They are selling hero points in the gem store now

[Roads.5130]

On 12/1/2023 at 6:44 AM, kharmin.7683 said:

So, how do you "win" GW2?

I don't know, I am not the one complaining about hero points on the store being P2W.

 

On 12/1/2023 at 6:44 AM, kharmin.7683 said:

This game is not P2W.  Everyone has equal access to all equipment.  It's not like swiping your card grants you items that are exclusive and above the ones that can be obtained in the game.

This is factually incorrect, there is absolutely no way I can use dual swords on my Guardian if I don't pay real money for EoD, there is no way I can play a Mirage with their godlike PvE dodges if I don't pay for PoF. Free to play players do not have equal access to all equipment, they do not have access to all the runes, etc.

 

On 12/1/2023 at 6:44 AM, kharmin.7683 said:

Power creep is also not P2W for the same reason.  Everyone has equal access to it.

Are you trolling? Free to play players do not have access to the specializations of each expansion.

 

On 12/1/2023 at 6:44 AM, kharmin.7683 said:

Mounts are not P2W.  Everyone, again, has equal access to them.

Oh yeah? When was the last time you saw a free to play player on a roller beetle?

Please if you are confused about what pay to win means, use a confused emoji on this reply so we have a metric of how many of you don't understand what we are talking about.

Edited December 2, 2023 by Roads.5130

[IAmNotMatthew.1058]

12 minutes ago, Roads.5130 said:

I don't know, I am not the one complaining about hero points on the store being P2W.

 

This is factually incorrect, there is absolutely no way I can use dual swords on my Guardian if I don't pay real money for EoD, there is no way I can play a Mirage with their godlike PvE dodges if I don't pay for PoF. Free to play players do not have equal access to all equipment, they do not have access to all the runes, etc.

 

Are you trolling? Free to play players do not have access to the specializations of each expansion.

 

Oh yeah? When was the last time you saw a free to play player on a roller beetle?

From "Buying HPs is pay to win" to "The whole game is pay to win" in 3 days.

[Darklord Roy.2514]

On 11/30/2023 at 10:56 AM, Splat.7981 said:

Good for her.

But now a new player instead of exploring the world of Tyria can just buy the hero points at the store right? They don't need to complete challenges in order to obtain hero points.

Three things.

1). The gem store item only unlocks *expansion* hero points. You have to own an expansion to be able to get hero points from it. If you're a new player who has yet to purchase any expansion, you cannot use the item for anything.

2). Myself and others have already mentioned this multiple times on this thread, but there has already been a way in the game for you to completely skip every expansion hero challenge for *years* now. Proofs of heroics in WvW can be spent to do this, 10 proofs for 10 hero points. A single skirmish chest, which drop like candy, contain 6 proofs each. I'm a casual WvW player and I can unlock elite specs in no time at all without spending a single dime.

3). They don't work for core Tyria hero points. Still gotta manually do every single one of those for map completion, which is infinitely more annoying than doing any expansion HP.

[Darklord Roy.2514]

20 hours ago, Roads.5130 said:

This is factually incorrect, there is absolutely no way I can use dual swords on my Guardian if I don't pay real money for EoD, there is no way I can play a Mirage with their godlike PvE dodges if I don't pay for PoF. Free to play players do not have equal access to all equipment, they do not have access to all the runes, etc.

Not sure we can really consider buying expansions to use the features of said expansions as "P2W." If that's the criteria we're going with then every online game that has ever launched an expansion is P2W simply by nature, which dodges the concept of what that term actually means. I'm hard pressed to think of a single MMO that is legitimately entirely F2P, where spending money doesn't give you *any* gameplay benefit over a free player. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think a game like that really exists.

That being said, defining P2W in a game with (almost) entirely horizontal progression at endgame is kinda tricky. Many would claim that buying a level 80 boost is P2W, while I would argue that GW2 only really actually starts at level 80. Everything from level 1 - 80 is pretty much just a preamble for when the game really opens at max level, where gear and builds actually matter. None of that really matters much at all in core Tyria content.

