]

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@"Feanor.2358" said:The exact same thing can be said about the difficulty.

Not really. That's a very separate thing, because while I

100% agree with you

that having the high level of difficulty matters to those who enjoy it,

and should remain available to those players,

having an easier difficulty level matters just as much to everyone else.

You're misinterpreting or misunderstanding me. The difficulty is part of the story. It creates tension, and a sense of danger. Without it, the bosses are just some deranged persons and overgrown critters. "Here, bash this oversized puppy. Feel better?"

[Brynioch.1873]

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Miellyn.6847 said:So it's also foolish they never implemented a hardmode open world or hardmode personal story as they never designed around it and the time investment would not be worth it?

Easy mode raids are a no-brainer contingency. They didn't have to have them

fully designed

before launching the raids, but they have no excuse for not building the hooks into the code to allow them to be added at a later date without too much backtracking.

No it isn't a no-brainer. The game is still not instanced focused but open world. The plan was to create content for a defined audience. Not to add more of the same already present with fractals. Maybe they had a specific gameplay experience in mind that just doesn't translate into an easy mode? Something like danger?

It matters to YOU. But you are not the playerbase. You are a single player like me and you only speak for yourself as I speak for myself.

Ok. Yeah, I'm the

only

one this matters to. I give you permission to believe that. I also have a side business in used municipal bridges, if you're interested,

very

reasonable pricing, practically a steal.

Can you stop the hyperbole? I never said that. But you can't argue for someone you never met or never spoke to just because you think he will enjoy it. But it doesn't sound as good and important as arguing in the name of a nebulous majority right?

[yann.1946]

@"yann.1946" said:I know what you're getting at nut you really should stop the generalisation. Their where quite a lot positive reactions to the Books in istan while nobody experienced the story.

That's an entirely separate situation. If there was a "books of Istan" story

mission

available, but only a fraction of the players could meaningfully participate, but the devs put out the books as an

alternative

experience, you can kittened-well bet that players would not be satisfied by that. Remember the backlash that the Season 1 "cutscene-machine" received? If the written story is all that exists, all that

anyone

is allowed to play, then sure, that's interesting and people will enjoy it. But if the written down version is only a "second place" option for those that can't engage actual playable content that

also

exists? I'm sorry, but no one is satisfied by that. It's like a placebo with "placebo" written on it, and instructions that read "'Placebo' means it's not a real drug and its effects are entirely in your head, enjoy!"

This was not the point of my post at all. The problem here is people wanting tot enjoy the story while not knowing that the experience Will be mostly the same as they have already.

I am of the opinion that story is the best motivation for multiple dificulties. Nut at present the experience in easy mode W1-3 Will mostly the same.

It doesn't help you're cause to just dismiss other people you know.

[maddoctor.2738]

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:Of course not, it's a position that can neither be reasonably proven nor disproved, which is why I referenced it as "a belief" instead of as a "fact."

So it's a belief versus -at least some- data. Good to know.

It's trash data, it's data used to cloud rather than to enlighten. Poor data is worth less than no data at all.

I disagree. It's very valid and useful data that shows certain things, you might call them all you want, but that doesn't change the fact that they are an important statistic. Having some data to suggest something is worth more than having no data at all. And besides it's up to you to PROVIDE evidence that a change is needed for the game. That's how people push for a change, personal belief isn't enough.

[Bladestrom.6425]

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:Of course not, it's a position that can neither be reasonably proven nor disproved, which is why I referenced it as "a belief" instead of as a "fact."

So it's a belief versus -at least some- data. Good to know.

It's trash data, it's data used to cloud rather than to enlighten. Poor data is worth less than no data at all.

I disagree. It's very valid and useful data that shows certain things, you might call them all you want, but that doesn't change the fact that they are an important statistic. Having some data to suggest something is worth more than having no data at all. And besides it's up to you to PROVIDE evidence that a change is needed for the game. That's how people push for a change, personal belief isn't enough.

the majority dont raid in GW2, the majority (e.g millions of players) do raid in other games such as eso ,wow etc because have different skill level's and far far less drama (well ESO, wow is a cesspit because of the gear race) The 'evidence' is in plain sight. The majority of players in GW2 don't have access to 10 man casual instances that other AAA mmorpgs and GW1 provide. So basically if you are a casual PVE player you have no end game appart form 5 man instances. Poor right.

