Do raids need easy/normal/hard difficulty mode? [merged]

[Sykper.6583]

@STIHL.2489 said:How do people know they don't enjoy getting hit in the head with a hammer, and if they don't like it at the start, maybe they are not trying hard enough to enjoy it?

Bad Logic is Bad.

Hyperbole. Try again.

[nia.4725]

@STIHL.2489 said:How do people know they don't enjoy getting hit in the head with a hammer, and if they don't like it at the start, maybe they are not trying hard enough to enjoy it?

Bad Logic is Bad.

I didn't like WvW at the start. It was weird, I felt uncomfortable, I just didn't like it. So I stopped trying to play that game mode.Some time after, I decided to try again. I got a good build, I spent more time playing WvW that the first failed time, and discovered that I really like WvW.

When I started raiding, I didn't like it enough to commit to it. I just enjoyed raiding casually. I had spent very little time raiding, but I claimed I didn't like it enough. But I kept raiding on my static schedule, and after getting a little more experienced (I think, when I had killed the easiest bosses) I discovered that I loved raiding. My only problem and the cause for me thinking that I didn't like raids was my toxic raid leader, not raids themselves.

Sometimes you haven't tried something enough to know if you really like it or not. I don't know if this is the case with Ohoni or anyone else, but this happens. Don't come here with hyperboles that don't make sense.

[STIHL.2489]

@Sykper.6583 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:How do people know they don't enjoy getting hit in the head with a hammer, and if they don't like it at the start, maybe they are not trying hard enough to enjoy it?

Bad Logic is Bad.

Hyperbole. Try again.

Maybe it would be better if your side just stopped the nonsense.

[Feanor.2358]

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:You had to put some effort for something, it is only normal you would feel cheated if someone else can get it for significantly less.

A little, sure, but not enough to justify not

wanting

them to have that thing.

I don't mind you

having

that thing. I just want you to put the same effort everyone else did. It is only fair.

I see that reasoning as being overly convenient, as it kills two birds with one stone. You can claim that it's "fair," but only because it is a situation that already favors you, it provides you with the reward for doing something you would want to do anyway.

Except it doesn't and I would not necessarily do it anyway. When I started raiding I was a casual scrub who was curious about raids and had the vague feeling of wanting my main clad in all legendary.

[TexZero.7910]

@"Ohoni.6057" said:I see that reasoning as being overly convenient

Pot meet Kettle.

Funny how a logical assertion for someone is now "Overly Convenient" for them, but really is just your way of throwing a tantrum that you don't have it your way.Well sorry to bust your bubble mate, this ain't Burger King and never will be.

[STIHL.2489]

Welcome to the Raid Discussion, Understand, that Everything that can be said, has been said by someone before you, better. Even the snarky pithy little jabs you hope to add, have been done better. If you need some assistance, Snarky Hostile commentary that was so savage that a few of us got vacations for,, can be found in the first 20 pages (well, maybe not found anymore, but trust me, some of the stuff was epic, too bad you missed it). Good ideas start in the last 20's early 30'.. along with some really bad ideas, . Mindless back and forth that amounts to nothing, can be found peppered throughout the whole topic, is pretty much the solitary content of pages 40+, and you are here.. in the 60's.

[Astralporing.1957]

@Miellyn.6847 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Miellyn.6847 said:We already had dungeon completion rates in one of those threads. GW2efficiency completion raids don't even reach 50% for dungeons and fractals in the 3000h+ brackets and it tends to attract the more hardcore players. The real numbers will be worse.As it has been pointed out already, no, we don't have those numbers. We only have numbers for doing

all

the paths, which is not the same. For example, i'm pretty sure completion rates for CoF p1 were much higher than for all 3. And completion rates for AC were around 60% even in the "all players" bracket.If you want to compare those numbers, compare dungeon completions to doing whole wings.

AC is different as it is the only dungeon that is still relevant for current content. If you want to play a healer you are forced to play AC as it is the only place in the game where you can aquire the monk rune unless you count mystic forge gamble as a source but getting 6 monk runes could take a while.

