FAST HANDS

[mirage.8046]

On 1/26/2024 at 11:12 AM, cryorion.9532 said:

@Obtena.7952 omg your favorite topic

Fast Hands baseline... yes!

However, this change wouldn't miraculously fix the profession.

You know what warrior also needs? To overflow with adrenaline. Gaining adrenaline when hit by enemies as baseline. Even something crazy like gaining full adrenaline when entering combat. No joke. This profession needs to be unchained. It's insane how limiting warrior resource mechanic is compared to other professions. I am sick of pretending that this is ok. Who even enjoys sacrificing heal, utility or elite skills just to skip badly balanced resource mechanic?

or even a trait like dodging grants adrenaline, and extra adrenaline if you block or evade an attack, akin to virtuoso's psychic riposte. so you don't feel like you're starved for adrenaline sometimes. 

[Fueki.4753]

7 hours ago, cryorion.9532 said:

Do you think that current balance team would ever make Fast Hands baseline? Devs who laugh at Rush being  broken and doing nothing to fix it?

No, I don't. But I'm not the one wishing for it, I'm just explaining why there are people who wish for it.

7 hours ago, cryorion.9532 said:

I kinda wish to see playerbase react to FH being removed. First banner change was pretty spicy.

Perhaps the main reason FH hasn't been nerfed yet is because without it, the whole profession is significantly worse (except very very few builds that don't use Discipline) and they would have to buff quite a lot of things to offset this change.

Funnily enough, in PvE warrior would still have some meta builds untouched if Anet decided to remove Fast Hands. Berserker camping axes and spamming Decapitate for damage/perma quickness or hammer Spellbreaker (which doesn't use Discipline traitline)... rip condi Berserker though and who cares about Bladesworn (it probably doesn't even use Discipline in the first place) so everything is fin... omg Anet is already preparing to remove Fast Hands 😱

At this point, deleting Fast Hands may lead to even worse waves of anger and potentially even apathy towards the game and cause a portion of the remaining Warrior mains to leave the game for good. There's only so much strain a rope can take and for quite some of us, the rope is almost at its maximum capacity.

I don't play Junksworn much, because I like playing a Warrior and not a budget Engineer, but I don't think Fast Hands works with it.

4 hours ago, KryTiKaL.3125 said:

Ugh every time I remember this I seethe a little bit.

Most frustrating kitten thing to see the devs acknowledge a visible, known, widely complained about issue that they quite literally have every ability to fix...and they just go "haha hue hue" all after having said they want to avoid it becoming in issue on other similar skills.

What the hell? What kind of dev team does that without at least mentioning they are looking into solutions? If you know its a problem, acknowledge its a problem and follow up with stating you want to avoid it being a problem in the future...then why not fix it? HELLO?

Them doing that really gives room to interpretation what they see in our favourite profession.

9 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

SNIP

Neutering Fast hands will kill all the builds that rely on it. It will not lead to more builds to become playable.

Builds that aren't working without Fast Hands right now will not magically start working after Fast Hands gets neutered.

 

Edited January 28 by Fueki.4753

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

7 hours ago, Fueki.4753 said:

Neutering Fast hands will kill all the builds that rely on it. It will not lead to more builds to become playable.

Builds that aren't working without Fast Hands right now will not magically start working after Fast Hands gets neutered.

 

This. Though, if relic of the warrior were pushed to 50% reduction and made to not overlap with FH that would work too...

[Obtena.7952]

10 hours ago, Fueki.4753 said:

Neutering Fast hands will kill all the builds that rely on it. It will not lead to more builds to become playable.

Builds that aren't working without Fast Hands right now will not magically start working after Fast Hands gets neutered.

Yup, that's true but I'm not here to discuss how builds would get trashed or players would react to FHands getting a nerf. That goes without saying, for any nerf and 'people angry' or 'builds not work' have never stopped Anet from nerfing something before ... they aren't reasons now.

I'm simply telling you that you CAN'T ignore FHands nerf as a solution for 'fixing' whatever problems people are using to justify FHands as baseline, especially considering how Anet has behaved in the past. The reason people wish for it is irrelevant to Anet's decisions to make changes. 

