Armed with Dual Pistols, Guardians Rain Down Bullets of Justice!

[draxynnic.3719]

Justify it however you like, you're still demanding that an otherwise ranged weapon have a key skill that forces it into melee (especially if using any other offhand) for the sake of ultra-casuals who are completely allergic to ground-targeted skills and yet still play a profession that's full of them. I don't know what percentage of the player base that is, but I'm pretty sure it starts with a decimal point followed by a few zeros.

[Gaiawolf.8261]

This whole thread has turned into an awful lot of speculation for a skill we haven't seen yet, especially for making "objective" claims. I suppose it's entirely possible that the strike damage and 1s of burning from the symbol only happen on a pulse with an icd. So only 1s proc per source per second. While an attack firing through the symbol, where "through"  means it has to leave the symbol, has no icd. So firing through/out of the symbol can potentially yield several stacks of burning per second from a single source. 

Would that be objectively better? Kitten no, I'm not going to make that claim until I see it in action. I'll find out on Tuesday. So will the rest of you. 

On a further note, I actually like that execution even though I completely pulled it out of my kitten as an off/possible chance from the rather sparse description we were given. It would mean different uses for the symbol without one always being superior to the other, depending on other symbol procs from weapon and trait choices. 

Edit: I know I said through/out of the symbol, but I really meant from you. Crossing the symbol's edge could mean through, whether that's entering or leaving. So even when fighting in melee for the pulse procs, allies could benefit from firing into the symbol with no icd. This is more speculation, of course, since I'm not even sure if the symbol registers attacks from allies. 

Edited November 24, 2023 by Gaiawolf.8261

[Arken.3725]

1 hour ago, Gaiawolf.8261 said:

This whole thread has turned into an awful lot of speculation for a skill we haven't seen yet, especially for making "objective" claims. I suppose it's entirely possible that the strike damage and 1s of burning from the symbol only happen on a pulse with an icd. So only 1s proc per source per second. While an attack firing through the symbol, where "through"  means it has to leave the symbol, has no icd. So firing through/out of the symbol can potentially yield several stacks of burning per second from a single source. 

Would that be objectively better? Kitten no, I'm not going to make that claim until I see it in action. I'll find out on Tuesday. So will the rest of you. 

On a further note, I actually like that execution even though I completely pulled it out of my kitten as an off/possible chance from the rather sparse description we were given. It would mean different uses for the symbol without one always being superior to the other, depending on other symbol procs from weapon and trait choices. 

Edit: I know I said through/out of the symbol, but I really meant from you. Crossing the symbol's edge could mean through, whether that's entering or leaving. So even when fighting in melee for the pulse procs, allies could benefit from firing into the symbol with no icd. This is more speculation, of course, since I'm not even sure if the symbol registers attacks from allies. 

Because when you look at the history of released Guardian Weaponry(from an spvp standpoint), you can easily spot how bad the new weapons actually are.

- MH Axe was never utilized on FB

- Dh overall was and is still a meme and does anyone utilized LB in PvE?

- WB OH Sword is so bad It's not even used in PvE

Based on ALL of the newly released weapons, it's reasonable to believe that both MH and OH pistols will be bad as well.

Edited November 24, 2023 by Arken.3725

[Gaiawolf.8261]

4 hours ago, Arken.3725 said:

Because when you look at the history of released Guardian Weaponry(from an spvp standpoint), you can easily spot how bad the new weapons actually are.

- MH Axe was never utilized on FB

- Dh overall was and is still a meme and does anyone utilized LB in PvE?

- WB OH Sword is so bad It's not even used in PvE

Based on ALL of the newly released weapons, it's reasonable to believe that both MH and OH pistols will be bad as well.

Fair, but outside a few outliers, content is not usually generated for competitive modes, and this coming from a WVW player. 🙄

[Arken.3725]

1 hour ago, Gaiawolf.8261 said:

Fair, but outside a few outliers, content is not usually generated for competitive modes, and this coming from a WVW player. 🙄

You are absolutely correct!  However, when even in the most popular mode(PvE) they're not even used....It couldn't get more obvious.  