At different points in time Nightmare and Aristocracy runes were also part of the meta, but that didn't really impact the gw2eff completion rates. Why? Because for the most part people weren't doing

all

paths on those. TA completion rate on efficiency, for example is way lower than it is, because most people run only up, and don't touch assault. And efficiency doesn't track individual paths.The real reason why AC has completion rates way higher than other dungeons is because it doesn't have the "hard" path.

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Miellyn.6847 said:Of course it will create an uproar in the raiding community. Make the WvW and sPvP exclusive skins available through other content and you will see the same reaction. >But raiders are special and evil.

Anyone

trying to gatekeep their own special shineys from others who would enjoy them is "special" and "evil." It's just not a good look, on anyone.

Actually it's the most normal and sensible reaction. You had to put some effort for something, it is only normal you would feel cheated if someone else can get it for significantly less. Your appeal to altruism would look better if you weren't trying to persuade others to be altruistic to your own benefit. It would still be naive, but it would look better.I already have the envoy armor, and i still agree that it shouldn't be gatekeeped so strongly. So you can tell me again how selfish i am.

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:Different skins would work. This doesn't nullify the meaning of the already earned rewards.

Ye, I just don't understand what the arguments are about, its a no brainer, and already the established reward model for GW. Anyone arguing for the same skin or no reward are basically arguing to damage the game for all including themselves.It's mainly because most of the people saying they'd be perfectly okay with different skins are also agreeing that the actual chance of getting those different skills is next to nil. Incidentally, before anet mentioned that they won't do another legendary skin, pro-raid group was much, much more strongly opposed to the idea of a second legendary set with a different skin. A lot of the posters feel it's safe to agree with that option now only because they

know

it's not really going to happen.

@Teamkiller.4315 said:So how exactly do you know you couldn't possibly enjoy raids when you've invested so little time into trying to find an interest in them?I don't need to spend months hitting the wall with my face to know i'd really not enjoy the feeling. Seriously, it doesn't take long for people to know whether they will like a certain content or not. And repeating it over and over again in hope you will eventually start liking it...You do remember that anegdotal definition of madness, right?

(yes, your feelings about a content can change overtime, but trying to force it really is madness)

[Ohoni.6057]

@nia.4725 said:Sometimes you haven't tried something enough to know if you really like it or not. I don't know if this is the case with Ohoni or anyone else, but this happens. Don't come here with hyperboles that don't make sense.

That's nice, but sometimes people know themselves well enough to judge how much they do or do not enjoy something. I think it's fair for people to give something a try, but I also think it's important to respect their decisions, and if they decide that something is not for them, they should not be held hostage to a system that requires them to do it anyway to unlock things that they might want from the game. Alternatives should be available.

@Feanor.2358 said:Except it doesn't and I would not necessarily do it anyway. When I started raiding I was a casual scrub who was curious about raids and had the vague feeling of wanting my main clad in all legendary.

But you seem to enjoy raiding now, and now is when you're making the argument that those who don't enjoy raiding shouldn't have any alternative paths.

[Feanor.2358]

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:Except it doesn't and I would not necessarily do it anyway. When I started raiding I was a casual scrub who was curious about raids and had the vague feeling of wanting my main clad in all legendary.

But you seem to enjoy raiding

now,

and now is when you're making the argument that those who don't enjoy raiding shouldn't have any alternative paths.

My enjoyment here is irrelevant and my objection is on principle. For instance, I would object the same way if you asked for an alternative path toward The Ascension. Which I like, don't have, and won't have, since I don't enjoy PvP. So see, it's not the subjectivity, it's the principle I'm defending here. Exclusive rewards are necessary. And changing the rules for rewards that have existed and people have earned is utterly unfair. That's why it can't happen.

[Ohoni.6057]

@"Feanor.2358" said:My enjoyment here is irrelevant and my objection is on principle

And as I noted, that is an awfully convenient stance to take when things are already working out the way that benefits you.

