where are the GUILD wars?

[Cuks.8241]

On 11/1/2023 at 2:29 AM, Vepa.6073 said:

Coming from BDO (Black Desert Online) here,  and while can say that GW2 is miles better in many aspects, I'd love to find something resembling Node Wars and Siege.

Node Wars=daily mass pvp fight over territory (like say Queensdale) by multiple guilds in at a set time, with some politics involved between guilds with 1 winner guild which gets rewards and holdings allowing it to participate in siege.

Siege=once a week mass pvp fight over region event (like Ascalon) by guilds that have secured territory, ofc politics and 1 winner per region with pve buffs/other rewards.

Is WvW pretty much it, or is there more depending which guild you join (GvG drama is always good for the story 😄) , or would this be even feasible to pull off in gw2? 

...sorry still reading up on what gw2 is planning (was planning?) for WvW restructuring. 

 

I love these Korean type mmo territory wars. Many of those games have some kind of iteration of it.

WvW in Gw2 is much better in terms of balance, accessibility to all players, having a constant battleground, not just a narrow window of time per week.

But it completely lacks the politics and drama that comes with these territory wars. There is no incentive to actually win anything in wvw. That is why most guilds just do open field skirmishes between them and that is content. Flipping a keep or a tower for the 10 000 times against dubious opposition is not really fun. 

And alliances or world restructuring won't solve that. It might solve the balancing of population but thats about it. Learn from Korean mmos, if you want community to care about these type of wins, they should reflect in the world. Even more drops won't help. It's not about gold or drops, its about bragging rights of being the best guild/alliance on the server and controlling a high value territory and having an army of jealous haters against you.

[Dawdler.8521]

1 hour ago, Cuks.8241 said:

.WvW in Gw2 is much better in terms of balance, accessibility to all players, having a constant battleground, not just a narrow window of time per week.

I remember Archeage (had free subscription for like 6 months because they forgot to disable it after the first month lol). Was in a large guild that looked forward to getting to that endgame zone when you could claim a castle and fight other guilds for it.

I think we had like 1 proper raid, after that the “pro” guilds had already dominated everything and no one bothered to do any war anymore because it was too much work to organize and took way too long.

[Cuks.8241]

17 minutes ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

I remember Archeage (had free subscription for like 6 months because they forgot to disable it after the first month lol). Was in a large guild that looked forward to getting to that endgame zone when you could claim a castle and fight other guilds for it.

I think we had like 1 proper raid, after that the “pro” guilds had already dominated everything and no one bothered to do any war anymore because it was too much work to organize and took way too long.

Yeah that was the problem in games I've played. Only the top guilds got to see that content. I was lucky and hardcore enough to be in such guild, most never saw a glimpse of it.

Wvw is way better in that regard. Doesnt mean the game couldnt reward top performing guilds in some way.

[XenesisII.1540]

So anyone play New World?

It's the latest game that has territory war on a schedule, and it's got open world pvp.

There's other games with territory wars, how are they going?

[Dawdler.8521]

7 minutes ago, XenesisII.1540 said:

So anyone play New World?

It's the latest game that has territory war on a schedule, and it's got open world pvp.

There's other games with territory wars, how are they going?

I never got into New World, last I heard it worked for like a month or something while guilds where still claiming terrorities, then after that it completely disintigrated as the "pro" guilds took the entire continent without anything to challenge. Everyone cried for resets. 

[Chaba.5410]

8 minutes ago, XenesisII.1540 said:

So anyone play New World?

It's the latest game that has territory war on a schedule, and it's got open world pvp.

There's other games with territory wars, how are they going?

It was a better game when it had forced open world pvp.

[TheGrimm.5624]

On 11/3/2023 at 1:44 PM, XenesisII.1540 said:

So anyone play New World?

It's the latest game that has territory war on a schedule, and it's got open world pvp.

There's other games with territory wars, how are they going?

