Do raids need easy/normal/hard difficulty mode? [merged]

[Bladestrom.6425]

@Feanor.2358 said:The number of players is irrelevant. In a lower difficulty setting the teamplay isn't even required and players won't take advantage of it anyway.

its very relevant, players like the dynamics of 10 man instances.

[Bladestrom.6425]

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:The number of players is irrelevant. In a lower difficulty setting the teamplay isn't even required and players won't take advantage of it anyway.

its very relevant, players like the dynamics of 10 man instances. Try ESO, WOW, FF many many games have lower tuned isntances that are jam packed with players that dont play top end tuning. What is it you fear?

[Ohoni.6057]

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:No, you're imagining you do that. And I'm telling you what the actual results would be.

No, you're imagining you do that. And I'm telling you what the actual results would be.

Nice try. Then I challenge you to explain why all the game design, pretty much ever, agrees with me and

not

with you.

Laziness, although really you mostly just assume that it agrees with you more than with me. Reality is somewhere in the middle.

I fail to see why. Instanced content of lower difficulties already exists.

"Instanced content of lower difficulties" is not easier raids. Nobody is asking for what you're offering, stop pretending that anyone is.

[zealex.9410]

@Tyson.5160 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:Nope, I most certainly don't have to agree on anything.

You concede by default it's ok.

I'm burying my face in my hands right now. Figuratively and literally. "The amount of bugs should be negligible"? Oh my... As a rule of thumb, nothing is ever negligible or easy in game development. It often seems so, to outside people, because they imagine small, contained changes. What they fail to take into account is a game is a vast, complex system of interlocked sub-systems. There is very rarely such thing as a "contained" change.

I'm well aware of the perils of bug-chasing, I do it daily, but my point is, this is largely not changes to

systems,

like adding entirely new mechanics, and mostly just a tweak of existing properties. If an attack works fine dealing 500 damage per hit then it should work just as well dealing 100 per hit. It's easier to go down than up, too. What you're arguing sounds like a "mysticism" argument, "don't tempt the dark gods of the forest, you never know when they will strike."

Not to mention finding the proper balance between "too challenging for non-raiders" and "complete faceroll" will require a lot of tweaking and even more testing.

And again, getting it right on the first try is a lot less vital than with the initial raid releases, because nobody cares too much if they get it wrong. They can fix it in post.

That’s fine. Then perhaps after finishing Raid Wing 10 they can take a break and develop an easy mode. 10 raid wings should keep people busy especially if they decide to put in a LI cap, which is going add it’s own set of problems.

Doesnt work like that. Those arent 10 new wings, at that point u will be doing wings 1 to 9 for years so an immense w8 for all the easy modes plus wing 10 would flat out kill the scene.

Same thing aplies to fractals and every bit of content in this game, the fact that it looks much doesnt change the fact that ppl have been playing it for years and are bound to get bored of it.

So what you are saying is no matter what the suggestion is for an easy mode, even when it won’t interfere with raid development, that you won’t agree with it.

People in this forum don’t even think they will make it to Wing 10. Heck, I’ll take an easy mode when they are done after Wing 8.

Im not saying i dissagree witha story mode or soemthing like that. I dissagree with it giving you the envoy set but that wasnt the point of my post.

This where I would disagree, I think it should award the set, but make it take much longer, this gives the person the incentive to try the normal modes to complete it faster.

I disagree. The set is awarded by beating the raids by overcomming them, you shouldnt get the armor for doing a strictly easier version.

Eh? Yeah but you can buy Raids and do absolutely nothing to get them. I could bring the credit card out and also have the legendary armor too. Really I’m actually surprised that no one is up in arms about Anet supporting that avenue.

You could, but it defeats the purpose. You'd be deliberately going out of your way in order to

not

play the game. There are always players like that, it can't be helped. And it's not a reason to screw up reward structure and incentives for players who

aren't

like that. That is to say, the players who this content was intended in the first place - those who ended up being raiders.

Sure but an easy mode could supply the same thing. If it takes the person 7 months to obtain just the first set, and 13 months to obtain the additional sets. There is a natural incentive to want to complete those normal difficulties too, to obtain it faster.

It’s like pvp legendary armor, sure you can lose every match, but why would you? It takes over 3 times longer to lose your way to that armor set, not to mention the nature time gate of that set as well.

It also takes 10 times less effort.

What does? The easy mode or the pvp armor?

Losing your way to the pvp legendary.

But your ok with people paying to get Legendary Armor? Where is the effort there? Me whipping out my credit card?

Im not particularly happy about it but thats 1 in every 100 due ti the insane cost that it has. Its alot of gold wasted and ppl know that.

Also theres achievement selling since forever fir things ppl find to hard, whats wrong with that?

It’s still zero effort. I can save up a bunch of gold then buy all the raid bosses and also not spend a dime as an alternate route. The argument of effort for the armor is somewhat ridiculous, I’m alright with a time investment. Either through reduced LI through an easy mode or saving up all my gold, what’s the difference, I’m still cheating the effort portion.

