What if I told you there is an actual "I Win" combo in this game that makes it pointless for the target to have a keyboard? 🧪🐤💀

[Twilight Tempest.7584]

✔️ Something, something, meme-build 

 ✔️ Something, something, day 1 elixir skill

✔️ Something, something, who plays core engi?

 ✔️ Something, something, just dodge

 ✔️ Something, something, glass build problems

✔️ Something, something, nerf teef

--

Now that that's out of the way...

I present to you the ultimate combo-wombo "I-win" button guaranteed not only to knock your opponent off their feet, but to literally give them an out-of-body experience as their keyboard dematerializes from beneath their fingers!

I present to you...

Toss Elixir X*

Still deleting even the cele-ist of opponents, without any ability to resist, like it's 2012!

*When used in combination with hard-CC.  Slotted separately.  Blindsiding engaged opponents and use of macros recommended for up to 99.99999% efficacy.  Please use responsibly.  These claims have not been evaluated by the ArenaNet Ministry of Balance and Fair Play.

 👉 In all seriousness, why is this a thing? 👈

Let's be real:

1. Realistically, Magnet is going to hit 99% of the time when used on an engaged/distracted opponent from out of view.  It's a 1,200-range, un-blockable pull.  One would almost have to try for it not to land.
2. Once Magnet hits, the target has literally a fraction of a second to react with a stun-break before getting Moa'd.  In the first case in the video, that window was a fleeting 0.5 seconds, determined by counting frames.  Anyone who thinks their reaction time would have been adequate when factoring in latency, render lag, and sheer surprise factor is deluding themselves.
3. Once Moa'd, the target's fate is sealed.  There is literally no button they can press for the duration of the Moa.  Their keyboard might as well be disconnected, and the player should feel free to get up and take a stretch.  Any build unable to tank the incoming burst is immediately downed.  Game over.

I can't think of any other "1-shot" combo that totally deprives the target use of their input device other than perhaps the Mesmer equivalent.  It's an unhealthy interaction between hard-CC + Moa resulting in degenerate gameplay.  Either skill alone is fine, but in combination, it's oppressive.

My suggestion would be that Moa skills remove any CC effect when landing.  A Moa'd player can be subsequently CC'd, but not initially have their skill bar replaced with bird skills AND have those bird skills locked out.  That's simply too much.

Edited January 1 by Twilight Tempest.7584
Added "Let's be real" discussion below the video and a little more to the "ad" above it. 🙂 | 1/1/24: Updated title.

[Dawdler.8521]

When an engineer can trigger a thief so hard they need a thread, they’ve won the game.

[urd.8306]

I enjoy what I'm seeing.

[XenesisII.1540]

Moa needs to exist because of all the bunker builds now. Or the annoying build that goes into stealth 90% of combat. 🤷‍♂️

Half the time players can get away with the dash on moa, or survive because of bunker friends.

My only question is why mesmer moa takes 1/2s longer to cast, and has a 30s longer cooldown.

☕

Edited December 10, 2023 by XenesisII.1540

[Chaos God.1639]

i sometimes see players dodge my magnetic pulls, so I think they can see the spell effect, like I can, and then dodge it. so it's possible to break this combo

[Kirevey.5079]

Dodge the pull.

[Twilight Tempest.7584]

7 hours ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

When an engineer can trigger a thief so hard they need a thread, they’ve won the game.

What if the victim had been on any of their other mains? Still nothing they could do, but less victim shaming one imagines.

4 hours ago, XenesisII.1540 said:

Half the time players can get away with the dash on moa, or survive because of bunker friends.

If your moa success rate is 50%, you’re doing far better than yours truly. That’s typically what happens—they dash out of range. That’s fine. Moa should not be an “I win” button. But combined with CC, it basically is.

4 hours ago, XenesisII.1540 said:

My only question is why mesmer moa takes 1/2s longer to cast, and has a 30s longer cooldown.

☕

Indeed.

3 hours ago, Chaos God.1639 said:

i sometimes see players dodge my magnetic pulls, so I think they can see the spell effect, like I can, and then dodge it. so it's possible to break this combo

1 hour ago, Kirevey.5079 said:

Dodge the pull.

Ah yes, the pull that requires eyes on the back of one’s head to see.  What if it comes from stealth as well?

—

There’s neither issue with the pull nor moa individually.

 But it should never be possible to totally and completely deprive people the use of their skill bar for any length of time.

Stunning while also locking out stunbreaks should not be possible.

 

[Kirevey.5079]

4 minutes ago, Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

Ah yes, the pull that requires eyes on the back of one’s head to see.  What if it comes from stealth as well?

