Do raids need easy/normal/hard difficulty mode? [merged]

[Astralporing.1957]

@Ze Dos Cavalos.6132 said:A raid Dev should come here and say they will never make raid easy mode so this discussion finish once and for all :expressionless:They won't do that. They might say they don't have any plans to do that at the moment, but they won't commit to saying the plans will definitely won't change. Because plans do change sometimes. Raids are an example of that.The devs know that. The raiders arguing against these ideas know that as well (which is why they're so vehement in the defence of their own side instead of just ignoring the threads, which they'd likely do if they really thought this train of suggestions has zero chance of being heard).

[Eramonster.2718]

@Tyson.5160If it's just 5 Li, just try to create a squad/raid platforms to snipe down the easy bosses (Vg, Gorse, Escort, Mursaat etc) could probably earn you more/quicker than clearing all 5 raids for it. Slowly accumulate the shards and get the boss kill to unlock the skins (to be redeemable). But it might open to another concern later on. You can't use easy modes as reference to normal mode to learn and players might use these Li to get into elite groups. Like how fractals lower tier mechanics are skipped or made weaker, T4 will be new as the bosses lives longer thus gets to perform all their skills. Then there are also other problems like how skill balancing will effect both mode in the future etc aside from shinnies.

@Ohoni.6057You made your point by now. But keep an open mind to accept the opinions of others (just like how you're thinking others are dimissing your idea, you've been dismissing theirs? Imo)

[Tyson.5160]

@Eramonster.2718 said:@Tyson.5160If it's just 5 Li, just try to create a squad/raid platforms to snipe down the easy bosses (Vg, Gorse, Escort, Mursaat etc) could probably earn you more/quicker than clearing all 5 raids for it. Slowly accumulate the shards and get the boss kill to unlock the skins (to be redeemable). But it might open to another concern later on. You can't use easy modes as reference to normal mode to learn and players might use these Li to get into elite groups. Like how fractals lower tier mechanics are skipped or made weaker, T4 will be new as the bosses lives longer thus gets to perform all their skills. Then there are also other problems like how skill balancing will effect both mode in the future etc aside from shinnies.

@Ohoni.6057You made your point by now. But keep an open mind to accept the opinions of others (just like how you're thinking others are dimissing your idea, you've been dismissing theirs? Imo)

Oh I think Raids have a big concern for the future, as in will there always been a shiny legendary carrot for each raid wing and if not will number of people raiding slowly drop.

My personal issue is slightly different then Ohoni, I slowly accumulated LI by pugging. Pugging is literately soul sucking, and there have been days that I had to stop and turn the game off, due to the verbal abuse and berating, I experienced. I attempted to find a guild, however I can only play during the day, while guilds doing clears do so in the evenings. So it’s been quite the struggle for the last 9 months. To the point that I don’t bother now.

[Vinceman.4572]

@"Astralporing.1957" said:The raiders arguing against these ideas know that as well (which is why they're so vehement in the defence of their own side instead of just ignoring the threads, which they'd likely do if they really thought this train of suggestions has zero chance of being heard).

Yes, everyone of us (raiders) is aware about the probability that there could be a change in the future but nobody knows the level of that probability. It also doesn't matter to us I would say.When you say "ignoring" the threads I'm a little bit more irritated because it is not the case that there is a huge group forming and constantly protesting against the actual situation about raids. Actually we had more threads about "How can I get into raiding?" than "I cannot get into raiding." here in the past. Even on reddit - the most used platform for GW2 discussions - the voices are in fact directed towards getting into raiding than to complain about it.In the forums it's the same 3-5 people advocating against raids and even not new or different kind of players that paints a picture of a significant player base that is unhappy with the current situation. We also can't pretend to say they're all gone by now when Anet employees present themselves here in the forums and newly at PAX and say that they are pleased with the current situation and numbers about raids.

Furthermore some of us already made statements in a positive direction about easy modes. I'm totally not against such a mode if the resources are used reasonably.For example if the number of players is so high that easy mode raids are needed every GW2 player could at least wait 6 months between LS updates so a good portion of developers can focus on tuning down normal mode raids. Also, if you say this mode needs rewards. Yes, okay but not the leggy armor. Develop an easy/training mode so that people can practice and try a lot until they feel comfortable to head for the actual ones. They would still be able to join a training guild/discord and start with bosses like Escort, Cairn, MO, Samarog, Trio which are in fact easy as hell. I said it before that there are events in the open world that are harder to succeed than Escort. But no that is refused by you. You want all or nothing and that's why some of us arguing against it because it definitely wouldn't be healthy for the game. Otherwise I would rather support your position and not comment any further.

[Ohoni.6057]

@Eramonster.2718 said:You made your point by now. But keep an open mind to accept the opinions of others (just like how you're thinking others are dimissing your idea, you've been dismissing theirs? Imo)

It's not a 1:1 thing though. I listen to what people say, I just continue to disagree with the positions they take. The fact of the matter is, they already have what they want, and I'm still fighting for mine. They can go away and, if they are right, they will continue to have everything they want here and nothing that they don't. If I go away, I'll continue to not have what I believe is important here. When ANet adds an easy mode raid that satisfies the conditions discussed, then I can agree to disagree and move on.

