Don't you think Heal Druid needs a little shaving with the heal and cleanse? [Merged]

[Bastrii.3047]

On 1/15/2024 at 4:45 PM, Soilder.3607 said:

Also saying Druid provides only pure healing is the most non-sensical, based take I've ever heard in my entire life in regard to anything ever. Druid provides group prot, regen, vigor, swiftness, might, fury, stability, ALAC (PERMANENT ALAC), resistance, water fields, projectile denial, group stun break, group revive, ranged immob, crowd control, super speed, stealth. It's a loaded spec right now. And yes it can provide all of that in one build.

Providing all of that to a massive group in PvP is difficult at best, impossible at worst, and you can't provide Quickness as a Druid. You can provide a smoke field and some stealth in PvP, but in an organized group with coms, you still wouldn't make an insane play with it due to how chaotic PvP is. They can't provide perma-stability nor stacks of it, at best you'd get a couple from pets and that's it. Aegis is a rarity only provided by one pet, or by stone spirit (which you have to take for nearly 24/7 uptime on Prot). Keeping uptime on Prot, Regen, Vigor, Swiftness, and Fury is a balancing game of dumping ALL of your utilities (and you wouldn't have room for a stunbreak if you did). None of this is effective in practice because players don't clump as well in PvP, ranges are limited, and the cooldowns are different in PvP.

On a test dummy or in PvE, it's possible that a Support Druid could provide all of this with almost full uptime, but their healing suffers as a result. They have to choose between taking full uptime heals, damage, or alacrity, which is a problem point for support druid.

The projectile denial aspect is no longer relevant to just druid. In fact it's arguable that a Untamed is far superior for Projectile Blocking, as they can take a staff, siege turtle pet, and their pet can pop an additional untamed bubble. Druid only really has turtle and bubble.

Group stun break is not limited to just Druid. Any Ranger can take Protect Me!.

Group Revive is the most iconic part of druid. Doesn't always see use in PvP, more often people go down 1-3 at a time, not as a huge group. You're more likely to throw down GotS on a few people outside of your Search and Rescue! range.

Ranged immob is not limited to just Druid, as any pet with ranged immob can do it. And any Ranger spec can use staff.

Super speed and stealth is useful but not game breaking.

And all of these added together doesn't make Druid "absolutely loaded", because in group play, people spread out far too often to make any real use of it.

[BadSanta.6527]

i really dont get what people has aginst the ranger class 

pet is crap and if you dont like them well you better play another class 

heal druid is good healing but in order to use alac you need to enter avatr form which is not so fun mechanic 

dps ? yeha is good but so kitten most of the other classes 

when i heard firebrand player cry over druid it makes me laugh 

also i dont get the easy hand on the trigger in nerfing ranger , who even herd about condi untame overperforming ?

[Soilder.3607]

1 hour ago, Bastrii.3047 said:

Providing all of that to a massive group in PvP is difficult at best, impossible at worst, and you can't provide Quickness as a Druid. You can provide a smoke field and some stealth in PvP, but in an organized group with coms, you still wouldn't make an insane play with it due to how chaotic PvP is. They can't provide perma-stability nor stacks of it, at best you'd get a couple from pets and that's it. Aegis is a rarity only provided by one pet, or by stone spirit (which you have to take for nearly 24/7 uptime on Prot). Keeping uptime on Prot, Regen, Vigor, Swiftness, and Fury is a balancing game of dumping ALL of your utilities (and you wouldn't have room for a stunbreak if you did). None of this is effective in practice because players don't clump as well in PvP, ranges are limited, and the cooldowns are different in PvP.

On a test dummy or in PvE, it's possible that a Support Druid could provide all of this with almost full uptime, but their healing suffers as a result. They have to choose between taking full uptime heals, damage, or alacrity, which is a problem point for support druid.

The projectile denial aspect is no longer relevant to just druid. In fact it's arguable that a Untamed is far superior for Projectile Blocking, as they can take a staff, siege turtle pet, and their pet can pop an additional untamed bubble. Druid only really has turtle and bubble.

Group stun break is not limited to just Druid. Any Ranger can take Protect Me!.

Group Revive is the most iconic part of druid. Doesn't always see use in PvP, more often people go down 1-3 at a time, not as a huge group. You're more likely to throw down GotS on a few people outside of your Search and Rescue! range.

Ranged immob is not limited to just Druid, as any pet with ranged immob can do it. And any Ranger spec can use staff.

Super speed and stealth is useful but not game breaking.

And all of these added together doesn't make Druid "absolutely loaded", because in group play, people spread out far too often to make any real use of it.

The OP was talking about how Heal Druid performs in WvW and even posted screenshots from WvW. This topic is about Heal Druid in organized WvW groups. SPvP is entirely different and I have no comment on Druids place there.