Just buying 150 kills and achievents will take you so much gold. At that point you are free to do what ever you want.

Besides anet has tried to make it so you cant just buy them all. You need to deal some dmg and stay alive to get some.

Well you’ll get the LI from the kills for the achievements, that you would have to pay for, then you could in theory do Escort and Mo and your looking at 14 months if you go those two kills a week.

Ok and whys that bad?

[zealex.9410]

@Tyson.5160 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:Nope, I most certainly don't have to agree on anything.

You concede by default it's ok.

I'm burying my face in my hands right now. Figuratively and literally. "The amount of bugs should be negligible"? Oh my... As a rule of thumb, nothing is ever negligible or easy in game development. It often seems so, to outside people, because they imagine small, contained changes. What they fail to take into account is a game is a vast, complex system of interlocked sub-systems. There is very rarely such thing as a "contained" change.

I'm well aware of the perils of bug-chasing, I do it daily, but my point is, this is largely not changes to

systems,

like adding entirely new mechanics, and mostly just a tweak of existing properties. If an attack works fine dealing 500 damage per hit then it should work just as well dealing 100 per hit. It's easier to go down than up, too. What you're arguing sounds like a "mysticism" argument, "don't tempt the dark gods of the forest, you never know when they will strike."

Not to mention finding the proper balance between "too challenging for non-raiders" and "complete faceroll" will require a lot of tweaking and even more testing.

And again, getting it right on the first try is a lot less vital than with the initial raid releases, because nobody cares too much if they get it wrong. They can fix it in post.

That’s fine. Then perhaps after finishing Raid Wing 10 they can take a break and develop an easy mode. 10 raid wings should keep people busy especially if they decide to put in a LI cap, which is going add it’s own set of problems.

Doesnt work like that. Those arent 10 new wings, at that point u will be doing wings 1 to 9 for years so an immense w8 for all the easy modes plus wing 10 would flat out kill the scene.

Same thing aplies to fractals and every bit of content in this game, the fact that it looks much doesnt change the fact that ppl have been playing it for years and are bound to get bored of it.

So what you are saying is no matter what the suggestion is for an easy mode, even when it won’t interfere with raid development, that you won’t agree with it.

People in this forum don’t even think they will make it to Wing 10. Heck, I’ll take an easy mode when they are done after Wing 8.

Im not saying i dissagree witha story mode or soemthing like that. I dissagree with it giving you the envoy set but that wasnt the point of my post.

This where I would disagree, I think it should award the set, but make it take much longer, this gives the person the incentive to try the normal modes to complete it faster.

I disagree. The set is awarded by beating the raids by overcomming them, you shouldnt get the armor for doing a strictly easier version.

Eh? Yeah but you can buy Raids and do absolutely nothing to get them. I could bring the credit card out and also have the legendary armor too. Really I’m actually surprised that no one is up in arms about Anet supporting that avenue.

You could, but it defeats the purpose. You'd be deliberately going out of your way in order to

not

play the game. There are always players like that, it can't be helped. And it's not a reason to screw up reward structure and incentives for players who

aren't

like that. That is to say, the players who this content was intended in the first place - those who ended up being raiders.

Sure but an easy mode could supply the same thing. If it takes the person 7 months to obtain just the first set, and 13 months to obtain the additional sets. There is a natural incentive to want to complete those normal difficulties too, to obtain it faster.

It’s like pvp legendary armor, sure you can lose every match, but why would you? It takes over 3 times longer to lose your way to that armor set, not to mention the nature time gate of that set as well.

It also takes 10 times less effort.

What does? The easy mode or the pvp armor?

Losing your way to the pvp legendary.

Ok, do me a favor, go lose every pvp match in order to obtain the Legendary Armor. You’ll get sick of losing, also the extra time that is pushed on you is enormous.

Idc i can just afk there run arou d and have mock duels with others to pass my time. It will take me more time but in the grand scheme of thing i will be done without making a single drop of sweat.

Again, I could do the same with my credit card, zero effort.

Afking in a pvp match and working, making the money and giving saud money for a skin arent the same.

How is running around in pvp getting the Legendary Armor for a long time any different then running around making gold for a long time and buying the raids?

One will take you far far faaar longer than the other making the whole deal just undeasonable.

So is running around aimlessly in pvp and going afk in matches.

Yeah but runni g aimlessly in pvp takes no effort. Making the gold ingame or outside of it takes more.

[zealex.9410]

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@"Feanor.2358" said:Originally, yes. But the game lacked harder content to keep the more hardcore-oriented players in it. The addition of raids was aimed at that - becoming more diverse, and ultimately having a larger playerbase.

So, the anti-thesis of "Purity of purpose," right? Instead of focus on developing content for its intended audience, instead developing a version of one for the audience it was never intended?