[Gaiawolf.8261]

On 11/24/2023 at 8:22 PM, Arken.3725 said:

You are absolutely correct!  However, when even in the most popular mode(PvE) they're not even used....It couldn't get more obvious.  

I think both scepter and longbow are definitely neglected, and probably MH sword #3 and OH sword too. They need help. Axe, focus, and shield are in a good place for 1h weapons. Mace and staff have their places but could be more versatile. Fixes to Radiant Fire and shortening the animation or pulsing cleansing and burning for Cleansing Flame could make torch good. MH sword #3 is a disaster, to emphasize again. 

Edited June 4 by Gaiawolf.8261
Yay! MH sword #3 was fixed.

[Arken.3725]

On 11/24/2023 at 5:54 PM, Gaiawolf.8261 said:

I think both scepter and longbow are definitely neglected, and probably MH sword #3 and OH sword too. They need help. Axe, focus, and shield are in a good place for 1h weapons. Mace and staff have their places but could be more versatile. Fixes to Radiant Fire and shortening the animation or pulsing cleansing and burning for Cleansing Flame could make torch good. MH sword #3 is a disaster, to emphasize again. 

Here's an honest question that I hope receives an honest answer:  Can you or anyone here, tell me one single "complete" Guardian weapon?  And by complete I mean there's nothing wrong with any part of the kit and that all skills are solid.  I honestly cannot.  I can easily name such weapons on other classes for example: 

Ranger Great sword, Revenant Great sword, Revenant Staff, Revenant MH and OH Sword, Necro MH Axe, Pistol, Scepter for example.  I could name far more but you get the idea.  

And as I've said that I cannot name a single, complete weapon-kit; this feels like a guarantee that Pistol MH and OH will be terrible.  I speak strictly for Spvp.

Edited November 26, 2023 by Arken.3725

[Gaiawolf.8261]

11 minutes ago, Arken.3725 said:

Here's an honest question that I hope receives an honest answer:  Can you or anyone here, tell me one single "complete" Guardian weapon?  And by complete I mean there's nothing wrong with any part of the kit and that all skills are solid.  I honestly cannot.  I can easily name such weapons on other classes for example: 

Ranger Great sword, Revenant Great sword, Revenant Staff, Revenant MH and OH Sword, Necro MH Axe, Pistol, Scepter for example.  I could name far more but you get the idea.  

And as I've said that I cannot name a single, complete weapon-kit; this feels like a guarantee that Pistol MH and OH will be terrible.  I speak strictly for Spvp.

Shield, focus, staff, and axe. Mace is good at what it does but could be a bit more versatile, so people would use it on more content. I don't use greatsword, so I can't speak for it, but I have friends who like it. OH sword is a decent play for WVW. 

Also, you like swords for rev? Oof 

[Arken.3725]

11 minutes ago, Gaiawolf.8261 said:

Shield, focus, staff, and axe. Mace is good at what it does but could be a bit more versatile, so people would use it on more content. I don't use greatsword, so I can't speak for it, but I have friends who like it. OH sword is a decent play for WVW. 

Also, you like swords for rev? Oof 

I'll refute this the best way I can with respect, of course

Focus:  Too long of cd's, obvious animation, only dmg with no utility.  This kit kind of sucks.  Compare it to say Focus on Necro that does MORE damage, removes boons and chills.

Staff:  The symbol itself makes this kit less than perfect.  Symbols are a useless, boring mechanic that don't belong in a game like GW2.  

Axe:  Auto-attack is too slow, symbol cast also, too slow. 

Mace:  This weapon is just garbage.  Incredibly slow AA, same with the symbol(which by the way, is useless) and Protector's strike sometimes doesn't even trigger.

This is all from an spvp perspective.