@"Tyson.5160" said:My personal issue is slightly different then Ohoni, I slowly accumulated LI by pugging. Pugging is literately soul sucking, and there have been days that I had to stop and turn the game off, due to the verbal abuse and berating, I experienced. I attempted to find a guild, however I can only play during the day, while guilds doing clears do so in the evenings. So it’s been quite the struggle for the last 9 months. To the point that I don’t bother now.

See, and according to the raiders around here, that's "working as intended," that's you "doing it right" like a good little soldier. The only difference between you and me is that I know from past life experience that this is the experience I would have, and I didn't want to put myself through it, so I just skipped that step and moved on to "making it into something better."

[Feanor.2358]

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:You're focusing on how you

want

people to behave rather than on how they actually do. This is your mistake.

And you believe that you

aren't?

I don't believe it, I know it. I'm not telling you how to

behave

. I'm merely telling you why you're wrong and why the realities of this particular game are not how you think they should be.

But you're basically trying to perpetuate the myth that any player can come to enjoy the raiding lifestyle if they just want it hard enough, which isn't true. Either accept that many players will NEVER be happy with the current situation and that you don't care that they will be unhappy, or work toward their happiness.

There will

always

be players unhappy with any situation you choose.

Always

. You can't work toward resolving that, for the simple reason that players are different and they ultimately desire different things. What you can work for is a compromise. And a compromise is exactly what the current situation is. You're not into raiding "lifestyle"? Good. You have 95% of the PvE content in the game designed for you.

That’s not really a compromise. If my two kids were fighting over a toy, the compromise wouldn’t be that one gets it and the other doesn’t. The compromise would be taking turns using the same toy.

And yet giving the toy to one of the kids is exactly what you want. :)

[Ohoni.6057]

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:You're focusing on how you

want

people to behave rather than on how they actually do. This is your mistake.

And you believe that you

aren't?

I don't believe it, I know it. I'm not telling you how to

behave

. I'm merely telling you why you're wrong and why the realities of this particular game are not how you think they should be.

But you're basically trying to perpetuate the myth that any player can come to enjoy the raiding lifestyle if they just want it hard enough, which isn't true. Either accept that many players will NEVER be happy with the current situation and that you don't care that they will be unhappy, or work toward their happiness.

There will

always

be players unhappy with any situation you choose.

Always

. You can't work toward resolving that, for the simple reason that players are different and they ultimately desire different things. What you can work for is a compromise. And a compromise is exactly what the current situation is. You're not into raiding "lifestyle"? Good. You have 95% of the PvE content in the game designed for you.

That’s not really a compromise. If my two kids were fighting over a toy, the compromise wouldn’t be that one gets it and the other doesn’t. The compromise would be taking turns using the same toy.

And yet giving the toy to one of the kids is exactly what you want. :)

The point---------------------->Head.

[Tyson.5160]

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:You're focusing on how you

want

people to behave rather than on how they actually do. This is your mistake.

And you believe that you

aren't?

I don't believe it, I know it. I'm not telling you how to

behave

. I'm merely telling you why you're wrong and why the realities of this particular game are not how you think they should be.

But you're basically trying to perpetuate the myth that any player can come to enjoy the raiding lifestyle if they just want it hard enough, which isn't true. Either accept that many players will NEVER be happy with the current situation and that you don't care that they will be unhappy, or work toward their happiness.

There will

always

be players unhappy with any situation you choose.

Always

. You can't work toward resolving that, for the simple reason that players are different and they ultimately desire different things. What you can work for is a compromise. And a compromise is exactly what the current situation is. You're not into raiding "lifestyle"? Good. You have 95% of the PvE content in the game designed for you.

That’s not really a compromise. If my two kids were fighting over a toy, the compromise wouldn’t be that one gets it and the other doesn’t. The compromise would be taking turns using the same toy.

And yet giving the toy to one of the kids is exactly what you want. :)

Nah Mama taught me to share my toys. A compromise ( wouldn’t call this that) where strictly I get the toy and not you, would look like me getting easy mode and deleting normal mode.

[Sykper.6583]

That’s not really a compromise. If my two kids were fighting over a toy, the compromise wouldn’t be that one gets it and the other doesn’t. The compromise would be taking turns using the same toy.

And yet giving the toy to one of the kids is exactly what you want. :)

No that's not quite right. In this instance it'll be like breaking the toy in half and that's how it'll be shared. Obviously the one who had it before is upset that his toy is permanently broken and the one who kept insisting might be able to fiddle with the toy a bit here and there, maybe even enjoy the object for a time until the appeal wears off. Then they discard it because it wasn't really want they wanted in the first place and go back to playing with their regular toys.