Leaving aside the stealth pulls (those are bad luck for anybody), both pulls from the video show that you completely lack awareness.

While killing the rams on an SMC that is open, is fully expected that enemies could show up, so, why are you not paying attention to that. Some camera management and watching for people coming could have shown you that the engi was coming and be ready for that. 

Second clip you tunnel vision the vindi, again, on an open area where enemies can just show up and get pulled. Again, if you had seen it coming, maybe you would be ready.

Moa is an annoying skill, but god forbid people using a dodge for such a telegraphed combo.

[Dawdler.8521]

9 minutes ago, Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

What if the victim had been on any of their other mains?

"Their main"? Oh I thought it was you being subjected to this horrible abuse. 

I hope you're not going to tell us you dont die that easily to engies regardless of moa or not or something like that.

[SweetPotato.7456]

That must be a thief playing the engineer, no way can be that sneaky.

[Twilight Tempest.7584]

3 minutes ago, Kirevey.5079 said:

Leaving aside the stealth pulls (those are bad luck for anybody), both pulls from the video show that you completely lack awareness.

While killing the rams on an SMC that is open, is fully expected that enemies could show up, so, why are you not paying attention to that. Some camera management and watching for people coming could have shown you that the engi was coming and be ready for that. 

Second clip you tunnel vision the vindi, again, on an open area where enemies can just show up and get pulled. Again, if you had seen it coming, maybe you would be ready.

Moa is an annoying skill, but god forbid people using a dodge for such a telegraphed combo.

Didn't want to bore viewers with minutes of dodge-spamming Death's Judgment on rams while regularly 360-ing the camera angle.  Suffice it to say the pull happened moments after the view shifted away from that side.  Considering there was an enemy blob inside the lord room, and not one enemy had come from the side of the courtyard until the moment shown, the inner-SMC view was probably just as important to focus as the outer-view, if not more so.  In fact, seconds after the stomp, the enemy zerg (the third team) poured out of that gate and may have rolled over the engi.

In both scenarios shown, and in WvW in general, it is not unusual to get CC'd.  It's not even unusual to get CC'd from off-screen.  It's not even unusual to be deleted in the blink of an eye by meme-combos if not built and reacted to properly.  These are to be expected.

What is not expected is the equivalent of opponents reaching through cyberspace and disconnecting one's keyboard for a few seconds.   What's the point of slotting stunbreaks and honing quick stunbreak+evade reflexes if all of that is taken off the table by an absurd interplay of two skills?

Even if the pull comes from right in front of one, and one misses it, sure, awareness can be blamed, knowledge of tells, etc.  But I still think that stunning + locking out stunbreaks should not exist.  To borrow a familiar forum refrain, that truly is "toxic design."

[Twilight Tempest.7584]

22 minutes ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

"Their main"? Oh I thought it was you being subjected to this horrible abuse. 

😅😢

22 minutes ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

I hope you're not going to tell us you dont die that easily to engies regardless of moa or not or something like that.

Never!

Now teefs on the other hand... I eat them for breakfast, lunch, and dinner!

[Remus Darkblight.1673]

19 hours ago, XenesisII.1540 said:

Moa needs to exist because of all the bunker builds now. Or the annoying build that goes into stealth 90% of combat. 🤷‍♂️

Half the time players can get away with the dash on moa, or survive because of bunker friends.

My only question is why mesmer moa takes 1/2s longer to cast, and has a 30s longer cooldown.

☕

Signet of Humility Moa lasts 6 seconds at 1,200 range.

Toss Elixir X Moa only lasts 3 seconds (3.5s traited) at 900 range and is also a projectile. But does affect 3 targets.

The pure joy of the engineer version though, is as seen in the video, you combo it with magnet pull on the tool kit. Unblockable 1,200 range pull. It brings me absolute undiluted joy to pull people off of walls or out of their cloud into the loving embrace of my transmogrifying potion of feathery moa goodness.

[Mell.4873]

I have rarely seen the Moa work becouse most people use it at the wrong time or when their enemy is about to die. It really only counters very specific playstyles, builds that relies on damage immunity or blocks. 

[Chaba.5410]

6 hours ago, Remus Darkblight.1673 said:

The pure joy of the engineer version though, is as seen in the video, you combo it with magnet pull on the tool kit.

A bit more than just magnet pull and moa.  The thief gets dazed after being moa'd so he can't do anything.  Hilarity.

[TheGrimm.5624]

On 12/10/2023 at 12:23 PM, XenesisII.1540 said:

Moa needs to exist because of all the bunker builds now. Or the annoying build that goes into stealth 90% of combat. 🤷‍♂️

Half the time players can get away with the dash on moa, or survive because of bunker friends.

