RazieL.5684 Posted June 27 Share Posted June 27 7 minutes ago, Zyreva.1078 said: If you aim for equal toughness and healing then every single offensive stat will be lower. But yea, it's magically going to have "a lot more attack power", right. Guess that's the same sort of magic that applies a speed debuff to cele or prevents it from utilizing stealth and mobility skills. Idk how someone can spout so much easily disprovable nonsense with so much confidence. Over and over again ... he is planning to sacrifice some vitality, concentration and all of expertise to gain the offensive stats 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zyreva.1078 Posted June 27 Share Posted June 27 1 minute ago, RazieL.5684 said: he is planning to sacrifice some vitality, concentration and all of expertise to gain the offensive stats How? Like srsly, just use the build editor and play arround with the stats. What he is claiming is simply impossible. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RazieL.5684 Posted June 27 Share Posted June 27 Just now, Zyreva.1078 said: How? Like srsly, just use the build editor and play arround with the stats. What he is claiming is simply impossible. idk how? he said he is testing in game right now so i'm waiting to see 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zyreva.1078 Posted June 27 Share Posted June 27 Ok, and i thought only Trevor is that special. Guess i'm the stupid one here ... 1 1 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RazieL.5684 Posted June 27 Share Posted June 27 Just now, Zyreva.1078 said: Ok, and i thought only Trevor is that special. Guess i'm the stupid one here ... you are the only one who is turning it to ad hominems... 4 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrollingDemigod.3041 Posted June 27 Share Posted June 27 1 hour ago, Zyreva.1078 said: There you go: Core account with (mostly) exotic cele gear vs "oneshot" slb: I recommend watching at double speed and/or skipping through it, because it really isn't very spectacular. There are a few cuts that are unintentional - i simply stopped recording, because i thought the fight was over, then got attacked again and started recording mid combat again (i'm not using shadowplay or a similar software that would allow backtracking to catch everything). Don't think any further commentary is needed ... Ain't no way this was real fight. It looks like some wall ranger got lost in forest trying to get back to his sm wall. That's not even anywhere near "power" build not mentioning "oneshot". 1 1 1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RazieL.5684 Posted June 27 Share Posted June 27 Just now, TrollingDemigod.3041 said: Ain't no way this was real fight. It looks like some wall ranger got lost in forest trying to get back to his sm wall. That's not even anywhere near "power" build not mentioning "oneshot". i didn't want to sound offensive to trevor but honestly this kinda looked like my 3 hour experience on ranger... clearly trevor doesn't play much ranger considering he pushed his opponent away and used worldly impact in place... that's something i would do... but he did make the challenge so excuses are not acceptable imho... 2 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrollingDemigod.3041 Posted June 27 Share Posted June 27 1 minute ago, RazieL.5684 said: i didn't want to sound offensive to trevor but honestly this kinda looked like my 3 hour experience on ranger... clearly trevor doesn't play much ranger considering he pushed his opponent away and used worldly impact in place... that's something i would do... but he did make the challenge so excuses are not acceptable imho... The one shot rangers I met in WvW could dish 20k+ dmg within seconds in melee if you made mistake, even worse if you didn't have any stab. There were also ones that could dish a lot of damage from Rapid Fire alone if you face tanked it and both situations are against cele with prot. I'd believe if it was described as "soldier vs cele", that would make sense, but claiming it to be "oneshot" or even "power" is a bit fat no. There's 0 pressure in that video from power ranger. 