Yes, but I missed this one and let me reply when its not 2:15 AM that has fallen back to 1:15. Surely time changes allow for better points to be made, not so much. Though it does allow for more banter but there is a cost. 

[Dopamine.6324]

On 11/3/2023 at 7:44 PM, XenesisII.1540 said:

So anyone play New World?

It's the latest game that has territory war on a schedule, and it's got open world pvp.

There's other games with territory wars, how are they going?

played alot during launch, got to experience pretty much all content. wars idea was good but lacked so many small changes to keep it enjoyable as it basicly was 4 circle captures at similar fort no matter what territory

some would say benefits guilds got for owning territory broke economy, but i would say new dupe every 3rd day for months did more 

 

[TheIceman.1039]

Hmm, what next? Add some farming nodes to pvp maps

[RisingDawn.5796]

On 11/3/2023 at 11:52 AM, Cuks.8241 said:

I love these Korean type mmo territory wars. Many of those games have some kind of iteration of it.

WvW in Gw2 is much better in terms of balance, accessibility to all players, having a constant battleground, not just a narrow window of time per week.

But it completely lacks the politics and drama that comes with these territory wars. There is no incentive to actually win anything in wvw. That is why most guilds just do open field skirmishes between them and that is content. Flipping a keep or a tower for the 10 000 times against dubious opposition is not really fun. 

 

Sounds like the 3 years of WvW, which would be very hard to replicate, because there was server identity, WvW tournaments; at least the first two ones and lots of politics involved, even before discord was invented.

Even the GvG scene was more hardcore than the current scene, the Hardcore guilds used to do alot of 'training' in PvP and  way more raids than the current ones. That is even during the GvG scrim spot, at the Windmill south of South camp on the Alpines days, before they made the arena inside the OS.

The same could be said for PvP, but that pushing for PvP as an Esport was slowly killing it from the start, even before they started balancing the game for the Elite specs. 

Spoiler

what's funny though, is i see PvP streams more popular than wvw, despite the state of that game mode competitively, compared to other F2P PVP games and still having the same toxicity.

 

Edited November 8, 2023 by CrimsonOneThree.5682

[TheGrimm.5624]

On 11/3/2023 at 1:44 PM, XenesisII.1540 said:

So anyone play New World?

It's the latest game that has territory war on a schedule, and it's got open world pvp.

There's other games with territory wars, how are they going?

Sponsored a guild group to try it out so that we could get open feedback without risk or what people might see as a waste of money and just asked them to give open feedback in the feedback forms Amazon had at each beta and among guild chat. The early betas played like someone had a checklist of what an MMO should have in it and it walked down a list of checkboxes. You could easily see where various other MMOs elements were wove together taking concepts from a large number of MMOs over the years. Each beta left feedback and each beta we could see active development. When they launched it felt like most MMOs that they needed more time. Have played it off and on after they launched.

I still think a lot of us see it as it has the bones of a good game and they are still quite active in developing and each visit can see and fell that. The combat system is pretty active. Fighting in general is fun but it is punishing on slower connections. Melee feels like melee and range you have to aim so that keeps it quite active. The gathering is addictive, the crafting is in depth and for crafters fun. The story is a bit thin and in the beginning it was hit or miss if you would have dialog or voice acting. 

There are three factions you can choose from. Last visit there still really wasn't any balance so populations on most servers were out of balance among the three factions. Companies are used in lieu of guilds but acted the same. Companies can control a territory and make money from doing so with some upkeep costs to themselves but mostly they made money for controlling.

For PvP. They have OPRs which as like sPvP as in its fixed number of players on two sides that fight for control, resources, and building. Picture a WvW scenario where there are three capture points that you can fortify and add siege to if you gather the materials from the sources on the map. You gain points in intervals by controlling these points and killing other players. Sides are assigned as people queue up and does not mean you will be paired with players from your faction. These are just 2 sided fights. Matches are timed and scored and ends whichever is reached first. Player make loot from their positioning on the score which includes various elements from game play and not just from player kills. Example healing others is factored into scoring as is building and gathering.

