Future Expansion Content Should Include SPvP/WvW

[Assolador.3598]

17 minutes ago, ShadowKatt.6740 said:

Look, let's be honest, they could do a lot of things if they wanted to. They could make more pvp maps. I'm pretty sure I could make PvP maps, and I don't even know how to make a map in their engine. I'm sure if they wanted to they could have reintroduced Guild vs Guild a long time ago. They could have made new WvW maps. They could put some real effort into balancing the professions. They could fix bugs that have been in the game that have been present for years like the one I ran into last night in A Shatter Nation where if an NPC gets smushed by the shatterer then you can't proceed. They could do A LOT of things, so why don't they? The answer is simple: They don't make money, and the orders coming down from on high are simple: If it doesn't make money, it doesn't get done. The only things they keep adding to the game are to drive further sales, either of the BLTC or of their expansions, and the only time they fix anything is when it's costing them money, like the gliders that kept crashing peoples games in WvW (and even then they just took gliding away from EVERYONE!)

And don't get it twisted. You talk about how they have a steady release schedule with SotO, releasing quarterly. But I need you to shift your perspective. They're not doing this out of some kind of altruistic quest for the advancement of Guild Wars 2. They sold you an unfinished product, and you bought it. Technically they could do nothing now and you've got no recourse. This is testing the water for future releases like this and seeing just how much they can get away with with their customer base.

yeah tbh feels like there's no love for gw2 internally anymore

[Assolador.3598]

22 minutes ago, Kera.3982 said:

I do. And have been PvPing way longer than you that's for sure.

New players are gatekeeped at Tier 3-4. Not sure if you've realized but its been going on for a long time. Nobody teaches new players how to do Fractals except some Guilds but most experienced players expect gold in return.

new players should get good, not getting rewards

[Linken.6345]

41 minutes ago, Kera.3982 said:

Snip

New players are gatekeeped at Tier 3-4. Not sure if you've realized but its been going on for a long time. Nobody teaches new players how to do Fractals except some Guilds but most experienced players expect gold in return.

Why cant new players teach themselfs like old players did?

[ShadowKatt.6740]

33 minutes ago, Kera.3982 said:

I do. And have been PvPing way longer than you that's for sure.

New players are gatekeeped at Tier 3-4. Not sure if you've realized but its been going on for a long time. Nobody teaches new players how to do Fractals except some Guilds but most experienced players expect gold in return.

I'll state up front that I'm going to respond to this from a place of ignorance because I don't do a ton of Fractals. I stayed out of them for a long time because I have poor self esteem and just assumed I wasn't good enough, but when I started working on leggies I didn't have a choice. So I had to put on my big girl panties, bite the bullet, and go do fractals...and you know what? They weren't that bad. T1 fractals are honestly kinda a joke. You gotta screw up real bad to fail a T1 fractal and in all my time doing T1s only two of them failed. I don't remember the names, but one of them the final boss was some kind of elemental spirit that just annihilated us over and over, and the second time was some kind of golem I think. Took place in a mistlock kinda area. But I think my group was inexperienced, we didn't know how to bounce the ball, it was bad. But that was the worst of it, and now I run T1s in my sleep. Then I unlocked T TWO! Fractals, and lemme tell you....I've never been more disappointed. It's just the same thing, a little harder. I quit fractals after that by in large.

The point to this overly verbose diatribe is that I'm not sure about this gatekeeping. I know about gatekeeping in raids, and while I find the raiding community abhorrent.....I get it. I don't agree with it, but I get it. If I was to walk into a raid RIGHT NOW, I would literally be a boat anchor on whatever group I was with. Don't know what I'm doing, don't know where I'm going. And I'm not stupid, I learn and adapt VERY fast. it's one of my better qualities, but I get why a raid group wouldn't want me. But T3 and T4 fractals....nah. By the time you get to them you've done every fractal about twenty times already. You've memorized all the dialogue, you're ignoring the NPCs, you're speedrunning this stuff. You don't really need to be trained as to how to do these fractals because you've already been doing them, so anyone gatekeeping fractals of all things, that's a them problem. And that should be addressed, just like the toxicity inside the raiding community. I don't think this is a training issue, I think this is an elitist issue.

