game direction is no fun

[Lighter.5631]

every single builds are just big aoe spam or range spam while running away, teleport spamming trying to cheese attacks in and run away

and single-target melee skills has no reward for the risks

melee skill trades and die for losing the trade don't exist

and basically, all ranked builds gameplay now are just blow all your CDs, defensives that make you invulnerable/aoe CCs/blind/stability and damage at the same time, and run away till you have all these things back up again and repeat the same thing again

consequence of mobility creep

Edited December 9, 2023 by Lighter.5631

[BobbyT.7192]

For as better or for worse, retaliation was a necessary evil to counter AoE spam, it just wasn't design well. It was pretty spammable even though only one class had any access to it. While it was not perfect counter to AoE spam, it's pretty much all we had.

Engineer flamethrower is my favorite example, it's damage was getting buffed for years but still wasn't really that popular due to how you could easily kill yourself on multiple retal targets.

You get rid of retal and FT engis start running amoc in PvP, so of course you got to nerf it. That doesn't change the fact that it's still really easy damage with little counter. (Disclaimer, it's still my favorite engi build in PvP and WvW)

Range counters comes in the form of reflect and blocks, and there is mixed opinions on those mechanics. Some would say there is too much anti range opinions, and others would say there is not enough. With each side saying their problem is the most game breaker one. Even if in an unlikely scenario, you remove all anti range options and nerf the damage accordingly, people will still complain about the damage while you are losing an interactive combat mechanic (Again, for better or for worse).

In short, a lot of problems perceived by the players IMO can't be solved with nerfing numbers alone, and IMO the combat just need to be more interactive in general. Retal doesn't have to come back it's previous form, but a real way to counter the carpet bomb approach is what this game needed since forever.

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

13 minutes ago, BobbyT.7192 said:

For as better or for worse, retaliation was a necessary evil to counter AoE spam, it just wasn't design well. It was pretty spammable even though only one class had any access to it. While it was not perfect counter to AoE spam, it's pretty much all we had.

Engineer flamethrower is my favorite example, it's damage was getting buffed for years but still wasn't really that popular due to how you could easily kill yourself on multiple retal targets.

You get rid of retal and FT engis start running amoc in PvP, so of course you got to nerf it. That doesn't change the fact that it's still really easy damage with little counter. (Disclaimer, it's still my favorite engi build in PvP and WvW)

Range counters comes in the form of reflect and blocks, and there is mixed opinions on those mechanics. Some would say there is too much anti range opinions, and others would say there is not enough. With each side saying their problem is the most game breaker one. Even if in an unlikely scenario, you remove all anti range options and nerf the damage accordingly, people will still complain about the damage while you are losing an interactive combat mechanic (Again, for better or for worse).

In short, a lot of problems perceived by the players IMO can't be solved with nerfing numbers alone, and IMO the combat just need to be more interactive in general. Retal doesn't have to come back it's previous form, but a real way to counter the carpet bomb approach is what this game needed since forever.

Frankly I'd not have a problem with retal coming back, as it would give a reason to buff boon rips/corruptions again and to actually watch what the opposing side are doing. The game used to be way more reactive than it is now, and frankly being forced to pay attention to and counter mechanics is more fun than bulldozing through with boons. 

[BobbyT.7192]

49 minutes ago, Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

Frankly I'd not have a problem with retal coming back, as it would give a reason to buff boon rips/corruptions again and to actually watch what the opposing side are doing. The game used to be way more reactive than it is now, and frankly being forced to pay attention to and counter mechanics is more fun than bulldozing through with boons. 

From what I remember, boon hate wasn't really adequate enough to properly deal with retal in a lot situations. Since one of the most played classes in PvP could easily pump more of it faster than you could rip it.  So i want to see retal come back in another form and not just as a spammable boon.

 

[ccccc.4963]

Jungle diff ggnext

[Assolador.3598]

6 hours ago, Lighter.5631 said:

every single builds are just big aoe spam or range spam while running away, teleport spamming trying to cheese attacks in and run away

and single-target melee skills has no reward for the risks

melee skill trades and die for losing the trade don't exist

and basically, all ranked builds gameplay now are just blow all your CDs, defensives that make you invulnerable/aoe CCs/blind/stability and damage at the same time, and run away till you have all these things back up again and repeat the same thing again

consequence of mobility creep

berserker condi is literally top meta rn

[Kuma.1503]

I miss oneshotting myself with Meteor Shower in big zerg fights. 

I lived for those moments. 

Well actually i died for them but you get the point. 

[The V.8759]

I've just come back after a few years. I've always been a mostly PvP player and enjoyed it vividly. Now, there may be some nostalgia to my vision, but here we go:

Damage output

There is just too much damage flying around in the game. With the tankiest amulet out there being Paladin, the game revolves around very short fights, where you either kill or be killed. Everything has to be extremely high dps to function in PvP, except for a slightly tanky elementalist and guardian due to kits. This creates a PvP environment where you aren't really able make smart decisions based on which skills your enemy is using; there are way too many skills to dodge/block etc. Thus the functional builds are A: the ones that can output insane damage in a short time, or B: The ones that have enough skills extremely defensive skills (Defy Pain etc.) that can outlast said damage output. Fights don't feel like you've been outplayed anymore.