There is open world PvP but only if you flag for it and then you can only attack other people that are flagged. Once flagged you have PvP missions you run to create conflict. Companies (read guild) that participate in the missions will have options to trigger the war and and can dictate who is in it on their side. The War is then scheduled for a fixed day and time so that players can make sure they are on for it.

The War bits is where it loses to WvW in my opinion. The fact that its scheduled is understandable and feels wrong. Second since a Company, aka Guild is declaring a War they choose who from their faction is in it so guild size matter and in the end you have content some players my never see since these Wars are fixed amount of players on both of the two sides involved. So you end up with mostly experienced people fighting the wars without players having option to get experience if they don't get in. A second weird point about the Wars are they are done in the open map. So what that does is lock everyone not involved with the War out of that part of the map while they are going on. Which in the beginning meant having long detours around the area until they added better waypoint options. It also left them without options to do OPR type scenarios to allow players to practice for Wars even if they couldn't get them in them. So it leads to limited players doing the massive PvP content.

The flipside of the largest PvE event, the invasions faced the same thing. The players in the Guild that control a territory controlled the players that are able to participate in the PvE version of a War versus NPCs. So again you end with content that some players might never see. 

To those ends WvW excels to the WvW style elements in New World to me.

Its a buy to play so its still a beautiful and fun place to visit, but its WvW elements need a lot of work yet. Though I am glad that a company did break that old thought of we can't use good ideas that weren't our own. In that aspect they excel at taking good elements and molding them together in a bigger lace. Take the active dodge from here and combine it with the blocking logic from ESO and add in aiming elements from shooters as an example. Housing is actual housing that is both cosmetic and functional at the same time. Commerce, trading, dungeons, competition in gathering, three weight classes that you can mix and match depending on combat styles. No classes, weapons you equip define your skills and options. So they have a lot going and are still adding more. In the beginning and there was a metric ton of running until they added their own waypoint system and refined it over time. They needed mounts but are adding in them in the upcoming release. They have also released a lot of free content over time as they expanded so they gained some goodwill after a quick rise and fall so I wouldn't brush them under any tables.

Edited November 7, 2023 by TheGrimm.5624
partial sentance

[Dawdler.8521]

1 hour ago, CrimsonOneThree.5682 said:

Sounds like the 3 years of WvW, which would be very hard to replicate, because there was server identity, WvW tournaments; at least the first two ones and lots of politics involved, even before discord was invented.

Even the GvG scene was more hardcore than the current scene, the Hardcore guilds used to do alot of 'training' in PvP and  few more raids than the current ones. That is even during the GvG scrim spot, at the Windmill south of South camp on the Alpines days, before they made the arena inside the OS.

It’s almost as if there was a lot more players and guilds a few years after release in an environment that’s impossible to recreate because WvW have to adapt to reality.

[Chaba.5410]

1 hour ago, TheGrimm.5624 said:

Sponsored a guild group to try it out so that we could get open feedback without risk or what people might see as a waste of money and just asked them to give open feedback in the feedback forms Amazon had at each beta and among guild chat. The early betas played like someone had a checklist of what an MMO should have in it and it walked down a list of checkboxes. You could easily see where various other MMOs elements were wove together taking concepts from a large number of MMOs over the years. Each beta left feedback and each beta we could see active development. When they launched it felt like most MMOs that they needed more time. Have played it off and on after they launched.

I wish some of you had the opportunity to play the alpha when it was truly a sandbox game, before Amazon management caved to the "flagged PvP only" crowd, ripped out the criminal and building subsystems, and put "various other MMO elements" in for lack of any creativity - just cut'n'paste stuff that's been done in every MMO already made, recycled content because I guess that's the safer corporate bet in games these days.

