Do raids need easy/normal/hard difficulty mode? [merged]

[Tyson.5160]

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:Just imagine what kind of reaction would I get if I sent Ferrari a complaint that their cars are way too expensive and I feel excluded because I can't drive one. But I really, really want to. Would anyone take me seriously? I seriously doubt that.

But don't you understand

what

would make that a ridiculous request? It's not that you want the Ferrari or that you're asking for it, it's that Ferrari's have high component and manufacturing costs which limit how many they can reasonably produce. Further, you are in no way a Ferrari customer, and it would harm their bottom line if they complied with your request. None of that is true here.

In this case, it is GW2 customers, who are asking the makers of GW2 for a feature that would make their gameplay experience better, a feature that would in no way harm them to provide.

@"Grogba.6204" said:I am commenting because you and Ohoni keep bringing up the idea of a player - allow me to call him Bob - who is absolutely unable to raid because the content itself is too difficult and thus warrants nerfing even though said player pulled all levers and did everything in his or her power to get into raids. And this player is just a fabrication, that is the problem here.

Bob does exist, but it doesn't entirely have to be about him, it's also about the player who might be

theoretically

capable of clearing the current raids, but

does not want to,

because the sort of experience the current raids provide would be extremely frustrating and uncomfortable to him. And

he matters too,

because this is a

game,

not a

job,

and it shouldn't be about

"what you are capable of enduring,"

it should be about "what you

enjoy

doing." If players do not enjoy the design of the current raids, then they should have an alternative option available on that basis alone.

And besides all that, Ohoni, even

if

we had an easy mode it would

still

take 2-3 hours, perhaps longer, to clear all the raid bosses in a week so yes, if you cannot bring up the time to do that then Raids aren't suitable for you or Bob.

Perhaps, but in that case, either the player could still take that time, and enjoy the experience more because it was a more palatable easy mode,

or

the player would be able to pick and choose a few encounters to do each week, and thus progress at a slower rate than he possibly could, but at least he would be progressing.

The most time consuming thing is waiting for players, be it to fill up the squad or for everyone to press ready and the only thing that would prevent that would be nerfing the fights so hard that you finish them pressing one with random gear drooling over your keyboard.

They wouldn't be made quite that simple, but the goal is to make them easy enough to complete that you could fill a team first-come, first-serve, so most times of day you should be able to find ten people to tackle an encounter within a few minutes.

@"Miellyn.6847" said:Many of the commenters here agreed partly with your ideas in the past and proposed some changes. But you dismissed everything if it looked like you wouldn't get everything you want.

All I'm asking for is that two criteria are met, 1. That it provide an easier version of the raid that can be completed at a casual difficulty level comparable to the rest of the game's content, and 2. that it provide a path to the same rewards that are available in the current raids. Nothing more than that. I have my own ideas about the best way to accomplish those, but I'm very flexible on that. Now if someone

claims

to be "supportive" while insisting that one or both of those items must be completely off the table, then I'm sorry, but that's just being disingenuous at best.

You don't want any compromise where you have to give up some of the things you want. That's not how compromises work.

The compromise is that the easy mode would be

in addition to

the existing raids. The non-compromise situation is that the existing raids would be the ones nerfed into being the easy mode versions, as they did with various other content in the game. Don't claim that I'm not compromising simply because my starting position was already a fair compromise. I've been trying to be reasonable from the start here.

You had the chance for a real discussion and you blew it with your selfishness.

Ok, I'm willing to listen to your advice here. Let's say we start from scratch. What tack should I take here to achieve my point 1 and 2 above, without "blowing it?"

Quick question if there was an alternate way to get the armor and not step foot in the Raids, is that a possibility?

Been brainstorming some ideas.

[Brynioch.1873]

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@"Miellyn.6847" said:Many of the commenters here agreed partly with your ideas in the past and proposed some changes. But you dismissed everything if it looked like you wouldn't get everything you want.

All I'm asking for is that two criteria are met, 1. That it provide an easier version of the raid that can be completed at a casual difficulty level comparable to the rest of the game's content, and 2. that it provide a path to the same rewards that are available in the current raids. Nothing more than that. I have my own ideas about the best way to accomplish those, but I'm very flexible on that. Now if someone

claims

to be "supportive" while insisting that one or both of those items must be completely off the table, then I'm sorry, but that's just being disingenuous at best.

You don't want any compromise where you have to give up some of the things you want. That's not how compromises work.

The compromise is that the easy mode would be

in addition to

the existing raids. The non-compromise situation is that the existing raids would be the ones nerfed into being the easy mode versions, as they did with various other content in the game. Don't claim that I'm not compromising simply because my starting position was already a fair compromise. I've been trying to be reasonable from the start here.

You had the chance for a real discussion and you blew it with your selfishness.