SOMEHOW you think changes making people anger is a reason Anet can't nerf Fhands. That's absurd. Anet make changes that anger people ALL THE TIME. SOMEHOW you convinced yourself FHands is an exception ... it's not. 

 

Edited January 28 by Obtena.7952

[cryorion.9532]

3 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Yup, that's true but I'm not here to discuss how builds would get trashed or players would react to FHands getting a nerf. That goes without saying, for any nerf and 'people angry' or 'builds not work' have never stopped Anet from nerfing something before ... they aren't reasons now.

I'm simply telling you that you CAN'T ignore FHands nerf as a solution for 'fixing' whatever problems people are using to justify FHands as baseline, especially considering how Anet has behaved in the past. The reason people wish for it is irrelevant to Anet's decisions to make changes. 

SOMEHOW you think changes making people anger is a reason Anet can't nerf Fhands. That's absurd. Anet make changes that anger people ALL THE TIME. SOMEHOW you convinced yourself FHands is an exception ... it's not. 

 

How do you even nerf Fast Hands? Change it from 5 sec reduction to e.g. 2,5 sec? How does that make any sense at all? Based on what would be new cooldown reduction value even calculated? If it was 2,5 sec then Relic of Warrior would most likely become mandatory in builds that use Discipline... so much for variety.

Perhaps you mean removing Fast Hands completely. How is removing Fast Hands a solution to improve non-Discipline builds... it would literally bring competetive builds in line with useless builds (in most cases). How is that a solution to anything?

Fast Hands makes Warrior profession special, and it is simply so useful it should become baseline and Anet should balance warrior profession with 5 sec weapon swap cooldown in mind. Alternatively, Anet could improve non-Discipline builds by buffing other traitlines in a way that allows these builds work well in competetive environment even with 10 sec weapon swap cooldown. In both cases, there isn't really right or wrong decision. Both can result in a good and healthy gameplay if done right.

[Sobx.1758]

It shouldn't be and the explanation is still in the previous threads about it.
Although it's "fun" to see same people going through the exact same questions and answers again. No, strong trait doesn't mean it needs to be made "baseline". Yes, traits can be buffed or nerfed to perform closer to each other. Yes, nerfing FH is an option as well. Nothing about that changed from the last 5 times it was talked about here 😴

Edited January 28 by Sobx.1758

[Obtena.7952]

49 minutes ago, cryorion.9532 said:

How do you even nerf Fast Hands? Change it from 5 sec reduction to e.g. 2,5 sec? How does that make any sense at all? Based on what would be new cooldown reduction value even calculated? If it was 2,5 sec then Relic of Warrior would most likely become mandatory in builds that use Discipline... so much for variety.

I don't get this question ... I think it's pretty obvious the way Fast Hands could be nerfed. I've even gave an example in this thread of how Anet could change it.

How does it make sense? It makes just as much sense as the numerous other times  Anet has changed a trait so it's less effective. It happens all the time, and it works because making something less effective makes it a less attractive choice. I mean, people are going to CONTINUE to push the narrative that Discipline is a must-have traitline ... but SOMEHOW convince themselves nerfing its traits to make it less attractive as a choice isn't an option to address that. That's just nonsense. It's the TYIPCAL option. 

Is this the new tactic now? Pretending it's not even possible to nerf Fast Hands (even though there is an obvious way to do it), so the only solution is to make it baseline?

49 minutes ago, cryorion.9532 said:

Perhaps you mean removing Fast Hands completely. How is removing Fast Hands a solution to improve non-Discipline builds... it would literally bring competetive builds in line with useless builds (in most cases). How is that a solution to anything?

No, I don't mean removing FHands at all but now you mention it, that is ALSO a solution we have seen Anet implement to change traits if they are OP'ed. Again, don't get into some mode where you convince yourself any solution that isn't the one you want is simply not an option. That's just not a reasonable expectation for people to have. 