1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RazieL.5684 Posted June 27 Share Posted June 27 1 minute ago, TrollingDemigod.3041 said: The one shot rangers I met in WvW could dish 20k+ dmg within seconds in melee if you made mistake, even worse if you didn't have any stab. There were also ones that could dish a lot of damage from Rapid Fire alone if you face tanked it and both situations are against cele with prot. I'd believe if it was described as "soldier vs cele", that would make sense, but claiming it to be "oneshot" or even "power" is a bit fat no. There's 0 pressure in that video from power ranger. i could believe it's "oneshot" but i think it was just played improperly even though i probably wouldn't do better myself on that class... the thing is i have seen people do 8k mauls on cele but somehow this one barely did 4k rapid fire even though half was dodged still that was some pathetic damage 😄this video was pretty pointless Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zyreva.1078 Posted June 27 Share Posted June 27 (edited) Just for the record, i used the word "oneshot" (with quotation!) because that's what Trevor was talking about. I'm well aware that he wasn't actually on a full glass "oneshot" build - those have less cleansing and sustain and tend to die much faster. Edited June 27 by Zyreva.1078 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevor Boyer.6524 Posted June 27 Share Posted June 27 Just now, Zyreva.1078 said: Just for the record, i used the word "oneshot" because that's what Trevor was talking about. I'm well aware that he wasn't actually on a glass build - those have less cleansing and sustain amd tend to die much faster. What you fought was 90% serk + a couple diviner rings with conc infusions + pack runes for about 33% boon duration. It runs wild/beast/soulbeast for generally good cleanse so it can realistically escape bad situations. You can't actually run marks/skirm true oneshot variants in wvw. It's just way too squishy and no longer worth it post-nerf of One Wolf Pack. @RazieL.5684 It wasn't a pride duel. At least it wasn't for me. I willingly walked into what any ranger main would tell you, is virtually an impossible hard-counter situation to deal with, power ranger vs. condi ranger. I did it for the sake of demonstrating power roamer vs. cele duelist. I did it for the sake of this thread discussion. We should have used a more balanced class match up or I should have altered my build into a duelist version rather than a roaming version, but I didn't think of it at the time. You guys are trying too hard to ****post on me here. If you want to see a pride duel worthy of gloating & ****posting, we can go right back in there with a record and have him duel me when I'm actually running a duel build. 100% guarantee you the end result will be very different. 41 minutes ago, TrollingDemigod.3041 said: The one shot rangers I met in WvW could dish 20k+ dmg within seconds in melee if you made mistake, even worse if you didn't have any stab. There were also ones that could dish a lot of damage from Rapid Fire alone if you face tanked it and both situations are against cele with prot. I'd believe if it was described as "soldier vs cele", that would make sense, but claiming it to be "oneshot" or even "power" is a bit fat no. There's 0 pressure in that video from power ranger. You're remembering pre-nerf of One Wolf Pack. There are large reasons why you don't see Soulbeasts roaming anymore. It's honestly mediocre at best nowadays because it lost so much damage off its burst from the OWP nerf. Also his build is an extreme condibunker. He had very high armor value and perpetual protection buff + heavy heal over time, and inflated barrier padding from heal stat off of protect me!. As I said before, the build he was running vs. my build structure was an extreme counter situation. ****post on me all you want, but if you know this game's competitive balance at all, you know this is true. 3 1 1 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrollingDemigod.3041 Posted June 27 Share Posted June 27 8 minutes ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said: What you fought was 90% serk + a couple diviner rings with conc infusions + pack runes for about 33% boon duration. It runs wild/beast/soulbeast for generally good cleanse so it can realistically escape bad situations. You can't actually run marks/skirm true oneshot variants in wvw. It's just way too squishy and no longer worth it post-nerf of One Wolf Pack. @RazieL.5684 It wasn't a pride duel. At least it wasn't for me. I willingly walked into what any ranger main would tell you, is virtually an impossible hard-counter situation to deal with, power ranger vs. condi ranger. I did it for the sake of demonstrating power roamer vs. cele duelist. I did it for the sake of this thread discussion. We should have used a more balanced class match up or I should have altered my build into a duelist version rather than a roaming version, but I didn't think of it at the time. You guys are trying too hard to ****post on me here. If you want to see a pride duel worthy of gloating & ****posting, we can go right back in there with a record and have him duel me when I'm actually running a duel build. 