Any one else noticed the rise in lazy participation through the use of skyscale fireball?

[Sobx.1758]

No, don't make it "competitive". Anything that actively encourages this kitten is simply bad. Of course if you'll make its dps anywhere near "competitive", it will basically become a superior option, if only due to the safety of hovering over any danger (including cc) and laziness of the single key gameplay (well, ""gameplay"").

Anything boiling down to saying "buff it!" is a terrible idea. If we're talking about changing performance, make it harder to get participation by just hovering on skyscale and it's solved because leeching without rewards will lose any appeal. Not that I think it will happen, but as long as we're throwing ideas around... 🤷‍♂️

 

11 minutes ago, IndigoSundown.5419 said:

If you don't want the mount attack to be competitive, don't make a mount attack.  Why make a mount attack that's the equivalent of environmental attacks?

I'm not sure that's how it has to work. They can add that attack without intending for the players to lazily do it for the whole fight. Instead, they can make it perform for the certain tasks, to throw some easy examples: siege dmg, attacking floating turrets or just initial dmg before getting into fight. Things really can reasonably be made to specialize in some tasks, while intentionally underpeform in others.

Edited November 22, 2023 by Sobx.1758

[Killthehealersffs.8940]

1-2 years  from now , we could make that by collecting  "power orbs" in the air and landing on the grounds , shoot multiply times like the old Engi rifle .

And the hp of dragon only regenared while touching on the ground , so occassianly the boss can send some "pigeons" to east some HP.

The ground aoes mostly will dismount players

 

For some reason i want to see the Jackal collect orbs on the ground , around the boss and  some sandy  jumping puzzles will show up . That will lead up to the sky circlying  the boss , while shooting a guttling gun . Or choosing 1 of the next 3 platforms ,in your path  to either you get bonus damage at the very end of the Jackal tour , or teleported you and your Turtle (stationary) to shoot as many times as you can in 2 sec and then teleported to the next platform you have unlocked 

 

Edited November 22, 2023 by Killthehealersffs.8940

[Tiviana.2650]

Combat mounts are part of the mechanics,  because they added a new attack to combat mount system people are calling foul. No its part of the system they designed and there is nothing wrong with it,  except some notion that you have to be on the ground in a dog pile to be hitting the boss. Its just another combat attack its ridiculous to think anything else, and no it dont one shot most things. But then again we all have abilities that can one shot mobs see it everyday. The whole thing is about participation or at least thats what the topic of this thread was supposed to be about. You are participating using a combat attack, if you want to complain about how many times someone hits the boss thats different. And i seen all this before with turtle too. 

[Linken.6345]

3 hours ago, Tiviana.2650 said:

That is just griefing, before skyscale they did it with other mounts or attacks. Thats a dif issue.

Did you read my whole post? I said that in the second line.

3 hours ago, Manpag.6421 said:

It’s a tricky thing to balance, as many people predicted it would be. I love that we’re getting fun new abilities like this, but make it too strong and you’ve just made mounts meta; make it too weak, as it is now, and it encourages leeching and causes events to fail which is ruining the experience for everyone else.

Imo, the best way to fix this for both the people who want everyone to participate properly and those who are doing it because that’s the way they have fun would be to use something like the Jade Bot system to need actual investment if you want to use it in proper combat. Nerf it so it does no damage outside specific maps/events normally and doesn’t scale them up, but grant access to a buffed version that does respectable DPS — not chart-topping, but far more than leeching. And maybe apply a boon in the fireball’s AoE, because not contributing boons is another complaint people have against people using mounts in combat. Let people play how they want, but make it so that they contribute fairly.

The Jade Bot system wasn’t implemented well, and has been neglected, but the actual idea of a bunch of useful upgrades that compete with each other for slots is interesting and would apply well to mounts. A skyscale upgrade that gives you good damage potential sounds like a no-brainer, but make it compete with something that gives you an extra dodge, or increases your flight speed/range, and only people who really want to fight on their skyscale will run it because everyone else will want the extra utility.

They could easily solve this by giving the skyscale no daamage but instead buff the people you shoot at with like 10s (might or fury stack) so you get participation when they kill things.

[Derktarlms.6213]

As long as it only has 3 fireballs and the cooldown is long so they come down from the clouds zzz

[Sobx.1758]

55 minutes ago, Tiviana.2650 said:

Combat mounts are part of the mechanics,  because they added a new attack to combat mount system people are calling foul. No its part of the system they designed and there is nothing wrong with it,  except some notion that you have to be on the ground in a dog pile to be hitting the boss. Its just another combat attack its ridiculous to think anything else, and no it dont one shot most things. But then again we all have abilities that can one shot mobs see it everyday. The whole thing is about participation or at least thats what the topic of this thread was supposed to be about. You are participating using a combat attack, if you want to complain about how many times someone hits the boss thats different. And i seen all this before with turtle too. 

