Remove or fix the sanctum JPs in the WvW Weekly Wizards Vault

[Chaba.5410]

2 minutes ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

These JPs are the ONLY competitive tasks that you can legit lose time on, and that shouldn't be a thing.  

Wrong.  Defend events exist.  WXP gain exists.  You KNOW that time is dependent upon situations.

[Chaba.5410]

1 minute ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

high risk ones like JPs

Which is ironic because every time I've been in the JP there is NO ONE.  What risk?  The risk is again situational.

[Chaba.5410]

Maybe we could have had a real conversation here without the cynicism about delusions.  Sad.

[Gotejjeken.1267]

Just now, Chaba.5410 said:

Maybe we could have had a real conversation here without the cynicism about delusions.  Sad.

It's literally the WvW forums, the only place more cynical is the PvP forums 😂

Anyway:

3 minutes ago, Chaba.5410 said:

Wrong.  Defend events exist.  WXP gain exists.  You KNOW that time is dependent upon situations.

I'm not sure how defend events equate to the time loss of a JP, unless they bug out--and I think we can all agree that isn't normal nor should happen.  People also seem to equally hate defend events for that exact reason, but still, most defend events do not take at least 15 min of concentrated solo effort to possibly have an kitten destroy you at the very end and start throwing 'bless' emotes up.

5 minutes ago, Chaba.5410 said:

Which is ironic because every time I've been in the JP there is NO ONE.  What risk?  The risk is again situational.

Sure, if you are bottom of t4 there may be no one--but I've seen quite a few people in the JP against the higher placed more trolly servers which I won't name but we know who they are. 

They didn't attack me personally, but I have no idea if it's because they know me, know that I roam a lot myself, have 'X of arena' title or whatever, they weren't looking to grief (at that exact moment).  The ones that come after me are mostly thieves in pairs and usually hover around alpine S camp area only--but I digress, personal experience isn't really a case to rest a broad argument on.  

Even if I WAS to base the broad argument on that, I wouldn't want to meet a troll duo theif pair at the end of Obisdian--even though I consider myself decent at outnumbered I don't want to fight that kitten after 15 minutes of jumping.  

I think to sum my entire point up is what others have said--JPs of any kind do not belong in a PvP zone.  If we argue they do, then we need to argue that vault objectives need different weighting--like dodge roll 5 times should not be the same number of acclaim that literal obsidian sanctum is.  

[Chaba.5410]

15 hours ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

I think to sum my entire point up is what others have said--JPs of any kind do not belong in a PvP zone.  If we argue they do, then we need to argue that vault objectives need different weighting--like dodge roll 5 times should not be the same number of acclaim that literal obsidian sanctum is.  

That's a "woulda, coulda, shoulda" conversation.  I'm not trying to argue for why it should be in the game.  Instead, why is it in the game?  What was the developer's intent in putting JPs in?

The OS JP isn't any old PvE JP.  It's clearly designed to be another PvP environment with the traps and fountains.  We can run into playstyle arguments over what's "real" WvW with this.  It's clear to me that it's in the game to offer to players a variety to PvP - somewhere along the lines of WvW being GW2's version of "open world PvP".  Like any other objective in WvW, you're supposed to gather your teammates to help if you encounter pushback.

But back to my original point, no one should get WvW rewards from some activity that doesn't involve the risk of PvP.  The OP said just remove the weekly if the JP can't be made non-combat.  I think the weekly should be removed from WvW if the JP is made non-combat - make it a PvE weekly.  There are plenty of other WvW weeklies to choose from.

Edited November 10, 2023 by Chaba.5410

[Gotejjeken.1267]

2 hours ago, Chaba.5410 said:

But back to my original point, no one should get WvW rewards from some activity that doesn't involve the risk of PvP.  The OP said just remove the weekly if the JP can't be made non-combat.  I think the weekly should be removed from WvW if the JP is made non-combat - make it a PvE weekly.  There are plenty of other WvW weeklies to choose from.