It encourages players to try things they might otherwise not.

Ok, please explain this to me. What is the benefit in encouraging someone to do something they

do not enjoy

for

hundreds of hours?

I totally understand the idea of getting people to

try

new experiences, that's fine, but easily accomplished using rewards that any player can earn with at most a few hours of effort. That motivating factor has nothing whatsoever to do with Envoy Armor's current design. What, to you, is the benefit in encouraging players to

keep

playing a specific content, for hundreds of hours

after

they know that they do not enjoy that content at all, and would prefer to be spending their time in game doing something else entirely?

The devs never wanted the entire game to be "easy". Parts of it yes, hell even most it but they didmt want all of it to be easy.

[Tyson.5160]

@Sephylon.4938 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Sephylon.4938 said:same could be said about the pvp/wvw skins could it not?

Yes and no, I’m actually working on a full set of pvp Legendary Armor right now, started working on it when they announced it last year. You have way more control with the progress of pvp/wvw armor. This feels more reminiscent to making a Legendary Weapon, then the Raid set. I can drop 6 hours into pvp and see real progress, where I can drop 8 hours into raids and receive nothing.

What do you mean by "way more control with the progress of pvp/wvw armor"? Moreover, how do you have more control in a pvp/wvw scenario vs a scripted fight with an ai?

It means I can spend time in pvp and see progress, while I can spend the same time in raids and see 0 progress.

[Tyson.5160]

@zealex.9410 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:Nope, I most certainly don't have to agree on anything.

You concede by default it's ok.

I'm burying my face in my hands right now. Figuratively and literally. "The amount of bugs should be negligible"? Oh my... As a rule of thumb, nothing is ever negligible or easy in game development. It often seems so, to outside people, because they imagine small, contained changes. What they fail to take into account is a game is a vast, complex system of interlocked sub-systems. There is very rarely such thing as a "contained" change.

I'm well aware of the perils of bug-chasing, I do it daily, but my point is, this is largely not changes to

systems,

like adding entirely new mechanics, and mostly just a tweak of existing properties. If an attack works fine dealing 500 damage per hit then it should work just as well dealing 100 per hit. It's easier to go down than up, too. What you're arguing sounds like a "mysticism" argument, "don't tempt the dark gods of the forest, you never know when they will strike."

Not to mention finding the proper balance between "too challenging for non-raiders" and "complete faceroll" will require a lot of tweaking and even more testing.

And again, getting it right on the first try is a lot less vital than with the initial raid releases, because nobody cares too much if they get it wrong. They can fix it in post.

That’s fine. Then perhaps after finishing Raid Wing 10 they can take a break and develop an easy mode. 10 raid wings should keep people busy especially if they decide to put in a LI cap, which is going add it’s own set of problems.

Doesnt work like that. Those arent 10 new wings, at that point u will be doing wings 1 to 9 for years so an immense w8 for all the easy modes plus wing 10 would flat out kill the scene.

Same thing aplies to fractals and every bit of content in this game, the fact that it looks much doesnt change the fact that ppl have been playing it for years and are bound to get bored of it.

So what you are saying is no matter what the suggestion is for an easy mode, even when it won’t interfere with raid development, that you won’t agree with it.

People in this forum don’t even think they will make it to Wing 10. Heck, I’ll take an easy mode when they are done after Wing 8.

Im not saying i dissagree witha story mode or soemthing like that. I dissagree with it giving you the envoy set but that wasnt the point of my post.

This where I would disagree, I think it should award the set, but make it take much longer, this gives the person the incentive to try the normal modes to complete it faster.

I disagree. The set is awarded by beating the raids by overcomming them, you shouldnt get the armor for doing a strictly easier version.

Eh? Yeah but you can buy Raids and do absolutely nothing to get them. I could bring the credit card out and also have the legendary armor too. Really I’m actually surprised that no one is up in arms about Anet supporting that avenue.

You could, but it defeats the purpose. You'd be deliberately going out of your way in order to

not

play the game. There are always players like that, it can't be helped. And it's not a reason to screw up reward structure and incentives for players who

aren't

like that. That is to say, the players who this content was intended in the first place - those who ended up being raiders.

Sure but an easy mode could supply the same thing. If it takes the person 7 months to obtain just the first set, and 13 months to obtain the additional sets. There is a natural incentive to want to complete those normal difficulties too, to obtain it faster.

It’s like pvp legendary armor, sure you can lose every match, but why would you? It takes over 3 times longer to lose your way to that armor set, not to mention the nature time gate of that set as well.

It also takes 10 times less effort.

What does? The easy mode or the pvp armor?

Losing your way to the pvp legendary.

Ok, do me a favor, go lose every pvp match in order to obtain the Legendary Armor. You’ll get sick of losing, also the extra time that is pushed on you is enormous.