[Linken.6345]

2 hours ago, ShadowKatt.6740 said:

Snip

so anyone gatekeeping fractals of all things, that's a them problem. And that should be addressed, just like the toxicity inside the raiding community. I don't think this is a training issue, I think this is an elitist issue.

I cant see how you can go from anyone thinking fractals are gatekeept is a them problem into raids are toxic and elitist issue.

People can learn both fractals, strikes and even raids, people dont want to learn they want a free ride + feel like they contributed.

If someone point out they did not contribute at all in their given role ( healer no giving boons/healing, dps doing close to same damage as healers, everyone can see when tank dont do their stuff so they usualy cant hide behind anything) they are called toxic elitist kittens that gatekeep content, they are wrong and need to be addressed.

I agree with your first point fractals is not hard and if you want to try out t3 or t4 without having to go through t2 you can ask for a opener it takes them seconds to open a fractal lobby and type daily t3/t4 for you.

[ArchonWing.9480]

7 hours ago, Linken.6345 said:

Why cant new players teach themselfs like old players did?

Especially since that's the whole point of the tiers. They're supposed to learn in tier 1 and 2. If they're either skipping it or not learning from them, then  of course things will go badly in t3. They should not be blaming other people.

One should not step into tier 3/4 not knowing what they're doing;  that's just looking for a carry and they need to go back to tier 2 or even 1.

Also another thing is that people can help teach the content, but it's much harder for them to teach people how to play their characters. And that is also something that people should be doing even before going to learn an encounter. So when one goes through t1/t2, they should not just be memorizing mechanics but also what their character skills do, and how to control their character. And people can learn these things outside of fractals too, like in open world.

And there aren't really many things that make you do anything t3 and above anyways. T2 fractals still give a decent amount of gold and may even be more time efficient if one doesn't want to deal with the stress.

Edited January 16 by ArchonWing.9480

[SiEO.8430]

On 1/14/2024 at 8:27 PM, ShadowKatt.6740 said:

The reason for that is simple though: $$$$. Of those three pillars, where does the cash come from. 

Wouldn't that be a lot different if the expansions introduced new things to wvw and pvp? 

Isn't the lack of new things the reason those modes are not performing as well as they potentially could?

When the game first came out, WvW was the main selling point. So naturally if you abandon that game mode and invest into the PvE side, that's where majority of cash flow will come from.

Edited January 16 by SiEO.8430

[Nightcore.5621]

PvP is a big mess this game .. no ty 

[Astralporing.1957]

12 hours ago, Assolador.3598 said:

now that anet got a steady content release schedule, im pretty sure they have a lil time to put between those a little work on a pvp map, or just rework some of the existing ones to make it playable on ranked

It's the exact opposite. The changes to release cadence were made because they didn't have enough resources for the old one, and had to lighten their schedule. If they could not find time/effort to work on something in old system, it's even less likely they will find time/effort now, after downsizing of content releases.

[Hotride.2187]

16 hours ago, Arianth Moonlight.6453 said:

sPvP is beyond dead and WvW is closely following. No need to waste resources on them.

Might as well stop instanced pve development when going that route. Cause its next on the list with low player activity, if not even between those 2.

[ShadowKatt.6740]

7 hours ago, SiEO.8430 said:

Wouldn't that be a lot different if the expansions introduced new things to wvw and pvp? 

Isn't the lack of new things the reason those modes are not performing as well as they potentially could?

When the game first came out, WvW was the main selling point. So naturally if you abandon that game mode and invest into the PvE side, that's where majority of cash flow will come from.

Eehhh....yes and no.