Think we're splitting hairs here--you can get PvE achieves in WvW--all the 'dodge roll', 'loot enemy', 'combo field' ones are green for PvE and I've gotten plenty of those in WvW.  These don't involve actual players, they trigger on NPCs.  

With that in mind, just need to make the JP non-combat--highlighting the wizard vault objective yellow or green is really a non-factor.

I mean, also, we're literally talking about Wizard Vault here which has nothing to do with the 'real' WvW weekly (the one that yields 8 gold for 6 acheives).  There is no JP in the actual WvW weekly achievement section, so no reason to be hardcore about the Vault which is clearly casual minded.  

Because honestly, if we're going to split hairs about this then WvW is the easiest way to get vault objectives even WITH risk of combat.  PvE has way harder JPs, meta events, fractals, etc. in it and PvP has literal touranment as one of the objectives.  

So, it's totally fine just to disable combat in the JP and keep it in rotation as WvW is hybrid PvE anyway--so JPs fit in that regard.  

 

Edited November 10, 2023 by Gotejjeken.1267

[Chaba.5410]

5 minutes ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

Because honestly, if we're going to split hairs about this then WvW is the easiest way to get vault objectives even WITH risk of combat.  PvE has way harder JPs, meta events, fractals, etc. in it and PvP has literal touranment as one of the objectives.  

So, it's totally fine just to disable combat in the JP and keep it in rotation as WvW is hybrid PvE anyway--so JPs fit in that regard.  

 

At which point one must ask, what's the point of even asking for a change to this specific weekly or the way the objective functions?  Why is it totally fine to disable combat for everyone just because some subset of players want the easiest route possible to Astral Acclaim?

[Gotejjeken.1267]

19 minutes ago, Chaba.5410 said:

At which point one must ask, what's the point of even asking for a change to this specific weekly or the way the objective functions?  Why is it totally fine to disable combat for everyone just because some subset of players want the easiest route possible to Astral Acclaim?

Not sure it's the easiest route as you can just avoid it--which I personally do every time it comes up despite being proficient in the art of grief.  

That's kind of my point, the JP is just annoying as hell even if you take combat out of it and is way out of line with all other WvW weeklies (excluding ruby/emerald/pokemon JP on alpine).  

So kinda in conclusion for me here, I don't think putting a griefing mechanism in with a casual reward system leads to good player retention.  A new player is going to go into a JP thinking it's like a PvE JP, get griefed, leave--and WvW never grows.  

At the very least we should be confining griefers against the casual to EOTM, which to me at least is fine, as it's more like a training ground for WvW than anything else.  As its off to side anyway so casuals (in my experience) don't usually choose to go there over a borderland or the sanctum; so, if they do go there and die it's easier to explain what the intent is.

And, it's EOTM so not even griefers want to go there!

EDIT: For the 'combat' for everyone point--we have S camp that's been unofficial duel zone for like 11 years now (can't count the number of times I had to tell new ppl not to stomp there) and soon guild halls--the latter tells me they want 'unofficial' combat out of WvW so I wouldn't be suprised if the JP is next to get it turned off.  

Edited November 10, 2023 by Gotejjeken.1267

[Gazrul.3086]

All that the Obsidian, Azure and Emerald Sanctum need is that we don't lose participation while in those zones, so that we could complete them at our own pace. 

[Zolazie Grengche.3051]

I get PMs from people like OP who are in a competitive mode but just want to get rewards unhindered.

Things like "I'm just trying to get my daily done asswipe!".

The same ones that cry about being pulled because they aren't mounted, or have stab etc.

And it seems the game is going more in the direction of pacifying non-competitive people to make

the mode feel more like PVE.

I hope it stops!

 

 

 

[Zolazie Grengche.3051]

How in the world would we get funny videos to laugh at if that were to happen?!

 

[ZenDrake.8316]

On 11/12/2023 at 4:16 PM, Zolazie Grengche.3051 said:

the mode feel more like PVE.

