Alt account hopping violates the ArenaNet Code of Conduct

[Hellbound.5610]

20 hours ago, Chaba.5410 said:

Don't get confused.

There is only one thing being discussed: the OP's reasoning for why alt account hopping is a violation:
 

What is described here may be true of the game mode, but it is NOT a violation of the CoC especially since it doesn't meet the code's definition of match manipulation.  And to illustrate the absurdity of the line of reasoning, we can list off all the ways teams are left unbalanced without alt account hopping.

Like this: When you log off, you are unbalancing your team.  You should get reported for match manipulation.

/sarcasm
 

Strawman arguments are senseless.

You do not know what is regarded as match manipulation and neither will we ever know. It will always be a grey area up for GM discretion, just like verbal abuse etc.

Make from "you will not participate in any form of match manipulation" what you want.

It is pointless to try and argue what is and what is not.

[Zok.4956]

3 hours ago, SoulGuardian.6203 said:

Implement a system which rewards players with a bonus X2, X4, 6X, so on so forth, the longer they stay on that team, and the more they participate on that team.So let's say, Mr Anthrax is playing for the Mountain Giants. 
The more hours and participation mr anthrax puts in for that team, yhe more the bonus for Wxp, Magic find, etc, will increase.

With WR, the team will change regularly - only the WvW guild will stay the same. Your apparent solution therefore does not reduce alt-account hopping at all, since the alt-accounts could all be in a shadow guild

3 hours ago, SoulGuardian.6203 said:

But if you stop playing for that team, in 24 hours or so, that bonus will reset.

This would encourage unhealthy gaming habits, would "punish" those who cannot play every day, and would not better the problem. The players in question would then simply log into their alt accounts every day to maintain their participation once it has been maxed out.

 

[Mabi black.1824]

4 hours ago, SoulGuardian.6203 said:

But if you stop playing for that team, in 24 hours or so, that bonus will reset.

This is one of the few tips that tries to address the problem of alternate accounts, when they are used in bad faith. You still have to think it through, but it's still something that might put someone off with bad intentions.

It should be noted that if 100 guild players have created their alternate account in a second ''alternative'' guild, they will be able to choose which game to play in the entire 4-week period, with the result of emptying or moving the game they choose not to play towards numerical inferiority . And this suggestion won't move what I've indicated. The problem of alternate accounts is not that simple to deal with.

Edited June 5 by Mabi black.1824

[latlat.4516]

Believing that WvW players with multiple accounts do it solely for rewards or for "winning" is a proof you actually did not even try to interact with them. 

You want to know why they have multiple accounts to play in WvW ?

The essential is that they want to be on multiple servers at the same time. To each their own, but you have multiple reasons for this : 

- they want to self organize content in openfield. 

- they want to follow multiple guilds on multiple servers 

- they are trolls that just want to hear/know what is said about them, and for that they often need an api key linked to an account on said server. 

- it allows them to still interact with people that blacklisted them

This is also what also what gives those players/guilds the ability to "stop playing" for one or two weeks in order to maximize the chances of their main server to drop. They can just go play on another server. 

Is this really "any form" of march manipulation ? Honestly I don't think so for the reason that there is no factual difference between that and someone taking a break from the game. What would be match manipulation is 2 servers coordinating to arrive to a settlemate and stop another from going up the tiers for example. It would also be logging to your alt account in order to pull tactics before your main server attacks. Both of which are actually pretty rate. 

But choosing for which server you will play each week according to the content you will find in the MU ? Nah, it's too much of a red line for me to consider that a match manipulation. 

 

Alt accounts are not a problem in itself, nor does it impact the fairness of MUs that much. 

 

Also,

1 hour ago, SoulGuardian.6203 said:

You don't even wanna recognise that this is a problem, because you might be one of those that's doing it.

Before you start accusing others out of yourown behind, I have one single account. Would not stop me from transferring over and over again if I wanted to, and I would not care that much about loosing numbers on a bar since I would have my fun. Also, How come it is the one that states "says who" and "that's just you presuming" that is attacking others as soon as he is given valid criticism. 

[SoulGuardian.6203]

1 hour ago, Mabi black.1824 said:

This is one of the few tips that tries to address the problem of alternate accounts, when they are used in bad faith. You still have to think it through, but it's still something that might put someone off with bad intentions.

