Smokescale nerf went through, I guess

[Tanek.5983]

Can anyone explain to me why the knockdown and defiance break had to be removed from smokescake/soulbeast in PvE? What exactly was the problem?

[Mell.4873]

12 minutes ago, Tanek.5983 said:

Can anyone explain to me why the knockdown and defiance break had to be removed from smokescake/soulbeast in PvE? What exactly was the problem?

Using their logic, they must have felt like it made their upcoming pet buffs would be invalid if everyone still picked Smokescale. I guess nerfing it makes people reconsider its use.
It probably won't invalidate it in PvP.

[Tanek.5983]

19 minutes ago, Mell.4873 said:

Using their logic, they must have felt like it made their upcoming pet buffs would be invalid if everyone still picked Smokescale. I guess nerfing it makes people reconsider its use.
It probably won't invalidate it in PvP.

I guess. I only just started playing soulbeast a short time ago and the devs seem so intent on making defiance bars an important thing in PvE that it is annoying when any break ability is lost. And cripple seems to have next to zero actual use in PvE.

I hope this "pet buff" is worth it.

Edited November 28, 2023 by Tanek.5983

[Sansar.1302]

50 minutes ago, Tanek.5983 said:

I guess. I only just started playing soulbeast a short time ago and the devs seem so intent on making defiance bars an important thing in PvE that it is annoying when any break ability is lost. And cripple seems to have next to zero actual use in PvE.

I hope this "pet buff" is worth it.

it ain in wvw atleast so another neto nerf

[Gotejjeken.1267]

2 hours ago, Mell.4873 said:

Using their logic, they must have felt like it made their upcoming pet buffs would be invalid if everyone still picked Smokescale. I guess nerfing it makes people reconsider its use.
It probably won't invalidate it in PvP.

Don't see why anyone would continue using in in competitive, even if it does have the smoke field--stealth is far less important for ranger than stab now.  

If I had guesses you'll see Dog/Bird/Gazelle for Soulbeast, some random tank/CC pets for Druid (because maces, zerging build, etc.), and either random pets for Untamed or continue non-use because why would you put yourself through trying to play a competitive Untamed build in 2023?

[Arheundel.6451]

23 minutes ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

Don't see why anyone would continue using in in competitive, even if it does have the smoke field--stealth is far less important for ranger than stab now.  

If I had guesses you'll see Dog/Bird/Gazelle for Soulbeast, some random tank/CC pets for Druid (because maces, zerging build, etc.), and either random pets for Untamed or continue non-use because why would you put yourself through trying to play a competitive Untamed build in 2023?

A playstyle choice rather than obligatory and auto-loss if enemy ranger has it and you don't in most cases, based on skill level. Some people hate Untamed..some love it...it offers an essential gameplay option in wvw with lifesteal to bypass ubertanks with perma everything, during group fights...it works beautifully for solo players like me

p.s The new phoenix plays great, hits like a truck and the dash feels smooth, no delayed animations, I love dashing through enemy groups

Edited November 28, 2023 by Arheundel.6451

[Gotejjeken.1267]

1 hour ago, Arheundel.6451 said:

A playstyle choice rather than obligatory and auto-loss if enemy ranger has it and you don't in most cases, based on skill level. 

Think playstyle choice sums it up best, as for WvW roaming I personally have never met an Untamed I can't take out with Druid or Soulbeast, and Druid can also do zerging where Untamed cannot (at least not in meaningful squad-based way). 

[Oneill.5837]

At least they could left the CC, daze or stun witouh the knockdown, mostly in pve. 

[Tanek.5983]

15 hours ago, Oneill.5837 said:

At least they could left the CC, daze or stun witouh the knockdown, mostly in pve. 

This was exactly my thought. And with a daze they could leave in the defiance break.

Actually, looking at the defiance wiki page, cripple is a potential defiance break effect, too. Even less reason for it to have been removed from PvE.

Edited November 29, 2023 by Tanek.5983

[Mell.4873]

6 hours ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

Think playstyle choice sums it up best, as for WvW roaming I personally have never met an Untamed I can't take out with Druid or Soulbeast, and Druid can also do zerging where Untamed cannot (at least not in meaningful squad-based way). 

I mean most of my WvW time is spent maintaining participation. I normally just charge into Zergs and try get as many kills/tags as I can. I do this on either Untamed or Druid, I don't even a play Soulbeast in WvW anymore since it is to squishy. 

If I see someone who is geared for Roaming I have a Sword/Sword Untamed to spam kill them before they either kill me or run away. Playing my sPvP build is useless since everyone runs away if they are losing even in duels. 

[Gotejjeken.1267]

17 minutes ago, Mell.4873 said:

If I see someone who is geared for Roaming I have a Sword/Sword Untamed to spam kill them before they either kill me or run away. Playing my sPvP build is useless since everyone runs away if they are losing even in duels. 