You ignored a lot of what else I said. PvP players care more about mechanics than anyone else in the game. They ARE the meta, the ones that are looking for even the slightest edge over everyone else, the ones constantly tweaking their build like a gear head fine tuning the lifters in their prize car. I'm not saying they don't care about the BLTC at all, just that for them it's significantly lower down, and that's not going to change. They have different priorities.

The same is true for WvW, just a little higher up. WvW has elements of both PvP and PvE in it, and so it's got both competetive and casual elements, unlike PvP which is entirely competetive. WvW has a bit more of the fashion wars going on in it in, when you're back at base or chilling in a keep somewhere and you can admire your own appearence or other peoples appearences, but once you're on the move, once you're in the zerg, it literally doesn't matter. You're lucky if you can keep track of yourself in a mob of 40-50 other people, and once combat starts forget about it. You're not even important enough to target, just spam AOEs as much as you can and nuke as large an area as possible.

So when you ask if that'd be a lot different if they introduced new things in PvP and WvW.....what are you suggesting? They already offer the fashion stuff and as I can empirically prove the people there in large don't care, not nearly as much as the PvE community. So are you going to offer them maps? Maps would be great! CHARGING them for maps after they already bought the expansion, however, would be the biggest kick to the kitten I can imagine. So no maps in the BLTC. So what else can we offer them....I really don't know. What else are you going to give them that is NOT going to alter the gameplay in some way. YOu can't offer them powerups; that will unbalance the game unfairly. So what are you going to offer them that they will both want and use?

WvW being the selling point I think is debatable, but accepting your premise I'd say that's only because of its predecessor, Guild Wars 1. And the focal point of Guild Wars 1 was....Guild Wars. Because if you play through the story in Guild Wars 1 you'll find that it's oddly devoid of any Guild Wars. It's actually devoid of any guilds, too. Guild Wars 1 was focused on Join the game, Join a guild, and then pit your guild against other peoples guilds. And for some reason they never ported that over and replaced it with WvW, which isn't what people wanted to begin with so that just swept one leg out from under them. Then GW2 completely redesigned the skill system and made WvW a lot less tactical than it could have been in comparison to the old GvG modes and I could go on and on. Point is that WvW suffered for a lot of reasons and the lack of investment was only one of them, and arguably not even the biggest one. Again though we go back to what I said above, it is a competetive mode so what are you going to offer them that they are going to A) want, B) not unbalance the game unfairly, and C) not insult them by not including with the game in the first place.

[Torbins.2367]

On 1/14/2024 at 8:32 PM, BATMAN.6794 said:

SoTo delivered practically nothing for PvP/WvW, we used to get atleast new elite specs, but now it's just a new weapon for each class, so the fact that we aren't getting a new WvW/PvP map or something significant or new within the game modes is a real let down. PvE gets new maps every quarter, there's really no reason why in the past almost 9 years we haven't gotten a new WvW map, we understand you don't want to deliver another map people might not like, but that's no excuse for not trying. We sit with only 2 map options for the borderlands, atleast finish and give us 3 map choices. I wish you'd have gone the route of new map over having betas for alliances and restructuring because atleast we'd have something by now. PvP atleast gets 2v2 and 3v3 seasons occasionally to mix things up, so it's kind of like getting a new map, but PvP should still get new maps. I'm not even asking for it to happen every xpac, just give us 1 of the 2 for the upcoming xpac and do the other the following xpac.

Btw, imagine it only takes a few days of work to create a new PvP map using PVE assets, lol.

And they don't even trying.

Anet, please 😢

 

Also agreed about WvW, but i think there is much more important things to do. Like:

-bounty system of famous player killers with good killstreaks.

-air drops which should be delivered by roamers to their bases to get some WvW win points. 

[mojopojo.5029]

Working on all modes will help player retention.  Not to just attract new players but for all players to continue to be constantly engaged and enjoy the game.

[ShadowKatt.6740]

21 minutes ago, Kera.3982 said:

My previous post was removed just because I said the truth. Another reason why I will never be buying SotO and future Expansions at full price. If you want a better PvE experience, I advise checking out Final Fantasy XIV. Square Enix allows the use of bots as teammates in Raids to avoid being gatekeeped. And the community is just much better there too.