Idc i can just afk there run arou d and have mock duels with others to pass my time. It will take me more time but in the grand scheme of thing i will be done without making a single drop of sweat.

Again, I could do the same with my credit card, zero effort.

Afking in a pvp match and working, making the money and giving saud money for a skin arent the same.

How is running around in pvp getting the Legendary Armor for a long time any different then running around making gold for a long time and buying the raids?

One will take you far far faaar longer than the other making the whole deal just undeasonable.

So is running around aimlessly in pvp and going afk in matches.

Yeah but runni g aimlessly in pvp takes no effort. Making the gold ingame or outside of it takes more.

You would have to have the mental fortitude of a Buddhist Monk to obtain Pvp armor that way.

[Feanor.2358]

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:No, you're imagining you do that. And I'm telling you what the actual results would be.

No, you're imagining you do that. And I'm telling you what the actual results would be.

Nice try. Then I challenge you to explain why all the game design, pretty much ever, agrees with me and

not

with you.

Laziness, although really you mostly just assume that it agrees with you more than with me. Reality is somewhere in the middle.

Riiiight. One whole industry is just too lazy to figure it out. Made my day bro. :lol:And no, I don't just assume. I see it over and over, pretty much everywhere. Whenever the intent is for a specific content to be played over prolonged periods - be it a whole game or just a piece of one - difficult to obtain rewards are used as an incentive. Sometimes the reward will be directly accessible, as it is here, sometimes it is RNG-based as in Diablo. It doesn't really matter - in both cases the expected time to get said reward is sufficiently high to create the intended replayability. Never will you see the ultimate reward a game has to offer being just handed over for doing nothing special. Even in RNG-driven loot systems you'll see restrictions coming by. For instance, D3 locks the highest tier of gear not only behind abysmal drop chances, but also requires you to have cleared a specific, high enough level dungeon. It is only normal - that's the means the game has to make you invested.

[Tyson.5160]

@zealex.9410 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:Nope, I most certainly don't have to agree on anything.

You concede by default it's ok.

I'm burying my face in my hands right now. Figuratively and literally. "The amount of bugs should be negligible"? Oh my... As a rule of thumb, nothing is ever negligible or easy in game development. It often seems so, to outside people, because they imagine small, contained changes. What they fail to take into account is a game is a vast, complex system of interlocked sub-systems. There is very rarely such thing as a "contained" change.

I'm well aware of the perils of bug-chasing, I do it daily, but my point is, this is largely not changes to

systems,

like adding entirely new mechanics, and mostly just a tweak of existing properties. If an attack works fine dealing 500 damage per hit then it should work just as well dealing 100 per hit. It's easier to go down than up, too. What you're arguing sounds like a "mysticism" argument, "don't tempt the dark gods of the forest, you never know when they will strike."

Not to mention finding the proper balance between "too challenging for non-raiders" and "complete faceroll" will require a lot of tweaking and even more testing.

And again, getting it right on the first try is a lot less vital than with the initial raid releases, because nobody cares too much if they get it wrong. They can fix it in post.

That’s fine. Then perhaps after finishing Raid Wing 10 they can take a break and develop an easy mode. 10 raid wings should keep people busy especially if they decide to put in a LI cap, which is going add it’s own set of problems.

Doesnt work like that. Those arent 10 new wings, at that point u will be doing wings 1 to 9 for years so an immense w8 for all the easy modes plus wing 10 would flat out kill the scene.

Same thing aplies to fractals and every bit of content in this game, the fact that it looks much doesnt change the fact that ppl have been playing it for years and are bound to get bored of it.

So what you are saying is no matter what the suggestion is for an easy mode, even when it won’t interfere with raid development, that you won’t agree with it.

People in this forum don’t even think they will make it to Wing 10. Heck, I’ll take an easy mode when they are done after Wing 8.

Im not saying i dissagree witha story mode or soemthing like that. I dissagree with it giving you the envoy set but that wasnt the point of my post.

This where I would disagree, I think it should award the set, but make it take much longer, this gives the person the incentive to try the normal modes to complete it faster.

I disagree. The set is awarded by beating the raids by overcomming them, you shouldnt get the armor for doing a strictly easier version.

Eh? Yeah but you can buy Raids and do absolutely nothing to get them. I could bring the credit card out and also have the legendary armor too. Really I’m actually surprised that no one is up in arms about Anet supporting that avenue.

You could, but it defeats the purpose. You'd be deliberately going out of your way in order to

not

play the game. There are always players like that, it can't be helped. And it's not a reason to screw up reward structure and incentives for players who

aren't

like that. That is to say, the players who this content was intended in the first place - those who ended up being raiders.

Sure but an easy mode could supply the same thing. If it takes the person 7 months to obtain just the first set, and 13 months to obtain the additional sets. There is a natural incentive to want to complete those normal difficulties too, to obtain it faster.