Edited November 26, 2023 by Arken.3725

[Gaiawolf.8261]

5 minutes ago, Arken.3725 said:

I'll refute this the best way I can with respect, of course

Focus:  Too long of cd's, obvious animation, only dmg with no utility.  This kit kind of sucks.  Compare it to say Focus on Necro that does MORE damage, removes boons and chills.

Staff:  The symbol itself makes this kit less than perfect.  Symbols are a useless, boring mechanic that don't belong in a game like GW2.  

Axe:  Auto-attack is too slow, symbol cast also, too slow. 

Mace:  This weapon is just garbage.  Incredibly slow AA, same with the symbol(which by the way, is useless) and Protector's strike sometimes doesn't even trigger.

This is all from an spvp perspective.

Can't speak to this since I don't play sPVP. All these weapons are used to good effect in either PVE, WVW, or both. Some are meta. 

[draxynnic.3719]

On 11/25/2023 at 3:43 AM, Gaiawolf.8261 said:

This whole thread has turned into an awful lot of speculation for a skill we haven't seen yet, especially for making "objective" claims. I suppose it's entirely possible that the strike damage and 1s of burning from the symbol only happen on a pulse with an icd. So only 1s proc per source per second. While an attack firing through the symbol, where "through"  means it has to leave the symbol, has no icd. So firing through/out of the symbol can potentially yield several stacks of burning per second from a single source. 

Would that be objectively better? Kitten no, I'm not going to make that claim until I see it in action. I'll find out on Tuesday. So will the rest of you. 

On a further note, I actually like that execution even though I completely pulled it out of my kitten as an off/possible chance from the rather sparse description we were given. It would mean different uses for the symbol without one always being superior to the other, depending on other symbol procs from weapon and trait choices. 

Edit: I know I said through/out of the symbol, but I really meant from you. Crossing the symbol's edge could mean through, whether that's entering or leaving. So even when fighting in melee for the pulse procs, allies could benefit from firing into the symbol with no icd. This is more speculation, of course, since I'm not even sure if the symbol registers attacks from allies. 

That's pretty much what I'm expecting it to be based on how it's described. However, it's pretty easy to see how a foot-targeted symbol with this behaviour is leaving damage on the table if you don't have the opportunity to run in and drop it at the enemy's feet. As I said previously, we all know that in PvE at least, it's going to be balanced at least partially by golem benchmark numbers, so any damage the symbol does will be included in the damage numbers.

Ergo, I think it would be more practical overall if it it can either be placed at range (the combo effect would still work that way, and would work better for non-projectile ranged attacks, as seen with most current guardian offhand weapon skills) or if it's made so that no significant damage requires the enemy to be within the symbol.

[Gaiawolf.8261]

10 minutes ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

That's pretty much what I'm expecting it to be based on how it's described. However, it's pretty easy to see how a foot-targeted symbol with this behaviour is leaving damage on the table if you don't have the opportunity to run in and drop it at the enemy's feet. As I said previously, we all know that in PvE at least, it's going to be balanced at least partially by golem benchmark numbers, so any damage the symbol does will be included in the damage numbers.

Ergo, I think it would be more practical overall if it it can either be placed at range (the combo effect would still work that way, and would work better for non-projectile ranged attacks, as seen with most current guardian offhand weapon skills) or if it's made so that no significant damage requires the enemy to be within the symbol.

That's entirely possible, maybe even probable. I'm not making judgments until Tuesday. 

Edit: I will say I'm tired of ranged weapons that are better in melee range for this profession. 

Edited November 26, 2023 by Gaiawolf.8261

[draxynnic.3719]

Based on the livestream, it looks like it's even more important to have the enemy inside the symbol than I thought. There is no justification for it to be foot-targeted unless pistol is intended to be a skirmishing weapon, but they still tried to call it a 'long range' weapon.

Annnd they're bringing back 'press button again to tell moving projectile where to detonate' mechanics as if they weren't progressively removed over time for good reason.

