Vindicator has far too much evades, blocks, defense to be doing the amount of damage, and aoe damage that it does, what's the philospophy?

[Last Crab.6054]

On 4/19/2024 at 8:41 PM, MysteryDude.1572 said:

Give me stealth and shadow step on vindi and ind ican trade you my sustain , sure 😄 

just give me damage back, and keep your cheese

[Sahne.6950]

The whole " you need to dodge my dodges, but you also need to dodge these 3 big hitters"- kind of thingy, is rather dumb.

I said it a few times.... ill say it again..... 

Designing dodges to be more than two simple dodges was a huge mistake.          This includes Mirage/daredevil/Vindi.

 

Balancing a class around the changed dodgemechanic is a nightmare, and will always lead to over/underperformances of the class, and ultimately, since weaponmastery, imbalances to the whole profession.

It essentially holds every weapon back, because they need to factor in how strong it will be WITH the enhanced dodgemechanic.  Its part of the reason, why alot of rev is pretty garbo outside of Vindi right now.   They cant make weapons good for Renegade for example, cuz they always have to factor in how strong that weapon would be together with DEATH DROP.

 

In this example, renegade is dumpstered, cuz of Vindidoge.      

#Change my mind.

Edited April 22 by Sahne.6950

[Shagie.7612]

6 minutes ago, Sahne.6950 said:

In this example, renegade is dumpstered, cuz of Vindidoge.      

#Change my mind.

It was bad for almost all of its lifetime though. Except for like 2 periods, one early on when people got cheesed by something like Mad King + Soulcleave, and just after the Feb 2020 patch. Because it got completely forgotten about during that across the board damage reduction and then they crushed it like 6 months later. They also later changed the way the damage reduction formula works after that and added the 1s ICD on Soulcleave, so a bunch of the things that enabled it to be so dumb aren't even in the game anymore.

But yes, weapon master training was a mistake. Reaper getting pistol/torch is the most obvious example.

Edited April 22 by Shagie.7612

[Sereath.1428]

2 hours ago, Sahne.6950 said:

The whole " you need to dodge my dodges, but you also need to dodge these 3 big hitters"- kind of thingy, is rather dumb.

I said it a few times.... ill say it again..... 

Designing dodges to be more than two simple dodges was a huge mistake.          This includes Mirage/daredevil/Vindi.

 

Balancing a class around the changed dodgemechanic is a nightmare, and will always lead to over/underperformances of the class, and ultimately, since weaponmastery, to the whole profession.

It essentially holds every weapon back, because they need to factor in how strong it will be WITH the enhanced dodgemechanic.  Its part of the reason, why alot of rev is pretty garbo outside of Vindi right now.   They cant make weapons good for Renegade for example, cuz they always have to factor in how strong that weapon would be together with DEATH DROP.

 

In this example, renegade is dumpstered, cuz of Vindidoge.      

#Change my mind.

(Glad that there are at least some good posts for every 50, in this place. Otherwise it's pure yapping except for Shagie, arazoth, Terrorhuz, Flowki, ArthurDent)

It is as I said in my other post about the spec.
Death Drop needs to be changed. It already comes with a +15% damage buff. That's already great.
Meanwhile the other two dodges are omega trash. All of them should have a different kind of utility.
1. Damage Buff
2. Either a leap or a miniscule energy gain for every target hit (1-2).
3. Something

Oh and remove the damage from Field of the Mists (#4).
Not a fan of Drop the Hammer (#5) refreshing #2. Instead of fixing, reverting it to the way it was years ago. We're always reinventing the wheel, aren't we?
That's it.

For good reason, Vindicator hasn't been in a single winning MAT team for a very long time.
Not even when it gained access to shortbow.
The rest of the class is unplayable without salvation or reliable condi cleanse and vindicator has an answer for that, Tree Song.
Power Herald is simply unplayable without staff. Otherwise, people would  have already tried to replace staff with either shortbow or hammer, or even GS + swords.

The only remotely good builds have been with vindicator for a while now.
And only very recently it got quite good because hammer has both offence and defence:
Phase Smash (#2) is also a dodge with damage at the end. Suddenly vindicator feels like a 150 endurance spec.
Field of the Mists (#4) feels instant, comes with a frontal projectile block and an aegis as well. It is also the highest damage skill from hammer.
Hammer is a little overtuned right now. It did not need that super buff to #4. It's simply better than shortbow right now.

However, some of the complainers here were already getting clowned by hammer before the last set of buffs.