Ok, I'm willing to listen to your advice here. Let's say we start from scratch. What tack should I take here to achieve my point 1 and 2 above, without "blowing it?"

If easy modes work like everyone here proposes (as a training that prepares you for normal mode) there is no need for an alternative path as you can join experienced groups afterwards. Where you can get the rewards. And the ressources for this will get substracted from the LS teams not the raid team.

If you can get the rewards in another path there is no need for an easy mode. We don't need a tourist mode ala WoW and as you said earlier if people are interested in it they will play it.

This is what a compromise looks like. Getting both is a classic case of wanting your cake and eat it too.

@Tyson.5160 said:Well if they continue to release wings with 3 bosses, you’ll have 26 LI per week by Raid wing 8, which would make your first armor set done in a month and a half, if you manage to do full clears. If they push to 10 raid wings with the same 3 boss set up your looking at 32 a week. Now your looking at a just over a month for your first set of armor. They could in theory stop with raid wings at that point and focus on something else. Given how often they pump out raid wings, probably looking at 2 1/2 to 3 years to have 10 raid wings available in total.

Hell they could add a hard mode to the current dungeons and give that content some love.

As fractals are the current dungeons, this already happend.

The release dungeons are dead and will never get any attention besides game breaking bugs.

[Tyson.5160]

@Miellyn.6847 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Miellyn.6847 said:Many of the commenters here agreed partly with your ideas in the past and proposed some changes. But you dismissed everything if it looked like you wouldn't get everything you want.

All I'm asking for is that two criteria are met, 1. That it provide an easier version of the raid that can be completed at a casual difficulty level comparable to the rest of the game's content, and 2. that it provide a path to the same rewards that are available in the current raids. Nothing more than that. I have my own ideas about the best way to accomplish those, but I'm very flexible on that. Now if someone

claims

to be "supportive" while insisting that one or both of those items must be completely off the table, then I'm sorry, but that's just being disingenuous at best.

You don't want any compromise where you have to give up some of the things you want. That's not how compromises work.

The compromise is that the easy mode would be

in addition to

the existing raids. The non-compromise situation is that the existing raids would be the ones nerfed into being the easy mode versions, as they did with various other content in the game. Don't claim that I'm not compromising simply because my starting position was already a fair compromise. I've been trying to be reasonable from the start here.

You had the chance for a real discussion and you blew it with your selfishness.

Ok, I'm willing to listen to your advice here. Let's say we start from scratch. What tack should I take here to achieve my point 1 and 2 above, without "blowing it?"

If easy modes work like everyone here proposes (as a training that prepares you for normal mode) there is no need for an alternative path as you can join experienced groups afterwards. Where you can get the rewards. And the ressources for this will get substracted from the LS teams not the raid team.

@Tyson.5160 said:Well if they continue to release wings with 3 bosses, you’ll have 26 LI per week by Raid wing 8, which would make your first armor set done in a month and a half, if you manage to do full clears. If they push to 10 raid wings with the same 3 boss set up your looking at 32 a week. Now your looking at a just over a month for your first set of armor. They could in theory stop with raid wings at that point and focus on something else. Given how often they pump out raid wings, probably looking at 2 1/2 to 3 years to have 10 raid wings available in total.

Hell they could add a hard mode to the current dungeons and give that content some love.

As fractals are the current dungeons, this already happend.

The release dungeons are dead and will never get any attention besides game breaking bugs.

Have to be careful with the word never. ArenaNet doesn’t use it and neither should you

[Eramonster.2718]

@Tyson.5160

Quick question if there was an alternate way to get the armor and not step foot in the Raids, is that a possibility?

Been brainstorming some ideas.

Nope. It's actually the main reason to this OP discussion tbh. Most if not all the reasoning made is to support the idea of creating an alternate way to farm/ accessing the shinnies.

E.g. Why only higher tier fractals have chance on ascended armors and none for lower tiers. Suggest maybe lower % drop chance in lower fracs etc. for progression reasons etc. Or Ascended armor access with dungeon tokens(easier content), cost a sum of tokens, slowly but surely method for asc armors outside of fractals.

[Ohoni.6057]

@"Tyson.5160" said:Quick question if there was an alternate way to get the armor and not step foot in the Raids, is that a possibility?

Well, I have two interests in this. One, I do want the Envoy skins. Two, I also want to be able to do the raid encounters, without the "raid" elements, without that "fail until you beat it" "trainer group" "meta" nonsense. So if they made the armor available elsewhere? Sure, that'd be great. I'd still want to see an easy mode of the raids, but a significant chunk of my reason for that would be removed.

This isn't the first time I've said that, btw, I've been clear about my weighted priorities.

@"Miellyn.6847" said:If easy modes work like everyone here proposes (as a training that prepares you for normal mode) there is no need for an alternative path as you can join experienced groups afterwards.

