Why are Cele stats still in WvW, when they are removed in PvP for a reason ?

[Auragen.4162]

1 hour ago, coro.3176 said:

This might be difficult to understand because I know a lot of kids were playing vidya during covid when they should have been learning math, but returns on stats are not linear.

Power/Precision/Ferocity, for example, get exponential damage growth. That means when you pump those stats higher (eg Berserker), you get much, much more damage than when you just have a moderate amount (eg Celestial).

Power coefficients went into the dump 5 years ago. Speccing into power damage has had garbage returns for a while now compared to what they used to get.

Why are you just talking about power damage btw? What Celestial supposedly loses in power damage (very little, ~20-25% less than Marauder) it gains in everything else that Marauder gains 0 of.

Funny that you even mention Berserker at all. Berserker amulet has 373 stats vs Celestial's 648 stats. That is 74% more stats than zerk. Go play a base HP zerker power build vs any Celestial ele/harb and tell me how it goes.

Edited June 26 by Auragen.4162

[Zyreva.1078]

25 minutes ago, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

What are these numbers exactly?

crit chance * crit dmg

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

10 minutes ago, Zyreva.1078 said:

crit chance * crit dmg

Then berserker should be 151,3194% (0,7071crate * 214cdam) and cele 106,75818% (0,5543crate * 192,6cdam). Still don't know where you've got that low crit damage and that high crit chance.

[Zyreva.1078]

17 minutes ago, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

Then berserker should be 151,3194% (0,7071crate * 214cdam) and cele 106,75818% (0,5543crate * 192,6cdam). Still don't know where you've got that low crit damage and that high crit chance.

I should have specified - it's bonus crit dmg. Since base dmg always applies and not just on crits (ingame crit dmg is displayed with base dmg = 100% included, so in my example that would be 230 and 209% crit dmg).

And i used stats of an actual build (think skirm/bm/slb, but don't remember exactly and cba to recreate it), not just base stats, that's why they are higher.

Edited June 26 by Zyreva.1078

[Silinsar.6298]

6 hours ago, schloumou.3982 said:

This community is so delusional its quite funny. In any other environment the amount of risk you can manage describes your skill in action based combat, People challange themselves to naked no hit runs with limited controls and what not. Only in Gw2 the true skill of recovering over and over from endless mistakes they made defines the god gamer.  Because when they take damage  its mostly a random event with myriad of reasons all out of their control and not mismanagement of defensive cds or lack of reaction time/positioning etc.

The process of learning how to handle your opponent in the middle of a fight via trial and error you are describing is the very definition of lacking experience/skill.

Anyway cele still provides to much offensive power in combination with boons for the sustain you get.

Are you talking about PvP games? First thing that comes to mind are challenge runs for various RPGs (or other games) and I don't really think they have much to do with PvP dynamics. Though I wonder how you think those players manage to learn how to beat those challenges - surely not by doing the same thing over and over again. Picking up on what openings your opponent has, and how they're trying to exploit yours is a critical aspect of player skill. Good fights are a constant adaption to how your opponent plays, while they're doing the same.

Messing this up and failing to use important abilities to their full potential, or the other side of the coin, your opponent executing a series of skills while predicting and countering your defenses and counterpressure, is exactly what wins or loses fights. The "one random event" is usually only game deciding in very close or glass vs. glass fights, hence my critique of them (which you seem to agree with?)

How risky or hard something is to play depends on what you're fighting with which build. Lacking condi clear vs a condi-heavy build? Probably an uphill fight where you have to tread very carefully. Using those slots for abilities and traits that work better in a power vs. power duel? You might have an advantage there. Similar things with mobility and CC.

There are builds that are better on average by having more good matchups (and some of them use cele). However, something that is "high risk" (with not enough payoff) vs. everything is just a bad build in the current meta. Sure, a player that decides to play such a build anyway and is successful with it is probably very good (we could also talk about the advantages of playing off meta, but this is already getting long), but you can't be angry about not everyone doing this. I mean you probably can, but you're not doing yourself or anyone else any favors by doing so. There'll always be meta builds offering good performance. And they'll be played a lot because that's what makes them meta. Some will play the meta specs well and some won't. And there'll always be some players challenging the meta successfully and unsuccessfully, eventually evolving it.