Edited January 28 by Obtena.7952

[GamerToad.9248]

On 1/27/2024 at 5:13 PM, Obtena.7952 said:

This doesn't make sense ... you say Anet will NEVER fix warrior issues 'enough', but SOMEHOW you think they will put in the work to fix warrior problems 'a bit' m, specifically by making  FHands baseline? That's just wishful thinking. Also you SOMEHOW concluded Fhands as baseline is the easiest and fastest way to do that? YOu simply don't know if that's true. 

Again, if the problem that is to be solved is warrior is too reliant on Discipline because FHands ... making FHands baseline is NOT the easiest or typical solution that has been used to solve that problem of 'too much reliance on traitlines' in the past. The obvious solution is the one proponents want to ignore ... a fat nerf to Fast Hands. 

How come no one wants to talk about the possibility that Fast hands could be nerfed because of the arguments people are making for it to be baseline? They don't believe it could happen? People don't believe Anet would come to this conclusion themselves? Like they have never nerfed strong traits before?

Anet never had any good take on balancing warrior so is very fair to not believe on them to do anything significant on warrior.

[GamerToad.9248]

14 hours ago, Fueki.4753 said:

Neutering Fast hands will kill all the builds that rely on it. It will not lead to more builds to become playable.

Builds that aren't working without Fast Hands right now will not magically start working after Fast Hands gets neutered.

I can't understand how they can't understand that nerfing FH will not make warrior better.

FH is staple cause without it the kittening class don't really work outside of very specific builds that is niche.

[Obtena.7952]

1 hour ago, GamerToad.9248 said:

Anet never had any good take on balancing warrior so is very fair to not believe on them to do anything significant on warrior.

OK. Let's assume that's true ... 

... yet SOMEHOW you convinced yourself they are going to do this one significant thing here by making FH baseline instead of any of the typical solutions they implement based on them 'not doing significant things on a warrior'. 🤡

That doesn't make sense. 

Edited January 28 by Obtena.7952

[cryorion.9532]

2 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

I don't get this question ... I think it's pretty obvious the way Fast Hands could be nerfed. I've even gave an example in this thread of how Anet could change it.

How does it make sense? It makes just as much sense as the numerous other times  Anet has changed a trait so it's less effective. It happens all the time, and it works because making something less effective makes it a less attractive choice. I mean, people are going to CONTINUE to push the narrative that Discipline is a must-have traitline ... but SOMEHOW convince themselves nerfing its traits to make it less attractive as a choice isn't an option to address that. That's just nonsense. It's the TYIPCAL option. 

Is this the new tactic now? Pretending it's not even possible to nerf Fast Hands (even though there is an obvious way to do it), so the only solution is to make it baseline?

No, I don't mean removing FHands at all but now you mention it, that is ALSO a solution we have seen Anet implement to change traits if they are OP'ed. Again, don't get into some mode where you convince yourself any solution that isn't the one you want is simply not an option. That's just not a reasonable expectation for people to have. 

"What I think is more likely is that FH nerfed to 7-8 seconds and MAYBE compensate by pumping up Versatile Rage and Versatile Power to juice the class mechanic ... because if Fhands IS as fundamental to warrior as the burst mechanic as you say and it's competing with Burst as the warrior-defining mechanic ... it SHOULDN'T be. "

I see. So why it shouldn't be? Warrior can only have bursts as profession defining mechanic?

[Obtena.7952]

5 hours ago, cryorion.9532 said:

"What I think is more likely is that FH nerfed to 7-8 seconds and MAYBE compensate by pumping up Versatile Rage and Versatile Power to juice the class mechanic ... because if Fhands IS as fundamental to warrior as the burst mechanic as you say and it's competing with Burst as the warrior-defining mechanic ... it SHOULDN'T be. "

I see. So why it shouldn't be? Warrior can only have bursts as profession defining mechanic?

Pretty much. Why can Warrior only have burst as a profession defining mechanic? Have to ask Anet that. It can be whatever Anet decides it should be and it looks like Anet decided that classes have one defining mechanic. That is what I'm basing my opinion on here. 

 

Edited January 29 by Obtena.7952

[Fueki.4753]

11 hours ago, GamerToad.9248 said:

I can't understand how they can't understand that nerfing FH will not make warrior better.