It's like AGS didn't let their original developers follow their passion on what they wanted to do with the game because they were running marketing research at the same time so all the players who basically wouldn't play WvW in this game ended up piling on in that game.

Edited November 7, 2023 by Chaba.5410

[XenesisII.1540]

1 hour ago, TheGrimm.5624 said:

Sponsored a guild group to try it out so that we could get open feedback without risk or what people might see as a waste of money and just asked them to give open feedback in the feedback forms Amazon had at each beta and among guild chat. The early betas played like someone had a checklist of what an MMO should have in it and it walked down a list of checkboxes. You could easily see where various other MMOs elements were wove together taking concepts from a large number of MMOs over the years. Each beta left feedback and each beta we could see active development. When they launched it felt like most MMOs that they needed more time. Have played it off and on after they launched.

I still think a lot of us see it as it has the bones of a good game and they are still quite active in developing and each visit can see and fell that. The combat system is pretty active. Fighting in general is fun but it is punishing on slower connections. Melee feels like melee and range you have to aim so that keeps it quite active. The gathering is addictive, the crafting is in depth and for crafters fun. The story is a bit thin and in the beginning it was hit or miss if you would have dialog or voice acting. 

There are three factions you can choose from. Last visit there still really wasn't any balance so populations on most servers were out of balance among the three factions. Companies are used in lieu of guilds but acted the same. Companies can control a territory and make money from doing so with some upkeep costs to themselves but mostly they made money for controlling.

For PvP. They have OPRs which as like sPvP as in its fixed number of players on two sides that fight for control, resources, and building. Picture a WvW scenario where there are three capture points that you can fortify and add siege to if you gather the materials from the sources on the map. You gain points in intervals by controlling these points and killing other players. Sides are assigned as people queue up and does not mean you will be paired with players from your faction. These are just 2 sided fights. Matches are timed and scored and ends whichever is reached first. Player make loot from their positioning on the score which includes various elements from game play and not just from player kills. Example healing others is factored into scoring as is building and gathering.

There is open world PvP but only if you flag for it and then you can only attack other people that are flagged. Once flagged you have PvP missions you run to create conflict. Companies (read guild) that participate in the missions will have options to trigger the war and and can dictate who is in it on their side. The War is then scheduled for a fixed day and time so that players can make sure they are on for it.

The War bits is where it loses to WvW in my opinion. The fact that its scheduled is understandable and feels wrong. Second since a Company, aka Guild is declaring a War they choose who from their faction is in it so guild size matter and in the end you have content some players my never see since these Wars are fixed amount of players on both of the two sides involved. So you end up with mostly experienced people fighting the wars without players having option to get experience if they don't get in. A second weird point about the Wars are they are done in the open map. So what that does is lock everyone not involved with the War out of that part of the map while they are going on. Which in the beginning meant having long detours around the area until they added better waypoint options. It also left them without options to do OPR type scenarios to allow players to practice for Wars even if they couldn't get them in them. So it leads to limited players doing the massive PvP content.

The flipside of the largest PvE event, the invasions faced the same thing. The players in the Guild that control a territory controlled the players that are able to participate in the PvE version of a War versus NPCs. So again you end with content that some players might never see. 

To those ends WvW excels to the WvW style elements in New World to me.

Its a buy to play so its still a beautiful and fun place to visit, but its WvW elements need a lot of work yet. Though I am glad that a company did break that old thought of we can't use good ideas that weren't our own. In that aspect they excel at taking good elements and molding them together in a bigger lace. Take the active dodge from here and combine it with the blocking logic from ESO and add in aiming elements from shooters as an example. Housing is actual housing that is both cosmetic and functional at the same time. Commerce, trading, dungeons, competition in gathering, three weight classes that you can mix and match depending on combat styles. No classes, weapons you equip define your skills and options. So they have a lot going and are still adding more. In the beginning and there was a metric ton of running until they added their own waypoint system and refined it over time. They needed mounts but are adding in them in the upcoming release. They have also released a lot of free content over time as they expanded so they gained some goodwill after a quick rise and fall so I wouldn't brush them under any tables.

