Don't you think Heal Druid needs a little shaving with the heal and cleanse? [Merged]

[PrinceValentine.9320]

It has been a top cleanser and healer for more than a year now and it's going to become more OP because of the new mace.. Do you think it's time for other defensive support specs to share the Druid's spot in a party/squad? 

[Beddo.1907]

Other classes are doing just fine.

[Gotejjeken.1267]

We get it, FB is the red-headed stepchild of Guard.  

Back to the Guardian forums with you!

[BumboJumbo.1308]

In regards to wvw ranger kind of needs to be powerful because of the pet.

Pets die in 3 seconds in fights meaning that half of ranger is worthless to bring to zerg fights.

Look at untamed in how anet put a bunch of utility/control effects on unleashed pet. When the pet dies, so does untamed in it's role (whatever that role is in zerg fights).

[Oahkahmewolf.6210]

I like druid because it keeps my pet alive 😃

[Sandzibar.5134]

the absolute cheek of guardian players is insane...

[PrinceValentine.9320]

Not recommending to nerf it to the point that it becomes useless but a little shaving should be ok so other specs can shine too. Please see image links below for reference. Thoughts?

Image 1

Image 2

 

 

[Mell.4873]

Again its really just massive healing in a short amount of time. 

We don't really have a Snowcrows for healing so who knows if those numbers are inflated. CA has crazy HPS but it only lasts so long. 

Edited January 14 by Mell.4873

[bq pd.2148]

in those screenshots the healing is mostly compared to tempest.
alot of tempest heals are tied to their auras which do go onto the party if they are in range and they do not like heals just go off party when your party is fully healed. because of this druid will compensate the lacking or underperforming healers in other subgroups and steal their arc numbers more than tempest does. further with mostly tempests you will have almost squadwide regen ticks, as only the one with highest healing power (before outgoing modifiers) will get to heal with regen which is a ton.

a vindi should be able to outheal the druid but would be behind in cleanse (druid cleanses alot more than needed anyway so vindi still cleanse enough). they would have the option to perma projectile hate vs druid CC spamm.  nerfing druid just pushes more vindi heals to the front.

[Beddo.1907]

Considering Druid does no damage, the healing is burst>gap>burst and has limited utility and low stab, there is no reason to nerf it. 

Also if your post died the first time, don't make a new one.

[Buzzbugs.1236]

31 minutes ago, PrinceValentine.9320 said:

Not recommending to nerf it to the point that it becomes useless but a little shaving should be ok so other specs can shine too. Please see image links below for reference. Thoughts?

Image 1

Image 2

 

 

ArenaNet already shaved off 30% of it's healing potential in the last big profession update and killed off more than half of it's condi-cleanse ability. And you want them to shave a little more off on top of that?

Edited January 15 by Buzzbugs.1236

[PrinceValentine.9320]

tempest may be able to keep up but other defensive specs like FB, scrappers and vindi wont. the difference is massive and i dont think it's fair. 

[Sansar.1302]

15 minutes ago, PrinceValentine.9320 said:

tempest may be able to keep up but other defensive specs like FB, scrappers and vindi wont. the difference is massive and i dont think it's fair. 

FB, scrappers and vindi have other things they bring to group that is higly valuable, druid have only pure healing.

[Mell.4873]

1 hour ago, PrinceValentine.9320 said:

tempest may be able to keep up but other defensive specs like FB, scrappers and vindi wont. the difference is massive and i dont think it's fair. 

Firebrand probably being the weakest of all the healers but having the most utility

[Gotejjeken.1267]

I think in that second pic you about to get slapped

[PrinceValentine.9320]

1 hour ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

I think in that second pic you about to get slapped

Even when playing badly. Druid still overperforms. I am by no means a master with playing Druid but it’s too ez not to play when squad needs massive healing and cleanses. Other specs are forced to play something else even if they prefer playing support.

