Was just discussing Astral Acclaim

[Solvar.7953]

The rewards for doing them are better (even if you just go for gold, you'll get more under the new system than old).

But the lack of choices is certainly worse.  So depending on how you measure it, it could be better or could be worse.

People stating it is unequivocally better are just stating their opinion (like everything in the forum) - that is certainly not a fact.

[IAmNotMatthew.1058]

9 hours ago, Fueki.4753 said:

How exactly is it better to have a handful of pre-selected dailies now and no longer being able to choose from a larger pool?

I certainly don't consider the removal of choice to be an improvement.

 

Except WV has done more changes than just changing the number of dailies offered.

[Fueki.4753]

1 hour ago, IAmNotMatthew.1058 said:

Except WV has done more changes than just changing the number of dailies offered.

They could have taken all the auxiliary features, like the reward structure and put it on how the dailies work before.

There was literally no need to take away freedom of choice in order to change the reward structure.

And if the counter-argument is something flimsy that can be reduced to "too much currency per day", then just limit how much currency can be gained with dailies.

No matter how many auxiliary parts are being bolted on, removing choice is always bad.

Edited January 9 by Fueki.4753

[Cyninja.2954]

3 hours ago, Fueki.4753 said:

No matter how many auxiliary parts are being bolted on, removing choice is always bad.

That must not be true. Given players meaningless choice is unproductive. Similar thought process applies to choices which players can take which result in less fun game play.

Here is a nice quote on this topic:

Quote

Given the opportunity, players will optimize the fun out of a game.

- Soren Johnson (https://www.designer-notes.com/game-developer-column-17-water-finds-a-crack/)

Which is exactly what happened with the old daily system. Let's name some examples:

- afk though Spvp macthes - because daily

- afk thorugh the warg in WvW - because daily

- pick the fastest dailies to rush through, no matter if interesting - because daily

- log in - because daily

- the simple fact that things as choice overload exist

The claim that more choice is ALWAYS better is quite simply false. One could go further and distinguish this into "meaning full choice" is the only that matters, but that would take paragraphs of explaining.

[Fueki.4753]

1 hour ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

That must not be true. Given players meaningless choice is unproductive. Similar thought process applies to choices which players can take which result in less fun game play.

Different players like different things. Whether a choice is meaningless or not depends from person to person. Similarly, whether someone enjoys a daily or not depends on that player.

With being able to freely choose from twelve dailies, players were able to do the ones they enjoyed more, while not doing the ones they dislike.

Now, dailies are pre-determined and thus the choice of doing which ones to do and which ones to not do is gone. This means, if we get a daily we don't like, we no longer have the option to do other dailies instead.

It's not hard to see which system is far more player-friendly.

Edited January 9 by Fueki.4753

[Cyninja.2954]

9 minutes ago, Fueki.4753 said:

Different players like different things. Whether a choice is meaningless or not depends from person to person. Similarly, whether someone enjoys a daily or not depends on themselves.

With being able to freely choose from twelve dailies, players were able to do the ones they enjoyed more, while not doing the ones they dislike.

Yet some players were doing the ones which they could complete fastest, not the ones which they enjoyed the most. Again, many players will opt for the less fun but higher reward activity, especially as they grow more veteran in a game. More choice here merely leads to more ways to "game" the system.

The same applied to log in rewards. A subsection of players was only logging in to get the reward, even if not actually interested in the game. Some went even further and did so on alt accounts. There was no direct relationship between playing and reward. Instead it was/is a design approach around human behavior.

Log in rewards are a carry over from free to play and mobile games. It's a way to encourage log ins, even from players disinterested, in an attempt to drive engagement and activity which then can translate into spending. There is a reason it's so prevalent in today's gaming design and development versus many years ago and in general it is NOT in the players favor.

Quote

 

Now, dailies are pre-determined and thus the choice of doing which ones to do and which ones to not do is gone. This means, if we get a daily we don't like, we no longer have the option to do other dailies instead.

It's not hard to see which system is far more player-friendly.

 

The design goal of dailies was changed. The main focus is now encouraging interaction with the game instead of handing out free rewards. The interaction required is kept to a minimum time investment wise and sure, it could be improved. Meanwhile the rewards offered were significantly increased.

Edited January 9 by Cyninja.2954

[Fueki.4753]

1 hour ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

Yet some players were doing the ones which they could complete fastest, not the ones which they enjoyed the most. Again, many players will opt for the less fun but higher reward activity, especially as they grow more veteran in a game. More choice here merely leads to more ways to "game" the system.

If people just want to "get it over with", instead of enjoying the game more, just let them do it. I personally don't see a point it that, but if they choose to do that, it's on them. That also is part of being able to choose.