[Bastrii.3047]

2 hours ago, Soilder.3607 said:

The OP was talking about how Heal Druid performs in WvW and even posted screenshots from WvW. This topic is about Heal Druid in organized WvW groups. SPvP is entirely different and I have no comment on Druids place there.

I was referring to WvW, I forgot about SPvP entirely (I just came back from WoW).

SPvP is different. I'm referring to WvW.

[Jski.6180]

For wvw it dose seem power creeped though it is missing some utility that say chron has (and well tempest is just gone from the meta at this point). I think it maybe better to buff the other support classes with more utility and or healing at this point.

The coming blast relic heal nerf should cut back druid healing out put though it will also hit the other support classes as well.

Druid is an good "mages support" with very low self support and more group support but in the melee ball it gets the same boon support as every one else kind of negating that "cost" to fill such an roll.

That where durid seems to be (i am still new to the class and i would want to run tempest any day over it but well durid is better then tempest at all points so what chose is there.)

[Qys.5937]

I dunno why not ask for other specs to get a tad bit of a buff instead of asking for some other class to get nerfed? Why is the first reaction of players to drag down X? 

[Soilder.3607]

3 hours ago, Bastrii.3047 said:

I was referring to WvW, I forgot about SPvP entirely (I just came back from WoW).

SPvP is different. I'm referring to WvW.

Ok then. I am referring to Heal Druid in organized WvW groups (15-50 man groups) so we will break down your post from that perspective

Quote

Providing all of that to a massive group in PvP is difficult at best, impossible at worst, and you can't provide Quickness as a Druid.

Druid provides Alac. No profession provides both alac and quickness in the same build so this is a non-issue. The only accepted sources of group quickness in WvW squads is either FB or Chrono and they do not compete for the spot that Druid fills. Druid is the best provider of alac in WvW because it is easy to give and permanently maintainble.

Quote

They can't provide perma-stability nor stacks of it, at best you'd get a couple from pets and that's it.

The Druid's role (again as the healer/cleanser in a party) is not to give stability so this is a non-issue. Pets don't give stability either. Any profession that gives stability that is not a Firebrand or Chrono is only giving supplemental amounts. It's not seen as the main source of stability, though it always helps even if its just a small amount (which the Druid can give with glyph of the stars.

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You can provide a smoke field and some stealth in PvP, but in an organized group with coms, you still wouldn't make an insane play with it due to how chaotic PvP is.

Most organized groups don't take advantage of the smoke field from the Smokescale. Some do though and in general it's used as an opener (stealthing before combat). It doesn't matter if it doesn't make insane plays because the fact that Druid can access it is a net advantage for the Druid vs Tempests and Vindicators who cannot give stealth.

Quote

Aegis is a rarity only provided by one pet, or by stone spirit (which you have to take for nearly 24/7 uptime on Prot). Keeping uptime on Prot, Regen, Vigor, Swiftness, and Fury is a balancing game of dumping ALL of your utilities (and you wouldn't have room for a stunbreak if you did). None of this is effective in practice because players don't clump as well in PvP, ranges are limited, and the cooldowns are different in PvP.

It doesn't matter if Druid gives aegis or not, it's merely a small benefit to be able to give it even if it's just from one source. Regeneration is always 100% perma with ease. Prot may or may not be perma depending on the build, but being able to give it even with just 25% or 50% uptime is a net advantage. Fury is 50% uptime provided passively from a trait so there is no dumping of utilities. Vigor comes from Invigorating Bond and doesn't require a player to dump utilities either. Swiftness comes from Call of the Wild which is usually used before combat during the buffing/might stacking phase.

It doesn't matter if the Druid can't give 100% uptime of X boon, the fact that they can give any of these boons is always a good thing.

Players in organized WvW squads always stay on tag so they are within range of each others boons and support. This is WvW 101. The extreme basics. The boons that Druid gives generally have large radii from their skills so this is a non-issue. 

7 hours ago, Bastrii.3047 said:

On a test dummy or in PvE, it's possible that a Support Druid could provide all of this with almost full uptime, but their healing suffers as a result. They have to choose between taking full uptime heals, damage, or alacrity, which is a problem point for support druid.

This is totally irrelevant for WvW. Support Druid/Heal Druid only has to choose between giving alacrity and having bigger heals. It doesn't matter if Druid cannot do damage because that is not their role. If a Druid chooses to give Alac then they do tradeoff bigger heals but a good Druid can still sustain over 10k healing/second in a long duration fight with the Alac trait so they're still out healing everything but a vindicator.

Quote

 

The projectile denial aspect is no longer relevant to just druid. In fact it's arguable that a Untamed is far superior for Projectile Blocking, as they can take a staff, siege turtle pet, and their pet can pop an additional untamed bubble. Druid only really has turtle and bubble.

Group stun break is not limited to just Druid. Any Ranger can take Protect Me!.

Group Revive is the most iconic part of druid. Doesn't always see use in PvP, more often people go down 1-3 at a time, not as a huge group. You're more likely to throw down GotS on a few people outside of your Search and Rescue! range.