[PrinceValentine.9320]

3 hours ago, Mell.4873 said:

Firebrand probably being the weakest of all the healers but having the most utility

Nowadays, firebrand has become an alternative support. Other classes can do what a firebrand can.  It can’t be denied that Druid is dominating the support spot and a number of other specs like FB, scrapper and vindicators are left in the dust. 

[Sandzibar.5134]

what exactly was wrong with this thread:

that warranted the creation of another, almost identical thread?

hmm???

[Zyreva.1078]

13 hours ago, PrinceValentine.9320 said:

Nowadays, firebrand has become an alternative support. Other classes can do what a firebrand can.  It can’t be denied that Druid is dominating the support spot and a number of other specs like FB, scrapper and vindicators are left in the dust. 

Your own screenshots disprove your statement, since FB and tempest is still utilized more than druid in those (same for other classes in other roles). And i'm pretty sure this is not untypical for most squads, based on what i see in WvW. (In fact, in your second screen it looks like druids are still dumped into the "trash" grp while every "proper" subgrp has a FB - guess it's hard to get rid of old habits ...)

Your screens also show massive differences in numbers within a class/spec, which means a single outlier is not representative for the performance of the spec.

Once players actually stop running guards, which have been dominating the zerg meta for the game's entire lifetime with zero competition, in pretty much every single squad, you can start complaining. But at the current state of the game and when comparing the representation of ranger and guard in meta zerg comps over the years and even now - your claim appears more like a bad joke than anything else.

Edited January 15 by Zyreva.1078

[Beddo.1907]

3 hours ago, Zyreva.1078 said:

Once players actually stop running guards

As long as Firebrand has it's stab uptime, it won't move an inch from it's spot in a zerg.
Without stab, you will be pulled apart and melted in seconds and at that point there is no point in healing and cleansing. 

Druid and FB shouldn't even be compared. They have entirely different roles to fill.
 

[Soilder.3607]

Christ almighty. Let me enlighten everybody here as to what the roles of FB, Druid, Tempest, Scrapper, and Vindi (heal) are in organized WvW squads.

1. Main stability + defensive boon provider.

• This is the role Firebrand fulfills. Tempests, Druids, Scrappers, and Vindicators cannot fulfill this role because they cannot provide enough group stability. They're all capable of providing defensive boons (protection mainly + regen + vigor + etc) but they cannot give the amount of group stability that a Firebrand provides.
• Also, a Firebrand is not purely a defensive boon bot but provides massive amounts of utility. Stuff like reflects/projectile denial, CC, Sanctuary, revive utility, pulls, group STUN BREAKS. And it does all of that on top of providing almost every boon in the game (group prot, stab, quickness (huge), swiftness, multiple aegis applications, resistance, might, vigor etc etc)
• Only a Boon Chrono (Chronomancer - Inspi/Chaos Chrono - MetaBattle Guild Wars 2 Builds) is an accepted alternative to Firebrand in this aspect because they can also provide many of the defensive boons that Firebrand can (most importantly Chrono can give tons of group stab, if it couldn't do that it would not replace Firebrand).
• It is technically possible for a Vindicator to provide permanent stability with Ventari/Jalis stance + Vassals of the Empire trait but nobody does this and no group would accept it anyway.

2. Primary healer/cleanser

• Druid, Tempest, Scrapper and Heal Vindi all compete for this spot. The main role of these professions is to heal teammates and cleanse their conditions. That is their primary purpose. If any of these professions couldn't do that they would not exist in this role. Their secondary function is to provide other forms of defensive support, like boons and projectile blocks and super speed etc etc. Each of these professions can provide stuff secondary to their healing and cleansing functions. I'm not going to list what each of these professions can do because that would be a long list. In general all 4 professions are pretty capable right now and you can't go wrong with any of them provided you can play them well, though you'll definitely want at least a couple Druids/Vindis per squad because they pump the most healing. Scrapper is also getting rebuffed again for the fifth time next patch ever since they got the big nerf so they'll be even more viable than before.
• It is technically possible to build a Firebrand towards a heal/cleanse role by trading off most of their stability for healing/cleansing skills but nobody does this and no squad would accept it anyway.