[Fueki.4753]

Based on the Live Stream record I saw, it looks like dropping the Symbol and quite literally burning enemies down with the volley on ability 4 will feel nice and satisfying. And if they survive long enough to enter melee range, the Symbol itself can do additional damage to them.

Edited November 28, 2023 by Fueki.4753

[ZephidelGRS.9520]

4 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Based on the livestream, it looks like it's even more important to have the enemy inside the symbol than I thought. There is no justification for it to be foot-targeted unless pistol is intended to be a skirmishing weapon, but they still tried to call it a 'long range' weapon.

It was showcased that the Symbol burns regardless if it spawns underneath the enemies or under your feet. The only condition is that either the enemies stand inside it, or you shoot something through its AoE (at around 57:19 of the video when he stood inside the Symbol and started shooting the golems).

[draxynnic.3719]

2 hours ago, ZephidelGRS.9520 said:

It was showcased that the Symbol burns regardless if it spawns underneath the enemies or under your feet. The only condition is that either the enemies stand inside it, or you shoot something through its AoE (at around 57:19 of the video when he stood inside the Symbol and started shooting the golems).

Only if you're shooting a projectile - which the second skill isn't. Did you notice that they only used skill 4 to demonstrate shooting through the symbol, not skill 2, and when they demonstrated skill 2 triggering burning, the enemy was in the symbol? I did. We'll find out in a few hours, but the impression I had was that even the projectiles will trigger more burning stacks if the target is within the symbol.

And anyone who's paid attention to how balance is done knows that in PvE at least, it WILL be balanced at least partially according to the ideal golem scenario, which means the "ranged" weapon is going to have its damage normalised according to however many burning stacks a Snowcrows benchmark can pull off against a golem. In melee.

The mechanics need to be reconsidered. Make it ground-targeted or enemy-targeted, or make it purely a "while standing in the symbol, your attacks inflict burning" effect.

Edited November 28, 2023 by draxynnic.3719

[Vennyhedgie.5369]

These looked pretty neat on the preview but I feel like the guardian bias was showing STRONG on this one. Particularly the auto attack.

Pistols generally are a single target weapon. Engie's autoattack used to bleed on all targets hits by the explosion and that was removed because it was deemed too strong back in the day. Thief has to invest into a trait just to get the piercing on the pistols, but it comes with a 5% damage reduction for reasons. Even the new ele pistol's new "Piercing Pebble" doesn't even pierce! So seeing the pierce here, I get why it's there, as it's good for justice, but even then you probably shouldn't be able to pierce more than 3 targets, and it's going up to 5.

[draxynnic.3719]

Well, we can test it now:

Skill 2 inflicts more burning if the enemy is in the symbol than if you're in the symbol. Interestingly, though, even in the latter case it inflicts one more stack than if there's no symbol at all. Seems like standing in the symbol attaches an extra stack of burning to skill activation, but the enemy being in the symbol applies an extra stack per strike. So if you're not using the pistol offhand and you're at range, you'd want to auto while on the symbol and use skill 2 on either side of using the symbol.

Skill 4 seems to inflict about the same amount of burning - instead of doubling up, the projectile combo effect seems to replace the 'pulse burning if the enemy is in the symbol' effect. So if you're running dual pistols, you can use skill 4 and get the same number of burn stacks regardless of who the symbol is on.

However, the symbol, like other symbols, does have a substantial power coefficient. On something like trailblazer or ritualist, this won't make much difference. On celestial, carrion, or any glass build, though, it's going to matter. So any DPS build is going to want to be dropping the symbol on the enemy.

For pistol to be a good ranged weapon, it needs to be targetable at range, or to be redesigned so there isn't any significant damage relying on the enemy being in the symbol. Otherwise it will be a skirmishing weapon at best.

[Arken.3725]

Spvp analysis:

The weapon itself is fun and new but rather mid.  Guardian weaponry as a whole is pretty terrible so when we finally get something not-so-terrible, we celebrate.  The weapon actually tracks.....that alone makes it far more enjoyable than say Scepter or Torch or even LB in some cases.  