Between watching the tournament this weekend and the continued Arenanet statements about it, I'm of the continued belief that raids right now are not in a state where there should come close to a consideration for 'easy-mode'. It's fun to observe the discussion here, but besides the OP's exaggerated and wrong claims about the state of raiding now and some familiar faces here still insisting there is something wrong with the supposed "minority" I'm going to go on a limb here and say that this is yet another thread that misses the point.

Easy-Mode is not a 'compromise' that implies raiding is in a shape where it needs action to change. As of right now Arenanet doesn't see any actionable change that needs to happen, that WOULD have happened in Wing 5 but instead we actually got harder encounters which if that's not enough to tell you their stance I do not know what to say at this point.

[Feanor.2358]

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:You're focusing on how you

want

people to behave rather than on how they actually do. This is your mistake.

And you believe that you

aren't?

I don't believe it, I know it. I'm not telling you how to

behave

. I'm merely telling you why you're wrong and why the realities of this particular game are not how you think they should be.

But you're basically trying to perpetuate the myth that any player can come to enjoy the raiding lifestyle if they just want it hard enough, which isn't true. Either accept that many players will NEVER be happy with the current situation and that you don't care that they will be unhappy, or work toward their happiness.

There will

always

be players unhappy with any situation you choose.

Always

. You can't work toward resolving that, for the simple reason that players are different and they ultimately desire different things. What you can work for is a compromise. And a compromise is exactly what the current situation is. You're not into raiding "lifestyle"? Good. You have 95% of the PvE content in the game designed for you.

That’s not really a compromise. If my two kids were fighting over a toy, the compromise wouldn’t be that one gets it and the other doesn’t. The compromise would be taking turns using the same toy.

And yet giving the toy to one of the kids is exactly what you want. :)

Nah Mama taught me to share my toys. A compromise ( wouldn’t call this that) where strictly I get the toy and not you, would look like me getting easy mode and deleting normal mode.

Which is a very possible outcome. Wishes and intentions aren't the same thing as results. But my point was that some players aren't satisfied with having 95% of the content for themselves, they want all of it. How would you call that, in your parenting/child metaphor?

[Tyson.5160]

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:You're focusing on how you

want

people to behave rather than on how they actually do. This is your mistake.

And you believe that you

aren't?

I don't believe it, I know it. I'm not telling you how to

behave

. I'm merely telling you why you're wrong and why the realities of this particular game are not how you think they should be.

But you're basically trying to perpetuate the myth that any player can come to enjoy the raiding lifestyle if they just want it hard enough, which isn't true. Either accept that many players will NEVER be happy with the current situation and that you don't care that they will be unhappy, or work toward their happiness.

There will

always

be players unhappy with any situation you choose.

Always

. You can't work toward resolving that, for the simple reason that players are different and they ultimately desire different things. What you can work for is a compromise. And a compromise is exactly what the current situation is. You're not into raiding "lifestyle"? Good. You have 95% of the PvE content in the game designed for you.

That’s not really a compromise. If my two kids were fighting over a toy, the compromise wouldn’t be that one gets it and the other doesn’t. The compromise would be taking turns using the same toy.

And yet giving the toy to one of the kids is exactly what you want. :)

Nah Mama taught me to share my toys. A compromise ( wouldn’t call this that) where strictly I get the toy and not you, would look like me getting easy mode and deleting normal mode.

Which is a very possible outcome. Wishes and intentions aren't the same thing as results. But my point was that some players aren't satisfied with having 95% of the content for themselves, they want all of it. How would you call that, in your parenting/child metaphor?

Would call it being human, I suppose. Humans are the hardest things to satisfy.

[Ohoni.6057]

@Feanor.2358 said:Which is a very possible outcome. Wishes and intentions aren't the same thing as results. But my point was that some players aren't satisfied with having 95% of the content for themselves, they want all of it. How would you call that, in your parenting/child metaphor?

What if. . . it's not a quantities game. . .

[Tyson.5160]

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:You're focusing on how you

want

people to behave rather than on how they actually do. This is your mistake.

And you believe that you

aren't?

I don't believe it, I know it. I'm not telling you how to

behave

. I'm merely telling you why you're wrong and why the realities of this particular game are not how you think they should be.

But you're basically trying to perpetuate the myth that any player can come to enjoy the raiding lifestyle if they just want it hard enough, which isn't true. Either accept that many players will NEVER be happy with the current situation and that you don't care that they will be unhappy, or work toward their happiness.

There will

always

be players unhappy with any situation you choose.

Always

. You can't work toward resolving that, for the simple reason that players are different and they ultimately desire different things. What you can work for is a compromise. And a compromise is exactly what the current situation is. You're not into raiding "lifestyle"? Good. You have 95% of the PvE content in the game designed for you.

That’s not really a compromise. If my two kids were fighting over a toy, the compromise wouldn’t be that one gets it and the other doesn’t. The compromise would be taking turns using the same toy.