I still play shortbow and try to make Imperial Impact work as hard as I can.
I do not want them to keep balancing the whole spec class around kittening Death Drop.

Edited April 22 by Sereath.1428

[Terrorhuz.4695]

10 hours ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

Demon queen builds could push spellbreaker

Except they can't.

SOURCE: I use it. Everything is useless except Power Block, and even then there are ways around it.

10 hours ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

as long as you didn't get hit by FC or a burst (both of which weren't issues resolved by staff)

Except they are.

Path to Victory (best skill name ever tbh) is very fast, with a very subtle animation, 360 range and sometimes it's unblockable too. The burst WILL hit, and from there you proc a gazillion traits to enable the rest of a spellbreaker's kit (including FC).

10 hours ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

and that hammer vindi can be built as a bunker

I'd like to see you try.

By default, spellbreakers survive condi bombs.
By default, revenants DO NOT survive condi bombs.

The only way to survive a condi bomb as a revenant is to go full bunker.

Congratulations, you now can cleanse as a spellbreaker. You also have a a third of their damage, a third of their movement speed (we're forgetting staff spellbreaker is one of the fastest classes in the meta), a third of their stability and 0% of their CC.

Edited April 22 by Terrorhuz.4695

[Myror.7521]

@Sereath.1428 i gonna yap at you and saying. The problem is not Hammer or Vindicator. The Problem is both things in Combination making you someone going for nearly invinite dodging while doing insane dmg at the same time ^^. This been said warr with staff Dagger Shield is also something else with a 3 Seconds Block all 30 Seconds while doing also some good dmg (plus full counters 8 Seconds) but at least the warr one got no Ports xD

Edited April 22 by Myror.7521

[arazoth.7290]

2 hours ago, Myror.7521 said:

@Sereath.1428 i gonna yap at you and saying. The problem is not Hammer or Vindicator. The Problem is both things in Combination making you someone going for nearly invinite dodging while doing insane dmg at the same time ^^. This been said warr with staff Dagger Shield is also something else with a 3 Seconds Block all 30 Seconds while doing also some good dmg (plus full counters 8 Seconds) but at least the warr one got no Ports xD

no, but you have more cc, lets take a nerf on that warrior can close to perma cc and if build well perma cc's so annoying too which needs atleastttttt 50% shaved off too.

 Increase cd on full counter too, such a stronggggg defensive that can negate all while doing cc, applies a tether which increases damage gives might is unblockable gives revealed. For the condi part revenge counterd s bloated too.

All get of your high horses because many things from your own classes are bloated/toxic/ easy to unbalance for making it OP.

While we're at it lets nerf EVERY bloated trait, ability on ANY CLASS. I just want to see tears now from everyone because you all keep making whine threads instead of building against something because too lazy

Some week ago I go whining against me when I killed someone 1v1 with full glass renegade even... says enough about how many think. And it wasn't some lowbie who was new, he was plat...

Suit yourself all whining on forums what you can't kill fast enough 1v1... . I whine only in public which is something temporarily, not here, because I know 90% is my fault if I do something wrong or not playing around it enough and so on.  So this is 1 of the rare I do it here 😉

Now hope you all get nerfed on toxic overbloated stuff aswell, just to see more crying/chaos 😂

 

[Myror.7521]

@arazoth.7290 nah im by no means toxic. Every time i see a vindicator im sweaping to Meta spell build and If he got another class on his Team lets say willbender im going for the so said Staff/Dagger,Shield build and clap them both xD

While "clap" is not as easy as it seems to be tho x)

Edited April 22 by Myror.7521

[Deadmoose.6594]

On 4/20/2024 at 9:30 PM, arazoth.7290 said:

If they pre cast it sorta does.

And revenant only dodge that does damage while dodging is sword skill 3 and staff 5 used to be in pvo too.

The other like hammer 3, vindi evades only hit at the end when they're vulnerable

So no we don't do mostly damage in dodges aside s3 that really counts.

It’s a completely different, one is attacking while the other is trying not to die. Which would you rather play as?

[arazoth.7290]

1 hour ago, Deadmoose.6594 said:

It’s a completely different, one is attacking while the other is trying not to die. Which would you rather play as?

You're going to tell me that engineer, mesmer, warrior, necromancer, ranger, guardian, elementalist, thief all can't be on offensive while having some defensive active?