1 hour ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

The same applied to log in rewards. A subsection of players was only logging in to get the reward, even if not actually interested in the game. Some went even further and did so on alt accounts. There was no direct relationship between playing and reward. Instead it was/is a design approach around human behavior.

Other than locking things behind having paid for SotO and the annoyance of having to go through the horrendous mobile-inspired UI to get red of the red marker, I don't mind the change in the reward structure. I did dailies for the sake of doing them, not for the rewards. But not being able to choose puts a damper on my motivation.

1 hour ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

The design goal of dailies was changed. The main focus is now encouraging interaction with the game instead of handing out free rewards. The interaction required is kept to a minimum time investment wise and sure, it could be improved. Meanwhile the rewards offered were significantly increased.

They could have changed the types of dailies offered, without removing the system that allowed for freedom of choice.

If they didn't like dailies like viewing a Vista anymore, or waiting for one of three specific Veterans in WvW, they could just have replaced them in the pool of possible dailies, but still give players a list of twelve dailies to choose from.

If I don't want to do, for example, Spirit Vestibule every few days, I should have other dailies to choose from, like I had in the past. But instead of that, I either do junk I do not enjoy, or I don't get to do a set of dailies.

And again, my point is not about the rewards.

But if their new design goal was "let's get less players to complete their dailies" or "let's give players a worse deal by removing freedom of choice", they certainly have succeeded.

I certainly can't see how removing freedom of choice is encouraging interaction, when my thoughts regarding certain dailies can be reduced to "I don't want to do that. I guess I'll do less dailies today." And I doubt I'm the only one having these kinds of thoughts.

Edited January 9 by Fueki.4753

[Cyninja.2954]

1 hour ago, Fueki.4753 said:

If people just want to "get it over with", instead of enjoying the game more, just let them do it. I personally don't see a point it that, but if they choose to do that, it's on them. That also is part of being able to choose.

Keeping a system in place which promotes a "just get it over with" game play approach is flawed in its self, but let's just keep it at that.

Quote

Other than locking things behind having paid for SotO and the annoyance of having to go through the horrendous mobile-inspired UI to get red of the red marker, I don't mind the change in the reward structure. I did dailies for the sake of doing them, not for the rewards. But not being able to choose puts a damper on my motivation.

Ah, there we have the actual complaint: the good stuff is locked behind SotO. Got it.

Quote

They could have changed the types of dailies offered, without removing the system that allowed for freedom of choice.

Again, the system of offering so many dailies that only some were done (the "let's get this over with asap" ones) WAS one of the things to fix.

Quote

If I don't want to do, for example, Spirit Vestibule every few days, I should have other dailies to choose from, like I had in the past. But instead of that, I either do junk I do not enjoy, or I don't get to do a set of dailies.

You do. I have not 1nce done Spirit Vestibule and I have been completing every single weekly. What I haven't done is complete every single daily and lo and behold, I've not missed a single thing.

EDIT: fun fact, the developers even doubled down on this by moving more of the acclaim to the weekly, away from the daily. It's almost like they are encouraging players to not focus on dailies every single day.

Quote

 

And again, my point is not about the rewards.

But if their new design goal was "let's get less players to complete their dailies" or "let's give players a worse deal by removing freedom of choice", they certainly have succeeded.

I certainly can't see how removing freedom of choice is encouraging interaction, when my thoughts regarding certain dailies can be reduced to "I don't want to do that. I guess I'll do less dailies today." And I doubt I'm the only one having these kinds of thoughts.

 

That's the beauty of the new system: you are free to chose to SKIP a daily without being punished reward wise. Some players here should try this approach. Dailies are a suggestion, not a must do. See: FREEDOM of choice. Now manifested and realized with an overgenerous reward system which specifically does not rely on completing every single daily (in fact no daily at all, given that weeklies will give more acclaim than needed for all rewards).

You are even free to not log in every day without being "punished" reward wise. That's far more player friendly than the old log in system.

Edited January 9 by Cyninja.2954

[Fueki.4753]

23 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

Ah, there we have the actual complaint: the good stuff is locked behind SotO. Got it.

No, it's not. The only specific item from the Toilet that mildly interests me is the gloves skin and I can happily live without that.

25 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

Again, the system of offering so many dailies that only some were done (the "let's get this over with asap" ones) WAS one of the things to fix.

The existence of choice is not something that needs be fixed. And as already mentioned, I'm not against changing what kinds of dailies are being offered.

Offering more options makes more people having a positive experience with the dailies.  Offering no options (like it's now) means people will have less positive experience with dailies. 