 

Now, is Druid OP relative to the other three healer/cleanser professions? It kind of is because it can pump non-sensical amounts of healing/cleansing with outstanding boon support, but 90% of Druid players aren't good enough to play it anywhere near an OP level. So it doesn't really matter if the Druid kit is overloaded because most Druids aren't good enough to take advantage of it. That's my take. 

Also a screenshot of ARCDPS means nothing those players you out cleansed could've died at the beginning of the fight for all we know.

 

Edited January 15 by Soilder.3607

[Soilder.3607]

Also saying Druid provides only pure healing is the most non-sensical, based take I've ever heard in my entire life in regard to anything ever. Druid provides group prot, regen, vigor, swiftness, might, fury, stability, ALAC (PERMANENT ALAC), resistance, water fields, projectile denial, group stun break, group revive, ranged immob, crowd control, super speed, stealth. It's a loaded spec right now. And yes it can provide all of that in one build.

Edited January 15 by Soilder.3607

[Twilightzone.7452]

3 minutes ago, Soilder.3607 said:

Also saying Druid provides only pure healing is the most non-sensical, based take I've ever heard in my entire life in regard to anything ever. Druid provides group prot, regen, vigor, swiftness, might, fury, stability, ALAC (PERMANENT ALAC), resistance, water fields, projectile denial, group stun break, group revive, ranged immob, crowd control, super speed, stealth. It's a loaded spec right now.

Does not give us quick, throw it out

 

Edited January 15 by Twilightzone.7452

[Bastrii.3047]

On 1/14/2024 at 6:45 PM, PrinceValentine.9320 said:

Not recommending to nerf it to the point that it becomes useless but a little shaving should be ok so other specs can shine too. Please see image links below for reference. Thoughts?

Image 1

Image 2

 

 

FB and Ele both have amazing fallback options if they're being pressured. FB can switch tomes on the fly and pop a lot of defensives to stay afloat. Ele w/ Earth is notorious for being hard to kill. Druid... doesn't have these same kind of fallbacks.

Sure, they produce a lot of healing, but they don't produce a lot of *mitigation*. In fact, a lot of their self sustain is butchered by a flat%. If a druid is being pressured, the best they can hope for is GS block and dropping Astral for an escape. They don't churn out a ton of Aegis or Stability for a group, they don't have a defensive/sustain rotation that makes them hard to kill, and if their pet is dead - a giant chunk of their toolkit is gone.

Heal Druids do *best* when there are others in a group pumping out boons that shore up their weaknesses. Having a Guardian to pump out Aegis and Stability is great, and an Engineer to help churn out Barrier is just icing on the cake. Heal Druids are a baseline for support - they're good at providing the foundation. But you need other classes to build the walls and ramparts to keep your group alive. I'd say that Guardian is great for mitigation, while Engineer is great for absorption. With Guardian, you prevent attacks that can cleave health and reduce damage taken, while providing some healing, and can pump out Stability for your team. Engineer, on the other hand, produces a TON of barrier if they run Mechanist, which is perfect for absorbing damage - and they can do it while also popping buffs out like crazy. But Healing Druid focuses on recovering the health bar when both of these options aren't enough on their own, and people start taking crazy damage.

If you "shaved the top" on druid, you'd cripple their niche and make them less useful, not make other classes shine. If there was a way to track damage mitigated through Aegis, stuns denied by Stability, damage absorbed by Barrier, you'd see quickly that other classes provide just as much - if not more to the group than Druids do. One stability could be the difference between life and death. 300 points of healing often is not, especially with how explosive DPS is right now.

[Connla Dda.9407]

Healing Vindicator on Minstrel gear heals twice as much as Druid. According to ARC DPS. Also providing perma resistance buff preventing condition applyment. No need to clense whatsoever. Druid is used in META guild wvw composition only as a bad replacement to superior Vindicator.  I do see no need in weakening druid's performance. It is on good spot at the moment.