All of them have some spec or build atleast that have something alike this. The only difference is in how they do it

[arazoth.7290]

2 hours ago, Myror.7521 said:

@arazoth.7290 nah im by no means toxic. Every time i see a vindicator im sweaping to Meta spell build and If he got another class on his Team lets say willbender im going for the so said Staff/Dagger,Shield build and clap them both xD

While "clap" is not as easy as it seems to be tho x)

I didn't meant you're toxic

[Sahne.6950]

20 hours ago, arazoth.7290 said:

All of them have some spec or build atleast that have something alike this. The only difference is in how they do it

Generally speaking.... i kinda want to dodge Deathdrop ... because that thing alone is deleting 30% of my healthbar.

I LITERALLY need to blow all my dodges.... JUST for the vindi´s dodges.    Which forces me to mitigate actual weaponskills with active abilitys.

This sets me on a timer.

I can block 1, maybe 2 rotations with my skills.   But the hardhitter weaponskills have WAY WAYYYY less cooldown, than my defensive skills.

Eventually there will be a window, where my defensive skills are not up yet, i also have no dodge left....... and a single GS5, into Deathdrop will pretty much onebang me.

Thats what makes it strong!      Against a competent vindi, i need to end the fight in 30 seconds, or i run out of defenses and die in one bang.

 

The "attacking while being defensive"-aspect, isnt even the hangup for me.  Its the fact that Deathdrop hits so hard, that it forces me to blow dodges.

If i could tank the Deathdrop, cuz it would only deal 2k dmg or something.. this would be a non issue.  Id tank it, and evade the weaponskills.  

But the fact, that its easily hitting for 5k+... is VERY punishing.     

 

 

imma put it into perspective:
Death drop

why does it have more than DOUBLE THE DMG COEFF OF DRAGONSTOOTH!?  

Why does it have more than DOUBLE THE DMG COEFF OF WATERTRIDENT? 

Like.... my hardest hitting skills..... have half the dmgcoeff of Vindi´s literal dodgeroll.

🫠🫠🫠

 

That being said.  Vindicator doesnt need a nerf! Bringing some condivomit/rabid kitten is usually their end. So there is room to beat them.

Edited April 23 by Sahne.6950

[Shagie.7612]

1 hour ago, Sahne.6950 said:

imma put it into perspective:
Death drop

why does it have more than DOUBLE THE DMG COEFF OF DRAGONSTOOTH!?  

Why does it have more than DOUBLE THE DMG COEFF OF WATERTRIDENT? 

It's because it isn't affected by weapon strength like those skills are.
Definitely agree it's too much damage but looking at just the coefficients in a vacuum doesn't make for a great comparison. It's gonna be disproportionally high because of it.

[Sahne.6950]

7 minutes ago, Shagie.7612 said:

It's because it isn't affected by weapon strength like those skills are

good to note!  i wasnt aware of this, and kind of shocked when i looked at the actual dmgcoeff.

But still... the fact, you need to dodge someones dodge.... isnt exactly great gamedesign.

Edited April 23 by Sahne.6950

[maxwelgm.4315]

After the #74629834th thread about specific classes, it's clear by now every spec has too much of everything, and the only way to counter any given X class is to bring the Y class that can do more of a particular thing that X can do a lot but not enough. In this case it's clearly condi bombs vs Vindi's lack of excessive cleanse (even though it would have a healthy amount of cleanse if condis were kept on check).

[Shagie.7612]

1 minute ago, maxwelgm.4315 said:

In this case it's clearly condi bombs vs Vindi's lack of excessive cleanse (even though it would have a healthy amount of cleanse if condis were kept on check).

I really don't think this is as big of a problem everyone makes it out to be.
Yes, if you take a hundred condi skills to the face, you're probably in trouble. You'd also just be dead if it were strike damage.

But it's also got plenty of tools to not actually get those condis on you in the first place, for disengaging and escaping while enduring what you facetanked, and sustaining through it. Tree Song is basically better than anything the entire rest of the class has lol. Heck, one half of the Alliance utilities already rivals most of the other legends, let alone having both (that's hyperbole but just barely lol)

Don't listen to hammer Vindi players about it
Actually don't listen to em period cause hot take: everyone only likes the spec because it's hilariously overloaded, nobody playing GW2 pvp actually cares about GW1 lore

[Myror.7521]

@Sahne.6950  wait Wut..... Is that the dodge doing dmg? If yes that would be insane. It even does more dmg than every burst skill warr got xD (hardest one is Eviscerate with 2.0 only ..... )

[Sahne.6950]

2 hours ago, Myror.7521 said:

@Sahne.6950  wait Wut..... Is that the dodge doing dmg? If yes that would be insane. It even does more dmg than every burst skill warr got xD (hardest one is Eviscerate with 2.0 only ..... )

Like shaggie said, weaponskill also factor in your Weapondamage, while the dodge, solely factors in your powervalue. 

