The real problem with the raiding and fractal community.

[maddoctor.2738]

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:It's very easy. There were no raids, tryhard minority was complaining they want challenging content, boom there are raids now :)It has nothing to do with metrics as metrics before were clear - 0% of players were playing raids :)

Do you remember entire websites dedicated to dungeon/fractal speed clear records?The same with low-man/solo attempts at the same content?People reaching fractal level 99 before Heart of Thorns, you know when going above 50 was way harder than any of the new Fractals we got so far.

It's all about metrics and the metrics shown that for many many years this hardcore community of speed clears and solo attempts was staying with this game even though they got no updates. They were releasing a new expansion and added content in said expansion for that super part of the community that stayed with the game even though they were neglected for years. While other try hard casuals quit on the first sign of something they can't reach.

Remember how Raids exceeded expectations? Yes, the expectation was that tiny hardcore community would play Raids but instead they got way more interested in Raids, because this time it was properly designed content and not something that required the players to find artificial ways of making it challenging.

Everything about the addition of Raids was in metrics and not on forum whining.

[GrubySzymek.1362]

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:It's very easy. There were no raids, tryhard minority was complaining they want challenging content, boom there are raids now :)It has nothing to do with metrics as metrics before were clear - 0% of players were playing raids :)

Do you remember entire websites dedicated to dungeon/fractal speed clear records?The same with low-man/solo attempts at the same content?People reaching fractal level 99 before Heart of Thorns, you know when going above 50 was way harder than any of the new Fractals we got so far.

It's all about metrics and the metrics shown that for many many years this hardcore community of speed clears and solo attempts was staying with this game even though they got no updates. They were releasing a new expansion and added content in said expansion for that super part of the community that stayed with the game even though they were neglected for years. While other try hard casuals quit on the first sign of something they can't reach.

Remember how Raids exceeded expectations? Yes, the expectation was that tiny hardcore community would play Raids but instead they got way more interested in Raids, because this time it was properly designed content and not something that required the players to find artificial ways of making it challenging.

Everything about the addition of Raids was in metrics and not on forum whining.

There were more PvP tournaments than raid tournaments in last 2 years. Based on metrics PvP should be supported more than raids :)

[GrubySzymek.1362]

@Feanor.2358 said:

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

@"Rennie.6750" said:Believe it or not, this is exactly the experience some are looking for if you read their posts. And their wishes aren't less legitimate than yours.

Legitimate? Sure. Appropriate for the content as its designed? I hope you can see that's not the same.

We're human; we want what we want, rational or not. That doesn't mean the game would be better if it catered to our specific interests. So while all preferences might be equally valid as

preferences

, not all are equally influential in terms of influencing the direction of future changes. (And that's before considering costs.)

Fractals are intended to be the most challenging 5-person content and raids the most challenging of any content. As a result, they won't be suitable for every play style, nor every player, nor every build or team comp.You're right, not everyone's preference will be catered to. Developer always needs to choose who they're going to favour and to what degree. It's just that hardcore group preferences are usually overfavoured in most games, not because it's good for the game, but for the simplest reason that this group is always overrepresented on all kinds of communication media. Devs are more likely to cater to hardcores, because often hardcores are the only group whose voice is heard. The same is true for what the content is designed for - as we have seen, what anet thinks is "most appropriate" can change depending on what

they

believe is what community wants. If devs will notice that the voice of community they've heard so far is not the

only

voice, that may change. And as Rennie said, in the end everyone's wishes are equally legitimate. And while some may not be appropriate for the content as designed now, it doesn't mean they won't become appropriate if the devs can be encouraged to change that design.

It's not like the hardcore crowd that now denies others the right to complain didn't pull that off before with great success for them.

I sincerely doubt that forum activity is a major factor in developer decisions unless literally the entire forum is a blaze and then this will certainly be reflected in player activity.

I'd wager what does shape decisions is metrics. Metrics on player activity, metrics on how many players successfully complete content, metrics on gold/hour (wealth) gained, metrics on classes played, metrics on skills/builds used, etc.

So how metrics made developers decide to introduce mounts? :)

Forums in any form are main way to influence developers. Because metrics say what you do without any explanation why you do things this way :)

Probably the same metrics which made them introduce raids and fractals as challenging content (and asceneded gear beyond exotic gear). Very likely the result of watching marketcompetitors as well as taking a risk. Also a direct result of the previous approach not working or not working well enough.

Sure, mounts were introduced as a direct result of forum activity. That's how game developement works... oh wait.

Character slot for HoT accounts for veterans

Mounts

SAB

just few examples of direct result of forums activity :)

That's how game dev works, exactly. If it wasn't like this they would never created this place or took their time to interact with players via social media :)

This is nothing how game dev works. Take my word for it, I've been a game developer in the last 14 years

You are not a dev for this game :)

[maddoctor.2738]

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:There were more PvP tournaments than raid tournaments in last 2 years. Based on metrics PvP should be supported more than raids :)

PVP got a new game mode when Raids appeared :)Don't know what you are on about.

[GrubySzymek.1362]

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:There were more PvP tournaments than raid tournaments in last 2 years. Based on metrics PvP should be supported more than raids :)

PVP got a new game mode when Raids appeared :)Don't know what you are on about.