It should be noted that if 100 guild players have created their alternate account in a second ''alternative'' guild, they will be able to choose which game to play in the entire 4-week period, with the result of emptying or moving the game they choose not to play towards numerical inferiority . And this suggestion won't move what I've indicated. The problem of alternate accounts is not that simple to deal with.

True.

There's always the radical idea, for ANet to restrict ips to a certain number of accounts one can create, or the not so harsh alternative, to restrict ips from login in to more than one account per set period of time.

But I don't believe they will ever consider taking such drastic measures.

If the bonus I suggested isn't going to do the trick.

There's always something a little less restrictive, but it will definitely put a stop to this.

It will reinforce the system they already have put in place.

Give players a couple of weeks to decide Which guild they want to be in on that ip address rather than just the account. 

So all accounts that are tied to that ip will be locked up on that guild, permanently. 

If they leave the guild they're in, players get a cooldown until next wvw reset to be able to join another guild in order to play wvw again.

I know it's a bit harsh, but as things condider, population balance is never going to happen, unless strict measures are put in place...

As wvw slowly loses players, and only those active guilds will be present in it, slowly choking wvw to death, until it will be totally dead.

It is my favourite game mode, but I haven't been playing for over a month, because of it.

I went in last week just to peep, and get some stuff from vendors. 

Roamed for about 5 minutes, and logged straight the fek out.

It bored me so much, seeing SMC being taken over so easily by other teams, and hardly anyone on our side.

So I've been playing other games for over a month.

Cause SotO story didn't appeal to me at all, and the final bits of the map lagged so much, it dropped my fps to 2-4 .

I almost gave up half way through. 

So it's just mostly WvW that keeps making me coming back to this game, but if I'm not getting any content... then wth?

[SoulGuardian.6203]

22 minutes ago, latlat.4516 said:

Believing that WvW players with multiple accounts do it solely for rewards or for "winning" is a proof you actually did not even try to interact with them. 

You want to know why they have multiple accounts to play in WvW ?

The essential is that they want to be on multiple servers at the same time. To each their own, but you have multiple reasons for this : 

- they want to self organize content in openfield. 

- they want to follow multiple guilds on multiple servers 

- they are trolls that just want to hear/know what is said about them, and for that they often need an api key linked to an account on said server. 

- it allows them to still interact with people that blacklisted them

This is also what also what gives those players/guilds the ability to "stop playing" for one or two weeks in order to maximize the chances of their main server to drop. They can just go play on another server. 

Is this really "any form" of march manipulation ? Honestly I don't think so for the reason that there is no factual difference between that and someone taking a break from the game. What would be match manipulation is 2 servers coordinating to arrive to a settlemate and stop another from going up the tiers for example. It would also be logging to your alt account in order to pull tactics before your main server attacks. Both of which are actually pretty rate. 

But choosing for which server you will play each week according to the content you will find in the MU ? Nah, it's too much of a red line for me to consider that a match manipulation. 

 

Alt accounts are not a problem in itself, nor does it impact the fairness of MUs that much. 

 

Also,

Before you start accusing others out of yourown behind, I have one single account. Would not stop me from transferring over and over again if I wanted to, and I would not care that much about loosing numbers on a bar since I would have my fun. Also, How come it is the one that states "says who" and "that's just you presuming" that is attacking others as soon as he is given valid criticism. 

The problem is that you don't seem to want to acknowledge the fact that this is a big issue, and it's things like this that kills a game on the long run.

It's all nice and dandy for those who can afford multiple accounts, just out of greed for loot from wvw, but there are players that only have one account, but spend a fortune on the gemstore.

Do you think that's fair on them?

Or anyone else for that matter?

And you would frequently pay 1,000 gems to keep moving if you had to?

You're made of money.

I don't believe that for a second.

Even if you did, that's a really bad excuse and a reason to give, just to try convey to the rest of us that it's still o to do that, and its all fine.

You know it's not.

Don't try put a blanket over the smoke, when there's still fire underneath.

This is a problem, and needs to be resolved.

WvW is the favourite game mode of many players, if ANet does not do anything about this, the game will start losing a ton of players, and most probably won't return.