I run a small youtube channel where I play games and you would not believe the number of people that tell me to go play FF XIV. Problem is, I don't want to pay for it. That's one of the things I like about Guild Wars that other games don't do: You buy Guild Wars, you're done. You play Final Fantasy,  you pay every month whether you play it for 160 hours, 10 hours, or zero hours, and I'm just not here for that.

Now hold on. You jerked your knee so hard I felt it from here. "You don't have to pay, there's a free tier that's almost as good as the paid tier". I know. I've been told that so many times a catholic monk once mistook it for a litany. The fact is that FF XIV is NOT the only game to do that. GW2 does that, now, but before GW2 I was playing Star Wars: The Old Republic, before it had a free tier. I actually did pay for that because come on, it's Star Wars, and I love Star Wars (or at least I did). However, I had to quit and when I came back I went free and OH BOY is free a whole new world. You can't chat, you can't have mounts, you can't trade, you can't bank, you can't even expand your inventory. Your walking/running speed is cut to 66%, your XP gains are cut by 50%, and all this really does is make the game more or less absolutely unplayable on a free account. Wanna guess how long I stayed back? Less time than it took me to uninstall it afterwards.

The point is that I've done the free thing before, and guess what? There are people out there who will actually DEFEND SWTOR's free account system, saying it's a great way to get people into the game and get them started. No, it's not. It's bad. The game is bad. The company running the game is bad. And anyone that defends the game or the company is bad. So when people tell me to just go play FF XIV for free, it's fine, gun shy doesn't even BEGIN to describe how quickly I recoil from that. So that's my first aversion to FF XIV. Then you go on to tell me that they actually ALLOW BOTS in the game. GW2 has bots. GW2 has had bots for a long time. They infest this game like lice and crabs, like roaches and bedbugs. Having bots in your game is NOT something to boast about. Now it is true that Guild Wars 1 had bots of a kind. It had henchmen and later on heroes you could add to your party but anyone that was there will tell you that was a last ditch effort on your part as henchmen were a poor substitute for even the worst players. They were one step up from just having someone be afk back at the shrine. No, bots are not a bragging point.

[ShadowKatt.6740]

2 hours ago, Torbins.2367 said:

Btw, imagine it only takes a few days of work to create a new PvP map using PVE assets, lol.

And they don't even trying.

Anet, please 😢

You realize how easy it would be to implement Guild vs Guild? If they wanted extra point for nostalgia, they could literally import the maps from the GW1 server shards that are still active. Guilds already exist, so make a party in your guild, enter the map, and start banging on. I could have it done in a week. I was gonna say a day but I just wanna give myself wiggle room for bugs. The creative part is done. No need to reinvent the wheel. Just copy or recreate the maps, make a leaderboard which is already done for PvP and WvW, and send it. It's not that they're not trying. They don't WANT to. They are actively opposed to the whole concept for reasons that escape me.

You know, it begs the question, without Guild Wars in Guild Wars, what's the point of guilds? I've never actually been in a guild, so I have no idea.

[Solvar.7953]

As noted by others, the goal of the expansion is to make money.  New PvP/WvW maps need to be available to everyone (no feasible way to only have a WvW map that players of the expansion can play).  So the problem is then, by making new PvP/WvW maps, it does not help sales of the expansion in any way, because even those that don't buy it get the new maps.

Past expansions added new elites which would result in those competitive players buying in order to use.  SotO added that to a lesser degree.

Adding new maps may help player retention (or may hurt if people don't like the map).  Anet has apparently made the decision (based on history of past few years) that investing in new maps for those game modes is not worth the return.  They certainly have better access to player metrics, money spent, etc, than any of us.