P2W in this game would need to involve some sort of vertical progression. Like if they decided to make a type of gear that was exclusive to the gem store and stronger than ascended/legendary quality. But not even NC Soft is dumb enough to do that.

Edited December 2, 2023 by Darklord Roy.2514

[Vayne.8563]

On 11/29/2023 at 5:21 AM, Wing.5819 said:

I know how to feel about it....

I'll be quitting if that isn't promptly removed.

I will absolutely not play any Pay to Win game. I don't give a kitten that I have 10+ years in this game. 

Another fine person that doesn't know what pay to win it. A hero point run to unlock an elite spec takes a couple of hours and people who play WvW can buy it without ever looking at the hero point.  People can already by level 80 boosts and waypoint unlocks, how is this pay to win? lol

[Rezzet.3614]

sweet do Vistas and POI next 

[Jedrik.3109]

This "community" lol

[Ashen.2907]

1 hour ago, IAmNotMatthew.1058 said:

From "Buying HPs is pay to win" to "The whole game is pay to win" in 3 days.

Indeed.

Seriously, by the standards some people are using all buy to play games are P2W because someone who doesnt own a game cannot win against someone who does.

[Vayne.8563]

5 hours ago, Ashen.2907 said:

Indeed.

Seriously, by the standards some people are using all buy to play games are P2W because someone who doesnt own a game cannot win against someone who does.

The same applies to subscription games. You have to keep paying to play and you can't win if you're not playing. I'm not saying this is the definition, I'm just saying th eway people are throwing around random definitions of pay to in in this thread, it might as well be.

[Roads.5130]

6 hours ago, Darklord Roy.2514 said:

Not sure we can really consider buying expansions to use the features of said expansions as "P2W." If that's the criteria we're going with then every online game that has ever launched an expansion is P2W simply by nature, which dodges the concept of what that term actually means. I'm hard pressed to think of a single game that is legitimately entirely F2P, where spending money doesn't give you *any* gameplay benefit over a free player. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think a game like that really exists.

That being said, defining P2W in a game with (almost) entirely horizontal progression at endgame is kinda tricky. Many would claim that buying a level 80 boost is P2W, while I would argue that GW2 only really actually starts at level 80. Everything from level 1 - 80 is pretty much just a preamble for when the game really opens at max level, where gear and builds actually matter. None of that really matters much at all in core Tyria content.

P2W in this game would need to involve some sort of vertical progression. Like if they decided to make a type of gear that was exclusive to the gem store and stronger than ascended/legendary quality. But not even NC Soft is dumb enough to do that.

I understand, my whole reply thread started by replying to the person who claimed they would leave the game if this new HP for cash feature was not promptly removed, following his reasoning I replied that the game has been pay to win for a while now, I was trying to imply that the should have quit the game a while ago.

I don't even know what would winning in GW2 imply, but if we are considering giving easy access to HPs as a P2W feature then every other actual advantage that comes from spending real money should also be noted (like the possibility of obtaining every single legendary weapon on day 1 by simply swiping a card), or how people who spent money buying multiple accounts were able to reap the benefits of multiple daily logins (accruing an immense wealth because of it).

Now, onto my actual opinion regarding this topic: I do believe GW2 is a game that greatly benefits players who spend money on it, the fact that the amount of ingame gold is only limited by how much one is willing to swipe is a clear telltale to me, but im ok with that fact because for one I do not play GW2 to win anything, this is not really a competitive game to me, but even if I really try to care about other people "winning" in this game through paying money, I believe it is fair that the people who support the developers the most have that kind of advantage.

[Batalix.2873]

I think this is the natural progression of an game that really only starts at 80, offers more interest to players to swap between different especs/builds more than it does the leveling process, and exists in an era where people increasingly do not want to waste hours to "get to the good parts" of a game.

It's still an ugly premise, but I also would admit that needing to invest time just to try out different builds is a slog for me, and likely many other people.

[Morvran.8265]

It's really sad how many people are defending terrible business practices that are harmful to the game and the community.

This is why we can't have nice things and the game will continue to decline. Because you put up with everything and attack those who have standards. Community shrinks, new content slowly disappears, but at least the whales can tell each other how great everything is once the sane people have quit.