I know it can suck to like playing a build that has more bad than good matchups, with a disadvantage against the meta ones that you'll rarely overcome with experience. Some builds might be too good in too many matchups (I'm not saying that balance is perfect). But the general assumptions of "uses cele => must be OP //  I have problems vs this => must be cele" are just jumping to conclusions that usually lack reflection and substance.

Edited June 26 by Silinsar.6298

[manu.7539]

2 hours ago, Zyreva.1078 said:

Dmg done = Weapon Strength * Power * Skill Coeff. / Target Armor

Assuming 10 stacks of might and full bloodlust for both, cele and zerk casting rapid fire at each other:

Zerk vs Cele: 1050 * 3382* 2,75 / 2832 = 3448,28 base dmg

Cele vs Zerk: 1050 * 2728 * 2,75 / 2193 = 3591,93 base dmg - higher dmg for cele on non crits!

With fury zerk gets an average crit bonus of 115 % (0,88*130,7), for cele it's 79 % (72,5*109,3), so once you factor that in, zerk would deal 7414,35 dmg to cele and cele would deal 6438,26 to zerk. A whopping 15 % difference in dmg. Add some modifiers (total of ~ 50 % for both) and we get 11,15 k and 9,68 k dmg respectively. So the zerk ranger has ~ 7 k hp left and the cele ranger almost 12 k after they burst each other. If they continue hitting each other with auto attacks, zerk dies after 4 autos while cele would need to get hit by 5 to go down - without even factoring in difference in might and other boons, vuln and uptime on other dmg mods as well as healing, which will all favour cele.

This calculation is as unfavourable for cele as it gets - and it still comes out ahead. So who is really the one who needs to back off first?

And now imagine a build that gets tb levels of condition pressure on top and tell me again, it's balanced ...

Conclusion: dont play berzerker then, just play cele... if its that strong?

 

[Nefras.7314]

31 minutes ago, manu.7539 said:

Conclusion: dont play berzerker then, just play cele... if its that strong?

 

Weve literally come full circle

[senftube.6081]

cele is ruining the wvw and anet still does nothing. Like now Zergs is cele, roaming is cele, solo is cele. ANET WAKE UP

[CafPow.1542]

3 hours ago, Zyreva.1078 said:

Dmg done = Weapon Strength * Power * Skill Coeff. / Target Armor

Assuming 10 stacks of might and full bloodlust for both, cele and zerk casting rapid fire at each other:

Zerk vs Cele: 1050 * 3382* 2,75 / 2832 = 3448,28 base dmg

Cele vs Zerk: 1050 * 2728 * 2,75 / 2193 = 3591,93 base dmg - higher dmg for cele on non crits!

So we learned that a glasscannon recieves more damage.

impressive.

[RazieL.5684]

1 hour ago, CafPow.1542 said:

So we learned that a glasscannon recieves more damage.

impressive.

no, we learned that a tank survives longer than glass 😄

using his own math i checked, just use marauder and it beats cele even with 25 might, only reason zerk loses is because 0 vitality to survive long enough, but if literal glass could always beat tanky stats every time what would the point of a tank be? and not only that, if you beat tanks with zerk what would the point of marauder be? who needs survivability if you just 1shot everyone? logic...

all in all these threads are always the same thing, 1shot players cry that hey couldn't 1shot a tank...

[Zyreva.1078]

4 hours ago, manu.7539 said:

Conclusion: dont play berzerker then, just play cele... if its that strong?

Guess what i have been doing for the past 3 years ...