For instance, I would object the same way if you asked for an alternative path toward The Ascension. Which I like, don't have, and won't have, since I don't enjoy PvP.

Then apparently you don't care about it enough, because if you did, you would do something about it, either work to earn it under the current method, or work to open up alternate avenues.

And changing the rules for rewards that have existed and people have earned is utterly unfair. That's why it can't happen.

And yet ANet have already done this numerous times in the past. LWs1 rewards becoming available for Laurels. "time limited" Black Lion merch. Black Lion items going on sale at a reduced price. Legendary weapons being open to the wardrobe system. Dungeon armors and other rare armors earned in PvP being usable in the rest of the game. Precursor crafting. Increased availability of Ascended drops. Fluctuating prices of materials that mean plenty of people have paid much more to craft/unlock items than others have when the material prices were more favorable. Making it easier to acquire certain Hero Point locations so that players can more easily max out their elite specs.

Anet has a pretty common track record of "devaluing" a reward IF it's viewed as being in the general player-base's interests, IF the number of people who would benefit is higher or more justified than the people who would be "harmed" by it. Since the only "harm" here is the existential idea that "someone getting something for less than I paid" is basically every single day in a market economy, I'm sorry if I can't dredge up any tears for your side of this scenario.

[Feanor.2358]

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:My enjoyment here is irrelevant and my objection is on principle

And as I noted, that is an awfully convenient stance to take when things are already working out the way that benefits you.

No it isn't, because I gave an example of holding the same principle when it does not benefit me. You ignoring this example doesn't make your claim any more valid.

@Ohoni.6057 said:

For instance, I would object the same way if you asked for an alternative path toward The Ascension. Which I like, don't have, and won't have, since I don't enjoy PvP.

Then apparently you don't care about it

enough,

because if you did, you would do something about it, either work to earn it under the current method, or work to open up alternate avenues.

If I cared about it enough, I'd play PvP. I would not whine on forums to change the rules of the game just because I'm "speshul".

[Ohoni.6057]

@"Feanor.2358" said:No it isn't, because I gave an example of holding the same principle when it does not benefit me. You ignoring this example doesn't make your claim any more valid.

No, you didn't, you provided an example of a situation where clearly you didn't care enough for the situation to matter to you. If it was actually a situation in which you cared about the outcome, then you would do something about it.

If I cared about it enough, I'd play PvP. I would not whine on forums to change the rules of the game just because I'm "speshul".

That's your choice, but it's no more or less valid than whining about it on the forums. Whatever makes you happy.

[Dayra.7405]

To much organization and waiting for no fun.I don’t play for rewards, I play for fun. And that isn’t given when you spend most of the time gathering specialized people in specialized gear.

As long as raids don‘t work with random groups without kicking they don‘t fit the GW2 experience and are superfluous in the game.

[Feanor.2358]

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@"Feanor.2358" said:No it isn't, because I gave an example of holding the same principle when it does not benefit me. You ignoring this example doesn't make your claim any more valid.

No, you didn't, you provided an example of a situation where clearly you didn't care enough for the situation to

matter

to you. If it was actually a situation in which you cared about the outcome, then you would do something about it.

If I cared about it enough, I'd play PvP. I would not whine on forums to change the rules of the game just because I'm "speshul".

That's your choice, but it's no more or less valid than whining about it on the forums. Whatever makes you happy.

In fact it is more valid, as it takes into account the needs of others.

@"Dayra.7405" said:To much organization and waiting for no fun.I don’t play for rewards, I play for fun. And that isn’t given when you spend most of the time gathering specialized people in specialized gear.

As long as raids don‘t work with random groups without kicking they don‘t fit the GW2 experience and are superfluous in the game.

Meaning the "GW2 experience" is facerolling hordes of monsters that pose no real danger whatsoever. If I wanted that, I'd play Diablo 3.

[Ohoni.6057]

@"Feanor.2358" said:In fact it is more valid, as it takes into account the needs of others.