It’s like pvp legendary armor, sure you can lose every match, but why would you? It takes over 3 times longer to lose your way to that armor set, not to mention the nature time gate of that set as well.

It also takes 10 times less effort.

What does? The easy mode or the pvp armor?

Losing your way to the pvp legendary.

Ok, do me a favor, go lose every pvp match in order to obtain the Legendary Armor. You’ll get sick of losing, also the extra time that is pushed on you is enormous.

Idc i can just afk there run arou d and have mock duels with others to pass my time. It will take me more time but in the grand scheme of thing i will be done without making a single drop of sweat.

Again, I could do the same with my credit card, zero effort.

Afking in a pvp match and working, making the money and giving saud money for a skin arent the same.

How is running around in pvp getting the Legendary Armor for a long time any different then running around making gold for a long time and buying the raids?

One will take you far far faaar longer than the other making the whole deal just undeasonable.

So is running around aimlessly in pvp and going afk in matches.

Yeah but runni g aimlessly in pvp takes no effort. Making the gold ingame or outside of it takes more.

And yet it still takes effort, heck it even takes more effort, because instead of playing other parts of the game your running in pvp for ages, collecting your 3 pips per loss instead of your 11 for a win. If your that dedicated to spend that much time logging in everyday and losing every matches, then I still call it effort or better yet dedication.

[Tyson.5160]

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:No, you're imagining you do that. And I'm telling you what the actual results would be.

No, you're imagining you do that. And I'm telling you what the actual results would be.

Nice try. Then I challenge you to explain why all the game design, pretty much ever, agrees with me and

not

with you.

Laziness, although really you mostly just assume that it agrees with you more than with me. Reality is somewhere in the middle.

Riiiight. One whole industry is just too lazy to figure it out. Made my day bro. :lol:And no, I don't just assume. I see it over and over, pretty much everywhere. Whenever the intent is for a specific content to be played over prolonged periods - be it a whole game or just a piece of one - difficult to obtain rewards are used as an incentive. Sometimes the reward will be directly accessible, as it is here, sometimes it is RNG-based as in Diablo. It doesn't really matter - in both cases the expected time to get said reward is sufficiently high to create the intended replayability.

Never

will you see

the ultimate

reward a game has to offer being just handed over for doing nothing special. Even in RNG-driven loot systems you'll see restrictions coming by. For instance, D3 locks the highest tier of gear not only behind abysmal drop chances, but also requires you to have cleared a specific, high enough level dungeon. It is only normal - that's the means the game has to make you invested.

What is kind of funny is that this particular thread explodes like a wildfire. We are what over 1000 posts? With threads continuing to be smashed into it. Honestly if everyone was against this idea wouldn’t have answered the Op then it would have been dead and forgotten and here we are continuing to grow this thread.

[Rhiannon.1726]

@Tyson.5160 said:What is kind of funny is that this particular thread explodes like a wildfire. We are what over 1000 posts? With threads continuing to be smashed into it. Honestly if everyone was against this idea wouldn’t have answered the Op then it would have been dead and forgotten and here we are continuing to grow this thread.

The thread is so long and still alive because the same ca. 10 people are running in circles.

[Tyson.5160]

@Rhiannon.1726 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:What is kind of funny is that this particular thread explodes like a wildfire. We are what over 1000 posts? With threads continuing to be smashed into it. Honestly if everyone was against this idea wouldn’t have answered the Op then it would have been dead and forgotten and here we are continuing to grow this thread.

The thread is so long and still alive because the same ca. 10 people are running in circles.

And we will never be silenced.

[Anvil.9230]

@Rhiannon.1726 said:

@"Tyson.5160" said:What is kind of funny is that this particular thread explodes like a wildfire. We are what over 1000 posts? With threads continuing to be smashed into it. Honestly if everyone was against this idea wouldn’t have answered the Op then it would have been dead and forgotten and here we are continuing to grow this thread.

The thread is so long and still alive because the same ca. 10 people are running in circles.

Because some people flood that topic, and hope to obtain what they want just doing that: The possibility to obtain the skins as the legendary armor and other raids' rewards using a "pure farming" gameplay trough an "easy mode".

"Pure farming" was the old way to obtain the old legendary weapons: just by luck and/or 'farming"...It was so boring that the game design team have introduce a more challenging way to unlock exclusive skins with maudrey bypack...A thing lots of players enjoy.But they do not care. They want a possibility to obtain the end game rewards just by "farming" an easy content....No matter raids were created to give players a valuable end game content,....No matter the fact that such a possibility would bring close to 0 the value players, who enjoy challenges, give to that kind of specific rewards.

And no matter the answer already given by someone of the arenanet team about raid difficulty ( https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/113984#Comment_113984 ) :

@"Crystal Reid.2481" said:New forum, so I'll jump in with a new post on this.