Let's put it this metaphorically. 

In one hand, You have an ant colony of millions. 

But on the other hand, you have a dozen greedy locusts.

The ants bring slow but steady income.

The locusts want to take over everything and steal all the gains.

Slowly but surely, the ants will disappear, eventually leaving only the dozen locusts feeding of what's left... scraps.

If that's the way you want it, go ahead.

And then kill off the game quicker than you thought, and there's no xpac in this world that's gonna bring them players back.

I let this speak for itself: "Land Spear"

Catch my drift?

Enough said.

Edited June 5 by SoulGuardian.6203

[Chaba.5410]

3 hours ago, Hellbound.5610 said:

You do not know what is regarded as match manipulation and neither will we ever know.

Just because you didn't understand the CoC doesn't mean no one else does.   It's defined right in the CoC:

"Match manipulation is defined as any action taken to fix or manipulate the outcome of a match or alter or manipulate the rankings or ratings of the ladder."

There is no gray area.  You have to prove player intent was to fix the outcome.  And in your first post the intent you cited was to "chase content".  Chasing content is not fixing the match outcome.  You conflated a secondary effect with intent when you told us about balance.  If a guild logs out because it's the end of their rally, they are leaving the match unbalanced.  If a player hops on an alt to chase content, do their dailies, whatever, they are leaving the match unbalanced.  Yes, it happens that the playing population of a team fluctuates over time.  Is it match manipulation?  No.

And because the playing population on a WvW team fluctuates over time is why the CoC section is typically applied only to sPvP matches!  You haven't even brought up the concept of tanking which truly could be considered manipulation of the outcome of a match, or when two servers coordinate to tie.  But what is Anet going to realistically do?  Ban entire servers?

Edited June 5 by Chaba.5410

[joneirikb.7506]

1 hour ago, Chaba.5410 said:

 But what is Anet going to realistically do?  Ban entire servers?

Ok, just sitting having fun with imaging this...

You know there are players that thinks they should! Just imagine players nagging on ANet until they banned Maguma for a week.... and then they realize they're put in a match-up without a 3rd server because.... Maguma is banned? Would be hilarious.

But seriously, just imagine the complete unfairness of banning an entire server/team/etc, so many innocent people caught up and told "nope" because a minority of your team did something, and then your two opposite teams "voted you out".

Yeah, lovely. I'd bring out the BBQ, sit down with an industry size popcorn to watch that train wreck.

Uhm, of topic? Yeah, so I think some of the things mentioned in this thread are negative, I don't think they have enough impact or intent to really be considered match-manipulation. I also don't think enough people care about matches to care about manipulating them in the first place... At the moment the biggest issue would be mass-transfers, and we'll have to see how WR deals with that, and if someone finds ways to work around it or not.

[Chaba.5410]

39 minutes ago, joneirikb.7506 said:

Ok, just sitting having fun with imaging this...

You know there are players that thinks they should! Just imagine players nagging on ANet until they banned Maguma for a week.... and then they realize they're put in a match-up without a 3rd server because.... Maguma is banned? Would be hilarious.

Players are always looking for some sort of advantage over their opponents, aren't they?

[asha.4159]

I believe its the core people with alt accounts that are keeping the 5 tiers alive in EU lol. this will change 14th June I hope if the veterans dont scare the new and returning players away with there toxic elitism!

Edited June 5 by asha.4159

[ArchonWing.9480]

10 hours ago, Hellbound.5610 said:

You do not know what is regarded as match manipulation and neither will we ever know.

I mean that hasn't stopped you from trying to define it either.

10 hours ago, Hellbound.5610 said:

It will always be a grey area up for GM discretion, just like verbal abuse etc.

That is actually false. There are certain words where  said enough to other players will 100% guarantee you a ban once detected. You could try it for yourself, but I wouldn't. Because there aint no grey area for those.

 

10 hours ago, Hellbound.5610 said:

Make from "you will not participate in any form of match manipulation" what you want.

That is literally not how rules work. Rules are not suggestions, nor do taking absurd exceptions of them through extremely  literal interpretation devalue them either.

You are deliberately emphasizing the word "any" as a blank check. It is  twisting the rules to "any form that can be remotely be construed as match  manipulation" which includes anything you can make up on the matter as long as you put match manipulation next to it.