I want easy mode to function as a training mode. I do NOT, however, believe that easy mode should only function as a training mode.

Players who want to use it for training, with the eventual goal of migrating to hard mode, should be able to do that, and it should carry value for them.

Players who have no interest in hard mode should be able to be fully satisfied with easy mode. It should not seem like a hollowed out "training mode" to them, it should be a feature complete element that can stand on its own. It is a mode of play for gamers with a different mindset than those that enjoy the current raids. It should not be viewed as a "second hand" version of the raids, it should be viewed as a true alternative.

And the ressources for this will get substracted from the LS teams not the raid team.

I'm sure they can work out the development teams involved. Keep in mind that a lot of the resources in developing raids is in the actual content, which involves the same artists that are already part of the LW teams.

This is what a compromise looks like. Getting both is a classic case of wanting your cake and eat it too.

What, exactly, do you see me as "getting" from your scenario, because from over here it looks like I'd be getting nothing that I wanted. It's basically like resolving a child custody dispute by handing one of the parents a doll, and calling that a "compromise."

@Eramonster.2718 said:E.g. Why only higher tier fractals have chance on ascended armors and none for lower tiers. Suggest maybe lower % drop chance in lower fracs etc. for progression reasons etc. Or Ascended armor access with dungeon tokens(easier content), cost a sum of tokens, slowly but surely method for asc armors outside of fractals.

That's a bit of a flawed argument though, since any player can make their own Ascended armor (or find it elsewhere in the game) without entering a single Fractal. So far, the same is not true of Envoy armor.

[Eramonster.2718]

The scenario isn't the point :smile: . Just happen to pick fractals instead of raid since there isn't a lower tier raid(easy mode) in game to set as an example.

Said this before, it's more productive if a specific encounter is mentioned to be worked on. Why do players find it hard? and how to overcome it. Or to make it easy mode? (How?). I believe most players that did raid find the bosses are fine as it is.

It is always hard fighting blind, not knowing the enemy. Players new to raids in raid training are making kills (even if they're not in a full meta squad) but new raiders find it difficult to do so in some PuG. Ever thought why? Raid have problems, but I don't think easy mode is the solution or related to it.

[Ohoni.6057]

@"Eramonster.2718" said:The scenario isn't the point :smile: . Just happen to pick fractals instead of raid since there isn't a lower tier raid(easy mode) in game to set as an example.

Said this before, it's more productive if a specific encounter is mentioned to be worked on. Why do players find it hard? and how to overcome it. Or to make it easy mode? (How?). I believe most players that did raid find the bosses are fine as it is.

It is always hard fighting blind, not knowing the enemy. Players new to raids in raid training are making kills (even if they're not in a full meta squad) but new raiders find it difficult to do so in some PuG. Ever thought why? Raid have problems, but I don't think easy mode is the solution or related to it.

There are obviously SOME players for whom the raids are currently perfectly fine. There's nothing wrong with that, and the current raids should be left intact for those players. Different players are DIFFERENT, however, one side does NOT fit all.

The point is not to figure out a way to "make the non-raiders into raiders." The point is to ACCEPT that the non-raiders will never embrace the current raids, that there is no process to get them from here to there, and to instead make a version that is what THEY want, which may have absolutely nothing at all to do with the version that current raiders enjoy.

Think of it like a staircase. A standard architectural stair is seven inches high, which has been deemed appropriate for most people. But imagine that a staircase had stairs twelve inches high. A person of over, say, six foot four or so, probably would have no issue with that, they could climb that staircase easily enough, easier perhaps than they could a seven inch step. To a person five feet tall, on the other hand, they would have some real difficulty getting their legs up high enough to cross that stair, it would be a serious chore. Now maybe some would relish that option, would enjoy taking essentially two steps at a time, but plenty of others would just seriously hate that straircase.

The question would not be "how can we convince those people to like that staircase," the question is, "how can we provide a staircase that they could enjoy."

If you keep coming at this question from the angle of "how to convert people to our way of thinking," then you're missing the point entirely.

[Tyson.5160]

So I was trying to kill as many birds with one stone here. So just hear me out for a second as this kinda a work in progress. Let’s say there was a way to obtain just Envoy skins, not the stat swap, which provides the true utility, but just the skins, much like the achievement skins.

Ok so, leave the Raid situation as it is, that should get a lot of people off my back right there. Instead add Raid like bosses to the dungeons. Different currency separate from LI. LI won’t exist here. Use the current setting for the dungeons, let’s take caduceus manor. When you enter, you get story explorer or boss. Make it instance as it is already, but make the area smaller and in a wide location. Maybe in one of the courtyards or by that one barn area. So the boss could reuse a skin from the dungeon, like perhaps the centaur or the big robot boss from the story mission. Now give this boss attacks that some of the raid bosses use, so is similar but not identical. That way if players go into raiding they are familiar with some of these raid mechanics. Possibly bridge the gap in a better way .Not sure if you would do I boss per dungeon or not. Boss would give a currency to be exchanged for the skin or something of that nature.