 

[Kera.3982]

3 hours ago, ShadowKatt.6740 said:

I run a small youtube channel where I play games and you would not believe the number of people that tell me to go play FF XIV. Problem is, I don't want to pay for it. That's one of the things I like about Guild Wars that other games don't do: You buy Guild Wars, you're done. You play Final Fantasy,  you pay every month whether you play it for 160 hours, 10 hours, or zero hours, and I'm just not here for that.

That depends on what you want to do. FFXIV excels in both PvE and Roleplaying. Guild Wars 2 is a lesser version but has a unique Open World for doing content. As for npc bots, they're bots to help out new and casual players with Dungeons/Raids. They're not gold/combat bots that you see in other MMOs. If a large number of people are telling you to try a game that offers a better experience, you might want to listen to them. Guild Wars 2 isn't going anywhere anytime soon but the lack of care from the developers is obvious.

[Shiyo.3578]

As someone who loves PvP:

Not a single second of dev time should ever be spent on SPvP.

Edited January 16 by Shiyo.3578

[Shiyo.3578]

6 hours ago, ShadowKatt.6740 said:

I run a small youtube channel where I play games and you would not believe the number of people that tell me to go play FF XIV. Problem is, I don't want to pay for it. That's one of the things I like about Guild Wars that other games don't do: You buy Guild Wars, you're done. You play Final Fantasy,  you pay every month whether you play it for 160 hours, 10 hours, or zero hours, and I'm just not here for that.

Now hold on. You jerked your knee so hard I felt it from here. "You don't have to pay, there's a free tier that's almost as good as the paid tier". I know. I've been told that so many times a catholic monk once mistook it for a litany. The fact is that FF XIV is NOT the only game to do that. GW2 does that, now, but before GW2 I was playing Star Wars: The Old Republic, before it had a free tier. I actually did pay for that because come on, it's Star Wars, and I love Star Wars (or at least I did). However, I had to quit and when I came back I went free and OH BOY is free a whole new world. You can't chat, you can't have mounts, you can't trade, you can't bank, you can't even expand your inventory. Your walking/running speed is cut to 66%, your XP gains are cut by 50%, and all this really does is make the game more or less absolutely unplayable on a free account. Wanna guess how long I stayed back? Less time than it took me to uninstall it afterwards.

The point is that I've done the free thing before, and guess what? There are people out there who will actually DEFEND SWTOR's free account system, saying it's a great way to get people into the game and get them started. No, it's not. It's bad. The game is bad. The company running the game is bad. And anyone that defends the game or the company is bad. So when people tell me to just go play FF XIV for free, it's fine, gun shy doesn't even BEGIN to describe how quickly I recoil from that. So that's my first aversion to FF XIV. Then you go on to tell me that they actually ALLOW BOTS in the game. GW2 has bots. GW2 has had bots for a long time. They infest this game like lice and crabs, like roaches and bedbugs. Having bots in your game is NOT something to boast about. Now it is true that Guild Wars 1 had bots of a kind. It had henchmen and later on heroes you could add to your party but anyone that was there will tell you that was a last ditch effort on your part as henchmen were a poor substitute for even the worst players. They were one step up from just having someone be afk back at the shrine. No, bots are not a bragging point.

So you're saying GW2 isn't good enough to pay for?

[ArchonWing.9480]

On 1/15/2024 at 12:38 PM, ShadowKatt.6740 said:

But T3 and T4 fractals....nah. By the time you get to them you've done every fractal about twenty times already. You've memorized all the dialogue, you're ignoring the NPCs, you're speedrunning this stuff. You don't really need to be trained as to how to do these fractals because you've already been doing them, so anyone gatekeeping fractals of all things, that's a them problem.

That is what should happen. And you are right in the sense that if people were indeed so familiar with the fractals that they memorized basically everything to the point they're speedrunning, there should be no issue.  If everyone had your approach, there should indeed be no gatekeeping and yes, it would be their problem and you should not waste your time with them.
 

But that doesn't always happen. Some people show up in t3/t4 and don't do the above because they didn't play the lower fractals enough,. either because they skipped them entirely or did not learn anything. Everyone learns at a different pace, and it is very common for people to overestimate what they can do and go up too early.