And yet giving the toy to one of the kids is exactly what you want. :)

Nah Mama taught me to share my toys. A compromise ( wouldn’t call this that) where strictly I get the toy and not you, would look like me getting easy mode and deleting normal mode.

Which is a very possible outcome. Wishes and intentions aren't the same thing as results. But my point was that some players aren't satisfied with having 95% of the content for themselves, they want all of it. How would you call that, in your parenting/child metaphor?

Yeah that’s the best I got.

[Brynioch.1873]

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Eramonster.2718 said:You made your point by now. But keep an open mind to accept the opinions of others (just like how you're thinking others are dimissing your idea, you've been dismissing theirs? Imo)

It's not a 1:1 thing though. I listen to what people say, I just continue to disagree with the positions they take. The fact of the matter is, they already have what they want, and I'm still fighting for mine. They can go away and, if they are right, they will continue to have everything they want here and nothing that they don't. If I go away, I'll continue to not have what I believe is important here. When ANet adds an easy mode raid that satisfies the conditions discussed,

then

I can agree to disagree and move on.

And this is why nobody agrees with you. You don't discuss conditions. You want to dictate them. For your profit, not for the community.

[Ohoni.6057]

@Miellyn.6847 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@"Eramonster.2718" said:You made your point by now. But keep an open mind to accept the opinions of others (just like how you're thinking others are dimissing your idea, you've been dismissing theirs? Imo)

It's not a 1:1 thing though. I listen to what people say, I just continue to disagree with the positions they take. The fact of the matter is, they already have what they want, and I'm still fighting for mine. They can go away and, if they are right, they will continue to have everything they want here and nothing that they don't. If I go away, I'll continue to not have what I believe is important here. When ANet adds an easy mode raid that satisfies the conditions discussed,

then

I can agree to disagree and move on.

And this is why nobody agrees with you. You don't discuss conditions. You want to dictate them. For your profit, not for the community.

Can you genuinely argue that you're listening to me and taking it to heart? I believe that "nobody agrees with me" because they already have everything they want in this scenario, and have no interest in any sort of compromise.

[Ze Dos Cavalos.6132]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Ze Dos Cavalos.6132 said:A raid Dev should come here and say they will never make raid easy mode so this discussion finish once and for all :expressionless:They won't do that. They might say they don't have any plans to do that

at the moment

, but they won't commit to saying the plans will definitely won't change. Because plans do change sometimes. Raids are an example of that.The devs know that. The raiders arguing against these ideas know that as well (which is why they're so vehement in the defence of their own side instead of just ignoring the threads, which they'd likely do if they really thought this train of suggestions has zero chance of being heard).

Well I'm ignoring it, I just felt like commenting coz this discussion is always on top of the page xDAnyway good luck with your discussion :D

[Feanor.2358]

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:You're focusing on how you

want

people to behave rather than on how they actually do. This is your mistake.

And you believe that you

aren't?

I don't believe it, I know it. I'm not telling you how to

behave

. I'm merely telling you why you're wrong and why the realities of this particular game are not how you think they should be.

But you're basically trying to perpetuate the myth that any player can come to enjoy the raiding lifestyle if they just want it hard enough, which isn't true. Either accept that many players will NEVER be happy with the current situation and that you don't care that they will be unhappy, or work toward their happiness.

There will

always

be players unhappy with any situation you choose.

Always

. You can't work toward resolving that, for the simple reason that players are different and they ultimately desire different things. What you can work for is a compromise. And a compromise is exactly what the current situation is. You're not into raiding "lifestyle"? Good. You have 95% of the PvE content in the game designed for you.

That’s not really a compromise. If my two kids were fighting over a toy, the compromise wouldn’t be that one gets it and the other doesn’t. The compromise would be taking turns using the same toy.

And yet giving the toy to one of the kids is exactly what you want. :)

Nah Mama taught me to share my toys. A compromise ( wouldn’t call this that) where strictly I get the toy and not you, would look like me getting easy mode and deleting normal mode.

Which is a very possible outcome. Wishes and intentions aren't the same thing as results. But my point was that some players aren't satisfied with having 95% of the content for themselves, they want all of it. How would you call that, in your parenting/child metaphor?

Would call it being human, I suppose. Humans are the hardest things to satisfy.

Same applies the other way around. We're all humans, we're all hard to satisfy. But there is still a difference - some of us are content with participating in select parts of the game only, while others seem to hold a grudge for feeling "excluded". When in fact it's nothing but our choices that exclude us from this or that. You wanna raid? Then do it. You don't want? Then don't. Simple as that. Demanding a special adapted version of something just so you don't need to put any effort whatsoever in accessing it? I'm sorry, I can't accept that as a serious request. Just imagine what kind of reaction would I get if I sent Ferrari a complaint that their cars are way too expensive and I feel excluded because I can't drive one. But I really, really want to. Would anyone take me seriously? I seriously doubt that.