My only question is why mesmer moa takes 1/2s longer to cast, and has a 30s longer cooldown.

☕

Moa needs to remain a thing from the other side too. Each time you get Moa'd you get more practice. And after that first time you get to drop a target in Moa form it's an addiction!  So +50 from me, this needs to remain a thing. Moa away Bock to the BOCK BOCK! Good times were had by all.

[Zebulon.1850]

Man, people find any learn to play issue to cry about.

In case you didn't notice, you have to play core engineer to have access to that skill.... Unlike mesmer who can run that on any spec.

[Twilight Tempest.7584]

2 hours ago, Mell.4873 said:

I have rarely seen the Moa work becouse most people use it at the wrong time or when their enemy is about to die. It really only counters very specific playstyles, builds that relies on damage immunity or blocks. 

If it's effective against block and damage-immunity playstyles, by extension it's effective against playstyles lacking block and damage-immunity.  Which is to say it's effective against everything, lol.  And why wouldn't it be?  As long as the Magnet hits, it's game over.  And there are a number of ways to maximize the odds of Magnet hitting: approaching a distracted target, approaching from out of their view, using stealth, or a combination thereof.

I'm struggling to see how this combo would ever fail unless used against someone actively fighting the engi, with opportunity to see the telegraph.

[Twilight Tempest.7584]

2 hours ago, Chaba.5410 said:

A bit more than just magnet pull and moa.  The thief gets dazed after being moa'd so he can't do anything.  Hilarity.

^ This is the point no one wants to address.

Too caught up in "Just dodge!" (the thing from off screen while in the middle of something else) and "Woohoo!  Kitten thieves!" (even though it could happen to anyone).

👉 Should there ever be a situation where a player can't do anything, and their keyboard might as well be disconnected? 👈

[Chaba.5410]

19 minutes ago, Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

^ This is the point no one wants to address.

Too caught up in "Just dodge!" (the thing from off screen while in the middle of something else) and "Woohoo!  Kitten thieves!" (even though it could happen to anyone).

👉 Should there ever be a situation where a player can't do anything, and their keyboard might as well be disconnected? 👈

Don't get me wrong.  I'm cheering for the engineer.  Little known fact that engineer has been considered a hard counter to thieves for a very long time and I'm glad to see that's still true.

[Vepa.6073]

Can we start posting thief "1-shot" videos here now? 😄

-I get what your saying, and you're partially right to say this build is designed around a "1-2-3" combo but there are plenty of these examples everywhere.

-Everyone wants a fair fight, but not every fight is fair. Think about it.

[Twilight Tempest.7584]

1 hour ago, Chaba.5410 said:

Don't get me wrong.  I'm cheering for the engineer.  Little known fact that engineer has been considered a hard counter to thieves for a very long time and I'm glad to see that's still true.

Don't worry.  I didn't get you wrong.  No one cheers for thieves.  That's a given.  But let's play "magically replace the thief in the video with any spec of your choice."  Would that change how people react?  Some yes, some no.  But intentionally or not, you still illustrated my point: The combo makes it so a player can't do anything.  When has that ever been healthy in a competitive mode?

Reality is, it's all fun and games so long as you're the one abusing it, and not the one being abused by it.  People really have a hard time putting themselves in another's shoes.  I might just work on changing that.  A future video might be a montage of abusing Magnet + Elixir X on everyone.  Make it go viral so enough copy cats abuse it too.  Then, and only then, might Daddy Anet take the naughty kids' toys away.

[Twilight Tempest.7584]

1 hour ago, Vepa.6073 said:

Can we start posting thief "1-shot" videos here now? 😄

-I get what your saying, and you're partially right to say this build is designed around a "1-2-3" combo but there are plenty of these examples everywhere.

-Everyone wants a fair fight, but not every fight is fair. Think about it.

Sure, if there's a thief "1-shot" that 100% locks out the skill bar for at least 3 seconds.

Show me where I said "1-2-3" combos are a problem, rather than "effectively disabling a player's keyboard" is a problem.  There is a difference.  Think about it.

[Vepa.6073]

you're 15k HP...how did you expect that fight to go? You didn't even see him coming until too late.

If you had diff gear/specs on you might have survived and turned it around, is that not true?

[Twilight Tempest.7584]

Just now, Vepa.6073 said:

you're 15k HP...how did you expect that fight to go? You didn't even see him coming until too late.

What "fight"?

Just now, Vepa.6073 said:

If you had diff gear/specs on you might have survived and turned it around, is that not true?

No matter what gear/specs were on, the skill bar would have been locked out for at least 3 seconds.  That is true.