And at the same time you're writing that people using them to kill mobs are griefing other players. But they're not griefing, they're just using intended mechanics -a new attack to combat mount system- of the game. The question was: how can you label one as "griefing" and the other "using intended mechanic added to the game"?

Edited November 22, 2023 by Sobx.1758

[Ashen.2907]

56 minutes ago, Tiviana.2650 said:

. No its part of the system they designed and there is nothing wrong with it, 

Being part of a designed system does not exempt something from being wrong.

[Tiviana.2650]

4 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

And at the same time you're writing that people using them to kill mobs are griefing other players. But they're not griefing, they're just using intended mechanics -a new attack to combat mount system- of the game. The question was: how can you label one as "griefing" and the other "using intended mechanic added to the game"?

kitten just stop any high level can grief they grief by one shotting things in low zones they grief on bunny and raptor, maybe we should remove all abilities from the game just everyone stand around and stare the mobs to death. This thread was about the topic of participation in metas and other higher end events, low levels get griefed no matter what.I have been griefed many  times on my lowbies by high levels coming in and destroying everything before i can even get a hit in! Thats not what this topic is about, thats a whole other issue and its caused by all high level abilities and mounts not just freaking skyscale. 

[Sobx.1758]

3 minutes ago, Tiviana.2650 said:

kitten just stop any high level can grief they grief by one shotting things in low zones they grief on bunny and raptor, maybe we should remove all abilities from the game just everyone stand around and stare the mobs to death. This thread was about the topic of participation in metas and other higher end events, low levels get griefed no matter what.I have been griefed many  times on my lowbies by high levels coming in and destroying everything before i can even get a hit in! Thats not what this topic is about, thats a whole other issue and its caused by all high level abilities and mounts not just freaking skyscale. 

People participating in events killing mobs with what the devs intentionally made available to them isn't griefing the exact(!) same way you claim slowly pressing "2" key while hovering on the mount to get easy/cheap participation in the event is "intentionally made available to them by the devs". Which part of this don't you understand? If someone "killing mobs fast" is considered griefing because, well, you don't like it then so is leeching on the skyscale.

And what do you mean "just stop"? I didn't call it griefing. YOU did. Now you're writing that "maybe we should stand around and stare mobs to death" -do you not understand that hovering on the skyscale and pressing 2 is much, much closer to doing exactly that? That's more-or-less the point of this thread.

Edited November 22, 2023 by Sobx.1758

[Tiviana.2650]

5 minutes ago, Ashen.2907 said:

Being part of a designed system does not exempt something from being wrong.

How is it wrong its doing what its supposed to ...its designed to be part of the mount combat system its designed to shoot fireballs. It dont one shot any mobs in 80 zones it barely one shots lower levels. If they intend to remove combat abilities from skyscale then they best remove them from all other mounts, it can be boring point a to point b mounts like wow. This game has a mount combat system, just because this is a new attack people loose their minds over something that isnt even op! Go ahead take it out see the backlash anet, bet you better not be hypocrites , best to remove all mount abilities.  

[Peregrine Falcon.5496]

Do people spamming Skyscale #2 really do less damage than the rest of the people in the zerg who are mostly drinking Dr. Pepper while watching their character cycle through their #1 autoattack?

[Sobx.1758]

9 minutes ago, Tiviana.2650 said:

You are notorious for just wanting to cherry pick and argue on the forums..good day. 

Commenting on EXACTLY what you said isn't cherry picking -even moreso when it's literally just asking how you went from saying "a" to saying "b". You're describing the two acts using the same mechanic as "normal and intended" and then as "griefing". Based on what exactly? Judging from the avoidance of the response, it's not based on much.

 

8 minutes ago, Peregrine Falcon.5496 said:

Do people spamming Skyscale #2 really do less damage than the rest of the people in the zerg who are mostly drinking Dr. Pepper while watching their character cycle through their #1 autoattack?

Yes, a good build will deal more with autoattacks. Do you base your assesment of "what those skyscale people do normally" on anything? Doubtful, so looks like a bad strawman. It's nothing more than saying "surely some player in the game exist that does less soooo it's ok to leech on a skyscale dealing barely any damage for participation".