[Grogba.6204]

@"Astralporing.1957" said:They won't do that. They might say they don't have any plans to do that at the moment, but they won't commit to saying the plans will definitely won't change. Because plans do change sometimes. Raids are an example of that.The devs know that. The raiders arguing against these ideas know that as well (which is why they're so vehement in the defence of their own side instead of just ignoring the threads, which they'd likely do if they really thought this train of suggestions has zero chance of being heard).

I am commenting because you and Ohoni keep bringing up the idea of a player - allow me to call him Bob - who is absolutely unable to raid because the content itself is too difficult and thus warrants nerfing even though said player pulled all levers and did everything in his or her power to get into raids. And this player is just a fabrication, that is the problem here.

Websites like https://www.gw2raidar.com show factual prove that you don't have to play like a god or the top guilds to clear raids. The only thing you gain through the way these people play are shorter boss fights. That's it. if the energy you put into a pointless thread like this was put into the actual content you would have cleared everything multiple times by now.

And besides all that, Ohoni, even if we had an easy mode it would still take 2-3 hours, perhaps longer, to clear all the raid bosses in a week so yes, if you cannot bring up the time to do that then Raids aren't suitable for you or Bob. The individual bosses may take between three to ten minutes - depending on the fight - at this point, too. The most time consuming thing is waiting for players, be it to fill up the squad or for everyone to press ready and the only thing that would prevent that would be nerfing the fights so hard that you finish them pressing one with random gear drooling over your keyboard.

[Brynioch.1873]

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Miellyn.6847 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@"Eramonster.2718" said:You made your point by now. But keep an open mind to accept the opinions of others (just like how you're thinking others are dimissing your idea, you've been dismissing theirs? Imo)

It's not a 1:1 thing though. I listen to what people say, I just continue to disagree with the positions they take. The fact of the matter is, they already have what they want, and I'm still fighting for mine. They can go away and, if they are right, they will continue to have everything they want here and nothing that they don't. If I go away, I'll continue to not have what I believe is important here. When ANet adds an easy mode raid that satisfies the conditions discussed,

then

I can agree to disagree and move on.

And this is why nobody agrees with you. You don't discuss conditions. You want to dictate them. For your profit, not for the community.

Can you genuinely argue that you're listening to me and taking it to heart? I believe that "nobody agrees with me" because they already have everything they want in this scenario, and have no interest in any sort of compromise.

Many of the commenters here agreed partly with your ideas in the past and proposed some changes. But you dismissed everything if it looked like you wouldn't get everything you want. You don't want any compromise where you have to give up some of the things you want. That's not how compromises work.It's funny that you dismiss the past where you lost all credibility and now turn it around that everybody hates you because they want to protect their 'domain'. You didnt't wanted any compromise.You had the chance for a real discussion and you blew it with your selfishness.

[zealex.9410]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@zealex.9410 said:What numb3rs do you have to proe that? I have numbers. Telling me that they might not like streams and whatnot is not proof is your opinion. Numbers talk.We have a game that supposedly have over a million players (or at least it apparently had that much afer HoT launched. The numbers might have gone down since then, of course). You have an activity aimed at hardcore players - players that by nature of the content they do need to be more invested/interested about it (most of them for example do watch raid videos, read guides, keep tabs on meta). And in such a group of players, the content that really should hold their interest gathers 4k viewers. Even if you double, triple or even quadruple that number to cover for those that simply didn't have time to watch at that moment, you're still at 1% of the game population at best.

You can't do that for casual content though. Why? Because the people watching the streams of casual content being done (which in gw2 would likely be quite boring, to be honest) aren't really casual themselves. Thus, the numbers for those types of stream tell you nothing about the casual population, its flow and ebb, as well as likes and dislikes.

YT is far better for that, because (due to your ability to watch the video whenever you want, and by the virtue of being a much more mainstream service) it will have a much greater percentage of casuals watching it (although, there will still be a noticeable overrepresentation of hardcore players)

Basically, what you're doing is a great example of selection bias.

@zealex.9410 said:The numbers went up. Gw2 everaged lower viewership than it does now.The numbers for a specific submode went up. Which wasn't hard, seeing as that submode did not exist in the beginning, so couldn't have had high numbers before.It has higher numbers than streams on casual content? Also not surprising - hardcore players are more likely to watch content aimed at hardcores after all.It tells us however nothing about the changes in the game as a whole.

Theres was a dqv quote saying we got over a million conc players?

[Tyson.5160]

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:You're focusing on how you

want

people to behave rather than on how they actually do. This is your mistake.

And you believe that you

aren't?

I don't believe it, I know it. I'm not telling you how to

behave

. I'm merely telling you why you're wrong and why the realities of this particular game are not how you think they should be.

But you're basically trying to perpetuate the myth that any player can come to enjoy the raiding lifestyle if they just want it hard enough, which isn't true. Either accept that many players will NEVER be happy with the current situation and that you don't care that they will be unhappy, or work toward their happiness.

There will

always

be players unhappy with any situation you choose.

Always

. You can't work toward resolving that, for the simple reason that players are different and they ultimately desire different things. What you can work for is a compromise. And a compromise is exactly what the current situation is. You're not into raiding "lifestyle"? Good. You have 95% of the PvE content in the game designed for you.