Metrics are irrelevant when there were no raids before 2013 HoT release period :)

[maddoctor.2738]

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:There were more PvP tournaments than raid tournaments in last 2 years. Based on metrics PvP should be supported more than raids :)

PVP got a new game mode when Raids appeared :)Don't know what you are on about.

Metrics are irrelevant when there were no raids before 2013 HoT release period :)

Metrics were all that was used to add Raids to the game. Already explained that :)

[Astralporing.1957]

@"Cyninja.2954" said:Okay let's take this slow. You do realize the forum represents maybe 1-5% of the total player base? Even if we were to add reddit to that number.

You do realize that each of those points will have seen massive player numbers and player respons in game (or on the digital sales) which will have been congruent to forum activity?

Now add 1+1 and get 2. Forums are a way to small fraction of the total player base to get anything done unless backed by numbers and data.Yes, that was precisely my point. The interpretation devs add to the metrics they see is quite often skewed by vocal majorities from sources on which only a tiny minority of the total players ever say anything (and, what is worse, a minority that's not a good representation of the community at large). Thay may see the numbers (from their famous "metrics"), but numbers alone are not enough. They need to understand the reasons behind those numbers. And often at this point they hear only a part of the story.The more voices they hear, the better informed they'll be.

@maddoctor.2738 said:Do you remember entire websites dedicated to dungeon/fractal speed clear records?The same with low-man/solo attempts at the same content?Yes. Those are not metrics. Those however are very good examples of one group of players being overrepresented in communication media. Anet could see those sites, and think "there are people interested in that", but saw no sites dedicated to casual running of the very same content, so they couldn't compare anything. They had only one side of the story.

@maddoctor.2738 said:PVP got a new game mode when Raids appeared :)And that mode was not based on metrics, which is partly why it has ended as such a flop. It was a result of GvG crowd asking Anet to implement that mode, and Anet misunderstanding what the players really wanted. If any metrics were even used for this fiasco, it's clear that didn't really work all that well.

[maddoctor.2738]

@Astralporing.1957 said:Yes. Those are not metrics.

They are metrics. The same players who run those also gave their data in-game, or you think they faked all those?The casuals could always run the old dungeons, they were really easy you know. But the only players running dungeons were those hardcore few.

And that mode was not based on metrics, which is partly why it has ended as such a flop. Nobody really asked for it.

You are wrong here :)Stronghold was based on metrics too, some really old metrics (even from GW1)Players seemed to like a PVP mode with Lords, and in dev words: they brought GW1 GVG + WVW mechanics in PVP.And nobody really liked it? During the beta of Stronghold everyone liked it. Which shows a few days of testing isn't enough.

[GrubySzymek.1362]

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:There were more PvP tournaments than raid tournaments in last 2 years. Based on metrics PvP should be supported more than raids :)

PVP got a new game mode when Raids appeared :)Don't know what you are on about.

Metrics are irrelevant when there were no raids before 2013 HoT release period :)

Metrics were all that was used to add Raids to the game. Already explained that :)

You claimed that. You provided nothing of substance though :)

[maddoctor.2738]

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:There were more PvP tournaments than raid tournaments in last 2 years. Based on metrics PvP should be supported more than raids :)

PVP got a new game mode when Raids appeared :)Don't know what you are on about.

Metrics are irrelevant when there were no raids before 2013 HoT release period :)

Metrics were all that was used to add Raids to the game. Already explained that :)

You claimed that. You provided nothing of substance though :)

I provided all the substance someone might need :)Evidence and pure data :)

[SkyShroud.2865]

@FrostDraco.8306 said:

@SkyShroud.2865 said:

@FrostDraco.8306 said:

@SkyShroud.2865 said:

@FrostDraco.8306 said:

@SkyShroud.2865 said:

@FrostDraco.8306 said:

@SkyShroud.2865 said:Complains and expressing discontent itself are forms of feedback. It might not be crystal clear but it definitely is a feedback. If one only take constructive feedbacks as the only type of feedbacks they want, then, it is truly deserved to be called narrow minded.

Some complaints and statements are empty as in, they do not even contain a point of which actual feedback can be derived. Either due to the premise of the statement being incorrect. Or the issue being brought up, not actually being an issue, but instead a symptom of something else.

This happens all the time with people, and their lack of self awareness of it shows.

For example, people that tout the word 'elitist' around without giving context for what it means, or a watered down definition of it that is completely different from the way in which the word is actually used. Therefore presenting something that is not actually an issue but a strawman that is being virtue signaled upon.

Think of it much like the recent hollywood scandals. People say the problem is men in hollywood, when the actual problem is the structure and way in which hollywood functions that allows said types of people to thrive, remain in power, and acquire power. That's irrelavent to the conversation, but a perfect example of something in which people place blame, and avoid the real issue. Both men and women were victims in these scandals.

Much like the members of this forum that come here and state there is a problem with EVERYONE BUT themselves. All while blatantly displaying a clear reason why no one would ever want to group with said person.

People need to understand,

-Not every feeling they have is important-No one cares about your feelings BUT you-Not every experience you have means something in the context of social issues-There are exceptions to just about every rule-9/10 the reason you can't find a group in this very populated game is because of something in your circumstances,+personality+play time+lack of experience

• lack of personal skill+lack of ettiquette when dealing with others+expecting everyone to be on your level (regardless of where it is) and so on

There are way more things i could put on that list. But people really need to get it in their head that no one cares about their feelings or wants. If you grow to expect that of others regarding yourself, you will have a much easier time.