Edited April 23 by Sahne.6950

[Myror.7521]

@Sahne.6950 ah hmm that kinda makes sence ^^ still its just hit hard for beeing a Dodge (witch would not be a Problem per se) and it could Press the Dodge Button like every 2-5 Seconds xd. (At least thats how it feels Like 

[Yerlock.4678]

On 4/19/2024 at 7:21 PM, Last Crab.6054 said:

Perma dodge block weapon evade or triple heal and still pump out 10K garunteed eternity requim and aoe attacks.

But thief have 3 dodge is bad, so make sure we give them exhaustion and everyone has some form of movement control.

🤙

bump

[ArthurDent.9538]

On 4/21/2024 at 9:28 AM, arazoth.7290 said:

???? link the time stamps where it "dominates" because When I watch semi/finals I don't see them even "dominating" in this video

I figured the sarcasm would be obvious enough at least to the people who cared enough to do the research. There were no vindis (or revs of any type) in the top 4 teams. It's hard to take people seriously that think a build with that little representation in top level play should be targeted for a hot fix nerf (unless maybe it's some gimmicky cheese build dominating low tier play but I really don't see that being the case). Ironically from op complaining thief being weak by comparison, specter deadeye, and daredevil were all used in the finals match let alone basically every serious team, sounds like the rich complaining middle class are spoiled with wealth.

I could make the argument vindi was actually underpowered off those tournament results but I know it was used a bit more on NA and was actually on the winning team. That just means its viable and balanced that teams can chose to use it or opt to take other things and both options are reasonably fine. 

Lastly I'm going to be that guy who defends death drop damage. The leaping dodge is vindi's schtick and falling from the sky to deliver an attack makes sense flavor wise otherwise what is the point of jumping so high if not to get more kinetic enegy for an attack on returning. From a mechanic standpoint, saying you have to dodge their dodge isn't true, it's a well telegraphed melee range attack which can often be played around with simple wasd along with most other forms of active mitigation which is much easier to counterplay than all the sources of random instant ranged damage or passive trait procs. In current balance it realistically rarely hits harder than 4k damage even in glass vs. glass matchups and they are vulnerable at the end when the damage hits so a lot of builds can just soak that damage and hit back hard. Since deathdrop has been added to the game it's probably only been meta for maybe 10% of that time, it's really not that strong of a mechanic that it will always be op because we have so many times historically to reference where it was simply not really even competitive.

I do wish the visual bug that causes enemy vindis to look like they are running in the air was fixed though it seems to have mostly gone away since they got the 2 shorter dodges.

[Flowki.7194]

Honestly, like 60% of the problem with vindi is that it has not been played much the past 2 year (I know becuase I played rev all that time), and hammer seen even less use. People, even vets are simply not use to fighting vindis with hammer. The other 40% is deathdrop and hammer 2 refresh. Hammer 4 is fine imo, should refresh get delt with (same as ranger maces).

 

Its honestly true, I know how hammer vindi works becuase I played it for months before it was buffed, and I can kill most hammer vindis on core rev becuase of that. They need to be p1+ to kill anybody who knows how it works.. becuase almost every ability is broadcast massively, more so than just about any spec in the game. Ontop of that, when you know the windows to attack/CC in, its easy to load them up with condi, which royally fks them over.

 

Im simply pointing this out so that hammer or vindi doesnt get nerfed into the ground, nobody was playing rev outside the hammer buff.. apart from vet heralds. The same kitten happened to ele, nobody really played it, condi cata.. massive nerf to stab/scepter.. destroying 90% of the classes builds. I prefere core rev anyway, but I personally find it refreshing to see more spec diversity, and vindis/heralds have to be decent to do well, there is no two ways about that. They are not a bad specs to have near/in meta, or do we want yet more face tanking bunker/duelists?

Edited April 24 by Flowki.7194

[arazoth.7290]

1 hour ago, ArthurDent.9538 said:

I figured the sarcasm would be obvious enough at least to the people who cared enough to do the research. There were no vindis (or revs of any type) in the top 4 teams. It's hard to take people seriously that think a build with that little representation in top level play should be targeted for a hot fix nerf (unless maybe it's some gimmicky cheese build dominating low tier play but I really don't see that being the case). Ironically from op complaining thief being weak by comparison, specter deadeye, and daredevil were all used in the finals match let alone basically every serious team, sounds like the rich complaining middle class are spoiled with wealth.