That’s not really a compromise. If my two kids were fighting over a toy, the compromise wouldn’t be that one gets it and the other doesn’t. The compromise would be taking turns using the same toy.

And yet giving the toy to one of the kids is exactly what you want. :)

Nah Mama taught me to share my toys. A compromise ( wouldn’t call this that) where strictly I get the toy and not you, would look like me getting easy mode and deleting normal mode.

Which is a very possible outcome. Wishes and intentions aren't the same thing as results. But my point was that some players aren't satisfied with having 95% of the content for themselves, they want all of it. How would you call that, in your parenting/child metaphor?

Would call it being human, I suppose. Humans are the hardest things to satisfy.

Same applies the other way around. We're all humans, we're all hard to satisfy. But there is still a difference - some of us are content with participating in select parts of the game

only

, while others seem to hold a grudge for feeling "excluded". When in fact it's nothing but our choices that exclude us from this or that. You wanna raid? Then do it. You don't want? Then don't. Simple as that. Demanding a special adapted version of something just so you don't need to put any effort whatsoever in accessing it? I'm sorry, I can't accept that as a serious request. Just imagine what kind of reaction would I get if I sent Ferrari a complaint that their cars are way too expensive and I feel excluded because I can't drive one. But I really,

really

want to. Would

anyone

take me seriously? I seriously doubt that.

You can’t blame people for trying. I think eventually we will reach a cap on how many raids there are, just like we have on dungeons, it will reaches a point where the LIs granted after doing a full clear will be so high then it won’t matter. Maybe when that day occurs they can consider looking at additional difficulties, as they are no longer cutting into the actual raid development. That way at the end of this game’s life everyone is happy.

[Astralporing.1957]

@Vinceman.4572 said:In the forums it's the same 3-5 people advocating against raids and even not new or different kind of players that paints a picture of a significant player base that is unhappy with the current situation.It's not like it's not the same small group of raiders that constantly hop in to paint an exactly opposite picture of sunshine and rainbows, right?And if you haven't noticed, it's always the new players that start threads you complain so much about. I don't remember ever starting one, for example.

@Vinceman.4572 said:Furthermore some of us already made statements in a positive direction about easy modes. I'm totally not against such a mode if the resources are used reasonably.For example if the number of players is so high that easy mode raids are needed every GW2 player could at least wait 6 months between LS updates so a good portion of developers can focus on tuning down normal mode raids.Some downtime would be needed, that's true (although i don't think most of the LS devs could be used for that. Fractal ones probably could, though)

@Vinceman.4572 said:Also, if you say this mode needs rewards. Yes, okay but not the leggy armor.Could live with that. If a PvE non-raid legendary path was introduced as well. I'd be fine with it having a diffrent skin (as long as it would be unique and of legendary quality).

@Vinceman.4572 said:Develop an easy/training mode so that people can practice and try a lot until they feel comfortable to head for the actual ones. They would still be able to join a training guild/discord and start with bosses like Escort, Cairn, MO, Samarog, Trio which are in fact easy as hell. I said it before that there are events in the open world that are harder to succeed than Escort. But no that is refused by you.Most of the protests against such suggestions are either from Ohoni (that is serious about opening all skins to all modes, and might sometimes go way too far on some ideas, as i see it), or because the person suggesting it was clearly using some "yes, but" requirements to absolutely make sure noone would be using the mode (like "easy mode? Sure, but only if there's no rewards whatsoever" - that is the most common stipulation, by the way).

You want all or nothing.Because most of the people i argue with are willing to give me exactly nothing and not an inch more.Besides, it's not like i'm asking to make the current raids easier, or to remove them altogether, so it's hardly "all or nothing".

@Sykper.6583 said:

That’s not really a compromise. If my two kids were fighting over a toy, the compromise wouldn’t be that one gets it and the other doesn’t. The compromise would be taking turns using the same toy.

And yet giving the toy to one of the kids is exactly what you want. :)

No that's not quite right. In this instance it'll be like breaking the toy in half and that's how it'll be shared.No. In this case it would be buying a new toy for the other kid so they both can have fun. Except the first kid then starts complaining that the second toy is too similar to his one, and he doesn't want that because he wants to be the only one with it.

@Grogba.6204 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:They won't do that. They might say they don't have any plans to do that

at the moment

, but they won't commit to saying the plans will definitely won't change. Because plans do change sometimes. Raids are an example of that.The devs know that. The raiders arguing against these ideas know that as well (which is why they're so vehement in the defence of their own side instead of just ignoring the threads, which they'd likely do if they really thought this train of suggestions has zero chance of being heard).