CC

Most CC abilities don't deal a whole lot of damage anymore. Which seems like a fair trade-off. However, stability has for some classes also been extremely tight, especially with the low stability durations it has these days. This creates an environment where you're encouraged to chain CC the enemy, while the rest of the team deals damage, which in my opinion, is not engaging a gameplay. Just focus the target and hope your team stands in the end.

A nostalgic view

I'm taking triple kit engineer as an example here. We used to run it with Soldiers Amulet, which game an actual good amount of survivability. We had to react to an enemy, and pick the right kit and skill for what we needed at that point. Everything was slower. It was extremely rare to have a lot of might stacks by yourself and stacking might for your allies through purposefully blasting fire fields was actually important. But these days, it is given out like candy. Let alone that there is enough time for these kinds of actions in fights. Those small tactics have become absolete simply because everything else has become overloaded.

I wish I had a good time returning to this game, but I guess I got my hopes up. I shouldn't have thought they might have made PvP more competetive after breaking with ESL. No, it has just become an arena hack-and-slash

[Master Ketsu.4569]

The problem is caused by anets design/balance philosophy of nerfing around mechanical problems instead of actually fixing mechanical problems, which ironically results in making classes more dependent on said mechanical problems. We are reaching the end goal of this bad philosophy, which is that the game is "balanced" in that every class has something worth playing, but all the most viable builds are extremely uninteractive degenerate low skill monkey spam.

Engie is a fantastic example of this type of unskillful degeneracy. Holosmith before nade-EE monkeytrash was one of the most interactive builds with powerful damage but big tells. It was fun to fight against and fun to play as. Now what is Engie playing today? Run away with superspeed while throwing snapgroundtarget grenades behind you oook oook ah eee eee eeee

 

[Balsa.3951]

11 hours ago, BobbyT.7192 said:

For as better or for worse, retaliation was a necessary evil to counter AoE spam, it just wasn't design well. It was pretty spammable even though only one class had any access to it. While it was not perfect counter to AoE spam, it's pretty much all we had.

Engineer flamethrower is my favorite example, it's damage was getting buffed for years but still wasn't really that popular due to how you could easily kill yourself on multiple retal targets.

You get rid of retal and FT engis start running amoc in PvP, so of course you got to nerf it. That doesn't change the fact that it's still really easy damage with little counter. (Disclaimer, it's still my favorite engi build in PvP and WvW)

Range counters comes in the form of reflect and blocks, and there is mixed opinions on those mechanics. Some would say there is too much anti range opinions, and others would say there is not enough. With each side saying their problem is the most game breaker one. Even if in an unlikely scenario, you remove all anti range options and nerf the damage accordingly, people will still complain about the damage while you are losing an interactive combat mechanic (Again, for better or for worse).

In short, a lot of problems perceived by the players IMO can't be solved with nerfing numbers alone, and IMO the combat just need to be more interactive in general. Retal doesn't have to come back it's previous form, but a real way to counter the carpet bomb approach is what this game needed since forever.

maybe but retalation was also kinda unfair and im saying this as guardian main who killed pistol thief in the past just by standing still.

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

2 hours ago, Balsa.3951 said:

maybe but retalation was also kinda unfair and im saying this as guardian main who killed pistol thief in the past just by standing still.

Killing teefs by just standing still should be core feature for all classes.
Retalation could just trigger much less often for attacker but with stronger hits or something like that (once per interval per 1 target).
Game feels more like "who has more macros" than actual skill based on what happens on screen. Now you just have to watch for 431897456138761 random flashy effects that cover whole map on top of that you need to look after conditions on you that are applied out of kitten random trait proc or whatever.
Let's add then some offense while being invuln bs that you can't really do a thing against it or stealth bs that still isn't fixed/deleted since 2012.
0 skill, 0 brain, I'm a FotM main.

[BobbyT.7192]

3 hours ago, Balsa.3951 said:

maybe but retalation was also kinda unfair and im saying this as guardian main who killed pistol thief in the past just by standing still.

As I mentioned, i want to see retal as a concept come back but just not in to form is was before. Instead of a boon, make it skills that deal out damage based on damage taken or defended against. Rev GS4 as an example, more of these types of skill.

[Swagg.9236]

Why reinstate the boon which punishes people for successfully hitting a target when you could instead just... make hitting a target somewhat more interactive and involved than "slap tab; headbang onto keyboard" or "hold W; headbang onto keyboard"?