Ranged immob is not limited to just Druid, as any pet with ranged immob can do it. And any Ranger spec can use staff.

 

Untamed doesn't have a place in organized WvW squads so that comparison is meaningless. The pet also dies leaving the Untamed bubble unusable. 

Druid has two great revive skills and good fight guilds take advantage of these skills to revive their downs and prevent the enemy from getting a kill. Group revive is a big deal and bad guilds don't take advantage of it. That's part of the reason why they lose against better fight guilds/groups.

It doesn't matter that all these things Druid does can also be done by other professions. Druid does them all in one role, taking up just one party slot. That's why it's in the meta. That's why the best fight guilds in WvW run Druids and Vindicators. 

From your post, you genuinely don't understand the role Druid has in organized WvW groups and you don't understand how these fights take place and what the party compositions are of each subgroup. You can learn by going into WvW and looking for fight guilds to join who use voice communication and have a standardized team composition. Don't play with just one group/guild either, play with multiple so you get a variety of perspectives on team builds and roles.

 

Edited January 18 by Soilder.3607

[PrinceValentine.9320]

8 hours ago, Soilder.3607 said:

Druid has two great revive skills and good fight guilds take advantage of these skills to revive their downs and prevent the enemy from getting a kill. Group revive is a big deal and bad guilds don't take advantage of it. That's part of the reason why they lose against better fight guilds/groups.

 

And that Group Revive (GoTS) comes with insane amount of healing/cleanses as well on top of Stab. This maybe the main culprit why other support classes cannot keep up. It maybe good to either tone down the heal/cleanse of this skill or limit the number of allies it revives or only give Stab when it's out of CA. 

[PrinceValentine.9320]

I've heard Support Druid is also overperforming in High Level PvE contents. This maybe a potential issue that devs can also check on. 

Edited January 19 by PrinceValentine.9320

[Sansar.1302]

1 hour ago, PrinceValentine.9320 said:

I've heard Support Druid is also overperforming in High Level PvE contents. This maybe a potential issue that devs can also check on. 

lol no, with how alac is on druid it is no way it is abel to overpreform.

[CafPow.1542]

1 hour ago, PrinceValentine.9320 said:

I've heard Support Druid is also overperforming in High Level PvE contents. This maybe a potential issue that devs can also check on. 

If they would check that, they would have done that on firebrands years ago.

Edited January 19 by CafPow.1542

[Jski.6180]

1 hour ago, PrinceValentine.9320 said:

I've heard Support Druid is also overperforming in High Level PvE contents. This maybe a potential issue that devs can also check on. 

Is it replacing 2 or more healing rolls? That kind of the only way it could truly be overperforming as an support class. Just giving alacrity alone is not enofe as other support healing classes can do that with out bench mark healing needs. Healing support caps for pve content unlike dps. Unless it is freeing up an space for another dps class.

Durid being very weak to hard cc due to giving up all self stab generation is good for balancing in wvw. I just do not know how you get over the melee ball support for ppl to snip the durid (kind of how the risk reward of running an mages support should work in wvw.)

I still want to see tempest have some play for support in wvw something that is not usable in an organized combat (too much risk though overloads for low reward). That is something durid healing support has comply replaced.

[Mell.4873]

On 1/15/2024 at 7:09 PM, PrinceValentine.9320 said:

Nowadays, firebrand has become an alternative support. Other classes can do what a firebrand can.  It can’t be denied that Druid is dominating the support spot and a number of other specs like FB, scrapper and vindicators are left in the dust. 

That isn't true, what druid does best is clashing in CA. What heals do you have to offer for the 10 seconds between Celestial Avatar. Healing Trap? Staff 1, 2 spam?

Druid is amazing if your Zerg know how to use but can be really weak. For instance, Druid compared to other elites it has very little access to Stability with just its ultimate being able to pulse it in a small area.

If you compare that to Mesmer, it can endlessly pulse either Aegis or Stability if needed over a small window. Same goes with Guardian and Revenant with utilities. 

Edited January 19 by Mell.4873

[frazazel.7501]

I think Druid could use a bit of a rework. It's an elite spec that was built specifically to be a healer, with its weapon, class mechanic, traits and utility skills all designed for that role. At the time of its introduction, it was the only healer spec. Now every non-warrior class has a healer build option that does enough healing without having that as its entire identity.

Druid got a minor rework to give it a condi dps build option, which is great. I'd like a little bit more, though.

[Mell.4873]

On 1/19/2024 at 4:09 PM, PrinceValentine.9320 said:

And that Group Revive (GoTS) comes with insane amount of healing/cleanses as well on top of Stab. This maybe the main culprit why other support classes cannot keep up. It maybe good to either tone down the heal/cleanse of this skill or limit the number of allies it revives or only give Stab when it's out of CA. 