Which also just causes the rule to devolve into whatever your subjective interpretation is.

If I buy a pound of apples and it turns out I took 1.03 pounds of apples, nobody is going to arrest me because it's simply too trivial a matter to bother enforcing. It doesn't mean fraud  is suddenly a grey area.

In general, unenforceable aspects of rules, especially ones based on excessively subjective interpretations like yours don't have any binding power simply because they are too  subjective. 

This isn't even to account for that rules typically exist to protect other players. When someone verbally abuses another, it deliberately ruins another player's experience, and so does afking in a pvp match. Playing on alts in a wvw server's effects are at best indirect to anyone, unless there is a coordinated and premeditated effort to do something. aka who really cares?

Edited June 5 by ArchonWing.9480

[Forgotten Legend.9281]

And in accord with ArchonWing's point... the OP can be said to have violated rules about discussing acts of Anet in response to reports, or their punishments or lack thereof... but they've clearly not decided to close and delete this thread yet. So I'd be careful if I were you, as some can argue you've already crossed the line.

[ArchonWing.9480]

16 minutes ago, Forgotten Legend.9281 said:

And in accord with ArchonWing's point... the OP can be said to have violated rules about discussing acts of Anet in response to reports, or their punishments or lack thereof... but they've clearly not decided to close and delete this thread yet. So I'd be careful if I were you, as some can argue you've already crossed the line.

That's a good one. Also, this one too

Abuse of the report tool can lead to the termination of your account. It should not be used as a weapon, but a tool to maintain the integrity of the game and community.

Come to think about it, they're encouraging other posters to risk their accounts through questionable use of the report function. Like how would even know if someone was on an alt account sometimes? Just because they rep the same guild? That's not definitive, and not like people make an account called "Thisismyalt.3505"

Very unfortunate we fell in here,. I gotta wash my hands to rid myself of any wrongdoing. 🤣

Edited June 5 by ArchonWing.9480

[Aerthan.1907]

On 6/4/2024 at 4:06 AM, Mabi black.1824 said:

Others, on the other hand, exploit it in a coordinated and organized way. They use one or the other account with the purpose of lowering the thresholds of one team rather than raising the thresholds of another team. Or they do it to fill the enemy server with ghost players running against a wall. The objective is similar to the first. They want to make sure they are numerical superiority by the enemy. They're manipulating the game as well.

If that was all they did it wouldn't be so bad. They also watch tags and tell their side where the tags are headed. This has the most damaging effect because many commanders will just go private rather than have constantly knowing their every move.

They also go into a keep right before their server is going to hit it, pull all the tacticals and then drain all the supply. 

Step 3 is to come to forums and pretend like these things don't happen on a daily basis and wonder, "why doesn't anyone want me to play with my 'friends'".

[Hellbound.5610]

12 hours ago, ArchonWing.9480 said:

I mean that hasn't stopped you from trying to define it either.

That is actually false. There are certain words where  said enough to other players will 100% guarantee you a ban once detected. You could try it for yourself, but I wouldn't. Because there aint no grey area for those.

 

That is literally not how rules work. Rules are not suggestions, nor do taking absurd exceptions of them through extremely  literal interpretation devalue them either.

You are deliberately emphasizing the word "any" as a blank check. It is  twisting the rules to "any form that can be remotely be construed as match  manipulation" which includes anything you can make up on the matter as long as you put match manipulation next to it.

Which also just causes the rule to devolve into whatever your subjective interpretation is.

If I buy a pound of apples and it turns out I took 1.03 pounds of apples, nobody is going to arrest me because it's simply too trivial a matter to bother enforcing. It doesn't mean fraud  is suddenly a grey area.

In general, unenforceable aspects of rules, especially ones based on excessively subjective interpretations like yours don't have any binding power simply because they are too  subjective. 

This isn't even to account for that rules typically exist to protect other players. When someone verbally abuses another, it deliberately ruins another player's experience, and so does afking in a pvp match. Playing on alts in a wvw server's effects are at best indirect to anyone, unless there is a coordinated and premeditated effort to do something. aka who really cares?

You are now just arguing for the sake of arguing and adding nothing to the conversation.