We won't be adding a different difficulty tier at this time. Raids need to continue to remain the most challenging content in the game, and they aren't designed to be accessible by everyone from a skill perspective. Could they be more accessible from a "finding 9 other players to play with" side? Sure. That isn't always an easy problem to solve, and any solution would detract away from the team making more raid content. We'd love to get more content out to you guys faster really.

I see a lot of comments about W4 difficulty, so I'll add some notes on that as well. Balance came in later than expected since we had far more bosses and content to test than usual. Are we totally happy with how balance turned out? Yes and no. The Mursaat Overseer base difficulty is too easy, but we were very happy with the CM difficulty. For the next release we'd like to get difficulty tuned more back in line with Spirit Vale. However, some of that original difficulty and magic is hard to re-capture. You never forget your first raid boss kill.

[Tyson.5160]

@Anvil.9230 said:

@Rhiannon.1726 said:

@"Tyson.5160" said:What is kind of funny is that this particular thread explodes like a wildfire. We are what over 1000 posts? With threads continuing to be smashed into it. Honestly if everyone was against this idea wouldn’t have answered the Op then it would have been dead and forgotten and here we are continuing to grow this thread.

The thread is so long and still alive because the same ca. 10 people are running in circles.

Because some people flood that topic, and hope to obtain what they want just doing that: The possibility to obtain the skins as the legendary armor and other raids' rewards using a "pure farming" gameplay trough an "easy mode".

"Pure farming" was the old way to obtain the old legendary weapons: just by luck and/or 'farming"...It was so boring that the game design team have introduce a more challenging way to unlock exclusive skins with maudrey bypack...A thing lots of players enjoy.But they do not care. They want a possibility to obtain the end game rewards just by "farming" an easy content....No matter raids were created to give to players a valuable end game content,....No matter the fact that a such possibility would bring close to 0 the value players, who enjoy challenges, give to that kind of specific rewards.

And no matter the answer already given by someone of the arenanet team about raid difficulty (

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/113984#Comment_113984

) :

@Crystal Reid.2481 said:New forum, so I'll jump in with a new post on this.

We won't be adding a different difficulty tier at this time.

Notice her phrasing though Anvil? We won’t be adding a different difficulty tier at this time...

She didn’t say we will never add different difficulty tiers.

This is the hope that I cling to.

[STIHL.2489]

I am not asking for the game to be easy, I am asking for it to be accessible.

If they wanted to make the game hard, they would force us to be nice to each other.

[Sephylon.4938]

@STIHL.2489 said:I am not asking for the game to be easy, I am asking for it to be accessible.

If they wanted to make the game hard, they would force us to be nice to each other.

How can they make it accessible, especially sine it's the players not the game that bars them from entry? The stance I take on that topic, is that people will be people, and will behave as they do now even in an easier version of raids. I.e. bar people from entry by being the only people putting up lfgs and using their standards for the group.

[Bladestrom.6425]

@Sephylon.4938 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:I am not asking for the game to be easy, I am asking for it to be accessible.

If they wanted to make the game hard, they would force us to be nice to each other.

How can they make it accessible, especially sine it's the players not the game that bars them from entry? The stance I take on that topic, is that people will be people, and will behave as they do now even in an easier version of raids. I.e. bar people from entry by being the only people putting up lfgs and using their standards for the group.

simply put they would make it easier. Exact same thing is available in ESO, WOW etc and the 'normal' mode raids are wildly more popular in comparison to the tuned 'hard mode' and that's in games where gear scores are important, GW2 doesn't have that chip on its shoulder to deal with so it can only be better. The bonus to Hared mode raids is that people will naturally gravitate up to hard mode as they get comfortable with fight mechanic is normal mode., so much needed blood there. On top of that Anet get more value for their dev cost for raids, so they are likely to build more. The only people that lose are those trying to keep raiding an exclusive club for selfish reasons, and thats a good thing (same people that complained when WOW introduced normal mode in WOTLk days etc)

[Astralporing.1957]

@zealex.9410 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

Sure but isn’t this a casual MMO? Wasn’t that the design? Wasn’t that the purpose?

Casual doesnt necessarily mean easy.True, but the bigger part of the raid difficulty lies in things that are very much not casual.

@zealex.9410 said:Adding dungeon armor to pvp was a bad idea in the first place.Why? It didn't hurt dungeons in the slightest.

I keep repeating this question every time the matter of pvp dungeon reward tracks is brought up, and i have yet to hear a single example of a bad consequence of that decision.

@Sephylon.4938 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Sephylon.4938 said:same could be said about the pvp/wvw skins could it not?

Yes and no, I’m actually working on a full set of pvp Legendary Armor right now, started working on it when they announced it last year. You have way more control with the progress of pvp/wvw armor. This feels more reminiscent to making a Legendary Weapon, then the Raid set. I can drop 6 hours into pvp and see real progress, where I can drop 8 hours into raids and receive nothing.