Just because of

some

, you decided to shut out everything related. That is what I am getting from you. What you explained is logical but what you doing is otherwise.

'Some' is in reference to all complaints made. The ones addressed in this thread are that 'some' that i feel are vapid. And I have plenty of reason to do so given the responses of the OP's of those threads.

You are attempting to say I am disregarding them all, when i am talking about a very particular type of complaint. The ones that are especially full of subjective conjecture that can be thrown out just as it came in. Without evidence. And Even them, how am I disregarding them by criticizing their fatal flaws? It's easy to dismiss your opposition as dismissive. But you should avoid doing so when the very thing you are claiming is being dismissed, is the thing that is being criticized and responded to. It's a glaring contradiction.

Out those that you have highlighted, some did explained why but you dismiss them regardless because you consider them as not. At the end the day, what you trying to say is "i don't care, just shut up", right?

No. What I AM saying is,

"you can't expect the devs or strangers to care about your personal experiences, and that is not how you balance or implement systems for a game. Especially when that personal experience is caused because of a personal deficiency."

Making it entirely pointless to make these threads, especially to the very people they are complaining about.

But, some of these people completed it then complain about it, do they still have personal deficiency?

Yes. Otherwise what reason is there to complain? Since they 'completed it anyway'.

Remember these are the same people arguing about elitism when they say content can 'be completed anyway'.

Seems awfully hypocritical.....unless, that's not what they want.

As I have said before, complaining is a form of feedback. This is basically same as "reviewing" a raid, how hard is it to relate?

[GrubySzymek.1362]

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:There were more PvP tournaments than raid tournaments in last 2 years. Based on metrics PvP should be supported more than raids :)

PVP got a new game mode when Raids appeared :)Don't know what you are on about.

Metrics are irrelevant when there were no raids before 2013 HoT release period :)

Metrics were all that was used to add Raids to the game. Already explained that :)

You claimed that. You provided nothing of substance though :)

I provided all the substance someone might need :)Evidence and pure data :)

You presented no data or sources, just empty claims :)

[maddoctor.2738]

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:There were more PvP tournaments than raid tournaments in last 2 years. Based on metrics PvP should be supported more than raids :)

PVP got a new game mode when Raids appeared :)Don't know what you are on about.

Metrics are irrelevant when there were no raids before 2013 HoT release period :)

Metrics were all that was used to add Raids to the game. Already explained that :)

You claimed that. You provided nothing of substance though :)

I provided all the substance someone might need :)Evidence and pure data :)

You presented no data or sources, just empty claims :)

I provided both sources and data what are you on about? :)

[Feanor.2358]

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

@"Rennie.6750" said:Believe it or not, this is exactly the experience some are looking for if you read their posts. And their wishes aren't less legitimate than yours.

Legitimate? Sure. Appropriate for the content as its designed? I hope you can see that's not the same.

We're human; we want what we want, rational or not. That doesn't mean the game would be better if it catered to our specific interests. So while all preferences might be equally valid as

preferences

, not all are equally influential in terms of influencing the direction of future changes. (And that's before considering costs.)

Fractals are intended to be the most challenging 5-person content and raids the most challenging of any content. As a result, they won't be suitable for every play style, nor every player, nor every build or team comp.You're right, not everyone's preference will be catered to. Developer always needs to choose who they're going to favour and to what degree. It's just that hardcore group preferences are usually overfavoured in most games, not because it's good for the game, but for the simplest reason that this group is always overrepresented on all kinds of communication media. Devs are more likely to cater to hardcores, because often hardcores are the only group whose voice is heard. The same is true for what the content is designed for - as we have seen, what anet thinks is "most appropriate" can change depending on what

they

believe is what community wants. If devs will notice that the voice of community they've heard so far is not the

only

voice, that may change. And as Rennie said, in the end everyone's wishes are equally legitimate. And while some may not be appropriate for the content as designed now, it doesn't mean they won't become appropriate if the devs can be encouraged to change that design.

It's not like the hardcore crowd that now denies others the right to complain didn't pull that off before with great success for them.

I sincerely doubt that forum activity is a major factor in developer decisions unless literally the entire forum is a blaze and then this will certainly be reflected in player activity.

I'd wager what does shape decisions is metrics. Metrics on player activity, metrics on how many players successfully complete content, metrics on gold/hour (wealth) gained, metrics on classes played, metrics on skills/builds used, etc.

So how metrics made developers decide to introduce mounts? :)

Forums in any form are main way to influence developers. Because metrics say what you do without any explanation why you do things this way :)

Probably the same metrics which made them introduce raids and fractals as challenging content (and asceneded gear beyond exotic gear). Very likely the result of watching marketcompetitors as well as taking a risk. Also a direct result of the previous approach not working or not working well enough.

Sure, mounts were introduced as a direct result of forum activity. That's how game developement works... oh wait.

Character slot for HoT accounts for veterans

Mounts

SAB

just few examples of direct result of forums activity :)

That's how game dev works, exactly. If it wasn't like this they would never created this place or took their time to interact with players via social media :)

This is nothing how game dev works. Take my word for it, I've been a game developer in the last 14 years

You are not a dev for this game :)

You said "this is how game dev works", not "this is how game dev works for this game". Not to mention assuming game dev works differently for this particular game would be unnecessary assumption and would therefore need you to prove it. In any case, your original statement is false.