[Balsa.3951]

5 hours ago, BobbyT.7192 said:

As I mentioned, i want to see retal as a concept come back but just not in to form is was before. Instead of a boon, make it skills that deal out damage based on damage taken or defended against. Rev GS4 as an example, more of these types of skill.

warrior spellbreaker has that.

it would be like a parry or a conter 

[Flowki.7194]

On 12/9/2023 at 4:50 PM, Lighter.5631 said:

every single builds are just big aoe spam or range spam while running away, teleport spamming trying to cheese attacks in and run away

and single-target melee skills has no reward for the risks

melee skill trades and die for losing the trade don't exist

and basically, all ranked builds gameplay now are just blow all your CDs, defensives that make you invulnerable/aoe CCs/blind/stability and damage at the same time, and run away till you have all these things back up again and repeat the same thing again

consequence of mobility creep

This is exactly why I was arguing that nerfing cata and tempest out of meta would be a bad thing. Look what took its place, specs with a far lower skill bar and ability to spew out dmg while immune. How can you force mistakes from a spec that face rolls 5 buttons for 30k dps while immune?..

Edited December 10, 2023 by Flowki.7194

[ccccc.4963]

13 hours ago, Master Ketsu.4569 said:

Run away with superspeed while throwing snapgroundtarget grenades behind you oook oook ah eee eee eeee

70yr old men complaining about prefiring its a protractor meta study up flunkie

[Swagg.9236]

1 hour ago, ccccc.4963 said:

70yr old men complaining about prefiring its a protractor meta study up flunkie

Super easy to lead a target in a game where your AoEs are 5x the size of a target, have short (or no) cooldowns (in the case of the autoattack), movement speed outside of teleports is atrociously slow, and players often have to sit on objectives that are equal to your AoE spam and maybe only twice the size of your AoEs in the best scenarios (only exception:  Foefire mid).

There is also no leading involved when you get to walk up to a target with blocks and throw nades at your own feet lol

[ccccc.4963]

1 hour ago, Swagg.9236 said:

Super easy to lead a target

That's not a target that's another human being choosing to run it down mid (not my issue)

[Swagg.9236]

3 minutes ago, ccccc.4963 said:

That's not a target that's another human being choosing to run it down mid (not my issue)

Does it have to be anyone's issue when any class you play in GW2 lets you walk to whatever target you want and press whichever buttons you want for a fixed number of seconds?  Makes everything pretty easy.  Only real variable at that point is AoE size and spammability lol.  Thankfully, engineer has two classes that do the exact same thing, so you can just pick between them both depending on patch note drops.

[ccccc.4963]

Just now, Swagg.9236 said:

Does it have to be anyone's issue when any class you play in GW2 lets you walk to whatever target you want and press whichever buttons you want for a fixed number of seconds?  Makes everything pretty easy.  Only real variable at that point is AoE size and spammability lol.  Thankfully, engineer has two classes that do the exact same thing, so you can just pick between them both depending on patch note drops.

Its not my fault you're choosing to not play the game 

[Khalisto.5780]

not far from now the only ppl playing in NA will be team usa, cuz you know, god forbid plebs getting god of arena and gizmos

[ccccc.4963]

16 hours ago, Khalisto.5780 said:

cuz you know, god forbid plebs getting god of arena and gizmos

Lmao

[lotus.5672]

On 12/11/2023 at 1:34 AM, Khalisto.5780 said:

not far from now the only ppl playing in NA will be team usa, cuz you know, god forbid plebs getting god of arena and gizmos

I mean, rodrigo and his duo did get r1 and 2 not long ago, but players like them get banned really quick, I wonder why...

[Khalisto.5780]

36 minutes ago, lotus.5672 said:

I mean, rodrigo and his duo did get r1 and 2 not long ago, but players like them get banned really quick, I wonder why...

I dont believe they've done anything different from any othet r1 since i started playing in 2018. Duo q, q dodge, alt acc grief and maybe multibox "wintrade".

They got banned?

[Burnfall.9573]

On 12/10/2023 at 5:12 AM, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

Killing teefs by just standing still should be core feature for all classes.
Retalation could just trigger much less often for attacker but with stronger hits or something like that (once per interval per 1 target).
Game feels more like "who has more macros" than actual skill based on what happens on screen. Now you just have to watch for 431897456138761 random flashy effects that cover whole map on top of that you need to look after conditions on you that are applied out of kitten random trait proc or whatever.
Let's add then some offense while being invuln bs that you can't really do a thing against it or stealth bs that still isn't fixed/deleted since 2012.
0 skill, 0 brain, I'm a FotM main.

 

Good news is that, 2024 upcoming MMO'S couldn't look better without Guild Wars 2 Toxic Stealth Mechanic and without having a "Rogue" Profession Design to be excused from Exploits, Hacks and Cheating. Great news is, Guild Wars 2 will continue to be avoided at all costs by Competitive Players and The Compettiive Gaming Industry who strive for Fair Counterplay Compettition for the player experience. Even better; more options and more reasons for us to finally leave this 11 years+ Nightmare behind us.

no more of this

Y A Y!!!!! 

🤩🤩 🥳🥳

Edited December 12, 2023 by Burnfall.9573