XenesisII.1540 Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 7 hours ago, Gehenna.3625 said: For me, it's clear now that WvW will forever be imbalanced and the focus of the balancing that Anet does, should be the most egregious things (for me that's boonballs) and not so much server population because there's very little you can do about that imo. There are some things but I see this restructuring as one of the limited things they can do, but it will not bring the results people might expect from it. Yup, I think they should focus on in game mechanics to help with outnumber periods of time, not exactly stat boosting, but there's other avenues they could look at, already mentioned numerous times on the forums. Boon balls certainly doesn't help with this, but anet loves snowball effects. WR will come and go, overall it'll be neater for the guilds, messier for the casuals and pugs, but still the same lopsided game play inside. But I'm sure they'll look at "scoring" as the way to "fix it". The ten year plan, fix rewards with an expensive infusion while busting down defense, fix population problems by throwing a party for the guilds and a giant middle finger to pugs, fix guild arenas to be a shiny for about a month while they stall to then fix scoring so who's on gets more points and who's not on get less points, then finally bring back tournaments so they can finally burn everyone out of the game. Maybe camelot unchained will be out by then. 😏 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawdler.8521 Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 (edited) 1 hour ago, Riba.3271 said: You make 500 man guild and just have each guild member have 2 accounts. You put 1 account in one guild with the other ones on another, and play one guild this restructuring, then the other one the next restructuring. Then if you happen to face the server your last restructuring team was supposed to be on, you suddenly have 1000 wvw player advantage. Uhm... -500 secondary accounts playing on the enemy team while the same 500 play on the main accounts is still a 500 man advantage. If teams are assigned 2500 players (2000 + 500 main account) vs 2500 players (2000 + 500 secondary account) and 500 instantly stop playing on the second team.... it's 2500 vs 2000. So not a 1000 man advantage. Either way, this type of behaviour if people bother to do it - since you can exploit this in regular WvW too there is nothing new here - should be able to be offset somewhat by taking into account average historical playhours over multiple WR shuffles. It would also be funny if Anet could flag a jojo account having no hours one shuffle and all the hours another shuffle as getting no skirmish rewards for say the first 2 weeks of the next shuffle after having no hours, lol. Edited January 31 by Dawdler.8521 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riba.3271 Posted January 31 Author Share Posted January 31 17 minutes ago, Dawdler.8521 said: 1 hour ago, Riba.3271 said: Uhm... -500 secondary accounts playing on the enemy team while the same 500 play on the main accounts is still a 500 man advantage. If teams are assigned 2500 players (2000 + 500 main account) vs 2500 players (2000 + 500 secondary account) and 500 instantly stop playing on the second team.... it's 2500 vs 2000. So not a 1000 man advantage. What? The 2ndary accounts have 0 hours past month. The teams are obviously matched by playing hours. Some random dude that logged last time in 2013 doesn't count for your team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawdler.8521 Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 10 minutes ago, Riba.3271 said: What? The 2ndary accounts have 0 hours past month. The teams are obviously matched by playing hours. Some random dude that logged last time in 2013 doesn't count for your team. And what does that have to do with your scenario. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RisingDawn.5796 Posted February 5 Share Posted February 5 On 1/31/2024 at 8:38 PM, Riba.3271 said: The funny part is this system is as easy to get numbers advantage as the old one. You make 500 man guild and just have each guild member have 2 accounts. You put 1 account in one guild with the other ones on another, and play one guild this restructuring, then the other one the next restructuring. Then if you happen to face the server your last restructuring team was supposed to be on, you suddenly have 1000 wvw player advantage. You can also get massive numbers advantage simply by only playing WvW every 2nd month. Honestly, I don't get how you would want to be on two different communities with different accounts, unless to leech content, but I'm used to old school WvW communities, where there were still alot of transfers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mabi black.1824 Posted February 5 Share Posted February 5 (edited) 2 hours ago, RisingDawn.5796 said: Honestly, I don't get how you would want to be on two different communities with different accounts, unless to leech content, but I'm used to old school WvW communities, where there were still alot of transfers. The old school never contemplated the transfer. You could see them stop playing, but you couldn't see them transfer. Or you'd just be a whimpering baby.😉 Now we have the next generation of players. That's why WVW needs an update. WR has proven to bring a much better balance. while it brings a nice new motivation problem. So and maybe the right solution is in the middle, a compromise is needed. A system that rebuilds all the servers 1 time a year, with transfers still allowed but under careful control, a new scoring system on which you can invent your own seasonal tournament. Edited February 5 by Mabi black.1824 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaba.5410 Posted February 5 Share Posted February 5 1 hour ago, RisingDawn.5796 said: Honestly, I don't get how you would want to be on two different communities with different accounts Because what happens over time is people in your social network go in different directions and you make choices based off that. Not everyone on a server has the same social network as everyone else on that server. Just being on the same server as someone else doesn't create strong social ties. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mabi black.1824 Posted February 5 Share Posted February 5 20 minutes ago, Chaba.5410 said: Just being on the same server as someone else doesn't create strong social ties. This is the Gospel. And this is precisely why the new WR system is in serious difficulty. in terms of participation / motivation Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaba.5410 Posted February 5 Share Posted February 5 4 minutes ago, Mabi black.1824 said: And this is precisely why the new WR system is in serious difficulty Howso though? Servers are just collections of players who benefit from not having strong ties with anyone. There is zero incentive to develop strong ties with anyone. Forum gets filled with these types of posts where someone claims to be a solo player but they like grouping up with others. Like, OK? That's not solo play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mabi black.1824 Posted February 5 Share Posted February 5 (edited) 38 minutes ago, Chaba.5410 said: Howso though? Servers are just collections of players who benefit from not having strong ties with anyone. There is zero incentive to develop strong ties with anyone. Forum gets filled with these types of posts where someone claims to be a solo player but they like grouping up with others. Like, OK? That's not solo play. mmmm. I don't know. In my opinion, this is not the case. Even when they claim to play alone because they refuse any sort of requirement you ask of them, at the same time they develop a kind of bond with everyone else around them. A kind of blood pact. And they benefit enormously from this. when the numbers grow and more hands are needed to do the job. then each one to his own home. masters of themselves? or something like that. It's another piece that collapses under your feet with WR. It is true that the people are never asked what is the best good for the people. But has anyone ever seriously considered in depth what are the pros and cons of WR? 24+27 servers of 1000 or 2000 players that we are, while here on the forum we are just over a hundred? How do you get an idea of where you're going with a change like this? It's crazy how to entertain and especially manage such a large number of players. Nice though. If your job is to care about how people can have fun, you can't help but be a happy person. ( don't pay attention to it it's just my sick imagination ) 🙃 If I had known before, I would have replied that when I grow up I want to be a developer of Anet too. 😊 Edited February 5 by Mabi black.1824 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RisingDawn.5796 Posted February 5 Share Posted February 5 1 hour ago, Chaba.5410 said: Because what happens over time is people in your social network go in different directions and you make choices based off that. Not everyone on a server has the same social network as everyone else on that server. Just being on the same server as someone else doesn't create strong social ties. I usually end up, going back to my main account , from 12 years ago on the same server. Mainly because, whilst their are different players, guilds and open tag leads, the same kind of player mindset and drama I've experienced, hasn't been drastically different. Although, the past 2 and half years, my Alt is the most played account and my guild moved. The server Linking system and player habits (bandwagons and drama), ended up burning out people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riba.3271 Posted February 6 Author Share Posted February 6 (edited) 6 hours ago, Chaba.5410 said: 6 hours ago, Mabi black.1824 said: And this is precisely why the new WR system is in serious difficulty Howso though? Servers are just collections of players who benefit from not having strong ties with anyone. There is zero incentive to develop strong ties with anyone. Forum gets filled with these types of posts where someone claims to be a solo player but they like grouping up with others. Like, OK? That's not solo play. I think its more so that if your team changes too often, any social ties don't have enough time to become strong ones. Yes, were all new and don't know anyone at some point. But eventually we learn peoples names, and who works towards same goals. It isn't like you walk to a guy at a gym and youre suddenly best buddies. Servers need to be stable. The environment needs to be stable. If timezone you share with some players changes drastically because your team has guild or server X, there is high chance you or any potential friends will change their timezone preference. You can't compare WvW server with other games where teams are matchmade, because your teams are forever. Even if they're strangers, you will get to know them a little. It is like going to school, you will typically make some friends. Whereas if its random course that lasts a couple weeks, it is unlikely. Edited February 6 by Riba.3271 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaba.5410 Posted February 6 Share Posted February 6 3 minutes ago, Riba.3271 said: I think its more so that if your team changes too often, any social ties don't have enough time to become strong ones. Which then begs the question of why avoid commitment to those strong ones already created? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riba.3271 Posted February 6 Author Share Posted February 6 (edited) 6 minutes ago, Chaba.5410 said: 12 minutes ago, Riba.3271 said: I think its more so that if your team changes too often, any social ties don't have enough time to become strong ones. Which then begs the question of why avoid commitment to those strong ones already created? Regardless of system available, you can gather 500 people and go to server you want. The main differences are that you can't choose your team or competition, and that you cannot get to know more people outside your initial group well. Another example is that lets say you have a primetime focused group, but you also prefer to play in the morning. Then obviously you would like to get to know people around you then as well. And maybe have some long lasting positive impact from your words and guidance. What you're saying is not an argument at all. What if they made WvW into empty rooms and you could choose who you go with? Yes, you can optimize your personal experience, but it wouldn't be very fun. Edited February 6 by Riba.3271 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaba.5410 