Edited November 22, 2023 by Sobx.1758

[Ashen.2907]

2 minutes ago, Tiviana.2650 said:

How is it wrong its doing what its supposed to ...its designed to be part of the mount combat system its designed to shoot fireballs. It dont one shot any mobs in 80 zones it barely one shots lower levels. If they intend to remove combat abilities from skyscale then they best remove them from all other mounts, it can be boring point a to point b mounts like wow. This game has a mount combat system, just because this is a new attack people loose their minds over something that isnt even op! Go ahead take it out see the backlash anet, bet you better not be hypocrites , best to remove all mount abilities.  

In general, being intended or intentionally designed does not prevent something from being wrong. Think about the world around you, history, and consider that many of the worst things happening, or to have happened, did so because someone intended them or designed a system to create them.

 

I am not even arguing that this particular thing is wrong, merely pointing out that just being intended or designed does not meqn something is not wrong.

[Ashen.2907]

7 minutes ago, Peregrine Falcon.5496 said:

Do people spamming Skyscale #2 really do less damage than the rest of the people in the zerg who are mostly drinking Dr. Pepper while watching their character cycle through their #1 autoattack?

Diet Dr Pepper....and I suppose it depends on the build. My main hits 10-12k with his autoattack.

[Peregrine Falcon.5496]

7 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Do you base your assesment of "what those skyscale people do normally" on anything? Doubtful, so looks like a bad strawman. It's nothing more than saying "surely some player in the game exist that does less soooo it's ok to leech on a skyscale dealing barely any damage for participation".

It wasn't a strawman, it was a question, and one intended to be only half serious. And I base my assessment on what I see when I'm in a group of players fighting world bosses, which happens almost every day. From my perspective it appears that most of them are just allowing their character to auto attack.

The fact is that the developers added the Skyscale fireball to the game, and they set it up to allow players to get credit for killing the boss when it dies. Attempting to frame the situation (and I'm not saying that you did this Sobx, just people in this thread in general) as if this is somehow morally wrong, or an exploit, or that the player is a bad person simply because you don't like that they're getting credit from atop a Skyscale while you're on the ground, is just laughable.

The developers specifically set the game up so that it works this way so, until they say otherwise, this is the way the developers intend us to play the game. And whether you like it or not just doesn't matter.

[Manpag.6421]

I think the main issue with Fireball is that it takes no skill to use, and the damage it does is reflective of that. I’m all for mounts in combat, as long as they make mount combat abilities complex enough that they have the potential to do competitive damage, but with a very high skill floor to do so.

The turtle is a good example of the difference between passive and active mount combat, because the entire mount is combat-focused rather than just one skill. The least effective way to use it in a fight is to stand in place ~600 units away from the enemy, with the passenger seat closed, and use Slam every 4 seconds once the animation finishes until you get dismounted.

The most effective thing you can do is to stand on the enemy, leave the seat open, use the jets as often as possible to dodge attacks and maintain burning on them, direct your slams towards any additional mobs that spawn within range (focusing on clusters to generate more ammo, while leaving the seat open), move to avoid ground AoEs, time slams for defiance bar phases where possible, move enough to cancel the Slam animation after every use, use Bond of Vigor to rapidly generate ammo if someone’s gunning (saving it for when the defiance bar is vulnerable where applicable), be ready to rapidly react and reposition if a passenger randomly uses Overdrive, and engage with any mechanics e.g. getting into safe circles for insta-kill attacks without overshooting, or standing in the right area for the phase-shifting bosses.

Both the first and second examples are seen as not participating/griefing/leeching, even though there’s a world of difference in the level of involvement. The latter will do a lot more damage, but not as much as some fights need. I love doing events on turtle because it is so much more than pressing 1, but the numbers you put out don’t reflect the effort you put in. To bring it back to skyscale, even just scaling with distance would be a start. Fireballs in the boss’s face? Big damage, but you only have 6–9k health. Hitting it from ~4K units away, well outside the radius of its attacks? No damage. And/or make fireball do substantially more damage while grounded, so you’re forced into a more vulnerable position if you want to deal damage.

[TheNecrosanct.4028]

47 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

And at the same time you're writing that people using them to kill mobs are griefing other players. But they're not griefing, they're just using intended mechanics -a new attack to combat mount system- of the game. The question was: how can you label one as "griefing" and the other "using intended mechanic added to the game"?

Context and intent. That's how.

[Sobx.1758]

35 minutes ago, Peregrine Falcon.5496 said:

It wasn't a strawman, it was a question, and one intended to be only half serious.

Your wording there did make it pretty clear that it was intended as a rhetorical question suggesting skyscale does more.

35 minutes ago, Peregrine Falcon.5496 said:

And I base my assessment on what I see when I'm in a group of players fighting world bosses, which happens almost every day. From my perspective it appears that most of them are just allowing their character to auto attack.