Some people are just arguing in circles for the sake of arguing in circles and to get threads closed down, because they've run their course or a similar reason.

9 hours ago, cryorion.9532 said:

MAYBE compensate by pumping up Versatile Rage and Versatile Power to juice the class mechanic

That's an exceedingly unlikely scenario. In fact, buffs to Warrior are so unlikely, that the mere chance to get some doesn't qualify as an argument. At this point, buffs to Warrior are no more than wishful thinking.

Edited January 29 by Fueki.4753

[RatherUnexpected.5603]

Dunno if anyone has suggested this... but why not tie the act of weapon swapping to adrenaline? Like, if your weapon swap cooldown is active but you have at least 1 bar of adrenaline... weapon swap consumes the adrenaline. Then you replace the Discipline trait with one that - as now - flat-reduces the weapon swap cooldown... but removes the ability to consume adrenaline for emergency swaps; so you'd take this trait if you wanted to maximise adrenaline retention rather than swap speed.

To prevent this from getting broken when it comes to high-adrenaline-gain builds... give it its own internal cooldown. Like, if you burn a point of adrenaline to rapid-swap before the swap cooldown is up? The adrenaline burn effect has a cooldown equal to the normal full swap cooldown duration, ticking independently. To indicate when this adrenaline-swap is ready... add little visual cue to the adrenaline bar - a glow, or a weapon icon or something, which would be greyed out when it was on cooldown.

Eh, just a thought. Just thought it'd be nice to make adrenaline a broader mechanic than just "charge up an attack".

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

10 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Pretty much. Why can Warrior only have burst as a profession defining mechanic? Have to ask Anet that. It can be whatever Anet decides it should be and it looks like Anet decided that classes have one defining mechanic. That is what I'm basing my opinion on here. 

 

While I was clearing HoT on my cVirt yesterday I took the time to look at my F1-F5. The amount of power on those 5 skills dwarfs any single warrior burst (except maybe a fully stacked Dragon Slash Force in PvE). However, each of those had CDs ranging from 12s to 50s.

But you know what?

There is no reason why warrior cannot have a F1-F5 with CDs ranging from 10s to 40s or 50s. Or any number of F skills greater than 2...

• Move Berserk and Full Counter to F5, they would replace the core F5.
• Adrenaline now has 5 bars.
  • Berserk still requires 3 bars to use
  • Spellbreaker continues to only uses 1 bar at a time, and FC still cost 10 adrenaline, spellbreaker has adrenaline capped at 3 bars.
• F1 remains the current F1 unchanged.
• Each MH and 2H weapon gets a F2 and F3 added. Each OH and 2H gets an F4 and F5 added.
  • Each has a separate CD from the others, each consumes up to 3 bars of adrenaline at a time.
  • F2-F5 would be thematic to the weapon equipped, and with their CDs have appropriate effects based on 'Power Budgets (TM)'
• Bladesworn remains in a state of FUBAR until they rework it.

[Sobx.1758]

1 hour ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

While I was clearing HoT on my cVirt yesterday I took the time to look at my F1-F5. The amount of power on those 5 skills dwarfs any single warrior burst (except maybe a fully stacked Dragon Slash Force in PvE). However, each of those had CDs ranging from 12s to 50s.

But you know what?

There is no reason why warrior cannot have a F1-F5 with CDs ranging from 10s to 40s or 50s. Or any number of F skills greater than 2...

• Move Berserk and Full Counter to F5, they would replace the core F5.
• Adrenaline now has 5 bars.
  • Berserk still requires 3 bars to use
  • Spellbreaker continues to only uses 1 bar at a time, and FC still cost 10 adrenaline, spellbreaker has adrenaline capped at 3 bars.
• F1 remains the current F1 unchanged.
• Each MH and 2H weapon gets a F2 and F3 added. Each OH and 2H gets an F4 and F5 added.
  • Each has a separate CD from the others, each consumes up to 3 bars of adrenaline at a time.
  • F2-F5 would be thematic to the weapon equipped, and with their CDs have appropriate effects based on 'Power Budgets (TM)'
• Bladesworn remains in a state of FUBAR until they rework it.