But I also am taking into account the needs of others, more than your position does, so that's a moot point.

Meaning the "GW2 experience" is facerolling hordes of monsters that pose no real danger whatsoever. If I wanted that, I'd play Diablo 3.

It's unwise to play the "if you don't like how the game works, play something else" argument while defending raids in GW2.

[Dayra.7405]

@"Feanor.2358" said:Meaning the "GW2 experience" is facerolling hordes of monsters that pose no real danger whatsoever. If I wanted that, I'd play Diablo 3.

Faceroll, hm, you overorganize if you do :)

Of course I would change some other things as well.

• no kick from parties, only afk management
• aggro always goes to least defense or to most damage, not to most defense (its really stupid from mobs to attack the one that is harder to kill, but leave the ones that harm it.)
• group bufs are strongly reduced, e.g. the more targets they hit the weaker they are.

[nia.4725]

@"Dayra.7405" said:To much organization and waiting for no fun.I don’t play for rewards, I play for fun. And that isn’t given when you spend most of the time gathering specialized people in specialized gear.

As long as raids don‘t work with random groups without kicking they don‘t fit the GW2 experience and are superfluous in the game.

You already have all the damn game, why do you want raids to be another autoattacking fiesta? You say we're selfish because we don't want raids to have an easy mode, but you already have an easy mode game and still complain that raids aren't like that. Do you really feel entitled to have a full easy mode game? GW2 isn't what you want it to be, and the fact that GW2 is mostly casual content does not mean that it has to be full casual content, or that ALL the content in the game has to be playable in a casual way. That's being selfish and entitled.

If you don't like raids then don't raid, it's easy. If you want to experience raids then accept that difficulty and challenge are inherent characteristics of raids. This content is designed to be like this.

And again, GW2 isn't what you want it to be. The "GW2 experience" isn't something you get to define.

And raids are not the only content where random groups don't work. Kicking is not exclusive to raids, either. Wanting a smooth or quick run is natural, it's normal and wanting to have players who know what they're doing is natural too. I do not have any obligation to play with you if you don't meet my standards, and this is something as wide as GW2. If you join my group, you are the one who should be able to meet my standards. And if you don't, you should be the one to leave, not me. If you want to play by your ules, create your own squad. It's simple.

It's funny because instead of trying to get better at the game so you can do your job properly and contribute to a kill, you cry to Anet in hopes to get an easy mode where you can do whatever, so you don't have to do any kind of effort but still get your shinies. 10/10 stuff.

[Dayra.7405]

@nia.4725 said:You already have all the kitten game, why do you want raids to be another autoattacking fiesta? Y

In fact thy don't need a change, I.e. even more effort wasted. They are a failed experiment and should be handled as such: put out of maintenance and new development, but instead other things e.g. dungeons should be reworked. Over time they will become easier anyway.

It's funny because instead of trying to get better at the game so you can do your job properly

It's more rewarding and fun to put ambitions into real-life and relaxation into games, then the other way around ;)

[nia.4725]

@Dayra.7405 said:

@nia.4725 said:You already have all the kitten game, why do you want raids to be another autoattacking fiesta? Y

In fact thy don't need a change, they will become easier and easier over time. I think they should be put out of maintenance and new development, but instead other things e.g. dungeons should be reworked.

?_?

It's funny because instead of trying to get better at the game so you can do your job properly

It's more rewarding and fun to put ambitions into real-life and relaxation into games, then the other way around ;)

1. If you want to play casually, that's completely valid. That does not mean that all the game has to be playable in your way of playing.
2. Raids are playable in a relaxed way. : )

[Ohoni.6057]

@nia.4725 said:Do you really feel entitled to have a full easy mode game?

Yes! We come to this game for an all easymode game! That's why we aren't playing a hard mode game. If we wanted hard mode, we'd be playing something else! Having a game that is 99% one thing and then 1% another is the worst, because it means that people who enjoy most of the game have some portion forever closed off to them. This is why we need an easy mode, so that 100% of the game is open to those who enjoy most of it.