The stability is a mute point since it is not on demand. It probably does have the highest uptime of stabily but it is all going to waste. 

Natural Convergence and Glyph of Equility both have group stabily but either require to be to be in CA and channel it. Natural Convergence even requires you to be stationary, talk about ackward for a Zerg to plan around. 

The reality to make use of Druids you need to build your Zerg for it. Cycling clashes on 10 second intervals and staying stationary for about 4 second during the clash for all of the channels to work. Do that then A+ Druid is op. 

[Mell.4873]

5 hours ago, frazazel.7501 said:

I think Druid could use a bit of a rework. It's an elite spec that was built specifically to be a healer, with its weapon, class mechanic, traits and utility skills all designed for that role. At the time of its introduction, it was the only healer spec. Now every non-warrior class has a healer build option that does enough healing without having that as its entire identity.

Druid got a minor rework to give it a condi dps build option, which is great. I'd like a little bit more, though.

I couldn't agree more, I want more options for stealth. 

It seems like this could be a good niche for it especially sPvP or Roaming. The real downside to Druid is CA which turn what is a high intensity class Ranger into a more slow pace experience. 

They should do two things, another stealth pet and convert some of the glyphs to a stealth version. 

[Sirius.4510]

On 1/19/2024 at 7:08 AM, PrinceValentine.9320 said:

I've heard Support Druid is also overperforming in High Level PvE contents. This maybe a potential issue that devs can also check on. 

It isn't. It's a good choice again (unlike the "HAM everywhere all the time" days in 2022) but Mechanist, Firebrand, Chrono etc are all still more popular.

[anduriell.6280]

I haven’t been playing from long ago so I am not that sure Druid is actually over performing or it is just other mains fear  Druid is a menace to their spot in zergs. But I am sure this three points I bring out are still valid.:

* Ranger pets should be able to stay hidden during combat. This would significantly benefit Druid as it does not have any focused trait in its toolkit and that is fine for a healer. 
* specialization is still a bit clunky with the double or triple cooldown management. 
* rewards for healers is still subpar in WvW in general. 

 

[Bastrii.3047]

On 1/18/2024 at 1:25 PM, Soilder.3607 said:

From your post, you genuinely don't understand the role Druid has in organized WvW groups and you don't understand how these fights take place and what the party compositions are of each subgroup. You can learn by going into WvW and looking for fight guilds to join who use voice communication and have a standardized team composition. Don't play with just one group/guild either, play with multiple so you get a variety of perspectives on team builds and roles.

 

Okay, then let's play the math game, since you're going to make claims without cause nor proof. If I give a basic reply, that's fair. But this is unwarranted.

Quote

Regeneration is always 100% perma with ease.

You understand that Regeneration is a number ticker, right? But have you done the math on this? How much healing potential is behind regen? Because regeneration accounts for the *overwhelming* majority of healing output for any healer. Not because it gives meaningful heals (if you are being tagged by two players, a couple hundred HP/sec isn't going to save you) but because it's applying consistent, slow burn heals to *every single player* affected by it.

If you are in a group of 40 people, and you have not one, but *several* sources of regen, you are going to massively inflate your numbers. Exclude regen from the pool and you see the actual HP/S from all healers, and that's when you'll notice something

*DRUID IS THE ONLY CLASS POPPING OUT CONSISTENT AND NEAR OVERWHELMING REGEN.* Even in Valentine's own pictures, there's a boon breakdown on his details. And the druids? They're pumping out *HUNDREDS* of applications of regeneration. It's literally painted on the screen.

Now this comes back to healing numbers. Why is this important? Well, if you're pumping out 300-400 hp/s through regen to 5-10 people, your BASE HEAL RATE is - at a MINIMUM - 1500 HP/S. That's WITHOUT your burst heals. Regen is *great* for raids because of this, they repair chip damage.

But PvP doesn't revolve around chip damage so much as it does taking down raid lead's call and picks whenever the other zerg scatters in a retreat, or whenever a backline overextends or a squishy shows their head. Sure, tossing 30 AoEs on a single point is effective, but that's not happening unless if you're taking a point, or saving a point from capture. Or, if a wall goes down and there's a rush.

You can assume I lack game knowledge, and I'll assume you're lacking basic math skills. Druids numbers are through regen. Nature Magic specifically applies regen on Warhorn and on Beast Skills. Their cleanses come from 2 abilities - one of which is an active ability in Astral Form with a 4 second cooldown (seed of life) and Healing Spring (their healing skill). Healing Spring also applies TONS of regen, further boosting their numbers. And Healing Magic gives a flat +20% extra regen potency as a MINOR trait. On a class that pops out the MOST regen in the game.

Players are not limited to just 5 regen targets. They're limited to 5 targets per application. And if you're pulsing out 25 total stacks of Regen through one ability, and you have several abilities that pump out 5 stacks of regen, you've basically suffused the entire raid with at least 20+ outgoing regen applications at the MINIMUM, more if you don't overlap.