[GrubySzymek.1362]

@Feanor.2358 said:

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

@"Rennie.6750" said:Believe it or not, this is exactly the experience some are looking for if you read their posts. And their wishes aren't less legitimate than yours.

Legitimate? Sure. Appropriate for the content as its designed? I hope you can see that's not the same.

We're human; we want what we want, rational or not. That doesn't mean the game would be better if it catered to our specific interests. So while all preferences might be equally valid as

preferences

, not all are equally influential in terms of influencing the direction of future changes. (And that's before considering costs.)

Fractals are intended to be the most challenging 5-person content and raids the most challenging of any content. As a result, they won't be suitable for every play style, nor every player, nor every build or team comp.You're right, not everyone's preference will be catered to. Developer always needs to choose who they're going to favour and to what degree. It's just that hardcore group preferences are usually overfavoured in most games, not because it's good for the game, but for the simplest reason that this group is always overrepresented on all kinds of communication media. Devs are more likely to cater to hardcores, because often hardcores are the only group whose voice is heard. The same is true for what the content is designed for - as we have seen, what anet thinks is "most appropriate" can change depending on what

they

believe is what community wants. If devs will notice that the voice of community they've heard so far is not the

only

voice, that may change. And as Rennie said, in the end everyone's wishes are equally legitimate. And while some may not be appropriate for the content as designed now, it doesn't mean they won't become appropriate if the devs can be encouraged to change that design.

It's not like the hardcore crowd that now denies others the right to complain didn't pull that off before with great success for them.

I sincerely doubt that forum activity is a major factor in developer decisions unless literally the entire forum is a blaze and then this will certainly be reflected in player activity.

I'd wager what does shape decisions is metrics. Metrics on player activity, metrics on how many players successfully complete content, metrics on gold/hour (wealth) gained, metrics on classes played, metrics on skills/builds used, etc.

So how metrics made developers decide to introduce mounts? :)

Forums in any form are main way to influence developers. Because metrics say what you do without any explanation why you do things this way :)

Probably the same metrics which made them introduce raids and fractals as challenging content (and asceneded gear beyond exotic gear). Very likely the result of watching marketcompetitors as well as taking a risk. Also a direct result of the previous approach not working or not working well enough.

Sure, mounts were introduced as a direct result of forum activity. That's how game developement works... oh wait.

Character slot for HoT accounts for veterans

Mounts

SAB

just few examples of direct result of forums activity :)

That's how game dev works, exactly. If it wasn't like this they would never created this place or took their time to interact with players via social media :)

This is nothing how game dev works. Take my word for it, I've been a game developer in the last 14 years

You are not a dev for this game :)

You said "this is how game dev works", not "this is how game dev works for

this game

". Not to mention assuming game dev works differently for this particular game would be unnecessary assumption and would therefore need you to prove it. In any case, your original statement is false.

Actually you claiming being a dev is only a claim with no reason for me to believe you are in any way legitimate source of opinions :)

[Feanor.2358]

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

@"Rennie.6750" said:Believe it or not, this is exactly the experience some are looking for if you read their posts. And their wishes aren't less legitimate than yours.

Legitimate? Sure. Appropriate for the content as its designed? I hope you can see that's not the same.

We're human; we want what we want, rational or not. That doesn't mean the game would be better if it catered to our specific interests. So while all preferences might be equally valid as

preferences

, not all are equally influential in terms of influencing the direction of future changes. (And that's before considering costs.)

Fractals are intended to be the most challenging 5-person content and raids the most challenging of any content. As a result, they won't be suitable for every play style, nor every player, nor every build or team comp.You're right, not everyone's preference will be catered to. Developer always needs to choose who they're going to favour and to what degree. It's just that hardcore group preferences are usually overfavoured in most games, not because it's good for the game, but for the simplest reason that this group is always overrepresented on all kinds of communication media. Devs are more likely to cater to hardcores, because often hardcores are the only group whose voice is heard. The same is true for what the content is designed for - as we have seen, what anet thinks is "most appropriate" can change depending on what

they

believe is what community wants. If devs will notice that the voice of community they've heard so far is not the

only

voice, that may change. And as Rennie said, in the end everyone's wishes are equally legitimate. And while some may not be appropriate for the content as designed now, it doesn't mean they won't become appropriate if the devs can be encouraged to change that design.

It's not like the hardcore crowd that now denies others the right to complain didn't pull that off before with great success for them.

I sincerely doubt that forum activity is a major factor in developer decisions unless literally the entire forum is a blaze and then this will certainly be reflected in player activity.

I'd wager what does shape decisions is metrics. Metrics on player activity, metrics on how many players successfully complete content, metrics on gold/hour (wealth) gained, metrics on classes played, metrics on skills/builds used, etc.

So how metrics made developers decide to introduce mounts? :)

Forums in any form are main way to influence developers. Because metrics say what you do without any explanation why you do things this way :)

Probably the same metrics which made them introduce raids and fractals as challenging content (and asceneded gear beyond exotic gear). Very likely the result of watching marketcompetitors as well as taking a risk. Also a direct result of the previous approach not working or not working well enough.

Sure, mounts were introduced as a direct result of forum activity. That's how game developement works... oh wait.

