Berserker and Ele need nerfs

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

18 minutes ago, Myror.7521 said:

@Lan Deathrider.5910 this would only solve the too hard dmg burst Problem from warr but not from other classes^^ thats why i would get rit of that relic complete xd

Just make it so no single skill with a CC can insta proc the relic. You can do that by reducing the relevant condi stacks on offending skills. I'm not a fan of removing gear.

[Paradoxoglanis.1904]

On 1/16/2024 at 11:01 PM, arazoth.7290 said:

nerf people with too many complaints about l2p issues

nerf people who think every bit of criticism is a l2p issue

[arazoth.7290]

3 minutes ago, Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:

nerf people who think every bit of criticism is a l2p issue

for ele atm 100%. zerker if glass canon power build, also 100% yes. About condi zerker, it can be bothersome but isn't that OP even atm

[Sahne.6950]

What the duck is going on.

 

[Shagie.7612]

it's illegal to suggest warrior is anything but the worst class in the game

[BonggangKikay.9576]

23 hours ago, asket.5674 said:

Just because a bronze moose gets stomped by silver ele, ele needs a nerf? Eles are rare these days in higher elos, even supp tempests are getting less. 

rare in what way? lol

get to the high elo first before you can say that they are pretty rare.

Edited January 18 by BonggangKikay.9576

[DanAlcedo.3281]

1 hour ago, Shagie.7612 said:

it's illegal to suggest warrior is anything but the worst class in the game

If we just look at how the class gets treated by the balance team. 

It's either Warrior or ele. 

[Shagie.7612]

Just now, DanAlcedo.3281 said:

If we just look at how the class gets treated by the balance team. 

It's been meta, in some form or another, since they put Resilient Roll in. 
Utterly dominant in some of those builds, too. Like, completely faceroll and overpowered and left that way for months and months.

It's not even been bad in PvE during most of that time either, nor the part of WvW they actually care about (large scale) thanks to Scorched Earth hitting a gajillion targets.

I genuinely don't understand what more warrior players want at this point.

[DanAlcedo.3281]

8 minutes ago, Shagie.7612 said:

It's been meta, in some form or another, since they put Resilient Roll in. 
Utterly dominant in some of those builds, too. Like, completely faceroll and overpowered and left that way for months and months.

It's not even been bad in PvE during most of that time either, nor the part of WvW they actually care about (large scale) thanks to Scorched Earth hitting a gajillion targets.

I genuinely don't understand what more warrior players want at this point.

Warrior has been only good for its role as banner slave in pve for most of its life. Useless outside of it and complete kitten in Openworld. 

Then we got the banner rework and it took ages for warrior to become a viable option again. The idea of playing warrior in Openworld as a viable option is only a recent change. 

In Wvw, Warrior was useful before the specialization rework. Totally useless after. 

Until Spellbreaker. Which was only usefull because of bubble. Then it got nerfed into the ground too. Took massiv meta shifts to have Warrior a viable option again for a hot second with berserker. 

PvP. 

Is Warrior a viable option? Yes? 

MASSIV QQ in the forum. Nerfed 5 seconds after into the ground. 

 

Warrior is the only class that was ever 100% dead in all Game modes at the same time. 

Shortly before EoD. 

Banner Rework killed the class in pve. 

Bubble nerf killed it in Wvw 

Was nerfed into the ground in pvp at the time. 

 

Saying Warrior had a good history is insanity. 

[Myror.7521]

@Shagie.7612 nah in its current state its not even close complete overpowered and facerole. Tho some weeks ago it was and i do not denie that at all. But also even then it was just hard carried by its self sustain (BSW by its healing/Aegis Spam and Condi Zerker by relic of akeem and dead or alife). Both Builds where just "unkillable" and become Meta cause of this. Trueth is also most of the Warriors i know did not even like this Meta builds at all cause ...... you basicly felt like a PvE Benchmark golem that could also deal abit of dmg. 

 

All in all warr is not too Bad. Surely its PvE condi Berserker Variant need some "Buffs" (in terms of been able to reach its max dmg faster) and Finaly need its staff for a real supportish build. But this is basicly all. 

What also some Warriors want is other variants than the Standart Defence/Discipline Warrior witch is Meta cause of resilend role cause blinds are still hard counter warr when not played with this exactly traitline ^^

[Shagie.7612]

3 minutes ago, DanAlcedo.3281 said:

Saying Warrior had a good history is insanity. 

boy gosh good thing i specified since resilient roll and not y'know, the end of PoF when it was actually really bad.
That's a year and a half of being extremely strong, if not meta defining and overpowered. Oct 4, 2022.