43 minutes ago, RazieL.5684 said:

using his own math i checked, just use marauder and it beats cele even with 25 might, only reason zerk loses is because 0 vitality to survive long enough,

->

Quote

Posted April 15, 2023 But to bring up an example - let's assume two players with the exact same build except one being full cele and the other one being full marauder (both with pack rune) hit each other with the same skill - let's say Dragon's Tooth:

Mara vs Cele: 1000 (weapon strenght) * 2348 (power) * 1,5 (skill coeff) / 2606 (target armor) = 1351,5 base dmg

Cele vs Mara: 1000 * 1814 * 1,5 / 1967 = 1383,3 base dmg.

Slight advantage for cele, which means - since they both have about the same crit dmg (~ 92%) -with some crit luck (or crit traits/vision sigil) the cele build can "burst" the mara build harder than vice versa. That's with strike dmg only and zero boons factored in, mind you. But ofc mara has ~ 25% higher crit chance, so once that is considered (assuming 100% fury uptime for both, otherwise it's more in favour of cele) mara deals about 12% more strike dmg at average (for classes with higher base stats it's ~13-15%).

At this point we are looking at a rather minor advantage for mara while not even factoring in like half of cele's stats. So let's start by adding a little bit of might. How about 10 for the mara build and 14 stacks for cele? Guess what, the difference in strike dmg is now down to ~ 2%. Almost nothing. But we still haven't factored in all the other boons that further boost both offense and defense for the cele build as well as the much better healing. Oh and don't get me started on conditions, that not only have the potential to more than double the cele builds dmg output, but can also provide even more offense and defense via soft cc/debilitating conditions.

How is a mara build supposed to be able to compete?

So yes, if we ignore half of cele stats, mara has a pretty good chance ...

43 minutes ago, RazieL.5684 said:

all in all these threads are always the same thing, 1shot players cry that hey couldn't 1shot a tank...

And totally no cele players crying that they still manage to die somehow (and/or create bad builds) and that can't possibly be a l2p issue ofc ...

(Are you diamond rank by chance? Cele cata? Because i think i fought you already, and it would explain quite a lot ...)

Edited June 27 by Zyreva.1078

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

8 hours ago, coro.3176 said:

This might be difficult to understand because I know a lot of kids were playing vidya during covid when they should have been learning math, but returns on stats are not linear.

Power/Precision/Ferocity, for example, get exponential damage growth. That means when you pump those stats higher (eg Berserker), you get much, much more damage than when you just have a moderate amount (eg Celestial).

He's right ^

Let me explain to those who don't know what's going on here. Quick explanation:

1. Say someone is dealing 1000 flat damage with an attack.
2. Say that person has 2x modifiers running, both of them are +20% +20%.
3. Most people think the damage modifiers are additive, but they are multiplicative. They think the equation is 20% + 20% = 40% and then the game adds 40% more damage onto the flat 1000 damage, resulting in 1400 damage. This is not how it works.
4. What it actually does, is it adds the first 20% resulting in 1200 damage, and then takes that whole number as the new base before it applies the next 20%, resulting in 1440 damage.
5. When you're on a full power DPS class that has a string of damage mods across traits & gear that looks like: +7% +10% +5% +15% +15% +25%, this becomes extremely amplified when you're running full power stats, and we aren't even talking crits & crit damage % yet.

To add a supporting point what he's said here, it's also important to note that defensive stats have the opposite exponential effect as damage. What I mean is this:

1. You have protection on which grants -33% power damage.
2. You have Frost Aura running with is another -10% power damage, but this does not stack into a -43% power damage. What it is actually doing, is the prot does -33% damage first, and then whatever damage is left, is then effected by the -10% from Frost Aura.
3. In other words, in GW2, if you had 3x modifiers that were all doing -33% power damage, it will not be -99% damage. if you are taking 1000 damage, the first 33% would knock it down to 666 damage, and then the next 33% would use the remainder of that whole number 666 and remove 33% from that new whole number, which would drop that damage down to about 447. And then the final -33% would drop 447 down to about 300.
4. If it worked the way people thought it did, it would drop 1000 damage down to like 10 damage only, which clearly it does not do this.
5. These diminishing returns even apply to toughness/armor the more it is stacked vs. damage equation. In other words, say you had +400 toughness. The first 200 toughness is cutting out a larger amount of whole number damage than the stacked extra 200, which is cutting out significantly less with how the equation works.