Character slot for HoT accounts for veterans

Mounts

SAB

just few examples of direct result of forums activity :)

That's how game dev works, exactly. If it wasn't like this they would never created this place or took their time to interact with players via social media :)

This is nothing how game dev works. Take my word for it, I've been a game developer in the last 14 years

You are not a dev for this game :)

You said "this is how game dev works", not "this is how game dev works for

this game

". Not to mention assuming game dev works differently for this particular game would be unnecessary assumption and would therefore need you to prove it. In any case, your original statement is false.

Actually you claiming being a dev is only a claim with no reason for me to believe you are in any way legitimate source of opinions :)

Which would make it exactly as valid of an argument as your own claim that "this is how game dev works". You provided zero valid reasoning, and you'll not provide any because, again, this is not how game dev works.

I'd also ask you why would I lie about my job and what would it gain me. But by this point is already clear to me you're just a forum troll, so I'm not going to bother.

[GrubySzymek.1362]

@Feanor.2358 said:

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

@"Rennie.6750" said:Believe it or not, this is exactly the experience some are looking for if you read their posts. And their wishes aren't less legitimate than yours.

Legitimate? Sure. Appropriate for the content as its designed? I hope you can see that's not the same.

We're human; we want what we want, rational or not. That doesn't mean the game would be better if it catered to our specific interests. So while all preferences might be equally valid as

preferences

, not all are equally influential in terms of influencing the direction of future changes. (And that's before considering costs.)

Fractals are intended to be the most challenging 5-person content and raids the most challenging of any content. As a result, they won't be suitable for every play style, nor every player, nor every build or team comp.You're right, not everyone's preference will be catered to. Developer always needs to choose who they're going to favour and to what degree. It's just that hardcore group preferences are usually overfavoured in most games, not because it's good for the game, but for the simplest reason that this group is always overrepresented on all kinds of communication media. Devs are more likely to cater to hardcores, because often hardcores are the only group whose voice is heard. The same is true for what the content is designed for - as we have seen, what anet thinks is "most appropriate" can change depending on what

they

believe is what community wants. If devs will notice that the voice of community they've heard so far is not the

only

voice, that may change. And as Rennie said, in the end everyone's wishes are equally legitimate. And while some may not be appropriate for the content as designed now, it doesn't mean they won't become appropriate if the devs can be encouraged to change that design.

It's not like the hardcore crowd that now denies others the right to complain didn't pull that off before with great success for them.

I sincerely doubt that forum activity is a major factor in developer decisions unless literally the entire forum is a blaze and then this will certainly be reflected in player activity.

I'd wager what does shape decisions is metrics. Metrics on player activity, metrics on how many players successfully complete content, metrics on gold/hour (wealth) gained, metrics on classes played, metrics on skills/builds used, etc.

So how metrics made developers decide to introduce mounts? :)

Forums in any form are main way to influence developers. Because metrics say what you do without any explanation why you do things this way :)

Probably the same metrics which made them introduce raids and fractals as challenging content (and asceneded gear beyond exotic gear). Very likely the result of watching marketcompetitors as well as taking a risk. Also a direct result of the previous approach not working or not working well enough.

Sure, mounts were introduced as a direct result of forum activity. That's how game developement works... oh wait.

Character slot for HoT accounts for veterans

Mounts

SAB

just few examples of direct result of forums activity :)

That's how game dev works, exactly. If it wasn't like this they would never created this place or took their time to interact with players via social media :)

This is nothing how game dev works. Take my word for it, I've been a game developer in the last 14 years

You are not a dev for this game :)

You said "this is how game dev works", not "this is how game dev works for

this game

". Not to mention assuming game dev works differently for this particular game would be unnecessary assumption and would therefore need you to prove it. In any case, your original statement is false.

Actually you claiming being a dev is only a claim with no reason for me to believe you are in any way legitimate source of opinions :)

Which would make it exactly as valid of an argument as your own claim that "this is how game dev works". You provided zero valid reasoning, and you'll not provide any because, again, this is not how game dev works.

I'd also ask you why would I lie about my job and what would it gain me. But by this point is already clear to me you're just a forum troll, so I'm not going to bother.

You gain nothing but you also lose nothing. Other possible reasons are better not to be mentioned here :)

I think we should focus on discussing how to improve experience of the game for everyone, so anet stops jumping from current flavour of the year content to another and start caring about community as a whole, adressing different player groups :)

[Feanor.2358]

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

@"Rennie.6750" said:Believe it or not, this is exactly the experience some are looking for if you read their posts. And their wishes aren't less legitimate than yours.

Legitimate? Sure. Appropriate for the content as its designed? I hope you can see that's not the same.

We're human; we want what we want, rational or not. That doesn't mean the game would be better if it catered to our specific interests. So while all preferences might be equally valid as

preferences

, not all are equally influential in terms of influencing the direction of future changes. (And that's before considering costs.)

Fractals are intended to be the most challenging 5-person content and raids the most challenging of any content. As a result, they won't be suitable for every play style, nor every player, nor every build or team comp.You're right, not everyone's preference will be catered to. Developer always needs to choose who they're going to favour and to what degree. It's just that hardcore group preferences are usually overfavoured in most games, not because it's good for the game, but for the simplest reason that this group is always overrepresented on all kinds of communication media. Devs are more likely to cater to hardcores, because often hardcores are the only group whose voice is heard. The same is true for what the content is designed for - as we have seen, what anet thinks is "most appropriate" can change depending on what

they

believe is what community wants. If devs will notice that the voice of community they've heard so far is not the

only

voice, that may change. And as Rennie said, in the end everyone's wishes are equally legitimate. And while some may not be appropriate for the content as designed now, it doesn't mean they won't become appropriate if the devs can be encouraged to change that design.