I am commenting because you and Ohoni keep bringing up the idea of a player - allow me to call him Bob - who is absolutely unable to raid because the content itself is too difficult and thus warrants nerfing even though said player pulled all levers and did everything in his or her power to get into raids. And this player is just a fabrication, that is the problem here.I know a number of those. And all of them worked their behinds far more than i did. Yet i have an armor set, and they don't.Me and Ohoni don't concentrate on those players, though. We mostly bring up players that might be able to do the content if they pulled all levers and did everything, but they would never find even a single drop of fun in this. For them it would just be a lot of extremely unpleasant experience. Because unlike some people try to claim, putting a lot of effort into raids won't magically make you like them.

@Grogba.6204 said:Websites like

https://www.gw2raidar.com

show factual prove that you don't have to play like a god or the top guilds to clear raids. The only thing you gain through the way these people play are shorter boss fights. That's it. if the energy you put into a pointless thread like this was put into the actual content you would have cleared everything multiple times by now.I have, what's your point?Me being able to do the raids doesn't change that I still think that trying to channel players into a content they dislike is a bad design goal.

@Grogba.6204 said:And besides all that, Ohoni, even

if

we had an easy mode it would

still

take 2-3 hours, perhaps longer, to clear all the raid bosses in a weekCool. It might mean lot of players would simply not to all bosses in the week. Which would slow their acquisition of legendary armor even more. I don't think this is a problem - do you?

@zealex.9410 said:Theres was a dqv quote saying we got over a million conc players?Concurrent? No, not since gw2 launch. Active players? Yes, there were numbers given out by a few mmozines few months after HoT launch.

[zealex.9410]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Vinceman.4572 said:In the forums it's the same 3-5 people advocating against raids and

even not

new or different kind of players that paints a picture of a significant player base that is unhappy with the current situation.It's not like it's not the same small group of raiders that constantly hop in to paint an exactly opposite picture of sunshine and rainbows, right?And if you haven't noticed, it's always the

new

players that start threads you complain so much about. I don't remember

ever

starting one, for example.

@Vinceman.4572 said:Furthermore some of us already made statements in a positive direction about easy modes. I'm totally not against such a mode if the resources are used reasonably.For example if the number of players is so high that easy mode raids are needed every GW2 player could at least wait 6 months between LS updates so a good portion of developers can focus on tuning down normal mode raids.Some downtime would be needed, that's true (although i don't think most of the LS devs could be used for that. Fractal ones probably could, though)

@Vinceman.4572 said:Also, if you say this mode needs rewards. Yes, okay but not the leggy armor.Could live with that. If a PvE non-raid legendary path was introduced as well. I'd be fine with it having a diffrent skin (as long as it would be unique and of legendary quality).

@Vinceman.4572 said:Develop an easy/training mode so that people can practice and try a lot until they feel comfortable to head for the actual ones. They would still be able to join a training guild/discord and start with bosses like Escort, Cairn, MO, Samarog, Trio which are in fact easy as hell. I said it before that there are events in the open world that are harder to succeed than Escort. But

no

that is refused by you.Most of the protests against such suggestions are either from Ohoni (that is serious about opening all skins to all modes, and might sometimes go way too far on some ideas, as i see it), or because the person suggesting it was clearly using some "yes, but" requirements to absolutely make sure noone would be using the mode (like "easy mode? Sure, but only if there's no rewards whatsoever" - that is the most common stipulation, by the way).

You want all or nothing.Because most of the people i argue with are willing to give me exactly nothing and not an inch more.Besides, it's not like i'm asking to make the current raids easier, or to remove them altogether, so it's hardly "all or nothing".

@Sykper.6583 said:

That’s not really a compromise. If my two kids were fighting over a toy, the compromise wouldn’t be that one gets it and the other doesn’t. The compromise would be taking turns using the same toy.

And yet giving the toy to one of the kids is exactly what you want. :)

No that's not quite right. In this instance it'll be like breaking the toy in half and that's how it'll be shared.No. In this case it would be buying a new toy for the other kid so they both can have fun. Except the first kid then starts complaining that the second toy is too similar to his one, and he doesn't want that because he wants to be the only one with it.

@Grogba.6204 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:They won't do that. They might say they don't have any plans to do that

at the moment

, but they won't commit to saying the plans will definitely won't change. Because plans do change sometimes. Raids are an example of that.The devs know that. The raiders arguing against these ideas know that as well (which is why they're so vehement in the defence of their own side instead of just ignoring the threads, which they'd likely do if they really thought this train of suggestions has zero chance of being heard).

I am commenting because you and Ohoni keep bringing up the idea of a player - allow me to call him Bob - who is absolutely unable to raid because the content itself is too difficult and thus warrants nerfing even though said player pulled all levers and did everything in his or her power to get into raids. And this player is just a fabrication, that is the problem here.I know a number of those. And all of them worked their behinds far more than i did. Yet i have an armor set, and they don't.Me and Ohoni don't concentrate on those players, though. We mostly bring up players that might be able to do the content if they pulled all levers and did everything, but they would never find even a single drop of fun in this. For them it would just be a lot of extremely unpleasant experience. Because unlike some people try to claim, putting a lot of effort into raids won't magically make you like them.