Again, what he said in his response was true. Pure DPS builds have exponentially ramped up damage output. And what I pointed out here, stacked defensive attributes actually have the opposite effect.

Before people complain about "how much more stats Cele has than other stat lines" they need to unerstand that Cele is not benefitting that exponential DPS ramp like pure DPS stat lines, and it also isn't stacking numbers in the defense department in the way they think it does either. There is a reason why it has those higher stat values to compensate for not being able to capitalize on multiplicative stat ramping.

I'd also like to point out in support to this statement, that protection buff on a pure serk build, is actually mitigating more damage with its 33% than prot applied to something that has 3000 armor value. It's true.

 

[RazieL.5684]

5 hours ago, Zyreva.1078 said:

So yes, if we ignore half of cele stats, mara has a pretty good chance ...

interesting, so the better scaling stats do worse if we lower their stats, how didn't i think of that, if i wanted to win just magically get more stats in my favor...

5 hours ago, Zyreva.1078 said:

And totally no cele players crying that they still manage to die somehow (and/or create bad builds) and that can't possibly be a l2p issue ofc ...

considering you are playing a tank build and not just die but get close to 1shot by a damage build kinda literally makes tanks useless in the game... can't you understand that if a healer or a tank dies easily to 1 dps it makes the whole role useless to exist? if you are in a group you would be better off to bring just 2 more dps instead of a tank and healer, by your logic tank shouldn't do any damage meaning he would represent 0 threat to the enemy team so they would completely ignore him while they go for the squishies, and healer shouldn't be able to survive 1 dps so the one that comes for him and the one that should be fighting the tank but ignores the tank goes for the healer instead, both would insta gib it... do i really need to explain this?...

5 hours ago, Zyreva.1078 said:

(Are you diamond rank by chance? Cele cata? Because i think i fought you already, and it would explain quite a lot ...)

i literally have no idea who you are... but recently i heard there is someone using my name asking for people to get kitten or something so there's that...
 

also what @Trevor Boyer.6524 said is also true, power stats just scale way better than condi stats, ferocity can stack to infinity while expertise only stacks to 100% and then can be easily cleansed

but i'll give you that the +45 healing i get on my signet passive really helps beat those thieves that crit me anywhere between 6k and 13k per attack

Edited June 27 by RazieL.5684

[CafPow.1542]

6 hours ago, Zyreva.1078 said:

And totally no cele players crying that they still manage to die somehow (and/or create bad builds) and that can't possibly be a l2p issue ofc ...

Ofc course it’s a l2p issue for a cele player in this case but why isn’t it a l2p issue for the glasscannon when he can’t oneshot a cele dude and it’s the stats that are the problem.

 

your math is cool n all but as you self just said: l2p.

don‘t you think a well placed dodge roll can avoid way more damage and prevent my death way better than the toughness and vitality on my cele gear? And tgat is only 1 aspect. Condi cleanse and sustain and -yes- ofc also applying your burst properly.

 

celestial is a strong statcombo. (Just like minstrel or zerker is in their own way). And cele shines quite well on specific situations like ele-roaming. But playing the game properly is way more impactful.

[bq pd.2148]

4 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

1. When you're on a full power DPS class that has a string of damage mods across traits & gear that looks like: +7% +10% +5% +15% +15% +25%, this becomes extremely amplified when you're running full power stats, and we aren't even talking crits & crit damage % yet.
    

[..]