Well, for one the reason is that if you want to make warrior to be like mesmer, you can just play mesmer instead. Now if you think that "amount of Fx skills isn't the only difference between those classes" then you should take into consideration all of the other differences between them before saying "that class has it, so this one should have it too".

[Obtena.7952]

3 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

While I was clearing HoT on my cVirt yesterday I took the time to look at my F1-F5. The amount of power on those 5 skills dwarfs any single warrior burst (except maybe a fully stacked Dragon Slash Force in PvE). However, each of those had CDs ranging from 12s to 50s.

But you know what?

There is no reason why warrior cannot have a F1-F5 with CDs ranging from 10s to 40s or 50s. Or any number of F skills greater than 2...

• Move Berserk and Full Counter to F5, they would replace the core F5.
• Adrenaline now has 5 bars.
  • Berserk still requires 3 bars to use
  • Spellbreaker continues to only uses 1 bar at a time, and FC still cost 10 adrenaline, spellbreaker has adrenaline capped at 3 bars.
• F1 remains the current F1 unchanged.
• Each MH and 2H weapon gets a F2 and F3 added. Each OH and 2H gets an F4 and F5 added.
  • Each has a separate CD from the others, each consumes up to 3 bars of adrenaline at a time.
  • F2-F5 would be thematic to the weapon equipped, and with their CDs have appropriate effects based on 'Power Budgets (TM)'
• Bladesworn remains in a state of FUBAR until they rework it.

Sure, there are alternatives people can imagine for the  Warrior class mechanic ...  but you are wrong when you say there isn't a reason it's not something else.  That reason is because it's not how Anet wants Warrior to work. 

But beefing up the current Warrior class mechanic with more skills is not what the discussion here was about anyways. It was about someone implying Warrior get an ADDITIONAL class mechanic related to fast weapon swapping, obviously with the intent to justify Fast Hands being baseline. I think it's pretty obvious that classes have just one official class mechanic (and not the ones people invent as class mechanics like weapon swapping for Warrior), so it's pretty implausible to me Warrior would be an exception to that just to justify Fast hands being Baseline. Seems to me people are getting pretty desperate to win an argument here. 

 

Edited January 29 by Obtena.7952

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

1 hour ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Well, for one the reason is that if you want to make warrior to be like mesmer, you can just play mesmer instead. Now if you think that "amount of Fx skills isn't the only difference between those classes" then you should take into consideration all of the other differences between them before saying "that class has it, so this one should have it too".

I was just using that as an example. It's perfectly possible to give 1 or more abilities to the Warrior profession mechanic. Comparing those two specifically just highlights how Warrior's profession mechanic sits behind the 8 ball in relation to some other profession mechancis. 

[KryTiKaL.3125]

5 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Sure, there are alternatives people can imagine for the  Warrior class mechanic ...  but you are wrong when you say there isn't a reason it's not something else.  That reason is because it's not how Anet wants Warrior to work. 

But beefing up the current Warrior class mechanic with more skills is not what the discussion here was about anyways. It was about someone implying Warrior get an ADDITIONAL class mechanic related to fast weapon swapping, obviously with the intent to justify Fast Hands being baseline. I think it's pretty obvious that classes have just one official class mechanic (and not the ones people invent as class mechanics like weapon swapping for Warrior), so it's pretty implausible to me Warrior would be an exception to that just to justify Fast hands being Baseline. Seems to me people are getting pretty desperate to win an argument here. 

 

Again I have to posit this potentially shocking perspective to you; ANet can be wrong about that. Them being unwilling to budge on Warrior's profession mechanic can be the exact wrong approach.

I understand where you are coming from with how you view it, they want it to work that way, its their vision, they potentially won't move on that. I fully grasp why that is logical, makes sense, etc, etc. It can 100% be the entirely wrong approach to this entire situation, though. Know how that can get rectified? Community feedback telling them that its not working, and also them being willing to listen to it and talking back with us.

