Thief Stealth is Truly OP As You Can Get [Merged]

[Caffynated.5713]

3 hours ago, Palikka.8249 said:

I know confuse emotes from thiefs keep coming, but stealth mechanic in this game is absolutely stupid. Opponent just wait your mistake, that is extremely stupid. Also thief can reset fight anytime he/she wants. I know thiefs defend this, becouse they dont want to lose this ability.

There is reason why for example FoW just stacks 3-5 thiefs and camp near borderland spawns. Its easy to farm kills that way.

They're thieves. Anything with a tiny amount of complexity confuses and terrifies them. That's why they play thief. 

[Gotejjeken.1267]

2 hours ago, Caffynated.5713 said:

They're thieves. Anything with a tiny amount of complexity confuses and terrifies them. That's why they play thief. 

If you want something fun, randomly whisper a thief and ask them why they play the class.  Most defensive responses I've ever seen, and I've done it four to five times now at random in WvW 😂.

[Arya Whitefire.8423]

WVW is basically a bullying simulator.  Stack up every advantage you can find, and pwn some newbs!.  So stealth fits right in.

[Arheundel.6451]

23 hours ago, Zevelon.6512 said:

And thiefs are squishy as f . So stealth is there defence and it has its trade offs a good thief can make you crybabys make tons of posts here on how op stealth is when the reason you want think that is that your skill cap is maxed on very low. In conclusion get good.

I got good...I play cele condi and now I watch thieves either die or run....while I laugh or jump ..am I good enough now?

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

On 11/17/2023 at 10:05 PM, Jitters.9401 said:

I have been playing thief again more than the other professions I have, I still refuse to abuse stealth, but I know very well how it works. Let me enlighten non thief players what the professional thief players do not want you to know because:

(1) It takes away the concept of them being skilled.

(2) They do not want to lose the OP'ness of the thief.

Alright, I'll bite.

On 11/17/2023 at 10:05 PM, Jitters.9401 said:

Sooooo. Here It Is

(1) Every 3.2 seconds I can hit you for 5k damage. I am only visible for a fraction of a second and almost nothing you can do about it. I say 3.2 seconds as a guestimate, But I can time my hit so I am visible for just a blip on your screen and you take a 5k hit The best thieves you fight do this.

Okay non-thief folks, if you aren't familiar with the skills talked about, read the wiki links I post before you continue reading. 

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Cloak_and_Dagger spam then. So we're not talking about the D/P daredevil dash meta build (the one that usually gets complained about) or the deadeye meta build (the other problematic stealth build), but a glass sword or dual dagger build which rarely if ever gets seen outside of WvW, and hasn't been meta in PvP since vanilla (anyone remember Sizer? Cheese mode? yeah). Just to clarify, that means the OP is NOT talking about a build that uses https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Black_Powder.

On 11/17/2023 at 10:05 PM, Jitters.9401 said:

(2) Thieves can hit you AND be in stealth. No Reveal for any amount of time. It is actually part of the game mechanics. No exploit needed. It is a 1 time action though. Any additional attack will reveal the thief, but the original one... The thief stays in stealth. Not a Cloak and Dagger hit. Something much quicker and deadlier to use. They just do not want you to know about it.

Not https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Cloak_and_Dagger? Well, I'd suggest looking through https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Stealth and noticing that there is NO OTHER THIEF WEAPON SKILL that does what the OP is describing. So name the skill OP, or I don't believe you, and that's not me "posturing as a gatekeeper of a secret I don't want to see the light of day so I can pretend to be good" or whatever. Seriously, call my bluff and tell everyone, I'd be happy if you did. 

On 11/17/2023 at 10:05 PM, Jitters.9401 said:

(3) Those stealth thieves trait so they actually can stay near 100% initiative.  I can hit you you for 5k+, and repeat every few seconds, stay at near full to full initiative, and stay in stealth so much, that I am only a blip on the screen. How many  people can take that much damage in such a short intervals?

Okay, so the fact your "technique" allows the thief to stay at 100% initiative means they don't use any weapon skills besides the one they use to simultaneously hit for 5k and enter stealth. So, let's give you the benefit of the doubt, and say that you're not using cloak and dagger. You attack pattern is identical to cloak an dagger spam, and is countered in the same way: counting to three. I'm going to assume that anyone reading this can count to three, right? Good. 