Before people complain about "how much more stats Cele has than other stat lines" they need to unerstand that Cele is not benefitting that exponential DPS ramp like pure DPS stat lines, and it also isn't stacking numbers in the defense department in the way they think it does either. There is a reason why it has those higher stat values to compensate for not being able to capitalize on multiplicative stat ramping.

the damage modifiers from traits and equipment upgrades indeed stack multiplicative and not additive, so the string of modifiers you posted end up being about 104.3% damage increase total instead of 77%. however traits and upgrades do not have cele/zerker stats. so you can use the same traits and upgrades on cele and zerker equipment, they both benefit from the same 104.3% damage increase.

now power stats will have higher base power damage stats and thus gain more total damage from those modifiers, yet in return cele gets more % damage increase from the the +power traits as well as might, which they usually can keep up easier due to the boon duration. with enough +stat traits and might uptime, there is less difference in how much they profit from modifiers.

this also only takes into account the power damage, not that cele is actually doing hybrid damage, thus significant condi damage aswell and having more defense. because of this i do switch to cele builds when i solo various lords as i do more DPS than a power build, not for the sustain. on thief there are actually 2 lords (fire keep and necropolis) that i still do on power because i have more sustain with power using crit->heal and will take the loss in damage for that.

[Arheundel.6451]

18 minutes ago, CafPow.1542 said:

Ofc course it’s a l2p issue for a cele player in this case but why isn’t it a l2p issue for the glasscannon when he can’t oneshot a cele dude and it’s the stats that are the problem.

 

your math is cool n all but as you self just said: l2p.

don‘t you think a well placed dodge roll can avoid way more damage and prevent my death way better than the toughness and vitality on my cele gear? And tgat is only 1 aspect. Condi cleanse and sustain and -yes- ofc also applying your burst properly.

 

celestial is a strong statcombo. (Just like minstrel or zerker is in their own way). And cele shines quite well on specific situations like ele-roaming. But playing the game properly is way more impactful.

As you say, nothing can beat proper gameplay and you can add correct math for stat calculation to your statement. Celestial gear is a matter of convenience for stats padding. In truth, you can closely replicate the same results with a combination of different gear pieces and runes, meaning that nothing would change if you remove Celestial today. Realistically people here will blame Gear when they lose to an ele for example...even without knowing what he is running. Furthermore let's not forget that average GW2 player tend to confuse a well placed dodge/block/evade with facetanking due to celestial gear ...in their mind at least

[RazieL.5684]

2 hours ago, bq pd.2148 said:

because of this i do switch to cele builds when i solo various lords as i do more DPS than a power build, not for the sustain

uhh what?

[bq pd.2148]

22 minutes ago, RazieL.5684 said:

uhh what?

what are you confused about? me not already running on cele when i arrive at the lord, that i am solo there, that switching templates speeds up the pve part, that i can have enough sustain to fight the lords on a power build...it does sometimes help to use more than 2 words.

[RazieL.5684]

4 minutes ago, bq pd.2148 said:

what are you confused about? me not already running on cele when i arrive at the lord, that i am solo there, that switching templates speeds up the pve part, that i can have enough sustain to fight the lords on a power build...it does sometimes help to use more than 2 words.

i am confused about the part in which you said that cele does more dps than zerk

[CafPow.1542]

2 hours ago, Arheundel.6451 said:

As you say, nothing can beat proper gameplay and you can add correct math for stat calculation to your statement. Celestial gear is a matter of convenience for stats padding. In truth, you can closely replicate the same results with a combination of different gear pieces and runes, meaning that nothing would change if you remove Celestial today. Realistically people here will blame Gear when they lose to an ele for example...even without knowing what he is running. Furthermore let's not forget that average GW2 player tend to confuse a well placed dodge/block/evade with facetanking due to celestial gear ...in their mind at least

Pretty much. I‘d wager that deleting celestial would only make the people complain about the next scapegoat.

it is legit tho to think about nerfing cele to sone amount. Not necessarily deleting concentration and expertise (cause it’s super random to pick 2 stats out of all only because „they once where not on it). But maybe yeah, this could also be a change.

but if one struggles to kill somebody on a glasscannon build cause one can’t oneshot, then the issue is „that one“ not knowing how to play defensively on a glasscannon build a.k.a. positioning, timing (when to engage) etc.