Tracking numbers is pointless. And again - cleanses. Same problem. One of the best healing abilities in the game is Healing Spring for raids. Because it pops out regen, but it also cleanses 2 conditions every 2 seconds for 10 seconds as long as players are inside of the generous field range. It's a carry in raids because it nullifies a ton of incoming conditions. But in PvP/WvW, it's especially strong, because it can nullify a condi build entirely for 10 straight seconds, while at the same time beefing up your healing numbers tremendously.

Tracking HP/s has done nothing but prove that healing spring is a good ability. Problematic? Not really. There are far more concerning things than healing spring, power creep being one of them (and healing spring has always been this good, it's not an issue).

In the build in the picture, it's highly likely that the druid could pop out 30 regens within 10 seconds to an entire raid. And with full Concentration, and high spread, they could churn out a solid 400 x 30 hp a second. That's 12k hp/s. But is that effective healing? For chip damage and random AoE, yes.

But will it save a life? Not necessarily. What saves a life is large chunk healing (CA 3, Staff 3). These are the crucial healers. And there's a limit to how many you can pop out. Those prevent downs. Those stop a burst. Those counter a power class cleaving someone in half.

If you brought turtle and staff, you could block projectiles for a bit. But pets are more often than not dead on arrival in WvW, especially if you push through a choke. So if anything, that leaves staff 5. And guess what Staff 5 does? It gives regen. And it converts projectiles into healing.

Regen is amazing in PvE but it doesn't carry hard in PvP. It mitigates AoE and reduces risk/keeps you topped up, but it does NOT prevent the hammer from coming down on some idiot who didn't fall back on the retreat. That would be active healing abilities. That would be barrier. That would be aegis. That would be CA 3 and spamming your heart out on CA 1/2. And if someone goes down, you don't have an instant undo button. You have Glyph of the Stars - amazing! Yes. It can turn the tide if played right. But a Signet rez is instant and straight up unfair at times. And instantly pulling someone up from the ground is superior to Glyph, because it will 100% of the time work. I've had so many Glyphs fail because the damage was too great, the ally was too deep, or the pressure was too high from AoE. I've never had a signet rez fail except whenever a squishy gets up and immediately flops because they're far out of position.

From your post, you genuinely don't understand basic math. You're so absorbed in the numbers and what they're trying to convey to you that you've completely detached the actual effectiveness from the profession. The numbers are irrelevant because the in-practice numbers are FAR different. Anyone being focused down is dead regardless of regen. That regen is bloating a number on your screen. You're crying about ALL healing skills as a result, their "overall effectiveness and meta use" because you only see "big healing number" without knowing the actual breakdown of what's going on. Regeneration and passive heals are the number bloater in any encounter. Any profession that pumps out regen is going to be BiS for heals if you're only looking at the surface without digging too deep into it. And druid's actual healing skills, their core abilities in CA, aren't overtuned nor broken. So because people rush to the profession, and see they're doing well and they're pushing big numbers, and people like you crowned it the new meta. Without realizing that preventing damage wholesale and actual mitigation is far more effective than regen. That the actual backbone of the raid is mitigation. Which Druid DOES cover through condi cleanse in Healing Spring, and can prevent some friendlies from being burst down through CA. The Glyph of the Stars? Debatable at best.

[Soilder.3607]

2 hours ago, Bastrii.3047 said:

Okay, then let's play the math game, since you're going to make claims without cause nor proof. If I give a basic reply, that's fair. But this is unwarranted.

You understand that Regeneration is a number ticker, right? But have you done the math on this? How much healing potential is behind regen? Because regeneration accounts for the *overwhelming* majority of healing output for any healer. Not because it gives meaningful heals (if you are being tagged by two players, a couple hundred HP/sec isn't going to save you) but because it's applying consistent, slow burn heals to *every single player* affected by it.

If you are in a group of 40 people, and you have not one, but *several* sources of regen, you are going to massively inflate your numbers. Exclude regen from the pool and you see the actual HP/S from all healers, and that's when you'll notice something

*DRUID IS THE ONLY CLASS POPPING OUT CONSISTENT AND NEAR OVERWHELMING REGEN.* Even in Valentine's own pictures, there's a boon breakdown on his details. And the druids? They're pumping out *HUNDREDS* of applications of regeneration. It's literally painted on the screen.

Now this comes back to healing numbers. Why is this important? Well, if you're pumping out 300-400 hp/s through regen to 5-10 people, your BASE HEAL RATE is - at a MINIMUM - 1500 HP/S. That's WITHOUT your burst heals. Regen is *great* for raids because of this, they repair chip damage.

But PvP doesn't revolve around chip damage so much as it does taking down raid lead's call and picks whenever the other zerg scatters in a retreat, or whenever a backline overextends or a squishy shows their head. Sure, tossing 30 AoEs on a single point is effective, but that's not happening unless if you're taking a point, or saving a point from capture. Or, if a wall goes down and there's a rush.