[Ashantara.8731]

11 hours ago, Roads.5130 said:

This is factually incorrect, there is absolutely no way I can use dual swords on my Guardian if I don't pay real money for EoD

So paying for actual content in an MMO is now considered "pay 2 win"??? 🤣

You can still win against any enemy without using dual swords.

36 minutes ago, Morvran.8265 said:

It's really sad how many people are defending terrible business practices that are harmful to the game and the community.

I agree that "pay 2 progress faster" is not particularly healthy for the life of the game. It makes me feel like GW2 is nearing its end and ANet is trying to squeeze as much money out of new players as possible for its remaining lifetime. That leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

Edited December 2, 2023 by Ashantara.8731

[Huldrelokk.6598]

On 12/1/2023 at 7:32 AM, Danikat.8537 said:

 the hero point unlock is part of the "unstoppable consequences" not the start of something

Agree 100%, accepting things just feed them with power to give us more and more, when they started and everyone said "its ok, is just [...]" the acceptance has been started

[Axelteas.7192]

13 hours ago, Darklord Roy.2514 said:

Not sure we can really consider buying expansions to use the features of said expansions as "P2W." If that's the criteria we're going with then every online game that has ever launched an expansion is P2W simply by nature, which dodges the concept of what that term actually means. I'm hard pressed to think of a single game that is legitimately entirely F2P, where spending money doesn't give you *any* gameplay benefit over a free player. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think a game like that really exists.

That being said, defining P2W in a game with (almost) entirely horizontal progression at endgame is kinda tricky. Many would claim that buying a level 80 boost is P2W, while I would argue that GW2 only really actually starts at level 80. Everything from level 1 - 80 is pretty much just a preamble for when the game really opens at max level, where gear and builds actually matter. None of that really matters much at all in core Tyria content.

P2W in this game would need to involve some sort of vertical progression. Like if they decided to make a type of gear that was exclusive to the gem store and stronger than ascended/legendary quality. But not even NC Soft is dumb enough to do that.

Expansions wouldnt be pay2win if the anet balance team did a decent job. But all they do is boost the latest especs and let the core specs rot in hell.

Enter metabattle and tell me which core class is recommended in raids or fractals... none.

Try to enter in a competitive Raid party with a core ele for example and you're kicked.

Free2play users are outlawed individuals taht nobody want in their team, just because are underperforming. 

[Swoo.5079]

Who the hell is this for?

I'm ok if all Anet tosses in the gemstone is this useless crap noone really wants or needs?

If this is what Anet comes when they are pressured from above to monetize the game, I applaud the cojones that whoever comes with crap like this or the weekly black lion drop has 

The only downside of this item is the potential new player trap.

The only players that might be willing to pay for this are veterans on alt accounts wanting to start WvW with a strong toon. PvP players don't need this. PvE players don't need this.

[Swoo.5079]

9 minutes ago, Axelteas.7192 said:

Expansions wouldnt be pay2win if the anet balance team did a decent job. But all they do is boost the latest especs and let the core specs rot in hell.

Enter metabattle and tell me which core class is recommended in raids or fractals... none.

Try to enter in a competitive Raid party with a core ele for example and you're kicked.

Free2play users are outlawed individuals taht nobody want in their team, just because are underperforming. 

Can you even do raids as f2p player? And if you are raiding before getting an elite spec, maybe you shouldn't be raiding yet.

[kharmin.7683]

14 hours ago, Roads.5130 said:

I don't know, I am not the one complaining about hero points on the store being P2W.

 

This is factually incorrect, there is absolutely no way I can use dual swords on my Guardian if I don't pay real money for EoD, there is no way I can play a Mirage with their godlike PvE dodges if I don't pay for PoF. Free to play players do not have equal access to all equipment, they do not have access to all the runes, etc.

 

Are you trolling? Free to play players do not have access to the specializations of each expansion.

 

Oh yeah? When was the last time you saw a free to play player on a roller beetle?

None of that is PAY TO WIN.  It is BUY TO PLAY.   Massive difference.  And even so, again I'd have to ask how does one WIN?  How does a player, who has purchased content, beat a free account player in winning GW2?  Would they have an advantage in competitive play (PvP or WvW)?  Absolutely, but they don't win the game.