Those, well, bad players usually aren't bad because they're trying to game the system. People leeching on skyscale and people you're bringing up probably aren't the same ones. (and as already mentioned, good build will do more even with autoattacks)

35 minutes ago, Peregrine Falcon.5496 said:

and they set it up to allow players to get credit for killing the boss when it dies.

So if I pinpoint the exact damage number to get the loot from the boss, deal that exact damage (which wouldn't take much because it's rather low) and then just afk nearby, scaling up the event while rather clearly not participating in it... it means that's what the devs intended "because it's possible"? I don't think that's true at all.

35 minutes ago, Peregrine Falcon.5496 said:

Attempting to frame the situation (and I'm not saying that you did this Sobx, just people in this thread in general) as if this is somehow morally wrong, or an exploit, or that the player is a bad person simply because you don't like that they're getting credit from atop a Skyscale while you're on the ground, is just laughable.

Sure -and that's the point I made to triviana here:

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/topic/140379-any-one-else-noticed-the-rise-in-lazy-participation-through-the-use-of-skyscale-fireball/page/2/#comment-2032664

While asking how he goes back and forth what he considers as "intended" or "griefing" when he's talking about using the exact same mechanic implemented into the game by exact same devs, but somehow I didn't get the answer.

35 minutes ago, Peregrine Falcon.5496 said:

The developers specifically set the game up so that it works this way so, until they say otherwise, this is the way the developers intend us to play the game. And whether you like it or not just doesn't matter.

So, again, do you actually think the devs set the participation requirements the way they did so people can "pew" the boss 5 times and then go afk to wait for the loot? Oooor maybe they did set it so people not dealing as much dmg, but still actively play the game have a chance at getting the loot, but because of that having  byproduct of the events/loot being easly leechable?

What I find laughable is the idea that something must be "intended" (or being set as a goal by devs) just because "it's possible".

Edited November 22, 2023 by Sobx.1758

[Sobx.1758]

7 minutes ago, TheNecrosanct.4028 said:

Context and intent. That's how.

This looks way too vague to me. Please elaborate.

If you're trying to suggest that any player killing mobs in lower level zones -when there's a lvl scaling system in place- is somehow doing it "to grief" instead of doing it "to play the game and complete the events/zones" then that's a huge reach that's most probably completely false most of the time.

Edited November 22, 2023 by Sobx.1758

[Neferpitouh.4356]

I mean, there are tons of other ways to reap rewards while doing absolute minimum. It is not about skyscale's fireball. It is a fun addition to the game.

Openworld metas all are easy enough that you won't fail even with some people doing bare minimum. I suggest you to work with what you have instead of trying to control the whole map instance. It will never work and only ruin your fun.

[Teknomancer.4895]

1 hour ago, Tiviana.2650 said:

maybe we should remove all abilities from the game just everyone stand around and stare the mobs to death

Ravenous Gaze was always one of my favorite skills. 😆

[Epsilon Indi.2031]

12 hours ago, kharmin.7683 said:

Sadly, it's not only newbie rangers 🙄

I can dream. 😭

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

Has anyone done a DPS test on the golems with the skyscale?  Does it even work there?  Would be interesting to know the DPS, both boonless and full boons.  

[MercurialKuroSludge.8974]

If we want to "ban" people for misusing Skyscale Fireball, then we wud have to ban all the players downing repeatedly when being told 10 million times alrdy what to do, like the Boop in Dragon's Stand "LEFT IS BOOP, RUN OFF PLATFORM" and over 75% of the players just die right there, with over 1/5 of them refusing to WP and instead whine for rez from full dead.
In easily preventable circumstances like these, the 20 survivors like myself, along with the Skyscale douches, do more damage and contribute more than the peeps that perma die, and the only ppl these peeps beat out on dmg are the truly evil bastards who do the boss till 60-70% HP then straight up afk where the Chest wud spawn.

As for ppl accusing Convergence afk-ing...I can see that being the case, but I can also see that there's an annoying Kryptis Turret Kill achieve, and at some point in the future I can see myself specifically running turrrets and minimally everything else, because the achieve is just so out of the way, since u can justify killing Siege Engines, and camping mid for Spite mobs actually helps keep Zojja alive, but the turrets do almost nothing and normally we don't even touch them.

The best fix for the Skyscale abuse is to simply increase the CD for each charge of the fireball, and scale down the only meta that ACTUALLY needs it, which is the Amnytas tentacles u cant hit normally.

[Smurfiness.3714]

I do like pew pew the boss on my fireballing skyscale. It's fun. Try it.

Edited November 23, 2023 by Smurfiness.3714