You can assume I lack game knowledge, and I'll assume you're lacking basic math skills. Druids numbers are through regen. Nature Magic specifically applies regen on Warhorn and on Beast Skills. Their cleanses come from 2 abilities - one of which is an active ability in Astral Form with a 4 second cooldown (seed of life) and Healing Spring (their healing skill). Healing Spring also applies TONS of regen, further boosting their numbers. And Healing Magic gives a flat +20% extra regen potency as a MINOR trait. On a class that pops out the MOST regen in the game.

Players are not limited to just 5 regen targets. They're limited to 5 targets per application. And if you're pulsing out 25 total stacks of Regen through one ability, and you have several abilities that pump out 5 stacks of regen, you've basically suffused the entire raid with at least 20+ outgoing regen applications at the MINIMUM, more if you don't overlap.

Tracking numbers is pointless. And again - cleanses. Same problem. One of the best healing abilities in the game is Healing Spring for raids. Because it pops out regen, but it also cleanses 2 conditions every 2 seconds for 10 seconds as long as players are inside of the generous field range. It's a carry in raids because it nullifies a ton of incoming conditions. But in PvP/WvW, it's especially strong, because it can nullify a condi build entirely for 10 straight seconds, while at the same time beefing up your healing numbers tremendously.

Tracking HP/s has done nothing but prove that healing spring is a good ability. Problematic? Not really. There are far more concerning things than healing spring, power creep being one of them (and healing spring has always been this good, it's not an issue).

In the build in the picture, it's highly likely that the druid could pop out 30 regens within 10 seconds to an entire raid. And with full Concentration, and high spread, they could churn out a solid 400 x 30 hp a second. That's 12k hp/s. But is that effective healing? For chip damage and random AoE, yes.

But will it save a life? Not necessarily. What saves a life is large chunk healing (CA 3, Staff 3). These are the crucial healers. And there's a limit to how many you can pop out. Those prevent downs. Those stop a burst. Those counter a power class cleaving someone in half.

If you brought turtle and staff, you could block projectiles for a bit. But pets are more often than not dead on arrival in WvW, especially if you push through a choke. So if anything, that leaves staff 5. And guess what Staff 5 does? It gives regen. And it converts projectiles into healing.

Regen is amazing in PvE but it doesn't carry hard in PvP. It mitigates AoE and reduces risk/keeps you topped up, but it does NOT prevent the hammer from coming down on some idiot who didn't fall back on the retreat. That would be active healing abilities. That would be barrier. That would be aegis. That would be CA 3 and spamming your heart out on CA 1/2. And if someone goes down, you don't have an instant undo button. You have Glyph of the Stars - amazing! Yes. It can turn the tide if played right. But a Signet rez is instant and straight up unfair at times. And instantly pulling someone up from the ground is superior to Glyph, because it will 100% of the time work. I've had so many Glyphs fail because the damage was too great, the ally was too deep, or the pressure was too high from AoE. I've never had a signet rez fail except whenever a squishy gets up and immediately flops because they're far out of position.

From your post, you genuinely don't understand basic math. You're so absorbed in the numbers and what they're trying to convey to you that you've completely detached the actual effectiveness from the profession. The numbers are irrelevant because the in-practice numbers are FAR different. Anyone being focused down is dead regardless of regen. That regen is bloating a number on your screen. You're crying about ALL healing skills as a result, their "overall effectiveness and meta use" because you only see "big healing number" without knowing the actual breakdown of what's going on. Regeneration and passive heals are the number bloater in any encounter. Any profession that pumps out regen is going to be BiS for heals if you're only looking at the surface without digging too deep into it. And druid's actual healing skills, their core abilities in CA, aren't overtuned nor broken. So because people rush to the profession, and see they're doing well and they're pushing big numbers, and people like you crowned it the new meta. Without realizing that preventing damage wholesale and actual mitigation is far more effective than regen. That the actual backbone of the raid is mitigation. Which Druid DOES cover through condi cleanse in Healing Spring, and can prevent some friendlies from being burst down through CA. The Glyph of the Stars? Debatable at best.

Mr. Bastrii,

Again you are making claims without understanding the game mode, that game mode being large scale, organized WvW fights. Everything in your post and everything in your prior posts is meaningless and bears no relation to how this specific aspect of the game mode is played. Stop trying to make arguments when you don't understand the very basics of large scale, organized WvW combat.

 

Your focus on regeneration is meaningless. Yea it's a good boon and with Druid it's a 600-700 tick heal that they can easily maintain on 5-10 people in a squad. So what? Druid is still loaded with a plethora of other healing abilities so that they have virtually no downtime in healing. And with Druids giving either perma Alac or taking Lingering Light, they only need to wait 5-8 seconds to get back into CA mode.