So in review, Raids don’t change, LI isn’t an issue and people can have the Envoy skin.

[Ohoni.6057]

@Tyson.5160 said:So I was trying to kill as many birds with one stone here. So just hear me out for a second as this kinda a work in progress. Let’s say there was a way to obtain just Envoy skins, not the stat swap, which provides the true utility, but just the skins, much like the achievement skins.

Ok so, leave the Raid situation as it is, that should get a lot of people off my back right there. Instead add Raid like bosses to the dungeons. Different currency separate from LI. LI won’t exist here. Use the current setting for the dungeons, let’s take caduceus manor. When you enter, you get story explorer or boss. Make it instance as it is already, but make the area smaller and in a wide location. Maybe in one of the courtyards or by that one barn area. So the boss could reuse a skin from the dungeon, like perhaps the centaur or the big robot boss from the story mission. Now give this boss attacks that some of the raid bosses use, so is similar but not identical. That way if players go into raiding they are familiar with some of these raid mechanics. Possibly bridge the gap in a better way .Not sure if you would do I boss per dungeon or not. Boss would give a currency to be exchanged for the skin or something of that nature.

So in review, Raids don’t change, LI isn’t an issue and people can have the Envoy skin.

Eh, Envoy skin is good, and the new boss fights might be interesting, but that sounds a lot harder to implement than an easy mode, and it leaves out experiencing the zones/stories themselves. I'd want to be able to participate in the actual content of the raid maps, not to just have disconnects boss fights in a generic map.

[Astralporing.1957]

@Eramonster.2718 said:The scenario isn't the point :smile: . Just happen to pick fractals instead of raid since there isn't a lower tier raid(easy mode) in game to set as an example.

Said this before, it's more productive if a specific encounter is mentioned to be worked on. Why do players find it hard? and how to overcome it. Or to make it easy mode?There were some cases when such examples were made. Problem is, the other side is not interested in discussion about that. Sometimes they ask to make specific examples ("to make the discussion constructive") but whenever that happens, the discussion gets shifted to something else very fast.

@Eramonster.2718 said:(How?). I believe most players that did raid find the bosses are fine as it is."Did raid", or "are raiding"? Because obviously among the people that are doing the content the percentage of those that find it okay is going to be much higher than among those that tried but gave up.

@Eramonster.2718 said:It is always hard fighting blind, not knowing the enemy. Players new to raids in raid training are making kills (even if they're not in a full meta squad) but new raiders find it difficult to do so in some PuG. Ever thought why?Training runs generally have some people that go out of their way to correct mistakes of others. The weaker players simply get carried. PUG groups on the other hand expect everyone to pull their own weight, and if one person fails, everything can easily come apartAlso, there's the factor where, if training group consists only of those weaker players, it will keep failing until it starts shedding people, and either replaces some with better players, or everyone just gives up on it completely.

Everyone can get carried. Not everyone can actually play on the level necessary to finish the encounter. Fortunately, raid mechanics do not require for everyone to be on that level, which gives some people the illusion that raids are much easier than they really are.

[Vinceman.4572]

@"Astralporing.1957" said:There were some cases when such examples were made. Problem is, the other side is not interested in discussion about that. Sometimes they ask to make specific examples ("to make the discussion constructive") but whenever that happens, the discussion gets shifted to something else very fast.

Nah, the issue here was that the examples were really bad thought-out. I looked back at some encounters and it's not very easy to balance the actual raids towards a version Ohoni prefers. He wants to hop into the content with 9 other random players via lfg and beat it because he doesn't like the structure of long organizing, wiping and failing. That's is his good right.If you have a look at all the bosses with tanking mechanic which are VG, Gorse, KC, Xera, MO, Deimos, SH, Statues and Dhuum you kinda have to change them dramatically because you cannot expect a random player joining and being the tank although he has zero clue about what's going on. So, keeping the tanking mechanic you need at least one player knowing to tank. If you say, well don't let mechanics be as hard for example on VG colored fields ticking very softly, greens do not hurt that much etc. you won't be in the need to have a tank. But then yeah, people will outheal things, ignore any mechanic at all because it would easily be doable and in the end you have a completely different encounter than the real Vale Guardian because the tanking mechanic is one of the most crucial ones at VG that leads to many wipes if not executed properly. In the end without tanking it might be ok for those who are aiming for the shinies alone but it wouldn't help players getting into the actual raids. The only thing they know about those is the model of the boss, the area and some flashy effects.That's why we keep repeating that those bosses were made like they are. The interaction of mechanics only makes sense in the actual scenario otherwise it would turn bosses into pure dps golems. I mean MO is such an example. It's a boss where 7-8 players of the squad just hugging at it and do dps/buffing. Even in beginner/inexperienced groups you only have one player knowing how to play the tanking pattern ("claim"), a dispel guy using a special action key every 15 or 20s (i don't excactly know the cd but it's irrelevant in this discussion) and in low dps groups the player with protection. All the others really have no task except buffing/dpsing and not stepping into the big yellow fields or better said just following the claimer to survive. This encounter couldn't be made easier as a statue that does nothing in a time span over 10 minutes while you just lower it's hit points. You can compare it to the cart at the end of SAB W1Z3. I honestly can't imagine that it serves any purpose at all.