#1:  The Auto-attack actually hits.....wow.  Damage is pretty low but at least it hits.

#2:  Solid beam with good burn and decent power.

#3:  Symbol......it's just terrible.

#4:  Good damage and some soft-cc.

#5:  Does no damage, long charge-time.  Really cool-looking skill just its payoff isn't worth the charge-up.

A score of 3/5 is what I'd give this weapon.  It's nothing special and when you have below-average weapons to start with, this feels like a blessing when it really.....isn't

[Sahfur.5612]

I like pistol overall as it is a good fit for burn stuff and is good against groups without being overtuned vs single players. It is a good change.

[Sonork.2916]

Pistols are fun. 

No real complaints other than charging pistol 5 isn't worth the time for what it does.  I'd make a fully charged pistol 5 shot unblockable so at least it won't be eaten by 1 of many block/shield/reflect effects in wvw/pvp and apply aoe burning so you get some dmg from it.  Also pistol 5 full charged could be a knockdown or pull in effect rather than another knockback, at least when fully charged.

[Arken.3725]

Another bit of feedback:

Swap the #2 skill with the #4 skill.  As it stands, you're forced to run both MH and OH pistols to combo well with the symbol(3 and then 4 respectively).  This would allow you to combo with just the MH Pistol and give you more freedom.

[Supernova Starr.2069]

I don't know if it was already said in this topic but I've been doing some math with the info we already have and things are looking grimm for pistols.

Pistol Guardian might be just a meme if anet do not touch any core traits, or even elite specs.

"Dual Pistols will be great for condi willbender" but I fail to understand the design here since F1 forces you to melee while pistols don't have any defensive skill to follow up the gap close, you'd be very exposed in WvW/PvP in a already exposed elite spec, meanwhile it could work in PvE since meta is "stack on boss regardless your range", also guardian utilitys barely have any range dps options besides Purging Flames and Sword of Justice, 

While I'm at it, condi builds haven't recovered yet from Power of the Virtuous catastrophic and unexplained nerf, which it will affect pistols badly, remaining options could be dual pistol firebrand (I don't know how it would work) and core guardian (might be bullied out of the party/squad for running core in 2024).

DH is not an option since it's heavily focused on pdps.

Edited December 27, 2023 by Supernova Starr.2069

[Gaiawolf.8261]

7 hours ago, Supernova Starr.2069 said:

I don't know if it was already said in this topic but I've been doing some math with the info we already have and things are looking grimm for pistols.

Pistol Guardian might be just a meme if anet do not touch any core traits, or even elite specs.

"Dual Pistols will be great for condi willbender" but I fail to understand the design here since F1 forces you to melee while pistols don't have any defensive skill to follow up the gap close, you'd be very exposed in WvW/PvP in a already exposed elite spec, meanwhile it could work in PvE since meta is "stack on boss regardless your range", also guardian utilitys barely have any range dps options besides Purging Flames and Sword of Justice, 

While I'm at it, condi builds haven't recovered yet from Power of the Virtuous catastrophic and unexplained nerf, which it will affect pistols badly, remaining options could be dual pistol firebrand (I don't know how it would work) and core guardian (might be bullied out of the party/squad for running core in 2024).

DH is not an option since it's heavily focused on pdps.

Willbender flames don't cancel each other out anymore. The typical rotation in WVW at least is F3>immobilize>F1>burst skills. F3 procs cover you, while F1 procs deal out the damage. Best used after you make them blow their stun break/cleanse. 

Note that you can weapon swap at the end of F1 for an animation cancel. I imagine this is when you swap to a pistol or 2 for the burst. Also since you'll be on your other set to use the root. 

Edited December 28, 2023 by Gaiawolf.8261

[SoulGuardian.6203]

Sorry.

Nevermind.

Edited May 2 by SoulGuardian.6203