@Grogba.6204 said:Websites like

https://www.gw2raidar.com

show factual prove that you don't have to play like a god or the top guilds to clear raids. The only thing you gain through the way these people play are shorter boss fights. That's it. if the energy you put into a pointless thread like this was put into the actual content you would have cleared everything multiple times by now.I have, what's your point?Me being able to do the raids doesn't change that I still think that trying to channel players into a content they dislike is a bad design goal.

@Grogba.6204 said:And besides all that, Ohoni, even

if

we had an easy mode it would

still

take 2-3 hours, perhaps longer, to clear all the raid bosses in a weekCool. It might mean lot of players would simply not to all bosses in the week. Which would slow their acquisition of legendary armor even more. I don't think this is a problem - do you?

Actually ohoni has been very clear about opening the raid skin to other parts. When asked why not make this a thread for all the skins the response was either "idc or its irrelevant".

What he considers something that he would go for is not allowed to be in a part of the game. Anything else doesnt matter.

[Ohoni.6057]

@Feanor.2358 said:Just imagine what kind of reaction would I get if I sent Ferrari a complaint that their cars are way too expensive and I feel excluded because I can't drive one. But I really, really want to. Would anyone take me seriously? I seriously doubt that.

But don't you understand what would make that a ridiculous request? It's not that you want the Ferrari or that you're asking for it, it's that Ferrari's have high component and manufacturing costs which limit how many they can reasonably produce. Further, you are in no way a Ferrari customer, and it would harm their bottom line if they complied with your request. None of that is true here.

In this case, it is GW2 customers, who are asking the makers of GW2 for a feature that would make their gameplay experience better, a feature that would in no way harm them to provide.

@"Grogba.6204" said:I am commenting because you and Ohoni keep bringing up the idea of a player - allow me to call him Bob - who is absolutely unable to raid because the content itself is too difficult and thus warrants nerfing even though said player pulled all levers and did everything in his or her power to get into raids. And this player is just a fabrication, that is the problem here.

Bob does exist, but it doesn't entirely have to be about him, it's also about the player who might be theoretically capable of clearing the current raids, but does not want to, because the sort of experience the current raids provide would be extremely frustrating and uncomfortable to him. And he matters too, because this is a game, not a job, and it shouldn't be about "what you are capable of enduring," it should be about "what you enjoy doing." If players do not enjoy the design of the current raids, then they should have an alternative option available on that basis alone.

And besides all that, Ohoni, even if we had an easy mode it would still take 2-3 hours, perhaps longer, to clear all the raid bosses in a week so yes, if you cannot bring up the time to do that then Raids aren't suitable for you or Bob.

Perhaps, but in that case, either the player could still take that time, and enjoy the experience more because it was a more palatable easy mode, or the player would be able to pick and choose a few encounters to do each week, and thus progress at a slower rate than he possibly could, but at least he would be progressing.

The most time consuming thing is waiting for players, be it to fill up the squad or for everyone to press ready and the only thing that would prevent that would be nerfing the fights so hard that you finish them pressing one with random gear drooling over your keyboard.

They wouldn't be made quite that simple, but the goal is to make them easy enough to complete that you could fill a team first-come, first-serve, so most times of day you should be able to find ten people to tackle an encounter within a few minutes.

@"Miellyn.6847" said:Many of the commenters here agreed partly with your ideas in the past and proposed some changes. But you dismissed everything if it looked like you wouldn't get everything you want.

All I'm asking for is that two criteria are met, 1. That it provide an easier version of the raid that can be completed at a casual difficulty level comparable to the rest of the game's content, and 2. that it provide a path to the same rewards that are available in the current raids. Nothing more than that. I have my own ideas about the best way to accomplish those, but I'm very flexible on that. Now if someone claims to be "supportive" while insisting that one or both of those items must be completely off the table, then I'm sorry, but that's just being disingenuous at best.

You don't want any compromise where you have to give up some of the things you want. That's not how compromises work.

The compromise is that the easy mode would be in addition to the existing raids. The non-compromise situation is that the existing raids would be the ones nerfed into being the easy mode versions, as they did with various other content in the game. Don't claim that I'm not compromising simply because my starting position was already a fair compromise. I've been trying to be reasonable from the start here.

You had the chance for a real discussion and you blew it with your selfishness.

Ok, I'm willing to listen to your advice here. Let's say we start from scratch. What tack should I take here to achieve my point 1 and 2 above, without "blowing it?"

[Tyson.5160]

Well if they continue to release wings with 3 bosses, you’ll have 26 LI per week by Raid wing 8, which would make your first armor set done in a month and a half, if you manage to do full clears. If they push to 10 raid wings with the same 3 boss set up your looking at 32 a week. Now your looking at a just over a month for your first set of armor. They could in theory stop with raid wings at that point and focus on something else. Given how often they pump out raid wings, probably looking at 2 1/2 to 3 years to have 10 raid wings available in total.

Hell they could add a hard mode to the current dungeons and give that content some love.