[Oglaf.1074]

The problem isn't that Raids are too hard. The problem is the catch 22 situation that occurs when you want to start Raiding: You need to already have LI to be allowed into a squad to earn your very first LI.

Adress this situation and Raids are perfectly fine.

[Vinceman.4572]

@Oglaf.1074 said:The problem isn't that Raids are too hard. The problem is the catch 22 situation that occurs when you want to start Raiding: You need to already have LI to be allowed into a squad to earn your very first LI.

Only if you want to join an experienced group as a beginner and hope for a hard carry. There are several trainings runs/groups/initiatives/discords where player not only find like-minded persons but actually get boss kills on their first tries. Something that veteran raiders haven't achieved that quickly when they started to raid in the past!

[Oglaf.1074]

@Vinceman.4572 said:

@Oglaf.1074 said:The problem isn't that Raids are too hard. The problem is the catch 22 situation that occurs when you want to start Raiding: You need to already have LI to be allowed into a squad to earn your very first LI.

Only if you want to join an experienced group as a beginner and hope for a hard carry.

That's an awful strawman and you know it. It is not about being friggin' carried, it is about the overall catch 22 involved in getting started with raiding. If Anet took action and made getting started a bit smoother, then the overall feeling of Raids being exclusionary and elitist would go away.

As I said, raiding isn't hard. Getting started raiding is.

[zealex.9410]

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:Just imagine what kind of reaction would I get if I sent Ferrari a complaint that their cars are way too expensive and I feel excluded because I can't drive one. But I really, really want to. Would anyone take me seriously? I seriously doubt that.

But don't you understand

what

would make that a ridiculous request? It's not that you want the Ferrari or that you're asking for it, it's that Ferrari's have high component and manufacturing costs which limit how many they can reasonably produce. Further, you are in no way a Ferrari customer, and it would harm their bottom line if they complied with your request. None of that is true here.

In this case, it is GW2 customers, who are asking the makers of GW2 for a feature that would make their gameplay experience better, a feature that would in no way harm them to provide.

@"Grogba.6204" said:I am commenting because you and Ohoni keep bringing up the idea of a player - allow me to call him Bob - who is absolutely unable to raid because the content itself is too difficult and thus warrants nerfing even though said player pulled all levers and did everything in his or her power to get into raids. And this player is just a fabrication, that is the problem here.

Bob does exist, but it doesn't entirely have to be about him, it's also about the player who might be

theoretically

capable of clearing the current raids, but

does not want to,

because the sort of experience the current raids provide would be extremely frustrating and uncomfortable to him. And

he matters too,

because this is a

game,

not a

job,

and it shouldn't be about

"what you are capable of enduring,"

it should be about "what you

enjoy

doing." If players do not enjoy the design of the current raids, then they should have an alternative option available on that basis alone.

And besides all that, Ohoni, even

if

we had an easy mode it would

still

take 2-3 hours, perhaps longer, to clear all the raid bosses in a week so yes, if you cannot bring up the time to do that then Raids aren't suitable for you or Bob.

Perhaps, but in that case, either the player could still take that time, and enjoy the experience more because it was a more palatable easy mode,

or

the player would be able to pick and choose a few encounters to do each week, and thus progress at a slower rate than he possibly could, but at least he would be progressing.

The most time consuming thing is waiting for players, be it to fill up the squad or for everyone to press ready and the only thing that would prevent that would be nerfing the fights so hard that you finish them pressing one with random gear drooling over your keyboard.

They wouldn't be made quite that simple, but the goal is to make them easy enough to complete that you could fill a team first-come, first-serve, so most times of day you should be able to find ten people to tackle an encounter within a few minutes.

@"Miellyn.6847" said:Many of the commenters here agreed partly with your ideas in the past and proposed some changes. But you dismissed everything if it looked like you wouldn't get everything you want.

All I'm asking for is that two criteria are met, 1. That it provide an easier version of the raid that can be completed at a casual difficulty level comparable to the rest of the game's content, and 2. that it provide a path to the same rewards that are available in the current raids. Nothing more than that. I have my own ideas about the best way to accomplish those, but I'm very flexible on that. Now if someone

claims

to be "supportive" while insisting that one or both of those items must be completely off the table, then I'm sorry, but that's just being disingenuous at best.