In addition, higher level fractals also have agony resist requirements; it is almost unplayable if you don't have enough, though I am not sure if that's a big issue. But sometimes we've had people join with no agony resist on t3/t4, and have to request that they fix that up. (usually they forget, but sometimes they actually don't know what's going on)

There are also mechanics that you may have seen in t1 that can't just be tanked through. On higher levels they may do fatal damage if ignored, and on CMs will be a wipe. Granted, there is very little gatekeeping in t4; it's mostly for CMs.

T3s are a weird spot, because they often contain players are permastuck there. Unfortunately, when things have a high rate of failure, they tend to blame other people. That of course, is no fault of yours, but rather with them so most advise to get out of t3 asap.

This is not to say there is no elitism. There are plenty of unpleasant people. I once read a thread making fun of t1 people for not doing enough dps to deal with a badly designed fractal, and was like what. However, I would not want to play with those people anyways, so they can gatekeep me all they want. I hesitate to call it elitism though because many are not very good and just blame other players for their mistakes. But I will say Gw2 has many less players of that type.

I believe there is no reason to do high fractals except a couple for the legendary backpiece, and for the most part everyone can enjoy farming t2 fractals anyways. Or not at all, if you don't like them.

tl;dr Sometimes you will do everything right and people will still be mad at you. That's not your problem, as long as you are sure you did as well as you could.

Note: Then again, these days I almost exclusively play with friends and guildmates for these types of content. That's generally the best way to avoid mean people-- well, mostly. 🤣

Edited January 16 by ArchonWing.9480

[Shiyo.3578]

12 hours ago, Hotride.2187 said:

Might as well stop instanced pve development when going that route. Cause its next on the list with low player activity, if not even between those 2.

They keep releasing instanced PvE content to string along people like MightyTeapot. Same reason WvW alliances are mentioned every year, but to string along  the WvW players.

[Obtena.7952]

WvW players THINK they want new maps ... but that's not what the history of the game tells us what is actually desired by these players.

I mean, they DID get new maps, twice IIRC. That wasn't exactly the success that people thought it would be. Anet is going to do that a third time because ... ?

Edited January 17 by Obtena.7952

[ShadowKatt.6740]

46 minutes ago, Shiyo.3578 said:

So you're saying GW2 isn't good enough to pay for?

I think the amount of money I've thrown into the trading company says otherwise.

But believe it or not, when Guild Wars 1 came out that was their tagline selling point: Buy the game, play for free. Forever. So why don't you ask Arenanet/NC Soft if it's not good enough to pay for.

[Ashen.2907]

26 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

WvW THINK they want new maps ... but that's not what the history of the game tells us what is actually desired by these players.

I mean, they DID get new maps, twice IIRC. That wasn't exactly the success that people thought it would be. Anet is going to do that a third time because ... ?

One of those additional WvW maps was played heavily until ANet removed rewards from the map. The other was of questionable, at best, design and received quite a bit of feedback before launch...essentially all of which was ignored.

Personally I am not a huge fan of DBL despite it being one of my favorite biomes in games, but I still play there every day. EotM has a great deal of potential if integrated better into the WvW experience.

[Obtena.7952]

19 minutes ago, Ashen.2907 said:

One of those additional WvW maps was played heavily until ANet removed rewards from the map. The other was of questionable, at best, design and received quite a bit of feedback before launch...essentially all of which was ignored.

Personally I am not a huge fan of DBL despite it being one of my favorite biomes in games, but I still play there every day. EotM has a great deal of potential if integrated better into the WvW experience.

Right, so more maps isn't actually a comprehensive answer to WvW/PvP problems. 

IMO, the whole problem with WvW and PVP is that there isn't anything in the GS that is monetized that is useful in those game modes. SO mainly PVP/WvW players have much less reason to spend in the GS than PVE players do and therefore, those game modes will never get the attention for development that PVE does. 

 

Edited January 17 by Obtena.7952