 

Let's go back to something you said in your previous post to prove that you do not understand the very basics of large scale, organized WvW combat.

On 1/18/2024 at 6:13 AM, Bastrii.3047 said:

And all of these added together doesn't make Druid "absolutely loaded", because in group play, people spread out far too often to make any real use of it.

Here is where any WvW player who plays in organized groups will realize that you have no clue regarding anything you are talking about. The most basic element of large scale, organized WvW combat is that every player in a squad stays as close as possible to the commanders tag that way healing, boons, and other forms of support can be shared with as many people as possible. The fact that you have stated that these players spread out too far to make use of the Druids supportive abilities means that you have absolutely no idea how large scale, organized WvW combat takes place. Stop trying to argue with me when you don't even play the game mode. And by game mode I am not talking about WvW at large, I am talking specifically about large scale, organized WvW fights. If you had played even one time in a REAL organized fight group (one that uses discord for voice communication, organizes parties based on specific player roles, and has weekly runs) you would understand why what you said was entirely wrong. I cannot help you to understand this game mode if you refuse to play it then make baseless arguments.

 

I will not respond to any of your further posts until you join a WvW fight guild, hop on their discord, and begin playing with them in large scale, organized fights. If you don't know where to look to find these guilds, you can message me directly and I can get you into many of them.

Edited January 31 by Soilder.3607

[Bastrii.3047]

On 1/31/2024 at 7:18 AM, Soilder.3607 said:

Mr. Bastrii,

Again you are making claims without understanding the game mode, that game mode being large scale, organized WvW fights. Everything in your post and everything in your prior posts is meaningless and bears no relation to how this specific aspect of the game mode is played. Stop trying to make arguments when you don't understand the very basics of large scale, organized WvW combat.

 

Your focus on regeneration is meaningless. Yea it's a good boon and with Druid it's a 600-700 tick heal that they can easily maintain on 5-10 people in a squad. So what? Druid is still loaded with a plethora of other healing abilities so that they have virtually no downtime in healing. And with Druids giving either perma Alac or taking Lingering Light, they only need to wait 5-8 seconds to get back into CA mode.

 

Let's go back to something you said in your previous post to prove that you do not understand the very basics of large scale, organized WvW combat.

Here is where any WvW player who plays in organized groups will realize that you have no clue regarding anything you are talking about. The most basic element of large scale, organized WvW combat is that every player in a squad stays as close as possible to the commanders tag that way healing, boons, and other forms of support can be shared with as many people as possible. The fact that you have stated that these players spread out too far to make use of the Druids supportive abilities means that you have absolutely no idea how large scale, organized WvW combat takes place. Stop trying to argue with me when you don't even play the game mode. And by game mode I am not talking about WvW at large, I am talking specifically about large scale, organized WvW fights. If you had played even one time in a REAL organized fight group (one that uses discord for voice communication, organizes parties based on specific player roles, and has weekly runs) you would understand why what you said was entirely wrong. I cannot help you to understand this game mode if you refuse to play it then make baseless arguments.

 

I will not respond to any of your further posts until you join a WvW fight guild, hop on their discord, and begin playing with them in large scale, organized fights. If you don't know where to look to find these guilds, you can message me directly and I can get you into many of them.

*There is very little wrong with Druid as it stands right now regardless of whatever context you try to conjure up.* You have no data to counter my argument, no actual point to make other than saying "WvW groups" 40x. The entire premise of this thread is that the "numbers are off". They're not. You're not even supposed to *see* the numbers to be fair, that's not even *intended*. One add on in a game that won't even allow you to change the HUD spawned this thread, and now that I've effectively nullified your entire point and argument, you're trying to make this a point in "knowledge".

My point still stands. Druids do not need skimming. And if you want to talk about broken builds, Support Scourge can *still* pump 25k DPS, and their only downfall is being slightly composition sensitive. Their barrier output isn't super reliant on healing power, so they can take a utility slot instead of a support and do really well. And since you're so keen on group composition, why not try bringing a Herald alongside them, hm? I will not respond to any of your further posts until you join a WvW fight guild, hop on their discord, and begin playing with them in large scale, organized fights as Support Scourge. If you don't know where to look to find these guilds, you can message me directly and I can get you into many of them. :^)

Quote

Mr. Bastrii,

Miss. Miss Bastrii.

[Jski.6180]

Well they for sure buffed support scraper (barrier out put and clear out put) but did nothing for support tempest so druid is out preforming at least one of the old "support classes" in the wvw environment.

All support lost some healing out put due to the blast relic nerf so that mostly an net 0 for druid over all support ability in wvw.

Druid should be the best raw healing class but tempest is not filling its own roll atm (auras are not enofe in there current state.) So from the point of view of tempest druid is over-preforming its healing / clear roll (as well as alacrity.) All from wvw environment.

[BatelGeuce.3591]

On 1/19/2024 at 4:08 PM, PrinceValentine.9320 said:

I've heard Support Druid is also overperforming in High Level PvE contents. This maybe a potential issue that devs can also check on. 