It's not like the hardcore crowd that now denies others the right to complain didn't pull that off before with great success for them.

I sincerely doubt that forum activity is a major factor in developer decisions unless literally the entire forum is a blaze and then this will certainly be reflected in player activity.

I'd wager what does shape decisions is metrics. Metrics on player activity, metrics on how many players successfully complete content, metrics on gold/hour (wealth) gained, metrics on classes played, metrics on skills/builds used, etc.

So how metrics made developers decide to introduce mounts? :)

Forums in any form are main way to influence developers. Because metrics say what you do without any explanation why you do things this way :)

Probably the same metrics which made them introduce raids and fractals as challenging content (and asceneded gear beyond exotic gear). Very likely the result of watching marketcompetitors as well as taking a risk. Also a direct result of the previous approach not working or not working well enough.

Sure, mounts were introduced as a direct result of forum activity. That's how game developement works... oh wait.

Character slot for HoT accounts for veterans

Mounts

SAB

just few examples of direct result of forums activity :)

That's how game dev works, exactly. If it wasn't like this they would never created this place or took their time to interact with players via social media :)

This is nothing how game dev works. Take my word for it, I've been a game developer in the last 14 years

You are not a dev for this game :)

You said "this is how game dev works", not "this is how game dev works for

this game

". Not to mention assuming game dev works differently for this particular game would be unnecessary assumption and would therefore need you to prove it. In any case, your original statement is false.

Actually you claiming being a dev is only a claim with no reason for me to believe you are in any way legitimate source of opinions :)

Which would make it exactly as valid of an argument as your own claim that "this is how game dev works". You provided zero valid reasoning, and you'll not provide any because, again, this is not how game dev works.

I'd also ask you why would I lie about my job and what would it gain me. But by this point is already clear to me you're just a forum troll, so I'm not going to bother.

You gain nothing but you also lose nothing. Other possible reasons are better not to be mentioned here :)

I think we should focus on discussing how to improve experience of the game for everyone, so anet stops jumping from current flavour of the year content to another and start caring about community as a whole, adressing different player groups :)

There is no universal way to improve the game experience for everyone, because players' tastes vary wildly. The most sensible and effective approach is to provide different content targeted at different tastes. Which is exactly what happens in this game.

[GrubySzymek.1362]

@Feanor.2358 said:

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

@"Rennie.6750" said:Believe it or not, this is exactly the experience some are looking for if you read their posts. And their wishes aren't less legitimate than yours.

Legitimate? Sure. Appropriate for the content as its designed? I hope you can see that's not the same.

We're human; we want what we want, rational or not. That doesn't mean the game would be better if it catered to our specific interests. So while all preferences might be equally valid as

preferences

, not all are equally influential in terms of influencing the direction of future changes. (And that's before considering costs.)

Fractals are intended to be the most challenging 5-person content and raids the most challenging of any content. As a result, they won't be suitable for every play style, nor every player, nor every build or team comp.You're right, not everyone's preference will be catered to. Developer always needs to choose who they're going to favour and to what degree. It's just that hardcore group preferences are usually overfavoured in most games, not because it's good for the game, but for the simplest reason that this group is always overrepresented on all kinds of communication media. Devs are more likely to cater to hardcores, because often hardcores are the only group whose voice is heard. The same is true for what the content is designed for - as we have seen, what anet thinks is "most appropriate" can change depending on what

they

believe is what community wants. If devs will notice that the voice of community they've heard so far is not the

only

voice, that may change. And as Rennie said, in the end everyone's wishes are equally legitimate. And while some may not be appropriate for the content as designed now, it doesn't mean they won't become appropriate if the devs can be encouraged to change that design.

It's not like the hardcore crowd that now denies others the right to complain didn't pull that off before with great success for them.

I sincerely doubt that forum activity is a major factor in developer decisions unless literally the entire forum is a blaze and then this will certainly be reflected in player activity.

I'd wager what does shape decisions is metrics. Metrics on player activity, metrics on how many players successfully complete content, metrics on gold/hour (wealth) gained, metrics on classes played, metrics on skills/builds used, etc.

So how metrics made developers decide to introduce mounts? :)

Forums in any form are main way to influence developers. Because metrics say what you do without any explanation why you do things this way :)

Probably the same metrics which made them introduce raids and fractals as challenging content (and asceneded gear beyond exotic gear). Very likely the result of watching marketcompetitors as well as taking a risk. Also a direct result of the previous approach not working or not working well enough.

Sure, mounts were introduced as a direct result of forum activity. That's how game developement works... oh wait.

Character slot for HoT accounts for veterans

Mounts

SAB

just few examples of direct result of forums activity :)

That's how game dev works, exactly. If it wasn't like this they would never created this place or took their time to interact with players via social media :)

This is nothing how game dev works. Take my word for it, I've been a game developer in the last 14 years

You are not a dev for this game :)

You said "this is how game dev works", not "this is how game dev works for

this game

". Not to mention assuming game dev works differently for this particular game would be unnecessary assumption and would therefore need you to prove it. In any case, your original statement is false.