I can also very easily deny every single statement you make, but it is boring.

If you do not understand what grey area means then there is no help for you or any point to even have a discussion with you.

I can very easily verbally abuse you without it being obvious. In fact, I believe I just did. Am I being banned?

[SoulGuardian.6203]

I don't think OP used the right approach to address this issue.

Using CoC to make a point, it is always going to generate a lot of debate, and attract to the topic a lot of undesirable attention. 

They could have just used the simple fact that it isn't fair on those who cannot afford multiple accounts, or those who rather spend money on the gem store, but still like to play WvW.

We must agree that it isn't fair, making the game partially P2W.

If you analyse it closely, having multiple accounts does fall in the category of Pay to Win.

Also, you cannot deny that it is also in fact, partially game manipulation. 

But as I mentioned before.

What is ANet realistically going to do about it?

 

We don't know what is going on behind the scenes, when the financial advisor keeps telling that multiple accounts is a big source of income, but then the balance team doesn't know what to do, because such alterations to the game will impact their earnings.

Again, as I mentioned previously. 

ANet cannot self sabotage their income, but risk losing a massive chunk of players because of this issue.

I have suggested various possible solutions to this, but I haven't a clue what goes on in the studio. 

So I'm really just aiming in the dark, with those suggestions. 

Imo, the best one of all would be to give a bonus to those outnumbered most of the time.

I know this may sound counterproductive at first, but what would you rather do?

Give some consolation prize and keep the player, or lose them entirely?

This problem with WvW will only increase with time.You can't just place a blanket over it and expect it to go away.

Multiple accounts, and Home changing is a huge problem for WvW and needs to be resolved.

I speak for myself when I say that I haven't been playing for over a month because of it.

I logged in once to finish SotO, which almost gave up due to the horrendous lag, and a couple more times, maybe for 5 minutes, and the last for just a few hours.

This coming from a hardcore GW2 player who used to play 10 hours + daily on days off or hollydays, and most of it in WvW.

"Incentive creates incentive. 

Nothing creates nothing."

Read that again.

 

[One more for the road.8950]

10 minutes ago, SoulGuardian.6203 said:

I don't think OP used the right approach to address this issue.

Using CoC to make a point, it is always going to generate a lot of debate, and attract to the topic a lot of undesirable attention. 

They could have just used the simple fact that it isn't fair on those who cannot afford multiple accounts, or those who rather spend money on the gem store, but still like to play WvW.

We must agree that it isn't fair, making the game partially P2W.

If you analyse it closely, having multiple accounts does fall in the category of Pay to Win.

Also, you cannot deny that it is also in fact, partially game manipulation. 

But as I mentioned before.

What is ANet realistically going to do about it?

 

We don't know what is going on behind the scenes, when the financial advisor keeps telling that multiple accounts is a big source of income, but then the balance team doesn't know what to do, because such alterations to the game will impact their earnings.

Again, as I mentioned previously. 

ANet cannot self sabotage their income, but risk losing a massive chunk of players because of this issue.

I have suggested various possible solutions to this, but I haven't a clue what goes on in the studio. 

So I'm really just aiming in the dark, with those suggestions. 

Imo, the best one of all would be to give a bonus to those outnumbered most of the time.

I know this may sound counterproductive at first, but what would you rather do?

Give some consolation prize and keep the player, or lose them entirely?

This problem with WvW will only increase with time.You can't just place a blanket over it and expect it to go away.

Multiple accounts, and Home changing is a huge problem for WvW and needs to be resolved.

I speak for myself when I say that I haven't been playing for over a month because of it.

I logged in once to finish SotO, which almost gave up due to the horrendous lag, and a couple more times, maybe for 5 minutes, and the last for just a few hours.

This coming from a hardcore GW2 player who used to play 10 hours + daily on days off or hollydays, and most of it in WvW.

"Incentive creates incentive. 

Nothing creates nothing."

Read that again.

 

..........pay to win what?

[SoulGuardian.6203]

5 minutes ago, One more for the road.8950 said:

..........pay to win what?

Pay to win WvW matches.

Did you just walked into the post now?

If you are buying multiple accounts, and login on the one that's winning in wvw, it's classed as P2W.

Don't tell me you want to argue that?

Also, this "..... pay to win what?"