[Sephylon.4938]

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:Of course not, it's a position that can neither be reasonably proven nor disproved, which is why I referenced it as "a belief" instead of as a "fact."

So it's a belief versus -at least some- data. Good to know.

It's trash data, it's data used to cloud rather than to enlighten. Poor data is worth less than no data at all.

I disagree. It's very valid and useful data that shows certain things, you might call them all you want, but that doesn't change the fact that they are an important statistic. Having some data to suggest something is worth more than having no data at all. And besides it's up to you to PROVIDE evidence that a change is needed for the game. That's how people push for a change, personal belief isn't enough.

the majority dont raid in GW2, the majority (e.g millions of players) do raid in other games such as eso ,wow etc because have different skill level's and far far less drama

And it's not because raiding is where you get the new, better gear in the gear treadmill?

[Brynioch.1873]

@Sephylon.4938 said:

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:Of course not, it's a position that can neither be reasonably proven nor disproved, which is why I referenced it as "a belief" instead of as a "fact."

So it's a belief versus -at least some- data. Good to know.

It's trash data, it's data used to cloud rather than to enlighten. Poor data is worth less than no data at all.

I disagree. It's very valid and useful data that shows certain things, you might call them all you want, but that doesn't change the fact that they are an important statistic. Having some data to suggest something is worth more than having no data at all. And besides it's up to you to PROVIDE evidence that a change is needed for the game. That's how people push for a change, personal belief isn't enough.

the majority dont raid in GW2, the majority (e.g millions of players) do raid in other games such as eso ,wow etc because have different skill level's and far far less drama

And it's not because raiding is where you get the new, better gear in the gear treadmill?

And mainstory + matchmaking for effortless groupbuilding.

There was a huge shitstorm for not adding some instances for the LFD in Legion. Those players really love their auto grouping tools.

[Lucinellia.9247]

@"nia.4725" said:

I've had some problems with this, too. At first, because I had to always play druid. It's my main and I love it, but it isn't fun having to play always the same profession. Then it happened with my handkiter rev. I hate having to play something in particular because no one else can. However, I don't think an easy mode so dumbed down that those roles aren't necessary anymore isn't the solution. It would solve your problem with not being able to play thief (although, honestly, thief is viable in the current raids), but it wouldn't solve my problem. I mean, it would not solve every diversity problem. You will also need boons, you will always need a handkiter, you will always need a tank.

So, I agree - somewhat! The reason you always need to play the same profession is because Druid is that strong - it is a balancing issue and one that Anet has had three years to fix (along with Chronomancer being 20% of a necessary raid composition and the necessity of Warriors because they too bring overpowered passive buffs). It is clear that this is a real challenge for Anet to resolve as even after this period of time and the introduction of a raft of new Elite professions (that could have brought non-stacking Banner- or Spirit-like buffs or offered an alacrity plus quickness combo) there hasn't been much advance aside from making balance decisions regarding Grace of the Land that should have been resolved in HoT beta and entrenching Warrior and Druid by creating unique 10 man buffs.

So without the option of balance that is anywhere close to equitable (and I guess Thief is on the absolute cusp of viable), an easier mode which wouldn't require wonderful boon uptimes or banners and could allow for off-meta comps for people to mess around with on a Friday night following clearing on a Monday would be quite nice - especially if it meant being able to involve less experienced family and friends. Sure, you'd still need a handkiter but perhaps with the reduced damage and mechanics of an "easy" mode that could be pretty much anyone rather than that Herald I get to pull out for Deimos and River of Souls before she gathers dust.

Of course, I wouldn't encourage an easy mode without, at the minimum, repeatable CMs.

[Bladestrom.6425]

@Sephylon.4938 said:

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:Of course not, it's a position that can neither be reasonably proven nor disproved, which is why I referenced it as "a belief" instead of as a "fact."