Posted February 6 Share Posted February 6 (edited) 4 hours ago, Riba.3271 said: Another example is that lets say you have a primetime focused group, but you also prefer to play in the morning. Then obviously you would like to get to know people around you then as well. And maybe have some long lasting positive impact from your words and guidance. What you're saying is not an argument at all. What if they made WvW into empty rooms and you could choose who you go with? Yes, you can optimize your personal experience, but it wouldn't be very fun. Another example? It's exactly what I mean, what I had in mind, when I wrote above about how not everyone on a server has the same social network. "Because what happens over time is people in your social network go in different directions and you make choices based off that." If the morning group doesn't join with the primetime focused group in an alliance because those two different groups don't have the same social network as you, then you as a player prioritize which is more important/fun to you. It's no different from WvW right now when guilds transfer servers or when a player/commander you like transfers to another server to go play with some IRL friends of theirs. Do you stay or follow? The choice players sometimes make is to just pick up an alt account too. This is why I ask, why avoid the commitment to what's already been established? It's a personal choice what someone does with their social network. Doesn't only happen in a game. Edited February 6 by Chaba.5410 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaba.5410 Posted February 6 Share Posted February 6 26 minutes ago, Chaba.5410 said: lets say you have a primetime focused group, but you also prefer to play in the morning Realistically speaking, players know it's two different groups in two different timezones before they even make any choice about getting to know those groups. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mabi black.1824 Posted February 6 Share Posted February 6 9 hours ago, Chaba.5410 said: Realistically speaking, players know it's two different groups in two different timezones before they even make any choice about getting to know those groups. Again, I agree with what you wrote. From the point of view of restructuring, those two groups (morning and evening) will presumably be supported by the other players, because the common interest is the server. They are not your reference guild, but you join their action because you want to contribute to your server. When this is lacking, this part of the ''social network'' is also lost. At least the betas partially showed me that. because you don't know them enough. Why don't you trust it all the way. because it's not worth it. because you no longer have the server reference. So you are not interested in participating in your team's joint action. Very often I read what you write and even when you are trying to justify this choice to lose a game reference that we have had until now, the reasons that could lead us to a series of unexpected ''problems'' are highlighted. And that amplifies my concerns. The impression is that we do not fully realise how subtle and at the same time fragile these social connections are. and how much the reference to your server helped hold them together in some way. Literally something that has helped to keep a structure standing and that if it fails could collapse everything on you. And keep in mind that when I write this, I'm the first to say that WVW urgently needs some fresh air. But I'm trying to look at the restructuring from many angles, to avoid anything unpleasant that wasn't planned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkBecks.6453 Posted February 6 Share Posted February 6 While the link this round is so weak and we get decimated by 2 DE servers that have crews all night on one and all day on the other, I am just going to go watch something inspiring and worth doing. I will let the crash and burn take place quietly and out of sight and sound, peace out and have the most fun you can without achieving anything at all. 🙈 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
One more for the road.8950 Posted February 6 Share Posted February 6 28 minutes ago, MarkBecks.6453 said: While the link this round is so weak and we get decimated by 2 DE servers that have crews all night on one and all day on the other, I am just going to go watch something inspiring and worth doing. I will let the crash and burn take place quietly and out of sight and sound, peace out and have the most fun you can without achieving anything at all. 🙈 .... which MU would that be? Only MU's with host or link German servers on both opposing teams would be against Vabbi+RoS which are leading both in VP and k/d or Searfarer's Rest who doesn't have a weak link as they have none? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaba.5410 Posted February 6 Share Posted February 6 (edited) 2 hours ago, Mabi black.1824 said: So you are not interested in participating in your team's joint action. I want you to know that I understand what you are saying when you talk about motivation for playing. I don't really address it though because I don't think that's something that can be designed for. Humans have intrinsic motivation that is unique to each of them (as an aside, there's certain disorders like ADHD that affect intrinsic motivation). Everyone plays the game for different reasons. Game designers do things like add rewards to try to provide external motivation through incentives, but we know many players get motivated to log in and play for other reasons like your server community reason. We also know that players get demotivated when there's no content or too much content for them. I'm saying that it isn't something that can necessarily be designed for. I'm sure though that corporations would love to crack that mystery so that they can continue to make money off everyone by programming in the right external motivations. Edited February 6 by Chaba.5410 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkBecks.6453 Posted February 6 Share Posted February 6 1 hour ago, One more for the road.8950 said: .... which MU would that be? Only MU's with host or link German servers on both opposing teams would be against Vabbi+RoS which are leading both in VP and k/d or Searfarer's Rest who doesn't have a weak link as they have none? Rof Viznuh, and while they way ahead on only Tuesday, we have a Diamond 10k player continually tapping the keep contesting it on his thief, bet he's impressing all the lower-class players by his sheer gut's determination and bravado, what a guy 😷 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