It's really very vague, to say the least.

What or how do you want me to respond to that?

Should I have just placed a 😕 emoji and move on.

It's P2W in this or any other game in any other reality. Period.

[One more for the road.8950]

9 minutes ago, SoulGuardian.6203 said:

Pay to win WvW matches.

Did you just walked into the post now?

If you are buying multiple accounts, and login on the one that's winning in wvw, it's classed as P2W.

Don't tell me you want to argue that?

Also, this "..... pay to win what?"

It's really very vague, to say the least.

What or how do you want me to respond to that?

Should I have just placed a 😕 emoji and move on.

It's P2W in this or any other game in any other reality. Period.

... how do you imagine that you pay to win a WvW match by having several accounts?
... and what exactly do you win?  I can't see how winning a WvW match gives you anything?

[SoulGuardian.6203]

9 minutes ago, One more for the road.8950 said:

... how do you imagine that you pay to win a WvW match by having several accounts?
... and what exactly do you win?  I can't see how winning a WvW match gives you anything?

"When a player buys items or means ingame to have an advantage over those players who cannot afford it, it's classed as P2W"

Google it yourself.

I'm not doing your homework.

And don't argue just got the sake of arguing. 

Edited June 6 by SoulGuardian.6203

[One more for the road.8950]

Just now, SoulGuardian.6203 said:

"When a player buys items or means ingame to have an advantage over those players who cannot afford it, it's classed as P2W"

Google it.

So what kind of advantage do you get from winning a WvW match? I don't find a good answer when I google.

[SoulGuardian.6203]

3 minutes ago, One more for the road.8950 said:

So what kind of advantage do you get from winning a WvW match? I don't find a good answer when I google.

Candy bars.

Chocolate truffles. 

Really?

Dude, stop wasting my time with nonsense. 

At least do some deep search and do your own research.

Not just type in google and click the first link that appears, probably from reddit.

Edited June 6 by SoulGuardian.6203

[One more for the road.8950]

1 minute ago, SoulGuardian.6203 said:

Candy bars.

Chocolate truffles. 

Really?

Dude, stop wasting my time with nonsense. 

At least do some deep search and do your own research.

Not just type in google and clivk the first link that appears, probably from reddit.

I only get threads in this forum that says there's nothing to win and links to the wiki that says you win loot and world experience by playing WvW. Nothing about what you get from winning a WvW match.

So please, do elaborate, what do you gain from winning a WvW match.

[SoulGuardian.6203]

Just now, One more for the road.8950 said:

I only get threads in this forum that says there's nothing to win and links to the wiki that says you win loot and world experience by playing WvW. Nothing about what you get from winning a WvW match.

So please, do elaborate, what do you gain from winning a WvW match.

Ascended gear.

Including armor, weapons and materials.

Some of them sell for 4 gold+ a piece.

Possible precursors.

A ton of tier 6 materials.

WvW currency....

Which also gets you more expensive items or even more gold.

Memories of battle. 

Check out price for stack.

Progression towards achievements, including legendaries.

Shall I continue?

Meanwhile, poor jonh in isolated ghost town team gets absolutely nothing.

A tap on the shoulder and a "Good boy. Now head home... go straight back home."

I'm sure you're just trolling, and you know what trolling leads towards, don't you?

If you genuinely don't know, go look up all the loot you can get from wvw.

Again, do your own homework. 

[One more for the road.8950]

Just now, SoulGuardian.6203 said:

Ascended gear.

Including armor, weapons and materials.

Some of them sell for 4 gold+ a piece.

Possible precursors.

A ton of tier 6 materials.

WvW currency....

Which also gets you more expensive items or even more gold.

Memories of battle. 

Check out price for stack.

Progression towards achievements, including legendaries.

Shall I continue?

Meanwhile, poor jonh in isolated ghost town team gets absolutely nothing.

A tap on the shoulder and a "Good boy. Now head home... go straight back home."

I'm sure you're just trolling, and you know what trolling leads towards, don't you?

If you genuinely don't know, go look up all the loot you can get from wvw.

Again, do your own homework. 

But that you get from playing no matter where you play. If you have account or many. If you win a match or not.

How is having several accounts pay to win WvW matches then and what do  you gain from it?