So it's a belief versus -at least some- data. Good to know.

It's trash data, it's data used to cloud rather than to enlighten. Poor data is worth less than no data at all.

I disagree. It's very valid and useful data that shows certain things, you might call them all you want, but that doesn't change the fact that they are an important statistic. Having some data to suggest something is worth more than having no data at all. And besides it's up to you to PROVIDE evidence that a change is needed for the game. That's how people push for a change, personal belief isn't enough.

the majority dont raid in GW2, the majority (e.g millions of players) do raid in other games such as eso ,wow etc because have different skill level's and far far less drama

And it's not because raiding is where you get the new, better gear in the gear treadmill?

there is no gear treadmill in ESO, I raid in it myself. Gear treadmill usually refers to the ever increases power curve requiring you to keep up.

[maddoctor.2738]

@"vesica tempestas.1563" said:the majority dont raid in GW2, the majority (e.g millions of players) do raid in other games such as eso ,wow etc because have different skill level's and far far less drama (well ESO, wow is a cesspit because of the gear race) The 'evidence' is in plain sight. The majority of players in GW2 don't have access to 10 man casual instances that other AAA mmorpgs and GW1 provide. So basically if you are a casual PVE player you have no end game appart form 5 man instances. Poor right.

I'd rather see this evidence that you must have to claim that the "majority" is raiding in other games.I'd also like to see games where the vast majority of content, like 99.999% of it is in open world huge zones and not games that are only about raiding. If they are only about raiding it makes sense that everyone is raiding...Go on post the proof now and we can discuss it.

[Bladestrom.6425]

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@"vesica tempestas.1563" said:the majority dont raid in GW2, the majority (e.g millions of players) do raid in other games such as eso ,wow etc because have different skill level's and far far less drama (well ESO, wow is a cesspit because of the gear race) The 'evidence' is in plain sight. The majority of players in GW2 don't have access to 10 man casual instances that other AAA mmorpgs and GW1 provide. So basically if you are a casual PVE player you have no end game appart form 5 man instances. Poor right.

I'd rather see this evidence that you must have to claim that the "majority" is raiding in other games.I'd also like to see games where the vast majority of content, like 99.999% of it is in open world huge zones and not games that are only about raiding. If they are only about raiding it makes sense that everyone is raiding...Go on post the proof now and we can discuss it.

being disingenuous doesn't really achieve anything

[nia.4725]

@"Miatela.5047" said:

@"nia.4725" said:

I've had some problems with this, too. At first, because I had to always play druid. It's my main and I love it, but it isn't fun having to play always the same profession. Then it happened with my handkiter rev. I hate having to play something in particular because no one else can. However, I don't think an easy mode so dumbed down that those roles aren't necessary anymore isn't the solution. It would solve your problem with not being able to play thief (although, honestly, thief is viable in the current raids), but it wouldn't solve my problem. I mean, it would not solve every diversity problem. You will also need boons, you will always need a handkiter, you will always need a tank.

So, I agree - somewhat! The reason you always need to play the same profession is because Druid is that strong - it is a balancing issue and one that Anet has had three years to fix (along with Chronomancer being 20% of a necessary raid composition and the necessity of Warriors because they too bring overpowered passive buffs). It is clear that this is a real challenge for Anet to resolve as even after this period of time and the introduction of a raft of new Elite professions (that could have brought non-stacking Banner- or Spirit-like buffs or offered an alacrity plus quickness combo) there hasn't been much advance aside from making balance decisions regarding Grace of the Land that should have been resolved in HoT beta and entrenching Warrior and Druid by creating unique 10 man buffs.

So without the option of balance that is anywhere close to equitable (and I guess Thief is on the absolute cusp of viable), an easier mode which wouldn't require wonderful boon uptimes or banners and could allow for off-meta comps for people to mess around with on a Friday night following clearing on a Monday would be quite nice - especially if it meant being able to involve less experienced family and friends. Sure, you'd still need a handkiter but perhaps with the reduced damage and mechanics of an "easy" mode that could be pretty much anyone rather than that Herald I get to pull out for Deimos and River of Souls before she gathers dust.