1 minute ago, Myror.7521 said:

nah in its current state its not even close complete overpowered and facerole.

boy gosh good thing i explicitly did not specify a time, i said some of those builds, like y'know, condi spellbreaker, or czerk, or bladesworn prior to the nerfs, because they absolutely were and no reasonable person would think otherwise.
And they were left that way for a long, looooong time. Heck bladesworn and czerk are still extremely prevalent.

Everyone else is extremely constrained by their trait choices too. Welcome to how pvp works. We're all forced to make those choices. You think I want to play the stuff I play instead of getting more free damage like Vindi? Nah, but I have to in order to not instantly disintegrate.

Warrior mains have a bigger victim complex than Eles and Thieves and it stems entirely from them being stuck in the past.

[asket.5674]

1 hour ago, BonggangKikay.9576 said:

rare in what way? lol

get to the high elo first before you can say that they are pretty rare.

I am there, hovering between p1/g3
Rare in a way that i see eles only every second to third game. 

Still traumatized by signet cata so that an ele every second/third game is too much for you?

[aranyics.8256]

I am an OTP D/Wh Tempest, and in the last season I ended up ~100 points higher than any previous seasons. So from my experience ele may be in the higher ends of balance, maybe? I just feel that as an ele I have some tools for any kind of situation. Ele was always a jack of all trades, not particularly better at anything than some other professions. Not sure if it makes ele OP though.

[WingSwipe.3084]

16 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Just remove 1 confusion stack from Skullgrinder.

This is the solution, thats its taken so long for this to be the fix is crazy.

They didnt need to nuke the survivability of zerker like they did when this is all that was needed.

[WingSwipe.3084]

2 hours ago, Shagie.7612 said:

It's been meta, in some form or another, since they put Resilient Roll in. 
Utterly dominant in some of those builds, too. Like, completely faceroll and overpowered and left that way for months and months.

It's not even been bad in PvE during most of that time either, nor the part of WvW they actually care about (large scale) thanks to Scorched Earth hitting a gajillion targets.

I genuinely don't understand what more warrior players want at this point.

I can list some things:
-Skills and abilities that don't wonk out half of the time you use them.
-Any kind of gameplay variety in PVP thats actually viable besides the condi zerker stack you got now, its not fun to play.
-Patches to warriors traits and abilities that dont straight up break or get implemented incorrectly due to negligence or incompetence by developers.
-Patches that dont remove the tools warrior direly needs to stay relevant.
-Patches that dont remove fun gameplay aspects of the profession 

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

3 hours ago, Shagie.7612 said:

It's been VIABLE, in some form or another, since they put Resilient Roll in. 
Utterly dominant in some of those builds, too. Like, completely faceroll and overpowered and left that way for months and months.

It's not even been bad in PvE during most of that time either, nor the part of WvW they actually care about (large scale) thanks to Scorched Earth hitting a gajillion targets.

I genuinely don't understand what more warrior players want at this point.

Fixed it for you.

[BonggangKikay.9576]

6 hours ago, asket.5674 said:

I am there, hovering between p1/g3
Rare in a way that i see eles only every second to third game. 

Still traumatized by signet cata so that an ele every second/third game is too much for you?

that is not rare lol

rare is something you barely even see at all. like core thiefs or something

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

8 hours ago, Shagie.7612 said:

boy gosh good thing i explicitly did not specify a time, i said some of those builds, like y'know, condi spellbreaker, or czerk, or bladesworn prior to the nerfs, because they absolutely were and no reasonable person would think otherwise.
And they were left that way for a long, looooong time. Heck bladesworn and czerk are still extremely prevalent.

Everyone else is extremely constrained by their trait choices too. Welcome to how pvp works. We're all forced to make those choices. You think I want to play the stuff I play instead of getting more free damage like Vindi? Nah, but I have to in order to not instantly disintegrate.

Warrior mains have a bigger victim complex than Eles and Thieves and it stems entirely from them being stuck in the past.

So should we play condi zerk and bladesworn and ignore the game mechanics carrying those interactions (and the complaints that generates), because that is what the game decided we should do, or not? 

Cause if a warrior player says "fix this fair thing", and the dev goes "have this super unfair thing that will make everyone mad", and the warrior player goes "no, fix the fair thing that's still not fixed and has in fact been made worse because you introduced an unfair thing (or decided to make it worse on your own)",  that doesn't sound like an excuse to call them "stuck in the past." It's more like they got ignored entirely, don't you think?

It's kind of like you're upset the warriors on the forum aren't just looking for excuses to dominate the meta and trying to attribute behavior to it. It's not that complicated, just fix the fair thing instead of giving us "walking mirror version 10" and we stop complaining.

Quote

 

It's been meta, in some form or another, since they put Resilient Roll in. 