Either they do now do dailies they don't like and have a bad experience from that, or they don't do them and don't have any experience and maybe are even left with a feeling of "not enough for me in there today".

36 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

That's the beauty of the new system: you are free to chose to SKIP a daily without being punished reward wise. Some players here should try this approach. Dailies are a suggestion, not a must do. See: FREEDOM of choice.

And since August I'm fully using that choice of not doing dailies.

But did you know? That choice is not a "beauty of the new system". It already has existed since the very introduction of dailies.

[Cyninja.2954]

16 minutes ago, Fueki.4753 said:

And since August I'm fully using that choice of not doing dailies.

But did you know? That choice is not a "beauty of the new system". It already has existed since the very introduction of dailies.

True, but now that choice extends to the login bonuses as well, given logging in daily is no more needed/encouraged/forced.

Win-win.

Edited January 9 by Cyninja.2954

[kharmin.7683]

29 minutes ago, Fueki.4753 said:

Offering more options makes more people having a positive experience with the dailies.

 

How many more?  Put a number on it.  I'd bet even then there would be some players who would want even more than that.  How could Anet appease them?  Where should Anet draw the line?

[Fueki.4753]

24 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

Win-win.

Since there are people who now have less motivation for the game due to the loss of choice between dailies, I wouldn't call it a win-win. But maybe that was one of the goals.

7 minutes ago, kharmin.7683 said:

How many more?  Put a number on it.  I'd bet even then there would be some players who would want even more than that.  How could Anet appease them?  Where should Anet draw the line?

There should be at least 12 a day, four per mode, like before. That way, players were able to choose whether they want to stay in one mode or mix the modes after seeing the full list, rather than having to decide one day earlier.

Edited January 9 by Fueki.4753

[Cuks.8241]

4 hours ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

Keeping a system in place which promotes a "just get it over with" game play approach is flawed in its self, but let's just keep it at that.

 

This hasnt change. It actually got worse.

In the old system I logged in, decided what mode I feel like playing today and did the dailies while playing what I enjoyed.

Now I login and if Im not locked in the mode I feel like playing today my choices are either "just get it over" or not doing it.

[Cuks.8241]

3 hours ago, kharmin.7683 said:

How many more?  Put a number on it.  I'd bet even then there would be some players who would want even more than that.  How could Anet appease them?  Where should Anet draw the line?

Very simple. There should be at least 9 dailies, 3 per mode available each day (on top of "login" task). So you can complete it in any mode you enjoy for a given day. 12 also makes sense since that is what we had, some redundancy.

They could make it 9 if you choose all 3 modes. 6 if you choose 2 modes and whatever you have now if you only have 1 mode selected (dont know how many are available, never had only 1 mode selected).

With a cap on a max AA per day.

Edited January 9 by Cuks.8241

[WRay.2391]

On 1/4/2024 at 5:33 PM, Super Hayes.6890 said:

This way is better. More reward options. Alt accounts are harder to profit from which should be better for the health of the game.

The problem with AA is it's time gated and can be spent on easy rewards that are account limited (6 AA for 1 gold bag, 90 limit).

You can get 90 bags in a week (540 AA), then you need to pick other rewards. Having 10 alt accounts and doing dailies on them for 10 days will give you 900 gold. Can you make this gold in 10 days on one account? So, while alts are harder to profit now, it's significantly more efficient as you can target rewards.

[Sobx.1758]

39 minutes ago, Cuks.8241 said:

This hasnt change. It actually got worse.

In the old system I logged in, decided what mode I feel like playing today and did the dailies while playing what I enjoyed.

Now I login and if Im not locked in the mode I feel like playing today my choices are either "just get it over" or not doing it.

Only if you forget about the rather big amount of spare AA you can earn, which means you can easly skip objectives and still have enough for what you want. If you feel the need to "just get over it", seemingly just so you can buy out the shop and spam the infinite 30aa gold option as much as you can then it's your choice, not some inherent necessity the current system has.

Edited January 9 by Sobx.1758

[kharmin.7683]

36 minutes ago, Cuks.8241 said:

Very simple. There should be at least 9 dailies, 3 per mode available each day (on top of "login" task). So you can complete it in any mode you enjoy for a given day. 12 also makes sense since that is what we had, some redundancy.

They could make it 9 if you choose all 3 modes. 6 if you choose 2 modes and whatever you have now if you only have 1 mode selected (dont know how many are available, never had only 1 mode selected).

With a cap on a max AA per day.

Why stop at 12?  If we had 20 or even 30 options, we'd cover a lot more players' preferences.  Let's make it 100 options! 