In order to maintain stealth as you described, the thief must hit the target in the 0.2s part of the 3.2s damage interval described by the OP earlier. If they attack again within 3s, stealth will not have expired and the thief will reveal themselves, opening them to attack. The stealth only lasts for 3s so if they attack after the 3.2s window they are giving you more time to react to the thief being out of stealth, and potentially counter. This means you know exactly when the attack is coming. It's not difficult to dodge or block on that timing once you realise what the thief is doing, and assuming you have a halfway decent build/you know your defensive skills. 

Secondly, the thief must be in melee range to do this (unless the OP wants to elaborate on how he's doing this without cloak and dagger). You can get free damage in on the thief while you dodge, block etc by casting any persistant AoE, marks, traps etc that will last until after the thief's next attack interval. You can also wait for the strike then use weapon swap with geomancy/doom/hydromancy/air sigils to force some instant cast damage on the thief while you know they can't evade. I used to do this on trailblazer specter with https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Thousand_Needles and on swap condi sigils. Revenant, ele and necro in particular can make good use of this tactic when supported by various traits. 

The thief now has three choices: Not attack, and let stealth expire, attack with cloak and dagger and eat the incoming damage, or try to improvise (like using steal mid dodge to clear traps/marks while evading and also closing the gap). All three options turn the war of attrition against the thief, and limit the stealth opportunities from this tactic. And this is all assuming you don't have some sort of reveal skill: if you do, counter the thief's damage as desctibed above then use the reveal skill when the thief is exposed. If you are a herald or engi, you don't even have to do that: just attack on the thief's damage interval as you know he won't be able to dodge the skill while hitting you, then spike him while he's low. 

On 11/17/2023 at 10:05 PM, Jitters.9401 said:

Right now I am on EBG running glass. Less than 14k hitpoints. If I get attacked by a group, I can and will easily escape. If I get into a 1v1 fight, 100% guarantee I will not die. I should win easy enough, but on that rare occasion it looks bad, I can just escape. Even Rangers will stealth more than I will. That is how OP I find it, that I will only use it rarely.

So Do not let thief mains say how stealth is not OP. My point #2 alone negates that, but as a whole. Yeah. Thief with stealth is as OP as you can get.

 

I wrote this because of all the thieves in the thief forum going on about skill and how stealth is not OP, and that people who complain about it are just whining. No no no. If you hate stealth, you have a very good reason to hate stealth. 

 

People hate stealth because it has the illusion of being unfair. If you understand it and it's limitations, you can use that to your advantage as I've described. That won't stop people like the Gandara Soulbeast I fought in EB yesterday from reporting me for expoits because they lost to a thief and don't understand why they lost (I was playing condi Sc/P with deadly arts, Trick and DD, so only stealth is blasting black powder). A player's issue with stealth being unfair may be a valid issue, but a player's issue with thief just because they don't like the class is 100% an attitude issue. 

Edited November 19, 2023 by Jugglemonkey.8741

[nuggetjr.6571]

I assume he is talking about getting two full stealth cycles out of a single black powder. You bp, heartseeker into the enemy and you are now in stealth and have damaged them. Then you wait 3 seconds and right as stealth is dropping, get another heartseeker through the same black powder and land it again. You are still in stealth and only visible for a fraction of a second.

 

This tactic relies on the enemy being close to your black powder or you having teleports ready to land the hs. 

 

It also doesn't hit 5k unless they are already under the health thresholds for heartseeker. You also get ini, stealth cleanses, blinds for free. 

 

How do they fix this? Well, they could make revealed on any damage regardless of if you were in stealth or not. But that is a huge nerf and breaks combos and they'd need some buffs to compensate. 

Edited November 19, 2023 by nuggetjr.6571

[Morena.9312]

I mean peoples really still cry about thief these days? When there are Pepe Mesmers around, Willbenders and Celestial abusers?  Pepe Renegades spamming their Shortbow and instagib thiefs easily..

Thief is a joke. It is good at roaming and that was it. Funny when some blobbers cry because thief runs away when they come with blob for killing 1 thief.  😅

 

[Gotejjeken.1267]

18 hours ago, Arya Whitefire.8423 said:

WVW is basically a bullying simulator.  Stack up every advantage you can find, and pwn some newbs!.  So stealth fits right in.

This is pretty accurate.  Actual roaming has been dead for years, and for a while it got replaced by ganking until cele/boon/EoD specs showed up, now it's just groups of people standing outside keeps/spawn all day waiting for someone to go to the sentry and then jumping them.  

Thieves are usually part of this equation, but now they aren't the main attraction but supplemental to hit you while you can't defend. 