Go in one of the southern camps and see how long you can hold it--guaranteed you will get committed 2 or 3 on 1's. 

These are winnable pretty easily on something like Druid because of the disengage through Celestial Shadow and used to be winnable on SLB through LB #3 + Smokescale (outdamage the weaker and kite the rest) but has always been very hard on Untamed unless you have a +1 helping out.  

As far as tagging, nothing Untamed offers beats Celestial Avatar for this.  Both for selfish reasons as majority of CA skills are AOE (if not all of them) and they also help support by default even if you take Eclipse for offense. 

This is what I mean by my posts above.  Yes, you can play other ways--you can sit in tower or keep in EBG and just kill passerby for perma-participation, but not the healthiest thing to base your balancing around.  

[DanAlcedo.3281]

12 hours ago, Tanek.5983 said:

Can anyone explain to me why the knockdown and defiance break had to be removed from smokescake/soulbeast in PvE? What exactly was the problem?

Do they even have the tech to have a skill do cc in one game mode and another doesn't? 

They can change numbers and switch the boons a skill between game modes but this? 

Can't think of a single example. 

[Silvoshipnos.2089]

15 hours ago, Tanek.5983 said:

Can anyone explain to me why the knockdown and defiance break had to be removed from smokescake/soulbeast in PvE? What exactly was the problem?

I believe this is because skills can't be yay different between gamemodes, I think if they removed it from PVP/WvW they had to remove it from PvE too.

I'm not entirely certain but I think that's the technical reason and the underlying reason is that one of the Devs got killed by a longbow soulbeast and they decided to nuke them from orbit, like de 70% Nerf to OWP.

[Levetty.1279]

Funny thing is that it does less damage then the smokescales auto, making it a pointless skill.

[Lazze.9870]

It was a good change guys, now we can enjoy all those buffs that most definetely weren't QoL changes that should have been implemented YEARS ago. Smokescale was clearly overpowered after being meta for 8 years.

/s

Edited November 29, 2023 by Lazze.9870

[Tanek.5983]

11 hours ago, DanAlcedo.3281 said:

Do they even have the tech to have a skill do cc in one game mode and another doesn't? 

They can change numbers and switch the boons a skill between game modes but this? 

Can't think of a single example. 

8 hours ago, Silvoshipnos.2089 said:

I believe this is because skills can't be yay different between gamemodes, I think if they removed it from PVP/WvW they had to remove it from PvE too.

I'm not entirely certain but I think that's the technical reason and the underlying reason is that one of the Devs got killed by a longbow soulbeast and they decided to nuke them from orbit, like de 70% Nerf to OWP.

Good point on whether the condition can be different between modes. Not sure. Will have to look into that.

Either way, though, cripple can still be a defiance break. Removing it seems unnecessary.

Update: just tested it and I guess they did not remove the defiance break from cripple...it just does so little over the 3 seconds that they may as well have.
I give up.

Edited November 29, 2023 by Tanek.5983

[Kinaen.6135]

Sad. I don't pvp and I don't use Kyle (weird dog thing from despicable me) for DPS. Honestly even if another pet was better I'd have still used this one.

For me, SS was the perfect blend of

- Utility in F1 - interrupt/CC/defiance break

- Defense in F2 (dodge) and F3 (which I purposely deviate from meta specs to get AoE blind & weakness from BM traits, and is my primary reason for using F3...)

But above all that was the most important part: fun. I love the feeling of landing a knockdown in general (on any profession I can get it, even), and F1 & F2 animations made it feel like the skills were actually DOING something. I can't say I even notice many (if any) gazelle/warthog/boar/bird/moa/BB skill animations other than a few particle effects.

And aesthetics from the animations themselves - I love the spinning wheel kick animation of Takedown, and turning to a cloud of smoke and hitting a mob several times is quite satisfying...

I get why all this could be OP in pvp, and the technical obstacles in drastically altering a pet on just that side of the game. But removing the knockdown in pve just because it's OP in pvp is a real bummer.

I also understand that anet wants us to use other pets. But why does it have to be about what they want? What about what we want?

I'm just really going to miss Kyle.

[Oneill.5837]

On 11/29/2023 at 9:44 PM, Kinaen.6135 said:

Sad. I don't pvp and I don't use Kyle (weird dog thing from despicable me) for DPS. Honestly even if another pet was better I'd have still used this one.

For me, SS was the perfect blend of

- Utility in F1 - interrupt/CC/defiance break

- Defense in F2 (dodge) and F3 (which I purposely deviate from meta specs to get AoE blind & weakness from BM traits, and is my primary reason for using F3...)