Of course, I wouldn't encourage an easy mode without, at the minimum, repeatable CMs.

Yeah, we have very bad balance profession and anet should adress these issues ASAP. I don't think they will do it, tho. My guess is that, even though the community rages a lot about the dominance of chronos, druids and warriors, this issue can't be solved unless you break them... and the community wouldn't like it, at all. I mean, how can a profession be a good alternate option to chrono? They would need to give us an entirely new profession, or kill chronos as we know them right now. And if that happened, the raiding community would go absolutely, completely mad.

But I have to admit that the latest changes to druid made them dispensable. Yes, it's still very strong, but they're not essential anymore if you run an alternate composition capable of providing what druid provides. Right now, frost spirit is just a 5% buff and that isn't that necessary. Might can be provided by other professions, as well as healing. You just need to think carefully. But it's true that druids are still and will remain meta, specially in pug groups, because people just know them more. Few people will be able to think about an alternate composition. I'm lucky to have a raid leader who likes creating builds and comps, so we currently do some bosses without a single druid. And when we do have druid, it's just one. What I mean with this is that there's a difference between what is doable and what people actually do. Raids with alternate builds, alternate comps, no druids... are doable, but what will 90% of raiders do? They'll just run what they have always run, unless the change Anet introduces to the professions is so big, SO BIG, that they have no choice other than change compositions. And anet should think about the latter -the majority will just keep using 2 chronos, 2 druids (even if only 1 is necessary) and 1 warrior. If they want to balance things and introduce more profession diversity they need to make REAL changes. Until now, we haven't had a single significant change, something that really shakes the meta and forces it to change. Chrono is just too unique and too strong. Yup, healers may be changed in some bosses, but chrono is still the King and Queen of PvE Raids and, it seems to me, will be for a long time. Not that I'm hating chrono, I actually love playing it and I wouldn't like getting it destroyed XD.

Now, getting back to easy mode raids... I'm really not a fan of patching things. An easy mode to allow more diversity is a patch to cover the huge issue we have with balance, and I don't like it. If there's an issue, resolve the issue, don't patch it. That's just ugly. I get your idea of having a more relaxed version of raids, and that aspect of easy mode is somehow appealing, but it would be used to farm rewards and I don't think it would help raids at all, nor it would bring new people to normal mode raids. It would be like those expectation/reality memes, in my opinion.

[maddoctor.2738]

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:the majority dont raid in GW2, the majority (e.g millions of players) do raid in other games such as eso ,wow etc because have different skill level's and far far less drama (well ESO, wow is a cesspit because of the gear race) The 'evidence' is in plain sight. The majority of players in GW2 don't have access to 10 man casual instances that other AAA mmorpgs and GW1 provide. So basically if you are a casual PVE player you have no end game appart form 5 man instances. Poor right.

I'd rather see this evidence that you must have to claim that the "majority" is raiding in other games.I'd also like to see games where the vast majority of content, like 99.999% of it is in open world huge zones and not games that are only about raiding. If they are only about raiding it makes sense that everyone is raiding...Go on post the proof now and we can discuss it.

being disingenuous doesn't really achieve anything

So you don't have any data to share just an empty claim about the "majority" in other games. Good to know.

[Bladestrom.6425]

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:the majority dont raid in GW2, the majority (e.g millions of players) do raid in other games such as eso ,wow etc because have different skill level's and far far less drama (well ESO, wow is a cesspit because of the gear race) The 'evidence' is in plain sight. The majority of players in GW2 don't have access to 10 man casual instances that other AAA mmorpgs and GW1 provide. So basically if you are a casual PVE player you have no end game appart form 5 man instances. Poor right.

I'd rather see this evidence that you must have to claim that the "majority" is raiding in other games.I'd also like to see games where the vast majority of content, like 99.999% of it is in open world huge zones and not games that are only about raiding. If they are only about raiding it makes sense that everyone is raiding...Go on post the proof now and we can discuss it.

being disingenuous doesn't really achieve anything

So you don't have any data to share just an empty claim about the "majority" in other games. Good to know.

well quite frankly you are perfectly capable of using google yourself. But to save you a couple klicks, WOW has 70% + lfr to give one example.