[nia.4725]

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@"nia.4725" said:Do you really feel entitled to have a full easy mode game?

Yes!

We come to this game for an all easymode game! That's why we aren't playing a hard mode game. If we wanted hard mode, we'd be playing something else! Having a game that is 99% one thing and then 1% another is the worst, because it means that people who enjoy most of the game have some portion forever closed off to them. This is why we need an easy mode, so that 100% of the game is open to those who enjoy most of it.

entitledadjective UK ​ /ɪnˈtaɪ.təld/ /ɪnˈtaɪ.t̬əld/ disapproving​feeling that you have the right to do or have what you want without having to work for it or deserve it, just because of who you are:

Is the 100% of the game open for me, that I don't enjoy casual "do whatever" playing? Should anet do a hard mode of every content in the game? No?

[Vinceman.4572]

@"Dayra.7405" said:They are a failed experiment and should be handled as such: put out of maintenance and new development, but instead other things e.g. dungeons should be reworked. Over time they will become easier anyway.

Why are they "a failed experiment"? There is zero indication for that. Not in the slightest. It's the other way round. They are a big success according to the statements of Anet about the number of players actually playing them.

It's more rewarding and fun to put ambitions into real-life and relaxation into games, then the other way around ;)

Matter of opinion. I'd rather put more effort into gaming and having fun than becoming a working slave.

@Ohoni.6057 said:Yes! We come to this game for an all easymode game!

I didn't came for an easy mode game. I came to GW2 for having fun. At the moment only the challenging content a.k.a. Raids, CMs & T4s are the fun stuff in this game for me. Also, GW2 wasn't advertised as an easy game. So, you can only speak for yourself.

[Feanor.2358]

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:In fact it is more valid, as it takes into account the needs of others.

But I also am taking into account the needs of others, more than your position does, so that's a moot point.

No it doesn't.

@Dayra.7405 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:Meaning the "GW2 experience" is facerolling hordes of monsters that pose no real danger whatsoever. If I wanted that, I'd play Diablo 3.

Faceroll, hm, you overorganize if you do :)

Of course I would change some other things as well.

• no kick from parties, only afk management
• aggro always goes to least defense or to most damage, not to most defense (its really stupid from mobs to attack the one that is harder to kill, but leave the ones that harm it.)
• group bufs are strongly reduced, e.g. the more targets they hit the weaker they are.

So less teamplay? Thanks, but no thanks.

[Feanor.2358]

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@nia.4725 said:Do you really feel entitled to have a full easy mode game?

Yes!

We come to this game for an all easymode game! That's why we aren't playing a hard mode game. If we wanted hard mode, we'd be playing something else! Having a game that is 99% one thing and then 1% another is the worst, because it means that people who enjoy most of the game have some portion forever closed off to them. This is why we need an easy mode, so that 100% of the game is open to those who enjoy most of it.

So play the easy mode. It's 95% of all the content. Is the existence of those 5% for others such a big problem so you cannot possibly let them have it?

[Ohoni.6057]

@"nia.4725" said:entitledadjective UK ​ /ɪnˈtaɪ.təld/ /ɪnˈtaɪ.t̬əld/ disapproving​feeling that you have the right to do or have what you want without having to work for it or deserve it, just because of who you are:

Is the 100% of the game open for me, that I don't enjoy casual "do whatever" playing? Should anet do a hard mode of every content in the game? No?

The whole "entitled" meme really needs to go, or at least apply it accurately to raiders who feel that they are uniquely entitled to everything the devs have attached to raids.

@Feanor.2358 said:So play the easy mode. It's 95% of all the content. Is the existence of those 5% for others such a big problem so you cannot possibly let them have it?

I would if they would add it, which is my point in being here. There is other content, but it is not an easy mode raid, so it's entirely irrelevant to this discussion. I have no problem with raiders having their hard mode versions, so long as easy mode versions also exist for everyone else.