When I select "WvW weeklies" I don't want to do kittening jumping puzzles. That's PvE. Period.

This weekly is the sole reason why I consider switching to PvE only. I like the rest of the WvW stuff, but getting constantly griefed in a long kitten jumping puzzle is just frustrating. Games aren't supposed to be frustrating.

[Gotejjeken.1267]

On 11/12/2023 at 10:16 AM, Zolazie Grengche.3051 said:

How in the world would we get funny videos to laugh at if that were to happen?!

 

Man 9 years ago looks like this was made in 2001---I really hope whoever made that upgraded their rig since this was taken  😂

Spoiler

The video is ugly

Edited November 13, 2023 by Gotejjeken.1267

[Zephyrus.9680]

In thousands of hours of WvW I've not done the borderlands JP even once. The weekly won't get me to do it either. As long as the weekly can be completed without doing the JP or the "cap 10 shrines" I don't mind much but yes it would be nice to remove it. It's not WvW and has nothing to do with WvW. 

[ArchonWing.9480]

On 11/10/2023 at 1:04 PM, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

Think we're splitting hairs here--you can get PvE achieves in WvW--all the 'dodge roll', 'loot enemy', 'combo field' ones are green for PvE and I've gotten plenty of those in WvW.  These don't involve actual players, they trigger on NPCs.  

With that in mind, just need to make the JP non-combat--highlighting the wizard vault objective yellow or green is really a non-factor.

I mean, also, we're literally talking about Wizard Vault here which has nothing to do with the 'real' WvW weekly (the one that yields 8 gold for 6 acheives).  There is no JP in the actual WvW weekly achievement section, so no reason to be hardcore about the Vault which is clearly casual minded.  

Because honestly, if we're going to split hairs about this then WvW is the easiest way to get vault objectives even WITH risk of combat.  PvE has way harder JPs, meta events, fractals, etc. in it and PvP has literal touranment as one of the objectives.  

So, it's totally fine just to disable combat in the JP and keep it in rotation as WvW is hybrid PvE anyway--so JPs fit in that regard.  

 

I think that is actually why the EOTM/JP rewards rub me the wrong way. It's because they tell players to go to (extremely) dead parts of the game which are really tangentially connected to WvW and have long been abandoned by its creators. So it's on the same tier with the now defunct  veteran creatures one; maybe even less because they don't encourage people to go to the main aka "real" maps. EOTM has almost always been a pve map and now it has worse rewards.

 

One may even suspect they put these in there because they don;t know/care. Perhaps it's some ill-advised attempt to get those areas up and running again but that's not going to happen unless they work on updating the content.  I think if this came out 7-8 years ago there would be much less of a problem. You'd think PvErs would yell the loudest as they've always had when there's an achievement connected to it but the real truth is probably many casual players have unchecked WvW dailies/weeklies entirely and that might be the greatest failing of the WV even if it is objectively superior if you just stick to your own preferred game mode. But not everyone only has 1.  I don't have any pve check because it may send me to do some stupid meta and it becomes a dead spot.

As fot the whole discussion of risk, I may have to ask you all on what that entails. I assume we're talking about the risk of failure and getting nothing, and not getting killed, since dying almost carries no penalty. It should be note that you can pretty much suicide into an objective and as long as you tag enough guards you would get credit as long as your side flips it even if you yourself fail miserably while JP credit is a binary of either you do it or didn't.

Or maybe the risk is from the defense event bugging out? Well, that's more of a game design problem.

Then again, I suppose it is somewhat old school in the sense that the community can work together to solve these problems where people simply help each other though I suppose WvW communities have broken down so much especially on dead servers. It does kinda suck to be on your own sometimes. The modern version of Guild Wars 2 has a severe lack of people proactively asking for help, but then again other people have settled in discord or whatever and don';t communicate with other people.