We've already had a balance lead that based his balancing decisions on hearsay, how about you go back to your overperforming hFB that was buffed recently (again) and complain to Anet they touched it in inappropriate places.

I'd recommend playing heal scourge anyway, it's healing potential is great and you have F4 and the signet to save people from dying in heavy AoEs. I'll only go back to druid after they nerf scourge.

Edited February 1 by BatelGeuce.3591

[Bastrii.3047]

Druid is not broken in output. Basing balancing decisions around non-essential numbers is how you butcher a spec. The overwhelming majority of heals that Druid produces is from passive healing through Regeneration. If you remove Regeneration from whatever healing numbers you have for all professions churning out heals, the healing difference is noticeable. But other professions provide consistent damage negation, auras, and barrier to compensate for this. If you nerfed Druid's healing potential to match any other profession, then their viability plummets dramatically.

Regeneration is not a make-all-break-all boon. In PvE, PvP, and WvW, regeneration will not save you if you have 2000 HP left. You should realize that actual health numbers are not as essential as how many actual hits you can take before you are dead.

If you have 22,000 HP, that could be a few dozen hits or several depending on the enemy's output. In raids and PvE, this is usually 3-6 hits, in PvP and WvW, it's better to track this as actual survival time due to attack speed variations and how professions operate/how conditions work. Regeneration does not restore a hit every second in PvE. It takes several seconds for a player to restore enough health through regeneration alone to negate an extra hit. In PvP and WvW, Regeneration may give you an extra 0.1 second alive every second it's active. Considering how most time to down is under several seconds without dodging or defensive play, this is entirely negligible healing. If you are being focused without defensive abilities, your health bar could vanish in as little as four seconds. An extra 0.4 seconds will not save you.

But boons like Protection give you an effective +33% flat health against Power damage, and Resolution grants the same effect for Condition Damage. Barrier is also affective health. Blocking through Aegis is affective health. Blocking through actual blocking is affective health. Other specs offer these in heaps and spades. Druid does not. Druid offers healing. Not barrier regeneration. Not resolution. They have great condi cleanse, but they also can't really reduce condi damage otherwise.

Druid is built around raw numbers. Removing the raw numbers aspect would be similar to removing Barrier generation from Scourge. You would be destroying the niche of the class without cause. Players have a misconception on what provides actual survival to a player, and we don't have tools to really show survival.

If you want to see the actual effectiveness of a healing spec, we need better tools to see this in-game. We need to be able to track effective damage reduction and time until death, not raw healing numbers. One of the only ways we can track actual effective healing output is through damage field testing on the Raid Golem, and the numbers and cooldowns aren't the same in this scenario. So we don't have actual tools to track survival in-game. Add ons are also ineffective for tracking survival, as they only provide raw data.

If we want to check actual survival rate, we would need a couple people to painstakingly get together on WvW, and have them wail on someone while a healer tries to keep them alive. The healer would need to be in actual gear set ups and know what they're doing. The player should be in average gear and an adventurer profession. The other players should have similar, average DPS outputs in WvW.

To perform the test, you would need at least 3 enemy attackers, one player on the healer's team to serve as a target dummy, and one person who has access to all support specs - or multiple people with access to all support specs, and knowledge on how to use them. You would need to make sure that the enemy players fight with the same rotation each and every time. You would also need a scenario where there is at least five allied players clumped together to test group healing and survival. This would be the only way to test actual healing effectiveness. Any other tool, calculator, or other method would no yield useful results. You need a similar scenario every time.

Anet devs could add tools to test this in-game, but doing so might be a challenge in of itself.

[latlat.4516]

If you are talking about WvW support, I'll ask you to consider this : 

 

- auramancer has about he same cleansing potency as druid, with a bit less flexibilty but more precision its usage

- hvindi has the same healing potency as druid, a bit less cleansing power but can maintain resistance 100% of the time, which is more effective than any cleansing capacity

- the weak point of hChrono is that it is on the weak side healing-wise (because it does not have the riffle yet) , but otherwise can litteraly replace any other support class (including firebrand) and still keeping leeway to have additional utility. 

- hScourge. Barrier, alacrity, and transfusion go brrr... 

 

I'm not saying that druid is not an excellent class that has high numbers. But keep in mind that druid has near 0 resistance (7 seconds over 30), which is the current meta defining boon since we are playing with 1 dps per sub and you better make sure weakness and blindness does not affect its damage even for a fraction of a second.  

Also arcdps is fine, but you need to critically think about it as well. Druid dispelling is strong phases where a pulsating AoE can tick multiple times (during crosses or in Chinese gameplay for example), which are situations that are enabled because there are a lot of hvindi and hchrono. So druid basically leeches its own numbers because classes with a bit less over cleanse potential allows for the dps to bathe in enemy bombing.