Actually you claiming being a dev is only a claim with no reason for me to believe you are in any way legitimate source of opinions :)

Which would make it exactly as valid of an argument as your own claim that "this is how game dev works". You provided zero valid reasoning, and you'll not provide any because, again, this is not how game dev works.

I'd also ask you why would I lie about my job and what would it gain me. But by this point is already clear to me you're just a forum troll, so I'm not going to bother.

You gain nothing but you also lose nothing. Other possible reasons are better not to be mentioned here :)

I think we should focus on discussing how to improve experience of the game for everyone, so anet stops jumping from current flavour of the year content to another and start caring about community as a whole, adressing different player groups :)

There is no universal way to improve the game experience for everyone, because players' tastes vary wildly. The most sensible and effective approach is to provide different content targeted at different tastes. Which is exactly what happens in this game.

Except some parts, mechanics or style of content is bleeding into another, which is already being discussed in proper thread :)

Basically, this thread is OP complaining about other players complaining. How about he focuses on providing feedback about things he cares about and leaves people to provide their feedback? At the end of the day it's not for OP to decide who is allowed to post and who's not :)

[Feanor.2358]

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

@"Rennie.6750" said:Believe it or not, this is exactly the experience some are looking for if you read their posts. And their wishes aren't less legitimate than yours.

Legitimate? Sure. Appropriate for the content as its designed? I hope you can see that's not the same.

We're human; we want what we want, rational or not. That doesn't mean the game would be better if it catered to our specific interests. So while all preferences might be equally valid as

preferences

, not all are equally influential in terms of influencing the direction of future changes. (And that's before considering costs.)

Fractals are intended to be the most challenging 5-person content and raids the most challenging of any content. As a result, they won't be suitable for every play style, nor every player, nor every build or team comp.You're right, not everyone's preference will be catered to. Developer always needs to choose who they're going to favour and to what degree. It's just that hardcore group preferences are usually overfavoured in most games, not because it's good for the game, but for the simplest reason that this group is always overrepresented on all kinds of communication media. Devs are more likely to cater to hardcores, because often hardcores are the only group whose voice is heard. The same is true for what the content is designed for - as we have seen, what anet thinks is "most appropriate" can change depending on what

they

believe is what community wants. If devs will notice that the voice of community they've heard so far is not the

only

voice, that may change. And as Rennie said, in the end everyone's wishes are equally legitimate. And while some may not be appropriate for the content as designed now, it doesn't mean they won't become appropriate if the devs can be encouraged to change that design.

It's not like the hardcore crowd that now denies others the right to complain didn't pull that off before with great success for them.

I sincerely doubt that forum activity is a major factor in developer decisions unless literally the entire forum is a blaze and then this will certainly be reflected in player activity.

I'd wager what does shape decisions is metrics. Metrics on player activity, metrics on how many players successfully complete content, metrics on gold/hour (wealth) gained, metrics on classes played, metrics on skills/builds used, etc.

So how metrics made developers decide to introduce mounts? :)

Forums in any form are main way to influence developers. Because metrics say what you do without any explanation why you do things this way :)

Probably the same metrics which made them introduce raids and fractals as challenging content (and asceneded gear beyond exotic gear). Very likely the result of watching marketcompetitors as well as taking a risk. Also a direct result of the previous approach not working or not working well enough.

Sure, mounts were introduced as a direct result of forum activity. That's how game developement works... oh wait.

Character slot for HoT accounts for veterans

Mounts

SAB

just few examples of direct result of forums activity :)

That's how game dev works, exactly. If it wasn't like this they would never created this place or took their time to interact with players via social media :)

This is nothing how game dev works. Take my word for it, I've been a game developer in the last 14 years

You are not a dev for this game :)

You said "this is how game dev works", not "this is how game dev works for

this game

". Not to mention assuming game dev works differently for this particular game would be unnecessary assumption and would therefore need you to prove it. In any case, your original statement is false.

Actually you claiming being a dev is only a claim with no reason for me to believe you are in any way legitimate source of opinions :)

Which would make it exactly as valid of an argument as your own claim that "this is how game dev works". You provided zero valid reasoning, and you'll not provide any because, again, this is not how game dev works.

I'd also ask you why would I lie about my job and what would it gain me. But by this point is already clear to me you're just a forum troll, so I'm not going to bother.

You gain nothing but you also lose nothing. Other possible reasons are better not to be mentioned here :)

I think we should focus on discussing how to improve experience of the game for everyone, so anet stops jumping from current flavour of the year content to another and start caring about community as a whole, adressing different player groups :)

There is no universal way to improve the game experience for everyone, because players' tastes vary wildly. The most sensible and effective approach is to provide different content targeted at different tastes. Which is exactly what happens in this game.

Except some parts, mechanics or style of content is bleeding into another, which is already being discussed in proper thread :)

Basically, this thread is OP complaining about other players complaining. How about he focuses on providing feedback about things he cares about and leaves people to provide their feedback? At the end of the day it's not for OP to decide who is allowed to post and who's not :)

Well, he does exactly that if you think about it. OP seems to care about raiding and fractals and is providing feedback indirectly, by ridiculing other peoples' feedback. At the end of the day, he's taking advantage of that same freedom to post you're defending.