 

Finally, I'm just thinking this would be a non issue if there were just more options. The selection of weeklies is pretty poor, with some of them being so stupidly easy (heal yourself for a bit) and then you have kitten like 10 defend events. Unless your obsessing over not getting that 50 Astral Acclaim; then nothing will help you. If you play regularly, you will run out of stuff to buy before the season ends so a few hundred AA either way doesn't matter that much.

Edited November 14, 2023 by ArchonWing.9480

[Bigpapasmurf.5623]

I must be a minority....I like WvW and I like JPs. I uaully run this one for my guild and when I get near the mission end spot (under the chest) I get my guildies to port to OS wp and I walk 3 steps and we all get the mission chest. I do it every week and i have run it MANY times.

 

I can count on 2 hands the times ive seen an enemy and can count on 1 hand how many that had to be attacked and ive been in all tiers. I say keep the jp in the rotation xD

[Fishyflakes.5431]

+1

Leave the jumping puzzles for PvE weeklies.

[Ashantara.8731]

On 11/7/2023 at 5:21 AM, Chaba.5410 said:

It's not WvW without some combat.

Yes, but the people coming in later are always going to lose out here, because the groups dedicated to killing everyone are sitting in the pitch-black area of the JP. When you get there, you need to use the torches, and they can just sit there in their safe spots and shoot at those lightsources. It's not a balanced situation like in normal WvW. You are screwed if you can't get ahead of those trolling headhunters.

[Mimizu.7340]

I like the WVW JPs, especially Obsidian Sanctum.

I like to solo it even when it's not in the weeklies, it's a fun way to pass the time whilst waiting in the Q.

There are traps and triggers throughout, so of course people will use them on those following after, that's the point of them.

I have guided many players through it and they are always appreciative.

I have enjoyed delaying many enemy players from completing it.

It's a JP in WVW.

Terms and Conditions Apply.

[Bunbury.8472]

tfw you go into the PvP mode and someone starts doing a whole entire PvP on top of you

oh no, and even worse it was the group PvP mode you entered and now a group of people start to PvP at you- right at you!!!

oh my gosh how could this have happened!!!

🧐 🤔 😮 

why are these people in the group PvP mode doing group PvP!!!??? toxic!!??!?!

Edited November 15, 2023 by Bunbury.8472

[Chaba.5410]

6 hours ago, Ashantara.8731 said:

Yes, but the people coming in later are always going to lose out here, because the groups dedicated to killing everyone are sitting in the pitch-black area of the JP. When you get there, you need to use the torches, and they can just sit there in their safe spots and shoot at those lightsources. It's not a balanced situation like in normal WvW. You are screwed if you can't get ahead of those trolling headhunters.

Bring friends. Kill them. Or do it off hours like every other WvW map. Numbers and coverage game.

Edited November 15, 2023 by Chaba.5410

[Zekent.3652]

PvE weeklies: chill, pve, some tasks, usual things.

PvP: literally just play PvP and its all done.

WvW: a JP (???)

And your activity bar just goes lower while trying lol.

Just remove it from the weekly, JPs are not even WvW anyways.

Edited November 15, 2023 by Zekent.3652

[Ashantara.8731]

6 hours ago, Chaba.5410 said:

Bring friends. Kill them. Or do it off hours like every other WvW map. Numbers and coverage game.

I'm not the one with an issue here, I was merely trying to explain the situation. 😄

[Chaba.5410]

3 hours ago, Ashantara.8731 said:

I'm not the one with an issue here, I was merely trying to explain the situation. 😄

True. Maybe the one with the issue will read our responses. xD

[Ashantara.8731]

1 hour ago, Chaba.5410 said:

True. Maybe the one with the issue will read our responses. xD

😄 Maybe.

It's a shame, though, that people find joy in creating unfair fight conditions like that. Not even in PvP will you find any such spot where you can "farm" other players. Whenever Obsidian Sanctum is a Weekly Guild Mission, I either do it at night (if I happen to be awake) or right after a patch (where you can rush ahead and escape any trolls). The pitch-black area is usually my favorite, but not with evil-minded enemies lurking in the dark. 🤪