[cryorion.9532]

7 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Sure, there are alternatives people can imagine for the  Warrior class mechanic ...  but you are wrong when you say there isn't a reason it's not something else.  That reason is because it's not how Anet wants Warrior to work. 

But beefing up the current Warrior class mechanic with more skills is not what the discussion here was about anyways. It was about someone implying Warrior get an ADDITIONAL class mechanic related to fast weapon swapping, obviously with the intent to justify Fast Hands being baseline. I think it's pretty obvious that classes have just one official class mechanic (and not the ones people invent as class mechanics like weapon swapping for Warrior), so it's pretty implausible to me Warrior would be an exception to that just to justify Fast hands being Baseline. Seems to me people are getting pretty desperate to win an argument here. 

 

Running in circles, aren't we...

What is wrong or incorrect with making a trait baseline? What is wrong about integrating a trait into profession identity or mechanic to improve whole profession? Is it unfair to other professions? Is it unnecessary because there are other ways to improve the profession? Does Warrior profession need improvement? If it does, then why or how is Fast Hands baseline not the correct solution in your opinion? It wouldn't solve main issues with the profession and it would turn out to be "only" huge "quality of life" change?

It is obvious that making a trait baseline is pretty big exception in balancing but it was done in the past and probably will be in the future again.

You are hard set into thinking that a trait can't become baseline to achieve improvement and that is why no matter what, you will never agree, even though it is a vaild way to achieve improvement. If you think that Fast Hands wouldn't achieve improvement in areas where it is needed, feel free to elaborate.

It is tiring to discuss with you philosophy behind making a trait baseline instead of an impact and benefits of the actual change which is what matters more in the end.

[Obtena.7952]

14 hours ago, cryorion.9532 said:

Running in circles, aren't we...

What is wrong or incorrect with making a trait baseline? What is wrong about integrating a trait into profession identity or mechanic to improve whole profession? Is it unfair to other professions? Is it unnecessary because there are other ways to improve the profession? Does Warrior profession need improvement? If it does, then why or how is Fast Hands baseline not the correct solution in your opinion? It wouldn't solve main issues with the profession and it would turn out to be "only" huge "quality of life" change?

It is obvious that making a trait baseline is pretty big exception in balancing but it was done in the past and probably will be in the future again.

You are hard set into thinking that a trait can't become baseline to achieve improvement and that is why no matter what, you will never agree, even though it is a vaild way to achieve improvement. If you think that Fast Hands wouldn't achieve improvement in areas where it is needed, feel free to elaborate.

It is tiring to discuss with you philosophy behind making a trait baseline instead of an impact and benefits of the actual change which is what matters more in the end.

It's only a circle to you because you keep trying to have some irrelevant argument with me. These questions you ask me here ... I'm sure they have been answered before. 

I'm not arguing with you if making a trait baseline is incorrect. Anet's done it before. My point has NEVER been FHands can't be baseline because it's a trait.

If you are 'tired' of discussing this with me (which is obviously you talking a big load of nonsense since YOU called me out in this thread in the first place) ... then stop. 🤡

Edited January 30 by Obtena.7952

[Obtena.7952]

17 hours ago, KryTiKaL.3125 said:

Again I have to posit this potentially shocking perspective to you; ANet can be wrong about that. Them being unwilling to budge on Warrior's profession mechanic can be the exact wrong approach.

I understand where you are coming from with how you view it, they want it to work that way, its their vision, they potentially won't move on that. I fully grasp why that is logical, makes sense, etc, etc. It can 100% be the entirely wrong approach to this entire situation, though. Know how that can get rectified? Community feedback telling them that its not working, and also them being willing to listen to it and talking back with us.

Except this isn't about Anet 'budging' on Warrior mechanic because nothing about what is being asked for has ANYTHING to do with Warrior's mechanic. It's simply about players blatantly asking for power creep. Is Anet handling warrior badly? I see it, I don't think they do it justice ... but people have convinced themselves Anet will dump traits into baseline features of the class to fix that? That makes no sense. That would be exceptional behaviour for Anet to solve problems that way. 