[WRay.2391]

7 minutes ago, kharmin.7683 said:

Why stop at 12?  If we had 20 or even 30 options, we'd cover a lot more players' preferences.  Let's make it 100 options! 

It would be called get rewarded for whatever you are doing ... And considering how easy dailies are anyway I don't see this as a problem.

Edited January 9 by WRay.2391
Typo

[firedragon.8953]

Late to this thread, but anyway, I like the vault. It gives unique cosmetics as well as valuable items. Now that they've added the reward track boosts for pvp and WvW dailies, I really have no complaints.

The old log-in rewards could be easily abused by someone with 70+ alt accounts. The new one is still profitable for those that play a couple alt accounts to farm mystic coins and/or gold for their main account. I think it's a fair compromise that actually requires a few minutes or running around a newbie zone or whatever, populating the world.

If you don't play much or ignore the dailies, the old log in rewards 28-day cycle gave 20 mystic coins and 50 laurels (if selecting bountiful laurels in final chest). Over 28 days with the new system, you get 140 acclaim for just logging in which is equivalent to 15 mystic coins or 14 laurels. Or you could do 4 days of dailies and get 22 mystic coins or whatever and then you don't even have to log in every day. The reality is you're guaranteed to make more than this though through VERY casual gameplay since a lot of dailies (+10AA) are like, loot 10 mobs, etc. If you engage so little with the game that you can't even achieve a couple daily tasks (not the daily chests) once and a while, then your not even really playing GW2, are you? And thus, such arguments are irrelevant.

[Firebeard.1746]

On 1/4/2024 at 5:33 PM, Super Hayes.6890 said:

This way is better. More reward options. Alt accounts are harder to profit from which should be better for the health of the game

They actually converted alt accounts to liquid gold over mats. They didn't completely erase them. The initial 90 gold for 6 aa is an easy dump. This was good because it rewards people for actually playing the game over alt account farming. And indirectly those alt accounts are fueling the economy as people who actually play trade their mats for the gold with the account farmers. The eod economy was ridiculously deflated and it was because of all the mats infused into the economy over gold. 

 

The biggest change was probably the silent nerf to spirit shard acquisition. They are no where near as common with them missing from the dailies. But it turned them back into what they were intended to be: and endgame currency that gets easier to earn the more ap/account unlocks you do. 

Edited January 10 by Firebeard.1746

[Jianyu.7065]

On 1/8/2024 at 6:25 AM, Astralporing.1957 said:

No. The new way is more beneficial to players that like the game to set the goals for them. It's not so beneficial for players that prefer to set the goals for themselves and dislike being railroaded into doing Spirit Vestibule on weekly basis (for example). It is more beneficial to players playing the same game mode all the time. It is slightly less beneficial to players that play the same mix of gamemodes all the time. It is not so good to those that prefer to play the mode that picks their fancy on that specific moment...

Basically, the system is more beneficial to players that are not a good fit for GW2 as it was originally designed and came from games that taught them to be lost without the game making decisions for them. And it is less beneficial for those that liked this game for the freeform playstyle it offered.

This system is basically a spreadsheet checklist form thrown in your face with the suggestion to fill it first before you can start having fun on that day. Which might be fun for those that like spreadsheets, but for me degrades the whole game experience.

Yes, i have noticed that i am earning more than i did in the previous system. I have noticed as well, that i am also having far less fun than before.

Your reply reads like you're trying to force your disappointment as being the actual reality - and it isnt. Its just your perspective and that reality is yours alone to bare.

The WV doesnt set your goals because there is far more to do, participate in, and accomplish than the tasks the WV offers. I agree that some of the task arent fun, but you dont have to complete every task in a set to earn the final reward. Sure, you lose a small amount of AA by doing so - but I also dislike the Spirit Vestibule, so I just avoid it and the losses havent occurred to me in a way thats bothersome. I agree that the WV can give the player more agency to choose tasks across the different game modes, and I would imagine that at some point this will probably change, however, your perspective on this is your perspective, and either way - players will still choose the tasks that are easiest, quickest, and most enjoyable to complete a set. Players who choose only PVE tasks now will likely only choose them when/if the WV is converted into allowing players to choose tasks from any game mode at any time.  

I dont agree with you at all on your second point there. I have played GW since day one, and I have played 2 since beta. I believe whole-heartedly that the WV is a very welcomed change across the player base and was designed with old and new players in mind. I've been playing RPG and adventure games all the way back to Zork on an IBM floppy disk in 1988. My catalogue for gaming runs from Baldur's Gate through Remnant and everything in between. You cant really assume that just because you dont like how something tastes that nobody else should like it either. With or without the WV, this game still retains its sense of adventure - how you choose to enjoy it is on you. If your sense of fun only exists in what you can gain from playing and not playing just because its fun to play, well - I guess I can find a way to shoehorn your point into understanding.