You don't want any compromise where you have to give up some of the things you want. That's not how compromises work.

The compromise is that the easy mode would be

in addition to

the existing raids. The non-compromise situation is that the existing raids would be the ones nerfed into being the easy mode versions, as they did with various other content in the game. Don't claim that I'm not compromising simply because my starting position was already a fair compromise. I've been trying to be reasonable from the start here.

You had the chance for a real discussion and you blew it with your selfishness.

Ok, I'm willing to listen to your advice here. Let's say we start from scratch. What tack should I take here to achieve my point 1 and 2 above, without "blowing it?"

Quick question if there was an alternate way to get the armor and not step foot in the Raids, is that a possibility?

Been brainstorming some ideas.

But the 3 boss settup isnt entirelly accurate. Event encounters reward li as well amd w1,4 and 5 have in total 4 li each iirc.

[Vinceman.4572]

@Oglaf.1074 said:

@Vinceman.4572 said:

@Oglaf.1074 said:The problem isn't that Raids are too hard. The problem is the catch 22 situation that occurs when you want to start Raiding: You need to already have LI to be allowed into a squad to earn your very first LI.

Only if you want to join an experienced group as a beginner and hope for a hard carry.

That's an awful strawman and you know it. It is not about being friggin' carried, it is about the overall catch 22 involved in getting started with raiding. If Anet took action and made getting started a bit smoother, then the overall feeling of Raids being exclusionary and elitist would go away.

As I said, raiding isn't hard. Getting started raiding is.

No, it's not a strawman. You can get in if you want to. LFG is NOT the way you want to go in the first place when starting with raiding. That's a thing people have to keep in mind and stop being stubborn. I know a lot of folks that got into raids over the last months and they still are not good in terms of skill, dps rotation and boss mechanics. Could it be easier to assemble groups or better: guild advertisement options? Of course! But the barrier isn't insuperable that we are so highly in a need of Anet taking care at all costs. People were organizing Tequatl via community sites, Triple Trouble is also organized with TS/Discord and community sites. The tools are there and known to these people, they just have to use them.

[Astralporing.1957]

@Oglaf.1074 said:The problem isn't that Raids are too hard. The problem is the catch 22 situation that occurs when you want to start Raiding: You need to already have LI to be allowed into a squad to earn your very first LI.

Adress this situation and Raids are perfectly fine.You can't address it. The encounters are hard enough that people pugging them will want to ensure as much as possible they are grouped with people that don't need to learn the encounter. Training is so annoying and takes so much time, that people that are past that phase don't want to waste time repeating it. When doing normal weekly clears they will not want to break new players in. Better kick such a person, and find someone better. And you can't change that attitude.

So, there's only two ways to address it: either make the encounter easy enough being too strict with group forming is just a waste of time, or create another avenue of getting the experience that is widely recognized. That other avenue would have to be easier (so it won't share the same grouping problem), but would need to be similar enough that raiders might think it will do. And that's exactly the easymode lot of peopl are asking for (although to fulfill the requirements it would have to be more difficult than Ohoni might want).

Notice that simply removing KPs, or making them and LIs unlinkable would not help. People would simply start asking for other things, like legendary armor and other boss-specific drops (like dhuum scythe).

[zealex.9410]

@Oglaf.1074 said:

@Vinceman.4572 said:

@Oglaf.1074 said:The problem isn't that Raids are too hard. The problem is the catch 22 situation that occurs when you want to start Raiding: You need to already have LI to be allowed into a squad to earn your very first LI.

Only if you want to join an experienced group as a beginner and hope for a hard carry.

That's an awful strawman and you know it. It is not about being friggin' carried, it is about the overall catch 22 involved in getting started with raiding. If Anet took action and made getting started a bit smoother, then the overall feeling of Raids being exclusionary and elitist would go away.

As I said, raiding isn't hard. Getting started raiding is.

No hes 100% correct. In every raidimg mmo i played theres been groups that simply want to do the content fast eland efficiently and they cant be arsed to carry ppl.

Thats find its their own right they started from zero i should too. There are groups that might puah fir the first clears and have low requirements or training guilds that take you in for nothing.

When you astart out you cant be picky, thats not a problem with raids how how raids have besn since forever.

And like lol why wouldnt u want to join a 250 group? In ALOT of cases these groups are absolutelly terrible and you are better off just not joining.

[Oglaf.1074]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Oglaf.1074 said:The problem isn't that Raids are too hard. The problem is the catch 22 situation that occurs when you want to start Raiding: You need to already have LI to be allowed into a squad to earn your very first LI.

Adress this situation and Raids are perfectly fine.You can't address it. The encounters are hard enough that people pugging them will want to ensure as much as possible they are grouped with people that don't need to learn the encounter. Training is so annoying and takes so much time, that people doing normal weekly clears will never want to break new players in. Better kick such a person, and find someone better. And you can't change that attitude.