Is any of that even worth bringing over to gw2/wvw?

I played in one of the betas but I got sick of the pve, it wasn't interesting. I never liked the idea of limited, time scheduled, territory wars. The more opened map stuff like wvw, planetside, eso just seem so much better in serving all players of all types, instead of just an elite/stacked minority.

[Chaba.5410]

19 minutes ago, XenesisII.1540 said:

I never liked the idea of limited, time scheduled, territory wars.

Imagine you build your own bases on "claims".  Now you don't want to lose your bases and all your hard investment in materials you farmed to build them up because you logged out for the night.  So you had to farm another resource and pay upkeep costs to a protection mechanic.  If the protection ran out, someone could take your base.

Now imagine you're on the other side and want a base but everything is claimed already and the owners are really good at the upkeep costs.  Now you're able to declare a war against the owning company.  During this preset time period, you can take their base in a battle even if the upkeep is paid for.  It gives them an opportunity to plan their defense.

Now imagine that wars are declared purposely at certain hours so that it's difficult for one side to wake their players up at 3am in the morning to defend their base (competitive players always figuring out ways to leverage the system to their advantage).  But wait, there's more!  Because we're still trying to solve night-capping, and we can't have night-capping, let's make it so wars get scheduled upon times that both companies agree to, within a certain range of hours.

 

 

Fast forward to beta: well we ripped out the entire base-building concept but we still want territory wars.  And we ripped out the criminal system so that outside players can't "zerg surf" the wars.  This ensures no more than a certain number of players can participate.  Hang on, let's just instance the battles too.

/sigh

Edited November 8, 2023 by Chaba.5410

[Kal Durak.2830]

On 11/2/2023 at 1:44 AM, XenesisII.1540 said:

Most of these players don't care for long sieges, we've gone from 3 hour t3 keep sieges, to breaking and capping them in 5mins because of the constant nerfs to ressing lord, defensive siege nerfs, wall/gate nerfs, supply nerfs.

It is time to nerf the nerfs! 🙂

[Kal Durak.2830]

6 hours ago, TheIceman.1039 said:

Hmm, what next? Add some farming nodes to pvp maps

PVE strikes in the guild hall 😂

[TheGrimm.5624]

8 hours ago, XenesisII.1540 said:

Is any of that even worth bringing over to gw2/wvw?

No. I think they missed their marks in trying to define what makes WvW, WvW. The design concepts they have are is it is a bigger version of sPvP which is why it's not that good. They didn't follow the DAoC or Warhammer guide lines for RvR style combat. Fights needs to be anytime, anywhere its up to the sides to make sure they can handle 24x7 combat which New World and AGS didn't understand. Its also tried to limit how long a WvW fight might take by having a timer which thereby limits how big or long a fight might be which increases the stakes for all sides. So again, they seemed to have a checklist to define the purpose without understanding the actual gameplay. That's not an excuse for ANet to not develop WvW, they are already behind the curve in various aspects.

Simple example, I wouldn't have sponsored GW2 players to try NW and their WvW if there was more WvW development in works here. Food for thought from this Choppa. WAAAGH!

 

[Triptaminas.4789]

Q: where is the guild wars at in gw2?

A: in discord servers 

 

[TheIceman.1039]

On 11/8/2023 at 5:13 AM, Kal Durak.2830 said:

PVE strikes in the guild hall 😂

Steve to guild hall, randomly arrived & chase poor node farmers 😁

[TheGrimm.5624]

9 hours ago, TheIceman.1039 said:

Steve to guild hall, randomly arrived & chase poor node farmers 😁

I would love to able to summon Steve to the guild hall. Would give me something to do while I wait for 2.5 hours to craft 250 siege and stand there watching a bar cross the screen. Could be good dodge practice as well while crafting and gathering. +10 from me.