I genuinely don't understand what more warrior players want at this point.

instead of "the class being meta is what warriors want",

try, idunno, "QOL so throwing an axe and your opponent moving up some stairs doesnt cause the axe to jet off into space" or "not making power zerker weaker every balance patch when it is not even viable currently" or "reasonable trait interactions that probably dont refuse to activate unless you hit someone with a skill they can dodge while sleepwalking" or whatever is left in the warrior subforum by people who care, yknow. 

If condi zerk or bladesworn is the answer to our victim complex, fine, but you don't even believe that. Otherwise you wouldn't (rightly) be calling those overpowered.

Edited January 18 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Shagie.7612]

33 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

instead of "the class being meta is what warriors want",

I don't think that's what warriors want. I think they want to be overpowered monsters because that's what feels fair to them. That they deserve to win every interaction. Obv everyone's gonna deny that, but it's a subconscious bias.
I think warriors are so absolutely fried from late-PoF that even though the class has ranged anywhere from extremely strong, to meta, to overpowered for over a year now, in multiple different builds (including one of each elite, even!), all they can do is talk about how bad it is despite every bit of evidence to the contrary.

It's not some unicorn class that's the only one that has poor mechanics and forgotten traits/weapon/utilities. But every warrior sure will tell you that nah ackshually they're really bad, even as those same people get tons of wins they didn't earn, something they're constantly accusing every other class of.

33 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

"not making power zerker weaker every balance patch when it is not even viable currently"

I literally watched you throw headbutts over and over into stability stacks the other day, and you didn't immediately die or have to disengage. I'm not saying that as an insult towards your skill level or anything either, because I don't think you're a bad player.
Seems pretty decent from my perspective.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

1 hour ago, Shagie.7612 said:

I don't think that's what warriors want. I think they want to be overpowered monsters because that's what feels fair to them. That they deserve to win every interaction. Obv everyone's gonna deny that, but it's a subconscious bias.

No?

I feel like you attributing "they want to be overpowered monsters" is not supported by the warrior complaints, especially because most of the warriors that are continually on the forums have strong words vs the things you're also considering overpowered. If this were true, they'd be silent about how annoyingly steamroll bladesworn and condizerk are.

Heck, @Lan Deathrider.5910 is telling you how to balance condi zerk -on this page.-  

Personally I'm biased on my cuff towards warrior, but I don't want my wins handed to me. Otherwise I'd be playing condi zerk/bladesworn instead of trying to get basic things done for the glass warrior specs. Have I ever suggested anything that was unreasonable?

Quote

I think warriors are so absolutely fried from late-PoF that even though the class has ranged anywhere from extremely strong, to meta, to overpowered for over a year now, in multiple different builds (including one of each elite, even!), all they can do is talk about how bad it is despite every bit of evidence to the contrary.

Have you tried engaging with any of the arguments they're making, despite what you think? most of them are asking for objectively defensible things like "this skill misses if my opponent moves slightly to the right despite it being ranged" or "stop making the thing that isn't overpowered weaker for no reason". 

Quote

It's not some unicorn class that's the only one that has poor mechanics and forgotten traits/weapon/utilities. But every warrior sure will tell you that nah ackshually they're really bad, even as those same people get tons of wins they didn't earn, something they're constantly accusing every other class of.

Nobody argued that warrior was the only class that had poor mechanics and forgotten traits/weapons/utilities. The poor mechanics and forgotten traits/utilities, however, prevent a lot of less obnoxious warrior builds from being playable without getting ironed flat, and that should be addressed. If other classes need those fixed, the players of those classes should be asking to get them fixed. 

Sometimes those things actually -get- fixed. Every ranger pet just got a rework. Reversal of fortune got QoL fixes. Maybe bladetrail can not function as poorly as it did in 2012, idk. 

Quote

I literally watched you throw headbutts over and over into stability stacks the other day, and you didn't immediately die or have to disengage. I'm not saying that as an insult towards your skill level or anything either, because I don't think you're a bad player.

Landing headbutt gets me adrenaline, which gets me a 1 second immune on zerk. I don't need to always interrupt with it, sometimes having the zerk access is important. Sometimes disengaging while getting pelted by everything in the opponent's queue isnt the play.

Quote

Seems pretty decent from my perspective.

Name three other power berserkers~

Playing something with issues that need to be addressed in spite of its issues doesn't mean the issues don't need to be addressed. Still address them.  I'd rather my class loyalty not be used as an excuse for assuming warrior is in a suitable state across the board, when it's practically absent from the meta outside of the two derivatives that are so bubblewrapped it becomes a chore to kill them. 