Here is the best part: Considering the way people are selling the FHands=baseline idea justifies NERFING that trait, the whole proposal is just dumb. 

Edited January 30 by Obtena.7952

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

47 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Except this isn't about Anet 'budging' on Warrior mechanic because nothing about what is being asked for has ANYTHING to do with Warrior's mechanic. It's simply about players blatantly asking for power creep. Is Anet handling warrior badly? I see it, I don't think they do it justice ... but people have convinced themselves Anet will dump traits into baseline features of the class to fix that? That makes no sense. That would be exceptional behaviour for Anet to solve problems that way. 

Here is the best part: Considering the way people are selling the FHands=baseline idea justifies NERFING that trait, the whole proposal is just dumb. 

I guess Illusionary Persona should have been nerfed instead of making it baseline instead then... You're stuck in a contrarian circle again on this topic. You could just go dig up your prior statements from the last times FH was discussed and link them here instead and save yourself some time.

Does Anet handle Warrior properly? No, I think most objective players can say that Anet does not handle balancing well in general, but especially with this class. I think they over value the base HP and armor relative to what Warrior gets from it's skills and traits. I also think Bursts, for what they do, are not powerful enough for something that requires a resource that can be denied easily, on top of having so many traits that require mostly slow single hit attacks to hit to activate.

Removing some of the things that are bad, making some decent things a default, and expanding the class in capability are ways to address the way Anet has balanced the class. Baselining FH is in the "making some decent things a default' category.

[Obtena.7952]

3 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

I guess Illusionary Persona should have been nerfed instead of making it baseline instead then... You're stuck in a contrarian circle again on this topic. 

That's a weird take: I didn't say Anet shouldn't make FHands baseline just because it's a trait so the idea that Illusionary Persona should have been nerfed instead of making it baseline makes no sense to me. But you know what's interesting is that this is a GOOD example of what I said earlier; Anet historically makes things baseline that are related to the class mechanic. That's why people are arguing with me that Weapon Swapping SHOULD be ANOTHER warrior class mechanic. 

3 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Does Anet handle Warrior properly? No, I think most objective players can say that Anet does not handle balancing well in general, but especially with this class. I think they over value the base HP and armor relative to what Warrior gets from it's skills and traits. I also think Bursts, for what they do, are not powerful enough for something that requires a resource that can be denied easily, on top of having so many traits that require mostly slow single hit attacks to hit to activate.

Removing some of the things that are bad, making some decent things a default, and expanding the class in capability are ways to address the way Anet has balanced the class. Baselining FH is in the "making some decent things a default' category.

Yes, I'm aware of that. That goes without saying. The discussion here isn't about whether making some decent things default is a way to address warrior balancing or not. 

Again, my point here is that if people are going justify FH baseline because it makes Discipline a go-to traitline, then SHOULDN'T be arguing with me that Anet CAN'T use that same logic to nerf  FHands. So sure, keep pumping these threads and arguing with me like Anet simply CAN'T nerf FH.  

 

Edited January 30 by Obtena.7952

[cryorion.9532]

3 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

It's only a circle to you because you keep trying to have some irrelevant argument with me. These questions you ask me here ... I'm sure they have been answered before. 

I'm not arguing with you if making a trait baseline is incorrect. Anet's done it before. My point has NEVER been FHands can't be baseline because it's a trait.

I think you are twisting things here. I didn't ask if FH can't become baseline because it is a trait. I asked more specific and related questions and you conveniently reduced them into "I'm sure they have been answered before". Perhaps you should also ask more questions.

---

What are we even arguing about? That you don't want Fast Hands as baseline and I do? Or we argue that you are simply not satisfied with any argument that suggests making Fast Hands baseline? Or do we argue about whether is it ok to make a trait baseline or not?

34 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

That's a weird take ... again, I didn't say Anet shouldn't make FHands baseline just because it's a trait so the idea that Illusionary Persona should have been nerfed instead of making it baseline ... makes no sense to me. That's just some nonsense people say when they ignore the point being made to them. 

Sure ... Baselining FH is an improvement. That's never been in question. 

So what is the question?