[Axelteas.7192]

21 minutes ago, Swoo.5079 said:

Can you even do raids as f2p player? And if you are raiding before getting an elite spec, maybe you shouldn't be raiding yet.

How can you get an elite specs as a free player? Do you mean do you have to pay to access raids? 

[Swoo.5079]

9 minutes ago, Axelteas.7192 said:

How can you get an elite specs as a free player? Do you mean do you have to pay to access raids? 

I mean why are you raiding, especially competively, without an elite spec?

Anet just has a very clumsy system, with 4 xpacs already + 4 living stories 

When they release a new xpac they should just have a standard version and a complete version for like $/€10 extra that unlocks all the previous content.  In a couple of year there will be 6 xpacs, with the last 3 not having elite specs  

Edited December 2, 2023 by Swoo.5079

[SpyderArachnid.5619]

36 minutes ago, Axelteas.7192 said:

How can you get an elite specs as a free player? Do you mean do you have to pay to access raids? 

You do have to pay to access raids. Raids are only accessible in HoT and PoF. If you don't have those expansions, you can't raid.

[Teknomancer.4895]

1 hour ago, Swoo.5079 said:

Who the hell is this for?

(...snip...)

The only players that might be willing to pay for this are veterans on alt accounts wanting to start WvW with a strong toon. PvP players don't need this. PvE players don't need this.

Nonsense. Obviously I don't have any insight into ANet's marketing team, but it looks to me like this is aimed squarely at returning players who now have more money than time:

Played the game, left for X period of time, RL happened, returned to game, wants to get existing toons up-to-date without it taking too much of one's now more-limited gaming time.

If this had been a thing about 6 months ago when I came back, I would have totally bought one or two espec's worth just to be viable again.

But pay to win, it is not.

[Vayne.8563]

16 hours ago, Roads.5130 said:

I don't know, I am not the one complaining about hero points on the store being P2W.

 

This is factually incorrect, there is absolutely no way I can use dual swords on my Guardian if I don't pay real money for EoD, there is no way I can play a Mirage with their godlike PvE dodges if I don't pay for PoF. Free to play players do not have equal access to all equipment, they do not have access to all the runes, etc.

 

Are you trolling? Free to play players do not have access to the specializations of each expansion.

 

Oh yeah? When was the last time you saw a free to play player on a roller beetle?

By this definition, WoW is pay to win, because expansions raise your level and make you more powerful. In games where open world PvP exists, that's the very defiinition of pay to win.

Guild Wars 2 is a buy to play game that has a free to play version. The core game is free to play. But the expansions have seperate content. Expansions never counted as pay to win, just cash shop items that made you more powerful. The fact that people want to take the term literally is the issue, not this game being P2W.

[Ashantara.8731]

1 hour ago, kharmin.7683 said:

None of that is PAY TO WIN.  It is BUY TO PLAY.   Massive difference.  And even so, again I'd have to ask how does one WIN?  How does a player, who has purchased content, beat a free account player in winning GW2?  Would they have an advantage in competitive play (PvP or WvW)?  Absolutely, but they don't win the game.

I feel like we are fighting windmills here. "Pay to win" is thoughtlessly used too easily far too often these days. Most of those who use it the wrong way don't even seem to understand its meaning.

[Wielder Of Magic.3950]

I suppose from Anet's point of view it makes sense to do this.
Feels not necessarily as P2W to me, but more like a P2S (pay to skip) if that makes sense.
You could already skip to 80 with tomes or lv 80 boosts, but then you would still had to grab 250 hero points for elite specs.
Now you can skip past earning those by paying so as a new player you can instantly not just be lv 80 but also have whatever elite spec you wish instantly unlocked. 
So I get why Anet did it.

But at the same time I am not really a fan and am afraid that, considering how the game already has issues teaching people its mechanics/how to play, this will only lead to an even bigger influx of people who have no idea about game mechanics/what they are doing, but now on fully unlocked specs. You could now get someone with a fully leveled character + elite spec who is on their first day in the game and has never seen any of his traits or skills before. This won't help in that regard.