 

 

Edited January 18 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[asket.5674]

3 hours ago, BonggangKikay.9576 said:

that is not rare lol

rare is something you barely even see at all. like core thiefs or something

its rare when you see some elite spec of any other class in every game. But you stay in your bubble silverlining. 

[Gotejjeken.1267]

8 minutes ago, asket.5674 said:

its rare when you see some elite spec of any other class in every game.

*something about DH*

*listens for true shot*

*runs...into a trap*

Edited January 18 by Gotejjeken.1267

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

3 hours ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

No?

I feel like you attributing "they want to be overpowered monsters" is not supported by the warrior complaints, especially because most of the warriors that are continually on the forums have strong words vs the things you're also considering overpowered. If this were true, they'd be silent about how annoyingly steamroll bladesworn and condizerk are.

Heck, @Lan Deathrider.5910 is telling you how to balance condi zerk -on this page.-  

Personally I'm biased on my cuff towards warrior, but I don't want my wins handed to me. Otherwise I'd be playing condi zerk/bladesworn instead of trying to get basic things done for the glass warrior specs. Have I ever suggested anything that was unreasonable?

Have you tried engaging with any of the arguments they're making, despite what you think? most of them are asking for objectively defensible things like "this skill misses if my opponent moves slightly to the right despite it being ranged" or "stop making the thing that isn't overpowered weaker for no reason". 

Nobody argued that warrior was the only class that had poor mechanics and forgotten traits/weapons/utilities. The poor mechanics and forgotten traits/utilities, however, prevent a lot of less obnoxious warrior builds from being playable without getting ironed flat, and that should be addressed. If other classes need those fixed, the players of those classes should be asking to get them fixed. 

Sometimes those things actually -get- fixed. Every ranger pet just got a rework. Reversal of fortune got QoL fixes. Maybe bladetrail can not function as poorly as it did in 2012, idk. 

Landing headbutt gets me adrenaline, which gets me a 1 second immune on zerk. I don't need to always interrupt with it, sometimes having the zerk access is important. Sometimes disengaging while getting pelted by everything in the opponent's queue isnt the play.

Name three other power berserkers~

Playing something with issues that need to be addressed in spite of its issues doesn't mean the issues don't need to be addressed. Still address them.  I'd rather my class loyalty not be used as an excuse for assuming warrior is in a suitable state across the board, when it's practically absent from the meta outside of the two derivatives that are so bubblewrapped it becomes a chore to kill them. 

 

 

^This. This right here sums it all up. We don't want to be walking monsters. We want +10 year old jank fixed, old mechanics that no longer work well for the current state of the game to be polished up, and some useless weapons and traits made useful. Broken OP isn't what anyone wants.

And yeah, warrior isn't the only class in that boat. Those mains are 100% welcome to advocate for their classes. I'll cheer you on.

As to cZerk in PvP, remove 1 confusion stack from Skullgrinder. That will reign it in while not gutting it. Do the same for any other skill auto proccing Akeem on use.

[Mini Crinny.6190]

nerf us daddy

[Shagie.7612]

9 hours ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

I feel like you attributing "they want to be overpowered monsters" is not supported by the warrior complaints, especially because most of the warriors that are continually on the forums have strong words vs the things you're also considering overpowered. If this were true, they'd be silent about how annoyingly steamroll bladesworn and condizerk are.

 

It's getting incredibly long to respond to every single thing back and forth, so I'll just shorten it up to one thing, that being the incessant downplaying of everything warrior has to make it sound like the class is the worst in every area while everyone else has every single tool ever. That's like 99% of the warrior subforum and has been forever. I understood it when it was actually bad, I had a meltdown every day playing czerk prior to the rework. I still get made fun of for it lol. But not anymore. Warrior's got limitations sure, but they're not that unwieldy or unmanageable.

As far as fixing czerk goes, I think it's kinda weird to suggest that Akeem relic is the culprit and what needs to be changed when it was a terror and meta sidenoder before relics even released. Clearly it's not what causes/was causing problems with that build. And falls into, again, the constant warrior complaints of ackshually we're totally bad BUT x is overpowered, warrior has nothing good

9 hours ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

Name three other power berserkers~

yo big shot bob and the other guy who's always like "going mid if i don't instantly one shot someone gg afk next" are hilarious. there's also some guy i see semi-consistently in unranked playing gs/rifle, turnip or something. and spiritbomb too, plays it and spellbreaker pretty often.
they're not common, and no high end players pick it, but that's true of most of the bottom of the totem pole
gunflamers are the best honestly, it's such a funny build, i see more non-gunflamers on eu tho

the equivalent challenge is just naming a renegade period, i think lol

Edited January 19 by Shagie.7612