It's a common combo, mobility + tank--yesterday ran into it but not thief, rather core necro + wb--massive amount of condis and what mobility the necro didn't have, the WB did--and it was necro so they'd just do the spectral grasp pull / bomb and if you live, the WB chase you down, etc. etc.

Edited November 19, 2023 by Gotejjeken.1267

[Zacchary.6183]

On 11/17/2023 at 5:05 PM, Jitters.9401 said:

I have been playing thief again more than the other professions I have,

You spent an entire day showing you had no clue what you were talking about on the thief forums and then disappeared immediately after I grilled you for this gem: 

 

[Ferus.3165]

On 11/17/2023 at 11:12 PM, Justine.6351 said:

It's because anet nerfed damage across the board so much that they can make many mistakes and still stealth their way out of it. There are only so many ranged skills that don't require a target that can be laid across a black powder.

wrong. when u do that u are just waisting your cooldowns, that is only an option if u heavily outnumber the thief.

thieves are barely visible so u cannot ever react to them or go on the offensive. The only "counter" is to play heavy sustain builds so they cannot kill you but a good thief won't die vs anybody. It's also the only class that can reliably fight 1vx fights cause you just can't hit them ever. And if they come out of stealth it's because you are already so low/blew so many cds that u cannot do anything to them anymore. this was not different before the feb2020 patch. Stealth is just giga broken in this game. especially when u combine it with the best mobility and heavy burst too.

[SweetPotato.7456]

On 11/19/2023 at 1:35 AM, Palikka.8249 said:

I know confuse emotes from thiefs keep coming, but stealth mechanic in this game is absolutely stupid. Opponent just wait your mistake, that is extremely stupid. Also thief can reset fight anytime he/she wants. I know thiefs defend this, becouse they dont want to lose this ability.

There is reason why for example FoW just stacks 3-5 thiefs and camp near borderland spawns. Its easy to farm kills that way.

really, wanna bet there are more confused emoji supporting this thread vs the one against it. 

[Ferus.3165]

On 11/18/2023 at 3:51 PM, Axelteas.7192 said:

Pick a what you call OP stealth thief, and do a 1v1 vs a willbender and see what happens, tell me who is the GODMODE

 

A thief is weaker, more squishy and dont have as much cleanses... stealth is the only natural advantage and should never be criticized.

if you lose to a wb as a thief you suck. Simple as that. Thief hardcounters wb.

Edited November 20, 2023 by Ferus.3165

[Kuya.6495]

Stealth is annoying but I find not all stealth users use it to its maximum potential and they can be punished for it. However, what really irritates me is the 2-3 thieves pack roaming/camping. Just an absolutely awful experience having to put up with 2-3 stealth users at once. Absolutely nothing you can do at that point even if you are better than they are.

Fighting one stealth user requires so much of your attention and focus already. More than one is just impossible to keep track of.

Edited November 20, 2023 by Kuya.6495

[Jitters.9401]

On 11/18/2023 at 2:18 AM, Zevelon.6512 said:

Ye i bet you play thief by the amount of non existing mechanics you talk about.There is a little debuff called Reviled it lasts 5sec (not a guess a fact) and it affects your thief every time you exit stealth (when in combat) so perma stealth like you say exist only in your dreams, also every attack you do when in stealth and i mean EVERY attack that hits a target will get you out of stealth and Revile you for 5 sec. Just cuz you hate thief does not give you the right to pose as one just to push your agenda. 

The perfect example of someone who pretends to play a thief, but in all actuality has absolutely no clue how the thief works.

(1) Even if you are in combat, when you let the stealth timer die out on its own (you don't attack while you are stealthed...  DUHHH!!!) you will not become revealed. You can stealth immediately.

(2) I will not post how to do an attack and remain in stealth. The last thing we need is a bunch more people playing this highly OP, high reward, and very low risk profession. Like I said before. The best thieves know this mechanic. The fact that this guy does not know it means He Is Not One Of The Best Thieves, Let Alone A Good One.

(3) This guy has absolutely zero understanding of whatever he reads. If I write Cow, he swears up and down I wrote horse. If I write sit, he swears up and down I wrote Stand. If I say "do not attack while in stealth (which I have done), this guy thinks I wrote "Attack from stealth". Like zero comprehension.

I am about to go in the game and play my thief who will stealth no more than 6 seconds per minute. Far less than even rangers do.

I hate how abusive the OP stealth is. I still play a thief.     

LoLoLoLoL   Get a grip and learn to understand what you read.