What do you mean by "way more control with the progress of pvp/wvw armor"? Moreover, how do you have more control in a pvp/wvw scenario vs a scripted fight with an ai?Anything you do in WvW/PvP gives you progress towards your goal. Raids on the other hand are binary in its nature. You fail the boss, you get

zero

progress.So, if you go in for 3 hours of WvW, you know that at the end of it you will be closer to your goal. In case of raids, you might end in the very same place you started. And not necessarily due to

your

faults.

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:its very relevant, players like the dynamics of 10 man instances. Try ESO, WOW, FF many many games have lower tuned isntances that are jam packed with players that dont play top end tuning. What is it you fear?He fears exactly that - that many of the current raid players aren't really interested in the current difficutly levels, but in other aspects of the content, and that raids would not survive if only the people that actually liked them as they are played them.

@"Feanor.2358" said:Riiiight. One whole industry is just too lazy to figure it out.Too unimaginative, to be more precise. Trying new things is risky and costly, so the industry keeps repeating old patterns over and over again until someone that didn't get the memo suddenly proves to them that something could be done better. And then the story repeats itself until the new change.

MMos used to be really different from each other, and then suddenly WoW came and made a big success. And since noone really fully understood why it was such a success, everyone kept thinking "it worked for them, it will work for us". What resulted was a long stream of WoW clones, with each one thinking they will be the succesfu ones. That kept happening even long after everyone with even a basic intelligence could realize that you simply couldn't compete with WoW by being the same as it.

The old designs are being used over and over again not because they're the best the industry can make. It's because almost noone is willing to try new things to see if they can do better. They'd rather copy those old designs from their predecessors. The problem is, those designs might not have been all that important for the success of those predecessors, or their success might have been tied to a specific (and different) target audience.

So yes. On the whole the industry can be very lazy, unimaginative and extremely conservative.

Many od the game designs are being reused for 15+ years not because they are good, but because someone had an idea like this once in the beginning (when people were still trying new things, because everything was new) and no big enough game designer ever tried to change them. Yet.

[Sephylon.4938]

Anything you do in WvW/PvP gives you progress towards your goal. Raids on the other hand are binary in its nature. You fail the boss, you get zero progress.So, if you go in for 3 hours of WvW, you know that at the end of it you will be closer to your goal. In case of raids, you might end in the very same place you started. And not necessarily due to your faults.

I beg to differ. Failing the boss rewards 1-5 magnetites depending on which stage of the fight you wiped. Additionally, it teaches you what not to do for that boss, leading you to play better next time. Going on your example of wvw, the 3 hours you speak of could have been spent constantly wiping as a solo roamer to 5-50 man squads. Would that be any different than wiping to a boss for 3 hours?

P.S. No offense intended, but the question was pointed towards @Tyson.5160. I thank you for your interpretation of it, but I would like to know of @Tyson.5160's thoughts on the matter so that there is no misinterpretation.

[Astralporing.1957]

@Sephylon.4938 said:

Anything you do in WvW/PvP gives you progress towards your goal. Raids on the other hand are binary in its nature. You fail the boss, you get zero progress.So, if you go in for 3 hours of WvW, you know that at the end of it you will be closer to your goal. In case of raids, you might end in the very same place you started. And not necessarily due to your faults.

I beg to differ. Failing the boss rewards 1-5 magnetites depending on which stage of the fight you wiped.Which gives you no progress towards the legendary armor, seeing as it doesn't use magnetites for anything.

Going on your example of wvw, the 3 hours you speak of could have been spent constantly wiping as a solo roamer to 5-50 man squads. Would that be any different than wiping to a boss for 3 hours?Yes. In 3 hours, even constantly wiping, i can still easily keep that tier 3 participation up and advance several chests on the track, getting some tickets towards the legendary armor. Wiping on a raid boss however doesn't do that. There's no progress.

(and i'm sure i've seen Tyson answering your original question in one of the past posts, in pretty much the same way as i did)

[Sephylon.4938]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Sephylon.4938 said:

Anything you do in WvW/PvP gives you progress towards your goal. Raids on the other hand are binary in its nature. You fail the boss, you get zero progress.So, if you go in for 3 hours of WvW, you know that at the end of it you will be closer to your goal. In case of raids, you might end in the very same place you started. And not necessarily due to your faults.

I beg to differ. Failing the boss rewards 1-5 magnetites depending on which stage of the fight you wiped.Which gives you no progress towards the legendary armor, seeing as it doesn't use magnetites for anything.

Going on your example of wvw, the 3 hours you speak of could have been spent constantly wiping as a solo roamer to 5-50 man squads. Would that be any different than wiping to a boss for 3 hours?Yes. In 3 hours, even constantly wiping, i can still easily keep that tier 3 participation up and advance several chests on the track, getting some tickets towards the legendary armor. Wiping on a raid boss however doesn't do that. There's no progress.