[Vayne.8563]

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@"Vayne.8563" said:The raids introduce the white mantle back into the game and explain the stuff with the aspect. It's part of the story arc. Even Anet said it bridges the gap. I can understand the second star trek movie without seeing the first one, but I'd still rather see the first one. As a person who focuses on story it's NOT ACCEPTABLE to me. Whether it's acceptable to a raider is 100% completely irrelevaent, since you're not missing it. You're not entitled to tell people who miss out on story that they're not missing out on something when factually they are. Whether I can follow the story or not.

What does it explain about the aspects? There is not even a mention about the aspects in the Raid.You probably missed the White Mantle journals in Bloodstone Fen that explain everything in much greater detail.Where did Anet say that the non-existent story "bridges the gap"?

it was in an interview, don't ask me to find it now, but it absolutely was said, before HoT launched, and frankly that's proved to be true. So much so that in Bloodstone Fen, there's an NPC you can talk to that reviews what happens in the raids so you can catch up....which is not the same as playing the area.

[Tyson.5160]

I just don’t see the harm of putting an easy mode in as well as adding in a repeatable challenge mode for every boss. Easy/Normal/Challenge.

[maddoctor.2738]

@Vayne.8563 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:The raids introduce the white mantle back into the game and explain the stuff with the aspect. It's part of the story arc. Even Anet said it bridges the gap. I can understand the second star trek movie without seeing the first one, but I'd still rather see the first one. As a person who focuses on story it's NOT ACCEPTABLE to me. Whether it's acceptable to a raider is 100% completely irrelevaent, since you're not missing it. You're not entitled to tell people who miss out on story that they're not missing out on something when factually they are. Whether I can follow the story or not.

What does it explain about the aspects? There is not even a mention about the aspects in the Raid.You probably missed the White Mantle journals in Bloodstone Fen that explain everything in much greater detail.Where did Anet say that the non-existent story "bridges the gap"?

it was in an interview, don't ask me to find it now, but it absolutely was said, before HoT launched, and frankly that's proved to be true. So much so that in Bloodstone Fen, there's an NPC you can talk to that reviews what happens in the raids so you can catch up....which is not the same as playing the area.

I want to see that interview

This is the dialogue of the Bloodstone Fen npc:https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Squad_Leader_Bennett

Here is his "recap":

What happened in Forsaken Thicket?

: Tell me what happened to your squad.Squad Leader Bennett: Our platoon was on recon. We found something at the north edge of Verdant Brink, so we pitched camp.Squad Leader Bennett: The plan was to scout the area at dawn, so we turned in for the night. Then everything went to Torment in a town cart.Squad Leader Bennett: There was an explosion, then screams. I grabbed my gear and ran out of the tent.Squad Leader Bennett: Saw one of my men lit up like a Wintersday bonfire. Sabetha and her lackeys torched everything, laughing as they went.Squad Leader Bennett: And then...blackness. I woke up with a splitting headache, caged like a dog. Kept my mouth shut and just watched them.Squad Leader Bennett: After a few days, I told them I was ready to talk. Said I'd cooperate in exchange for the safety of my troops.Squad Leader Bennett: Told them they could use me for hard labor or experimentation. Didn't matter. I'd made my peace with Grenth.Squad Leader Bennett: I was taken deeper inside and thrown in a pen with some others. They deprived us of food and water.Squad Leader Bennett: Let their dogs snarl at our cages. At night we heard the other prisoners begging for their lives before being cut open.Squad Leader Bennett: The sky would light up, and I would hear chanting. Over and over.Squad Leader Bennett: Sorry, Commander. It...stuck with me.

No mention about Raid content at all, only Sabetha's NAME.You are calling this a review of what happened in the Raid so you can catch up?

The only line of dialogue that changes is here:

If rescued Bennett at Salvation Pass:Squad Leader Bennett: After you rescued me, I notified the queen about Salvation Pass. Then I regrouped with my squad and chased some White Mantle here.If didn't rescue Bennett at Salvation Pass:Squad Leader Bennett: After I was rescued, I notified the queen about Salvation Pass. Then I regrouped with my squad and chased some White Mantle here.

See how there is zero mention of Lazarus? Or of what Xera was doing? That's because Bennett wasn't in the Stronghold of the Faithful and once he was saved in Salvation Pass he went to inform the Queen about White Mantle activity in the North. Stronghold of the Faithful is as if it never happened :)

[Brynioch.1873]

@Tyson.5160 said:I just don’t see the harm of putting an easy mode in as well as adding in a repeatable challenge mode for every boss. Easy/Normal/Challenge.

If the easy mode doesn't slow down raid development yes. If it slows it down no. The downside is much greater than the upside of one playthrough for people that don't care about raids for no rewards.

[Tyson.5160]

I just see it more as how Fractals plays out. You start with teir 1 and get comfortable with the encounter, for some people it’s gaining confidence, learning how things work, so when normal comes around it’s not such a steep learning curve. When they release a new fractal they have what 4 separate tiers to test and so forth. Is the easy mode super challenging, no, but it gets you more comfortable with the encounter. Unfortunately some of the raid groups, I’ve been in do one or two wipes and call it quits. Which doesn’t give you much time to learn mechanics. I think adding an easy mode would broaden the pathway of pumping more players into the content. I’m sure some people have tried raids once or twice and get turned off, however if an easy mode would come in they might actually get an opportunity to try out all the encounters and go hey these aren’t t that bad, I’ll try normal mode now because I have more confidence, I’m more comfortable with the experience, perhaps if the Raiding community grows they may add more resources to it.