[Jitters.9401]

2 hours ago, Ferus.3165 said:

The only "counter" is to play heavy sustain builds so they cannot kill you but a good thief won't die vs anybody. It's also the only class that can reliably fight 1vx fights cause you just can't hit them ever. And if they come out of stealth it's because you are already so low/blew so many cds that u cannot do anything to them anymore. this was not different before the feb2020 patch. Stealth is just giga broken in this game. especially when u combine it with the best mobility and heavy burst too.

This!!!

[Jitters.9401]

3 hours ago, Zacchary.6183 said:

You spent an entire day showing you had no clue what you were talking about on the thief forums and then disappeared immediately after I grilled you for this gem: 

LoL

Humor Me. Point out one thing I said that was incorrect. 

Edited November 20, 2023 by Jitters.9401

[Zacchary.6183]

43 minutes ago, Jitters.9401 said:

LoL

Humor Me. Point out one thing I said that was incorrect. 

I already did in that thread.

[Zekent.3652]

Oh boy, thief mains are pretending that they play a way too complex and fair class again 😭

Everybody knows that stealth spam thief is just the safest and best roammer, and it's funny how these posts always triggers the thief mains lol.

Thief is just the safest and the best WvW roammer since ages, stop thinking that thieves are victims here. The thief bias is getting out of hands dude😭.

[Zacchary.6183]

2 hours ago, Zekent.3652 said:

Oh boy, thief mains are pretending that they play a way too complex and fair class again 😭

Everybody knows that stealth spam thief is just the safest and best roammer, and it's funny how these posts always triggers the thief mains lol.

Thief is just the safest and the best WvW roammer since ages, stop thinking that thieves are victims here. The thief bias is getting out of hands dude😭.

WvW is about boonblobbing and PvDoor. You want "fair PvP"? Go play the highly sterilized sPvP or pick up thief yourself.

[Burial.1958]

2 hours ago, Zekent.3652 said:

Oh boy, thief mains are pretending that they play a way too complex and fair class again 😭

Everybody knows that stealth spam thief is just the safest and best roammer, and it's funny how these posts always triggers the thief mains lol.

Thief is just the safest and the best WvW roammer since ages, stop thinking that thieves are victims here. The thief bias is getting out of hands dude😭.

Gw 2 WvW isn't balanced around roaming, never was, never will be. 

[Zekent.3652]

4 minutes ago, Burial.1958 said:

Gw 2 WvW isn't balanced around roaming, never was, never will be. 

So we good when they nerf soulbeast's WvW roam on Halloween's patch, but thief mains gets nervous whenever someone calls that thief's stealth spam is strong for roam 🗿.

 

• One Wolf Pack: Reduced the duration from 8 seconds to 6 seconds in WvW only. Increased the strike interval from 0.25 seconds to 0.5 seconds in WvW only. Reduced the power coefficient from 0.63 to 0.5 in WvW only.

 

[Justine.6351]

8 hours ago, Ferus.3165 said:

wrong. when u do that u are just waisting your cooldowns, that is only an option if u heavily outnumber the thief.

thieves are barely visible so u cannot ever react to them or go on the offensive. The only "counter" is to play heavy sustain builds so they cannot kill you but a good thief won't die vs anybody. It's also the only class that can reliably fight 1vx fights cause you just can't hit them ever. And if they come out of stealth it's because you are already so low/blew so many cds that u cannot do anything to them anymore. this was not different before the feb2020 patch. Stealth is just giga broken in this game. especially when u combine it with the best mobility and heavy burst too.

I've killed thieves in their black powder...

[SweetPotato.7456]

11 hours ago, SweetPotato.7456 said:

really, wanna bet there are more confused emoji supporting this thread vs the one against it. 

This post alone proves I am right 3 from thief hater to 1 non hater , the other one is 10 to one lololololol 

PS: I don't play a thief, l play everything else except thief, they can come at me any time. 😆

Edited November 20, 2023 by SweetPotato.7456
Spell grammar check

[kash.9213]

Shadow Arts changes gave more flexibility if you don't want to sit in stealth all of the time. Not sure why you dropped thief after that.

Not fair to keep your super special secret build and tactics all to yourself though. 

[Zacchary.6183]

22 minutes ago, kash.9213 said:

Shadow Arts changes gave more flexibility if you don't want to sit in stealth all of the time. Not sure why you dropped thief after that.

Not fair to keep your super special secret build and tactics all to yourself though. 

He doesn't have one. He is not going to give any indication he's spent more than 50 hours on one. The whole reason why players come to the forums to complain is because they know they are incapable of playing such an "OP profession" to get their roaming jollies. And it has nothing to do with honor, but skill.