(and i'm sure i've seen Tyson answering your original question in one of the past posts, in pretty much the same way as i did)

Assuming that you are playing with the same people for the duration of the 3 hours and for the rest of your time raiding, would you say that you and your group are more, less, or just as likely to kill the boss during the next 3 hour session?

Additionally, wiping in wvw does not in-fact keep your participation up. You have to kill camps and guards, or other players to keep it up. Assuming a worst case scenario for both scenes, that your wvw server is being spawn camped and hunted and that you are playing with noobs in raids, what would your participation be like at the end of a 3 hour run in that scenario? Is your sever, more, less, or just as likely to break out of the spawn camp during that 3 hour and the subsequent ones?

[Tyson.5160]

@Sephylon.4938 said:

Anything you do in WvW/PvP gives you progress towards your goal. Raids on the other hand are binary in its nature. You fail the boss, you get zero progress.So, if you go in for 3 hours of WvW, you know that at the end of it you will be closer to your goal. In case of raids, you might end in the very same place you started. And not necessarily due to your faults.

I beg to differ. Failing the boss rewards 1-5 magnetites depending on which stage of the fight you wiped. Additionally, it teaches you what not to do for that boss, leading you to play better next time. Going on your example of wvw, the 3 hours you speak of could have been spent constantly wiping as a solo roamer to 5-50 man squads. Would that be any different than wiping to a boss for 3 hours?

P.S. No offense intended, but the question was pointed towards @Tyson.5160. I thank you for your interpretation of it, but I would like to know of @Tyson.5160's thoughts on the matter so that there is no misinterpretation.

My experience in Wvw is that I can grab a couple camps, join up with a random squad and take a couple of towers for 3 hours and see real progress just in terms of the pips system. I have also done Raids for the same amount of time and haven’t seen any progress. Mainly with people leaving after a few wipes. Yeah I get some mag shards, but there is no progress to the armor.

[Sephylon.4938]

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Sephylon.4938 said:

Anything you do in WvW/PvP gives you progress towards your goal. Raids on the other hand are binary in its nature. You fail the boss, you get zero progress.So, if you go in for 3 hours of WvW, you know that at the end of it you will be closer to your goal. In case of raids, you might end in the very same place you started. And not necessarily due to your faults.

I beg to differ. Failing the boss rewards 1-5 magnetites depending on which stage of the fight you wiped. Additionally, it teaches you what not to do for that boss, leading you to play better next time. Going on your example of wvw, the 3 hours you speak of could have been spent constantly wiping as a solo roamer to 5-50 man squads. Would that be any different than wiping to a boss for 3 hours?

P.S. No offense intended, but the question was pointed towards @Tyson.5160. I thank you for your interpretation of it, but I would like to know of @Tyson.5160's thoughts on the matter so that there is no misinterpretation.

My experience in Wvw is that I can grab a couple camps, join up with a random squad and take a couple of towers for 3 hours and see real progress just in terms of the pips system. I have also done Raids for the same amount of time and haven’t seen any progress. Mainly with people leaving after a few wipes. Yeah I get some mag shards, but there is no progress to the armor.

But what of the boss itself? Are you more comfortable with its mechanics? Are you more aware of what needs to be done? Are you more confident in joining non training/kill runs?

[STIHL.2489]

@Sephylon.4938 said:

Anything you do in WvW/PvP gives you progress towards your goal. Raids on the other hand are binary in its nature. You fail the boss, you get zero progress.So, if you go in for 3 hours of WvW, you know that at the end of it you will be closer to your goal. In case of raids, you might end in the very same place you started. And not necessarily due to your faults.

I beg to differ. Failing the boss rewards 1-5 magnetites depending on which stage of the fight you wiped. Additionally, it teaches you what not to do for that boss, leading you to play better next time. Going on your example of wvw, the 3 hours you speak of could have been spent constantly wiping as a solo roamer to 5-50 man squads. Would that be any different than wiping to a boss for 3 hours?

P.S. No offense intended, but the question was pointed towards @Tyson.5160. I thank you for your interpretation of it, but I would like to know of @Tyson.5160's thoughts on the matter so that there is no misinterpretation.

Well first off, with WvW you get a lot of choices on how you want to interact with the game mode, you could solo (and take all the risks associated with that), you could also run in small strike squads, go with huge zergs, put up a tag yourself and see what happens. Maybe just duo, or, in some cases, golem rush garrison while a zerg commander is trying to take bay.

In a Raid, you are pretty much stuck doing this content 9 other people, who you may or may not like, and are just dealing with them because you want the loot. On top of that, a single other person can totally ruin the raid, troll it to the point of failure, and not to mention, all that prep time to get the squad going just got lost. I mean you could be just sitting around waiting for people to join the raid run for a long time, in which case you get nothing for your time investment. You don't really have a lot of control in raids, no matter how good or bad you are, you are at the mercy of the competency of the 9 other people in the encounter with you.

Such is not the case with WvW, In WvW, you are in total control of your fun and your progress.