I could make the argument vindi was actually underpowered off those tournament results but I know it was used a bit more on NA and was actually on the winning team. That just means its viable and balanced that teams can chose to use it or opt to take other things and both options are reasonably fine. 

Lastly I'm going to be that guy who defends death drop damage. The leaping dodge is vindi's schtick and falling from the sky to deliver an attack makes sense flavor wise otherwise what is the point of jumping so high if not to get more kinetic enegy for an attack on returning. From a mechanic standpoint, saying you have to dodge their dodge isn't true, it's a well telegraphed melee range attack which can often be played around with simple wasd along with most other forms of active mitigation which is much easier to counterplay than all the sources of random instant ranged damage or passive trait procs. In current balance it realistically rarely hits harder than 4k damage even in glass vs. glass matchups and they are vulnerable at the end when the damage hits so a lot of builds can just soak that damage and hit back hard. Since deathdrop has been added to the game it's probably only been meta for maybe 10% of that time, it's really not that strong of a mechanic that it will always be op because we have so many times historically to reference where it was simply not really even competitive.

I do wish the visual bug that causes enemy vindis to look like they are running in the air was fixed though it seems to have mostly gone away since they got the 2 shorter dodges.

Sorry, it's hard to see sarcasm from some people, because some think it 😅

[Zekent.3652]

On 4/20/2024 at 8:24 PM, Deadmoose.6594 said:

yeah but are mesmers ALSO doing damage when they're invulnerable?

(the answer is no)

The answer is: yes.

Edited April 25 by Zekent.3652

[Master Ketsu.4569]

On 4/24/2024 at 4:04 PM, ArthurDent.9538 said:

I figured the sarcasm would be obvious enough at least to the people who cared enough to do the research. There were no vindis (or revs of any type) in the top 4 teams. It's hard to take people seriously that think a build with that little representation in top level play should be targeted for a hot fix nerf (unless maybe it's some gimmicky cheese build dominating low tier play but I really don't see that being the case).

Revenant tends to get more complaints than warranted when it has a playable meta build because its "cheese mechanic" is not as easy to understand or obvious to people as the cheese that other classes have access to. 

Every class has something cracked in its favor. IE Thief has stealth spam cheese, Mesmer has attacking-while-defending cheese, Warrior has assloads of sustain cheese, Ele has a ton of skills that lack meaningful counterplay/can't be blocked or evaded cheese, etc etc list goes on. All of these are annoying, BUT they are also pretty easy to understand.

Revenant's cheese is only understood by playing the class and actually getting somewhat good at it - which is that the low cooldowns plus energy system can either be dumped into offense or defense, and this allows rev to kite and chain blocks/evades for a very long time. This leads less savvy players to complain a lot because top rev builds will seem like they have too many defensive actions in relation to damage access. What they don't realize, is that this ability to chain defenses is no different than a Thief saying "Peace out" of a fight and just going into stealth to reset, because while a Rev is chaining defenses, it doesn't have as much energy for offense. If you see a Rev use something like 'Riposting shadows->Block->Riposting shadows' you now know they have no energy for a PT Burst combo for at least 10 seconds. So it's not actually as broken as it first seems.

When you take the time to learn Rev, opposing Rev's actually become the easiest class to for you to deal with in the game, because unlike other classes cheese, Rev's cheese has much more counterplay since it's predictable. If you see a Rev using certain skills, you know whether or not they have enough energy for certain combos, and thus always know what is coming. But at low skill levels, players just don't know how Revs energy system works at all which makes it seem very OP especially if the Rev player also understands their opponents class. More-so than any other matchup in the game "Revenant who understands opponents class mechanics VS any other class being played by someone who doesn't understand Rev mechanics" is the biggest shutout. The same is true for every matchup, but for a Rev to kill a player who doesn't understand Rev is always BIGTIME child's play. This is why silver/golds complain so hard when a Rev build is meta, because a good rev during a season that has an actual competitive rev build will just endlessly farm bad players out of spawn by taking advantage of the low cooldowns. As a plat+ rev main myself I have taken advantage of this to gatekeep probably hundreds of gold players out of high rated games because as soon as I notice someone doesn't know how to fight Rev I will place them on free-farm for the rest of the game. I am not sorry. 

Edited April 29 by Master Ketsu.4569