But above all that was the most important part: fun. I love the feeling of landing a knockdown in general (on any profession I can get it, even), and F1 & F2 animations made it feel like the skills were actually DOING something. I can't say I even notice many (if any) gazelle/warthog/boar/bird/moa/BB skill animations other than a few particle effects.

And aesthetics from the animations themselves - I love the spinning wheel kick animation of Takedown, and turning to a cloud of smoke and hitting a mob several times is quite satisfying...

I get why all this could be OP in pvp, and the technical obstacles in drastically altering a pet on just that side of the game. But removing the knockdown in pve just because it's OP in pvp is a real bummer.

I also understand that anet wants us to use other pets. But why does it have to be about what they want? What about what we want?

I'm just really going to miss Kyle.

Totally agree. The first thing of playing a profession its about having fun... should be fun, obviusly fun is different for every person but it was a useful funny combo for both pve and pvp. Now it's not, just a kitten dps skill with no further sense with not even enough DPS for being useful and not a utility skill for different situations which you need that knockdown. 

[Kinaen.6135]

On 11/30/2023 at 4:13 PM, Oneill.5837 said:

Totally agree. The first thing of playing a profession its about having fun... should be fun, obviusly fun is different for every person but it was a useful funny combo for both pve and pvp. Now it's not, just a kitten dps skill with no further sense with not even enough DPS for being useful and not a utility skill for different situations which you need that knockdown. 

I spent a while last night looking through my stable for a better pet for my power soulbeast setup, and even after neutering the Takedown skill, IMO it's still as good or better than any other pet - not just the ferocious type ones. Phoenix looks nice but I can't stand knockback. White tiger is interesting but not ferocious.

 

[Mell.4873]

Everyone is so Jaded over such a small change. I mean the Smokefield wasn't removed, this reminds me of when they increased the cooldown of Sharpening Stones by 6 seconds.

The Pet is still a valid pick for WvW roaming. I mean how often where people relying on that stun, and if it was being used from stealth you have plenty of other options. I mean just pet swap after you stealth if you want.

[Kinaen.6135]

24 minutes ago, Mell.4873 said:

Everyone is so Jaded over such a small change. I mean the Smokefield wasn't removed, this reminds me of when they increased the cooldown of Sharpening Stones by 6 seconds.

The Pet is still a valid pick for WvW roaming. I mean how often where people relying on that stun, and if it was being used from stealth you have plenty of other options. I mean just pet swap after you stealth if you want.

Not relying on it. But it was by far the most fun for me out of all my pets. Losing the defiance break sucks too. But for all the reasons I said above, this nerf took some fun out of the game for me.

[Tanek.5983]

56 minutes ago, Mell.4873 said:

Everyone is so Jaded over such a small change. I mean the Smokefield wasn't removed, this reminds me of when they increased the cooldown of Sharpening Stones by 6 seconds.

The Pet is still a valid pick for WvW roaming. I mean how often where people relying on that stun, and if it was being used from stealth you have plenty of other options. I mean just pet swap after you stealth if you want.

I don't use it in WvW and I don't PvP at all, so maybe it is still perfectly fine there.

My concern is the PvE side of things. If it had removed the knockdown and replaced with a daze or something, I could work with that. But cripple is next to useless.

[Mell.4873]

11 hours ago, Tanek.5983 said:

I don't use it in WvW and I don't PvP at all, so maybe it is still perfectly fine there.

My concern is the PvE side of things. If it had removed the knockdown and replaced with a daze or something, I could work with that. But cripple is next to useless.

That is not entirely true, cripple triggers the Predator's Onslaught trait. Before this you had to use Dogs to get enough cripple in PvE. 

[Tanek.5983]

11 hours ago, Mell.4873 said:

That is not entirely true, cripple triggers the Predator's Onslaught trait. Before this you had to use Dogs to get enough cripple in PvE. 

Aren't there plenty of other debuffs (including daze) that trigger the damage from that trait? Plus, the damage always affects "defiant" enemies. The cripple effect *itself* is what I find mostly useless. And putting it here adds nothing that another condition would not improve.

Again, I don't mind the removal of knockdown as much as I mind it being replaced by cripple rather than something more useful in PvE.

[Mell.4873]

14 minutes ago, Tanek.5983 said:

Aren't there plenty of other debuffs (including daze) that trigger the damage from that trait? Plus, the damage always affects "defiant" enemies. The cripple effect *itself* is what I find mostly useless. And putting it here adds nothing that another condition would not improve.

Again, I don't mind the removal of knockdown as much as I mind it being replaced by cripple rather than something more useful in PvE.

Yes, but stuns don't last as long and won't work on breakbar enemies most of the time. You can either Immobilize enemies or use the much easier Cripple.

Edited December 3, 2023 by Mell.4873