I think if you look at the WV like some kind of routine workload - that its something you must do just to get by, then you're cultivating your own ball and chain. I play this game because its a fun and relaxing way to release stress. I never play it feeling like I have to keep up with anyone, like I need this or that to fulfill my sense of pride. So, in that sense - the WV to me is just a bonus. I am going to play how I like to play regardless. Sometimes I dont even do the daily or weekly or special stuff. But what I love about the WV is that when I play, I dont have to wait until I reach a specific day for a specific log in reward. My itch for gaming is never in the same place for very long and it could take me months, a whole year even to get through 28 days of log in bonuses. Now, when I do play the game, I can complete a small set of engaging tasks, gain some AA, and then use that to purchase whatever I want/need from the WV. 

I think overall - a general personality trait for people is that some people welcome change and some people dont. Unfortunately, for the people who dont welcome change, well - change is a fundamental property of our ultimate reality, no matter your perspective. Everything is changing all the time and those who welcome and adapt to it usually continue forward with less stress and more smiles.

[Darkvulpine.5720]

The reward system is nice, though I do miss my loyalty chests.  Now, to get the gold increase I have to actively spend precious tokens instead of just get over time.

But the main problem I have, is the dailies and weeklies.  I already hate dailies and weeklies.  I didn't mind GW2's because I felt I didn't have to do them if I didn't want to, just a nice bonus.  Here I am now, in order to get some of the rewards I once could get just by logging in, I now have to do things I don't care to do.  On top of that, I can't just be like "eh, I feel like PvP today," or "I feel like WvW today."   I have to plan that ahead and my brain don't work like that.  Sometimes I'd do PvP so I can make a little more progress towards getting the phoenix rank, while getting the dailies out of the way. Two birds one stone.

My suggestion to fix this, is just have it be a simple bar.  Fill the bar by doing various activities each day.  Events, World Bosses, capture a Tower, Keep, or win a match in PvP.

each activity would reward a portion to the bar, each would give varied amounts of progress, once filled that counts towards Daily and eventually weekly.  Perhaps limit how much one could do a single thing.  like no more than 5 events (which only fills the daily bar 50%D 30%W)  easier tasks should give less progress and have a lower max progress cap.  No freebies like spend 50 Badges

Basically:  Just play the game, however you feel like playing, get rewarded.  WV dailies feels it goes against what GW2 had been laying out for the last 11 years, in open ended gameplay.  I want a game where I can just go and have an adventure, but when each of my friends have wildly different objectives now, it tears us apart, and I hate it.

Edited January 10 by Darkvulpine.5720

[Sobx.1758]

29 minutes ago, Darkvulpine.5720 said:

Basically:  Just play the game, however you feel like playing, get rewarded.  WV dailies feels it goes against what GW2 had been laying out for the last 11 years, in open ended gameplay.  I want a game where I can just go and have an adventure, but when each of my friends have wildly different objectives now, it tears us apart, and I hate it.

Did content you're talking about -wahtever it is- have its reward system removed? Because I'm pretty sure you are getting rewarded for completing events, killing mobs or playing wvw/pvp whenever you're playing them. Suddenly everything is supposed to specifically reward you with AA? Not getting AA as a reward doesn't mean you're not getting rewarded for playing the game's content.

Edited January 10 by Sobx.1758

[Darkvulpine.5720]

More that AA is perhaps too good a reward that not getting it on top of the generic loot, that I have to go out of my way to get, feels detrimental..  Where as before, I didn't have to worry about it, because the main reward was simply some gold and 10 achievement points.  Which was simple enough, nice to get, didn't feel I needed to go out of my way for, but even then I had a wide variety I could choose to do, instead of having to decide the day before what I wanted to do.

Edited January 10 by Darkvulpine.5720
fixed train of thought.

[Darkvulpine.5720]

Is it that bad to simply ask for more options?  while keeping the cap on AA the same?

either open all modes up, or let you choose after logging in, not the day or week or however long it was you last logged in, because you stopped playing for awhile?

This is why I suggest a simple bar, that fills.  every 25% is 10 AA, automatically deposited, fill it up and the little jiggly chest appears on the right, boom done

Login should also give the jiggly chest.  the WV interface can be laggy at times, would rather just have the chest like everything else, simple and easy.

same for weeklies, that as it fills up, only every 20% get 80 AA, plus bonus reward chest at 80%  (or just make it 100%, that'd be fine compromise for the added freedom.)