So, there's only two ways to address it: either make the encounter easy enough being too strict with group forming is just a waste of time, or create another avenue of getting the experience that is widely recognized.

Again it is not about friggin' difficulty but accessability.

[Grogba.6204]

@"zealex.9410" said:And like lol why wouldnt u want to join a 250 group? In ALOT of cases these groups are absolutelly terrible and you are better off just not joining.

Guilty as charged. If I have to fill up we tend to ask for 200-250 LI, too (And we know damn well that some of the players we got that way obviously faked the LI count in the first place).

The problem is just: There is no way to know what you get. We have no way to screen players! I might as well just ask "[boss] lf [role]" and either get a great player or someone getting carried. Chances are, though, that in case of the former (demanding LI) the players joining are a lot more invested and that the very same players avoid LFGs without requirements like the plague (If they don't demand LI they must clearly suck!) Same goes for the boss specific kill proof. Ultimately, though, it hardly matters (for us) what we get via LFG as we make sure to have the important roles covered:

• Tank (if necessary)
• Chronos
• Healer/Druids
• Mechanics (Cannons, Shrooms, etc.)

Meaning we only need DPS if we need someone. Sure, we could also clear the majority of encounters undermanned but even a teribble DPS is still a DPS :no_mouth:

[Astralporing.1957]

@Oglaf.1074 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Oglaf.1074 said:The problem isn't that Raids are too hard. The problem is the catch 22 situation that occurs when you want to start Raiding: You need to already have LI to be allowed into a squad to earn your very first LI.

Adress this situation and Raids are perfectly fine.You can't address it. The encounters are hard enough that people pugging them will want to ensure as much as possible they are grouped with people that don't need to learn the encounter. Training is so annoying and takes so much time, that people doing normal weekly clears will never want to break new players in. Better kick such a person, and find someone better. And you can't change that attitude.

So, there's only two ways to address it: either make the encounter easy enough being too strict with group forming is just a waste of time, or create another avenue of getting the experience that is widely recognized.

Again it is

not

about friggin' difficulty but

accessability

.

Sure, but that accessability is a direct consequence of difficulty.

When that new player being worse than you thought makes the run less smooth and take a bit longer, you may grumble but ensuring it won't happen by making sure those you group with are already experienced enough is far less important than when that new player being worse than what you were looking for makes you keep wiping repeatedly on every encounter. Sure, a single player usually can't do that, but when you're pugging, you aren't grouping with only one other person, but with 9 of them. So, better make as certain as possible they won't bring you down.

It's that (completely reasonable, btw) attitude that limits accessibility. Not LIs or KPs. Pugs don't want to group with new players, because a new player is an unknown random element that is likely to be a potential problem. And raids are difficult enough that it's better to minimize any chances of potential unexpected problems as much as possible.

So, accessibility is restricted by player behaviour, but that player behaviour is a consequence of encounter mechanics.

[Feanor.2358]

@Grogba.6204 said:

@"zealex.9410" said:And like lol why wouldnt u want to join a 250 group? In ALOT of cases these groups are absolutelly terrible and you are better off just not joining.

Guilty as charged. If I have to fill up we tend to ask for 200-250 LI, too (And we know kitten well that some of the players we got that way obviously faked the LI count in the first place).

The problem is just: There is no way to know what you get. We have no way to screen players! I might as well just ask "[boss] lf [role]" and either get a great player or someone getting carried. Chances are, though, that in case of the former (demanding LI) the players joining are a lot more invested and that the very same players avoid LFGs without requirements like the plague (If they don't demand LI they must clearly suck!) Same goes for the boss specific kill proof. Ultimately, though, it hardly matters (for us) what we get via LFG as we make sure to have the important roles covered:

• Tank (if necessary)
• Chronos
• Healer/Druids
• Mechanics (Cannons, Shrooms, etc.)

Meaning we only need DPS if we need someone. Sure, we could also clear the majority of encounters undermanned but even a teribble DPS is

still

a DPS :no_mouth:

... until that time when they screw up a mechanic in addition to being a terrible dps. :)

[zealex.9410]

@Grogba.6204 said:

@"zealex.9410" said:And like lol why wouldnt u want to join a 250 group? In ALOT of cases these groups are absolutelly terrible and you are better off just not joining.

Guilty as charged. If I have to fill up we tend to ask for 200-250 LI, too (And we know kitten well that some of the players we got that way obviously faked the LI count in the first place).