[maddoctor.2738]

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:the majority dont raid in GW2, the majority (e.g millions of players) do raid in other games such as eso ,wow etc because have different skill level's and far far less drama (well ESO, wow is a cesspit because of the gear race) The 'evidence' is in plain sight. The majority of players in GW2 don't have access to 10 man casual instances that other AAA mmorpgs and GW1 provide. So basically if you are a casual PVE player you have no end game appart form 5 man instances. Poor right.

I'd rather see this evidence that you must have to claim that the "majority" is raiding in other games.I'd also like to see games where the vast majority of content, like 99.999% of it is in open world huge zones and not games that are only about raiding. If they are only about raiding it makes sense that everyone is raiding...Go on post the proof now and we can discuss it.

being disingenuous doesn't really achieve anything

So you don't have any data to share just an empty claim about the "majority" in other games. Good to know.

well quite frankly you are perfectly capable of using google yourself. But to save you a couple klicks, WOW has 70% + lfr to give one example.

I'm not gonna use google because I'm not the one making any claims. That's on your end to find and present with obvious links that prove your point. If you don't know what a link is, you can google it.

[Brynioch.1873]

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:the majority dont raid in GW2, the majority (e.g millions of players) do raid in other games such as eso ,wow etc because have different skill level's and far far less drama (well ESO, wow is a cesspit because of the gear race) The 'evidence' is in plain sight. The majority of players in GW2 don't have access to 10 man casual instances that other AAA mmorpgs and GW1 provide. So basically if you are a casual PVE player you have no end game appart form 5 man instances. Poor right.

I'd rather see this evidence that you must have to claim that the "majority" is raiding in other games.I'd also like to see games where the vast majority of content, like 99.999% of it is in open world huge zones and not games that are only about raiding. If they are only about raiding it makes sense that everyone is raiding...Go on post the proof now and we can discuss it.

being disingenuous doesn't really achieve anything

So you don't have any data to share just an empty claim about the "majority" in other games. Good to know.

well quite frankly you are perfectly capable of using google yourself. But to save you a couple klicks, WOW has 70% + lfr to give one example.

70% participation while 50% of the content after expansion release are raids. Pretty bad numbers hmm? And you still need to substract a hefty amount for the non existent convinient features we don't have and won't get.The only thing you show is that there is a huge amount of people that won't touch raids with a ten foot pole regardless of the difficulty and during a content drought.

[Bladestrom.6425]

@Miellyn.6847 said:

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:the majority dont raid in GW2, the majority (e.g millions of players) do raid in other games such as eso ,wow etc because have different skill level's and far far less drama (well ESO, wow is a cesspit because of the gear race) The 'evidence' is in plain sight. The majority of players in GW2 don't have access to 10 man casual instances that other AAA mmorpgs and GW1 provide. So basically if you are a casual PVE player you have no end game appart form 5 man instances. Poor right.

I'd rather see this evidence that you must have to claim that the "majority" is raiding in other games.I'd also like to see games where the vast majority of content, like 99.999% of it is in open world huge zones and not games that are only about raiding. If they are only about raiding it makes sense that everyone is raiding...Go on post the proof now and we can discuss it.

being disingenuous doesn't really achieve anything

So you don't have any data to share just an empty claim about the "majority" in other games. Good to know.

well quite frankly you are perfectly capable of using google yourself. But to save you a couple klicks, WOW has 70% + lfr to give one example.

70% participation while 50% of the content after expansion release are raids. Pretty bad numbers hmm? And you still need to substract a hefty amount for the non existent convinient features we don't have and won't get.The only thing you show is that there is a huge amount of people that won't touch raids with a ten foot pole regardless of the difficulty and during a content drought.

,actually the report had 70% regularly attended lfr raids (that's not even including normal/mythic etc above that) ie the majority which is the word you just HAD to respond to. do you even know what you are arguing for?

ps, even at your '50%' figure that is indeed millions of players playing normal mode in just 1 game, and much more than the harder modes. Understand now?