One more for the road.8950 Posted February 6 Share Posted February 6 (edited) 11 minutes ago, MarkBecks.6453 said: Rof Viznuh, and while they way ahead on only Tuesday, we have a Diamond 10k player continually tapping the keep contesting it on his thief, bet he's impressing all the lower-class players by his sheer gut's determination and bravado, what a guy 😷 So you're not against two DE servers, you're against one. Which would be Elona Reach + Gunnar's Hold, the other opponent is Gandara + Jade Sea. Ah, just me confused during another example of how people complaining about something that might be legitimate, but not being quite right with their details when posting things in here confuses the matter. First week after relink though, things will perhaps settle as servers gets into their right tiers. Kind of a nice example of how WR might have worked better, though. Edited February 6 by One more for the road.8950 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Widebody.5071 Posted February 6 Share Posted February 6 I thought wvw was better without all this other stuff. Some foresaw how things would get fishing and out of hand back in the first 3 years of the game, without the rallybots loudly proclaiming the virues of alliances. Approximately 10 years later, it's still up for debate without a solution in sight. WE can't force nothing to work a bad idea is just a bad idea. Plain and simple. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mabi black.1824 Posted February 7 Share Posted February 7 (edited) 22 hours ago, Chaba.5410 said: I want you to know that I understand what you are saying when you talk about motivation for playing. I don't really address it though because I don't think that's something that can be designed for. Humans have intrinsic motivation that is unique to each of them (as an aside, there's certain disorders like ADHD that affect intrinsic motivation). Everyone plays the game for different reasons. Game designers do things like add rewards to try to provide external motivation through incentives, but we know many players get motivated to log in and play for other reasons like your server community reason. We also know that players get demotivated when there's no content or too much content for them. I'm saying that it isn't something that can necessarily be designed for. I'm sure though that corporations would love to crack that mystery so that they can continue to make money off everyone by programming in the right external motivations. true. But let's try to take a detached look. We're talking about a large-scale PvP game mode. What is this kind of player looking/wanting for have fun? 1 - Comparison with other players. 2 - diversity and customization, the ability to build your avatar in many different ways in reference to your playing style/skill. 3 - an environment that guarantees equal playing conditions for everyone. 4 - a points system, capable of clearly defining the skill of the player (in our case of the group of players) This should be the perimeter, the frame of the picture. Then inside there will surely be a drawing full of 1000 different shades. Precisely because we are all different, we have different tastes, ambitions, ideas. Which is why everything is much more interesting and never predictable. Now, if the development decides (finally) to improve point 3 it must be careful to respect all the others. or we will unwittingly find ourselves with a series of other unforeseen problems. I'm a true fan of WVW, and of Anet in general ( started many years ago with GW by those guys who moved away from Blizzard because they dreamed of a gaming platform without subscriptions and monthly fees, a dream that came true and a success for Anet ) and my truth is that this update and this idea is complicated. If you want to solve point 3 worthily I would work towards a major upgrade to our transfer system . And I would add a ''competition coefficient' you measure the flow of the servers (hours played) and at the end of the week you apply it to the victory points. From T1 to T5 you will be able to define the most skilled server, and on this you build your seasonal ranking. And if you want to see the participation in WVW grow, make sure that at the end of the season the teams get a ''special'' prize I would say an armor skin ( only 1 piece of armor per season and limited coloring in reference to whether your server finished first or last because everyone gets the reward ) , unique you can't find anywhere, Only by participating in X hours of gameplay of the WVW Competitive Season. As soon as the Pve people find out, you'll get the result you wanted. Edited February 7 by Mabi black.1824 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkBecks.6453 Posted February 7 Share Posted February 7 18 hours ago, One more for the road.8950 said: So you're not against two DE servers, you're against one. Which would be Elona Reach + Gunnar's Hold, the other opponent is Gandara + Jade Sea. Ah, just me confused during another example of how people complaining about something that might be legitimate, but not being quite right with their details when posting things in here confuses the matter. First week after relink though, things will perhaps settle as servers gets into their right tiers. Kind of a nice example of how WR might have worked better, though. Legitimate? Are these servers Special because they don't have an extension to determine who the majority players are? They asked to get these removed, but they were aways predominately DE Servers, we have linked with them either as Host or as Guest to know what language is spoken in chat. A monkey in a suit, is a monkey no less. So, the MU is not 2 BLANK, 1 DE 1 FR, get real, that's 3 DE and 1 FR no matter how you cut that cake. And again, it begs the question on why Anet persist with any extensions at all. That baffles the brain 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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