The problem is just: There is no way to know what you get. We have no way to screen players! I might as well just ask "[boss] lf [role]" and either get a great player or someone getting carried. Chances are, though, that in case of the former (demanding LI) the players joining are a lot more invested and that the very same players avoid LFGs without requirements like the plague (If they don't demand LI they must clearly suck!) Same goes for the boss specific kill proof. Ultimately, though, it hardly matters (for us) what we get via LFG as we make sure to have the important roles covered:

• Tank (if necessary)
• Chronos
• Healer/Druids
• Mechanics (Cannons, Shrooms, etc.)

Meaning we only need DPS if we need someone. Sure, we could also clear the majority of encounters undermanned but even a teribble DPS is

still

a DPS :no_mouth:

I was monstly refering to that alot of the high li groups can and might be groups formed by a guy or 2 looking to get carried. Iv seen it in many mmos and in gw2.

[Grogba.6204]

@Feanor.2358 said:... until that time when they screw up a mechanic in addition to being a terrible dps. :)

Naturally, Sloth, Matthias, Deimos, Xera and Dhuum can still be a gamble (until the pug dies in poison, gets sacrificed or fell off the plattform, then he can't break anything anymore :tongue: )

[Tyson.5160]

@zealex.9410 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:Just imagine what kind of reaction would I get if I sent Ferrari a complaint that their cars are way too expensive and I feel excluded because I can't drive one. But I really, really want to. Would anyone take me seriously? I seriously doubt that.

But don't you understand

what

would make that a ridiculous request? It's not that you want the Ferrari or that you're asking for it, it's that Ferrari's have high component and manufacturing costs which limit how many they can reasonably produce. Further, you are in no way a Ferrari customer, and it would harm their bottom line if they complied with your request. None of that is true here.

In this case, it is GW2 customers, who are asking the makers of GW2 for a feature that would make their gameplay experience better, a feature that would in no way harm them to provide.

@"Grogba.6204" said:I am commenting because you and Ohoni keep bringing up the idea of a player - allow me to call him Bob - who is absolutely unable to raid because the content itself is too difficult and thus warrants nerfing even though said player pulled all levers and did everything in his or her power to get into raids. And this player is just a fabrication, that is the problem here.

Bob does exist, but it doesn't entirely have to be about him, it's also about the player who might be

theoretically

capable of clearing the current raids, but

does not want to,

because the sort of experience the current raids provide would be extremely frustrating and uncomfortable to him. And

he matters too,

because this is a

game,

not a

job,

and it shouldn't be about

"what you are capable of enduring,"

it should be about "what you

enjoy

doing." If players do not enjoy the design of the current raids, then they should have an alternative option available on that basis alone.

And besides all that, Ohoni, even

if

we had an easy mode it would

still

take 2-3 hours, perhaps longer, to clear all the raid bosses in a week so yes, if you cannot bring up the time to do that then Raids aren't suitable for you or Bob.

Perhaps, but in that case, either the player could still take that time, and enjoy the experience more because it was a more palatable easy mode,

or

the player would be able to pick and choose a few encounters to do each week, and thus progress at a slower rate than he possibly could, but at least he would be progressing.

The most time consuming thing is waiting for players, be it to fill up the squad or for everyone to press ready and the only thing that would prevent that would be nerfing the fights so hard that you finish them pressing one with random gear drooling over your keyboard.

They wouldn't be made quite that simple, but the goal is to make them easy enough to complete that you could fill a team first-come, first-serve, so most times of day you should be able to find ten people to tackle an encounter within a few minutes.

@"Miellyn.6847" said:Many of the commenters here agreed partly with your ideas in the past and proposed some changes. But you dismissed everything if it looked like you wouldn't get everything you want.

All I'm asking for is that two criteria are met, 1. That it provide an easier version of the raid that can be completed at a casual difficulty level comparable to the rest of the game's content, and 2. that it provide a path to the same rewards that are available in the current raids. Nothing more than that. I have my own ideas about the best way to accomplish those, but I'm very flexible on that. Now if someone

claims

to be "supportive" while insisting that one or both of those items must be completely off the table, then I'm sorry, but that's just being disingenuous at best.

You don't want any compromise where you have to give up some of the things you want. That's not how compromises work.

The compromise is that the easy mode would be

in addition to

the existing raids. The non-compromise situation is that the existing raids would be the ones nerfed into being the easy mode versions, as they did with various other content in the game. Don't claim that I'm not compromising simply because my starting position was already a fair compromise. I've been trying to be reasonable from the start here.

You had the chance for a real discussion and you blew it with your selfishness.

Ok, I'm willing to listen to your advice here. Let's say we start from scratch. What tack should I take here to achieve my point 1 and 2 above, without "blowing it?"

Quick question if there was an alternate way to get the armor and not step foot in the Raids, is that a possibility?

Been brainstorming some ideas.

But the 3 boss settup isnt entirelly accurate. Event encounters reward li as well amd w1,4 and 5 have in total 4 li each iirc.

I was just using it as an approximation, Maybe we will a 4 boss wing raid maybe there will be 2, who knows.