[Zyreva.1078]

4 hours ago, RazieL.5684 said:

considering you are playing a tank build and not just die but get close to 1shot by a damage build kinda literally makes tanks useless in the game... can't you understand that if a healer or a tank dies easily to 1 dps it makes the whole role useless to exist? if you are in a group you would be better off to bring just 2 more dps instead of a tank and healer, by your logic tank shouldn't do any damage meaning he would represent 0 threat to the enemy team so they would completely ignore him while they go for the squishies, and healer shouldn't be able to survive 1 dps so the one that comes for him and the one that should be fighting the tank but ignores the tank goes for the healer instead, both would insta gib it... do i really need to explain this?...

1. Tank isn't a role that exists in PvP. It has no purpose. There are no aggro mechanics. PvP is about killing each other. Healers are supposed to be kept alive by their allies. It's not a solo role.

2. Cele isn't a "tank" (or healer) gear. Tanks and healers don't kill stuff and there are better stats for tanking and/or healing. Cele builds do kill stuff. Quite effectively.

3. There are many stat combinations that offer defensive stats and that are just as good at countering "oneshots" than cele. Reverting cele buffs would change nothing vs oneshots, because only vita and toughness are relevant in that situation and those stats haven't changed.

4. Dmg modifiers and extra stats from traits aren't exclusive to certain stat types and cele can make use of those too.

5. Yes, power scales better with stats and modifiers than condi. Which is why it's so ridiculous that cele can technically compete even with power only builds - but then gets condi pressure on top that is pretty close to that of a pure condi build (that's also why there is zero reason to play anything pure condi over cele anymore).

3 hours ago, CafPow.1542 said:

Ofc course it’s a l2p issue for a cele player in this case but why isn’t it a l2p issue for the glasscannon when he can’t oneshot a cele dude and it’s the stats that are the problem.

Oneshots are gated by stats, survival is not. But that's completely irrelevant here. Oneshot builds have absolutely no relevancy in this discussion. Absolutely nobody is complaining that cele can't get oneshot - the few of you that want to defend cele are the only ones that keep bringing that nonsense up every single time. Yet cele defense vs oneshots has never changed, there are many stat combinations that offer more vita + toughness and that are therefore even harder to oneshot, and therefore nerfing or even deleting cele wouldn't change a thing in this regard.

3 hours ago, Arheundel.6451 said:

In truth, you can closely replicate the same results with a combination of different gear pieces and runes,

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PSwEYSNsMU2Hzi5xaxi+5NeC-D2IY1omvUysAKNEyNB6NCk/qAN03pEA-w

There, replicate those stats. Without using cele. Good luck ...

(Others are invited to try it too)

Edited June 27 by Zyreva.1078

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

2 hours ago, bq pd.2148 said:

the damage modifiers from traits and equipment upgrades indeed stack multiplicative and not additive, so the string of modifiers you posted end up being about 104.3% damage increase total instead of 77%. however traits and upgrades do not have cele/zerker stats. so you can use the same traits and upgrades on cele and zerker equipment, they both benefit from the same 104.3% damage increase.

now power stats will have higher base power damage stats and thus gain more total damage from those modifiers, yet in return cele gets more % damage increase from the the +power traits as well as might, which they usually can keep up easier due to the boon duration. with enough +stat traits and might uptime, there is less difference in how much they profit from modifiers.

this also only takes into account the power damage, not that cele is actually doing hybrid damage, thus significant condi damage aswell and having more defense. because of this i do switch to cele builds when i solo various lords as i do more DPS than a power build, not for the sustain. on thief there are actually 2 lords (fire keep and necropolis) that i still do on power because i have more sustain with power using crit->heal and will take the loss in damage for that.

Even in pve, what we are describing here is extremely visible.

For anyone who can say they've done testing in the raid golem room, it is very true that Celestial builds aren't even in the same league of damage potential as an actual full DPS wearing say Berserker or Viper. And I'm talking even if the Celestial build has full DPS traits designed for Celestial, the Cele will be dealing like 1/3rd the DPS output as Berserker or Viper, and this is also considering the use of the console for full buffs on both the Cele and the Serk.

This is because although they benefit the same modifiers while using the same build, the whole number boosts that the pure DPS is getting at the end of its equation begins to get insanely bloated compared to what the Cele gets. It's to the point that even a +100 boost to power begins to add extremely large amounts of additional DPS to full-on maximum damage builds. 

I mean look at this -> The Fastest Boss In Guild Wars 2 (youtube.com). A full Cele DPS comp might be able to do that in like 1/4th the time. The point being is that the aforementioned damage ramping effect with full DPS stat lines is very real in GW2.

 

[Zyreva.1078]

8 minutes ago, RazieL.5684 said:

i am confused about the part in which you said that cele does more dps than zerk

Dodging is a dps loss ...

7 minutes ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

For anyone who can say they've done testing in the raid golem room,

You clearly didn't ...

But yes, cele won't "oneshot" fractal bosses, so it has to be balanced in WvW ...

[bq pd.2148]

9 minutes ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Even in pve, what we are describing here is extremely visible.

For anyone who can say they've done testing in the raid golem room, it is very true that Celestial builds aren't even in the same league of damage potential as an actual full DPS wearing say Berserker or Viper. And I'm talking even if the Celestial build has full DPS traits designed for Celestial, the Cele will be dealing like 1/3rd the DPS output as Berserker or Viper, and this is also considering the use of the console for full buffs on both the Cele and the Serk.

This is because although they benefit the same modifiers while using the same build, the whole number boosts that the pure DPS is getting at the end of its equation begins to get insanely bloated compared to what the Cele gets. It's to the point that even a +100 boost to power begins to add extremely large amounts of additional DPS to full-on maximum damage builds. 

I mean look at this -> The Fastest Boss In Guild Wars 2 (youtube.com). A full Cele DPS comp might be able to do that in like 1/4th the time. The point being is that the aforementioned damage ramping effect with full DPS stat lines is very real in GW2.

 

my main problem with your previous post was that anyone is affect by an exponential gain in power damage from trait/upgrade choices, while you said:

8 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

 Cele is not benefitting that exponential DPS ramp like pure DPS stat lines

which is simply false. only the starting base is lower.

further for damage in a 1 vs 1 scenario, which as far as i understood this thread is mostly about, your group burst demonstration doesnt matter at all.
yes power builds will burst higher and for a short amount of time they might even have relevant boons for that up, coupled with the breakbars on a boss that will get to quite high levels. but do you ever wonder why most solo open world champ farm builds are cele? because when solo and the fight last longer than a couple seconds, boon uptime and the condi portion of the damage will easily push cele solo dps beyond that of power, while in most cases having higher sustain. (thief in WvW would be a bit of an exception to that sustain due to invigorating precision still being at 20% there, while otherwise having not much scaling for healing power)

[CafPow.1542]

18 minutes ago, Zyreva.1078 said:

Oneshots are gated by stats, survival is not. But that's completely irrelevant here. Oneshot builds have absolutely no relevancy in this discussion. Absolutely nobody is complaining that cele can't get oneshot - the few of you that want to defend cele are the only ones that keep bringing that nonsense up every single time. Yet cele defense vs oneshots has never changed, there are many stat combinations that offer more vita + toughness and that are therefore even harder to oneshot, and therefore nerfing or even deleting cele wouldn't change a thing in this regard.

But it is really.

let‘s talk about Henry. He loves his power burst build and laughs when he oneshots others. Sometimes he gets oneshot too, that’s to sad but he understands why this happens.

one day, he fails to apply the lmao-burst and the other guy has the audacity to still live. Now henry has to use other buttons like the one for the dodge roll. Bravely, henry presses „w“ two times to get out of that funny fire tornado the spinning norn girl there does. Now he uses a jump to get out but what’s that? Other classes have tp‘s too?

oh god henrys hp drops faster than a fat kid on a seesaw and his cd‘s are not up yet. And then he dies.

clearly, cele is the problem.

now ofc i am overdramatizing the scenario but it all boils down. Every build is made of multiple things:

stats (gear)

traits

skills used

personal skill

and the same again for the enemy.

of all those things, only one aspect is broken? That is short sighted. Every build can be countered. Again not saying cele is totally fine but it’s just not the unkillable afk damage-machine some people think it is.