100% guarantee you the end result will be very different. You're remembering pre-nerf of One Wolf Pack. There are large reasons why you don't see Soulbeasts roaming anymore. It's honestly mediocre at best nowadays because it lost so much damage off its burst from the OWP nerf. Also his build is an extreme condibunker. He had very high armor value and perpetual protection buff + heavy heal over time, and inflated barrier padding from heal stat off of protect me!. As I said before, the build he was running vs. my build structure was an extreme counter situation. ****post on me all you want, but if you know this game's competitive balance at all, you know this is true. First thing, that in video isn't a fight, it's a wall ranger trying to get back to his walls objective, there's no combat there. Second thing, you're kinda stating that the video doesn't show a real fight, so what's the point of posting it? Third thing, I've met few Soulbeasts that run power builds that could dish a lot of damage, they weren't 1trickponies, but still could burst you down in seconds and still be very tanky and that is from past month. It was mace/mace something. Fourth thing, you don't generate any threat to him though, so claiming "extreme counter situation" when you literally don't fight is a bit too much. The hard counter is a condi deadeye to everything else in the game, here you presented lack of pressure against something that doesn't have even a stab in it's kit. 1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevor Boyer.6524 Posted June 27 Share Posted June 27 (edited) 35 minutes ago, TrollingDemigod.3041 said: First thing, that in video isn't a fight, it's a wall ranger trying to get back to his walls objective, there's no combat there. I was trying to bait him into a blind spot so I could open a burst with CCing him into Barrage as an opener before committing to the rest of the burst. It was the only way to land enough damage to "oneshot him" so to say, and oneshotting was the only way to possibly deal with his build because it resustains so quickly, and I can't stay to brawl with it because I don't have enough cleanse on that build. I was running a high mobility roamer, not a 1v1 duel build. 35 minutes ago, TrollingDemigod.3041 said: Second thing, you're kinda stating that the video doesn't show a real fight, so what's the point of posting it? I'm not the one that posted it bud. 35 minutes ago, TrollingDemigod.3041 said: Third thing, I've met few Soulbeasts that run power builds that could dish a lot of damage, they weren't 1trickponies, but still could burst you down in seconds and still be very tanky and that is from past month. It was mace/mace something. Yeah, you're encountering duel builds my dude. Mace/Mace is great in isolated 1v1s. Those aren't roamer builds. In roaming, you are pigeonholed into having to use Longbow/Greatsword/Sword Main-hand on power builds. This is for landing high damage from range, the stealth on lb3, knockback to create gap between you and your opponent, and mobility leaps for general disengagement. If you don't use those 3 weapons on Ranger when you are power roaming, you simply can't move around quickly enough to avoid groups of players you encounter and you get ran down. Without those weapons you surely die in just about any 1v2 engagement you enter. But with those weapons, you can straight run from zergs and survive. This also serves offensively when you are trying to chase other roamers or stragglers. They can't get away from you if you are using LB/GS/Sword. Again, if you look at his slow speed in the video, he'd never be able to disengage a 1v2 against say my build + a Willbender. He'd go down fast. He also wouldn't be able to chase something like my build or a Willbender during any serious roaming to actually get a kill, they'd just leave when they realized it was a 1v1 bunker duelist. 35 minutes ago, TrollingDemigod.3041 said: Fourth thing, you don't generate any threat to him though, so claiming "extreme counter situation" when you literally don't fight is a bit too much Do you not play competitive modes? This is how you deal with bunker duelist specs when you're power burst. You need to kite, reset CDs, and come back in with full bursts. It's just all you can do. Obviously staying to brawl with it will result in losing swiftly. Furthermore, which I've stated several times now, CLEARLY IT IS THE SUPERIOR DUELIST. I've been saying that for 3 or 4 pages now. No one was arguing that. The following point to be made again, is that the balance lies within the factor that even though it is good at winning an isolated 1v1, it cannot disengage 1vX situations. Those 1v1 cele duelist builds just die when they get 2v1'd and get ran over by small skirmish parties waaay too easily to play them for any serious roaming. The build I was running however, has the stealth & mobility to move around an actually do stuff without dying while roaming. This is the difference between 1v1 cele duelists builds, and actual roaming builds. I keep trying to point this out and ya'all are trying to ignore it. I will say it again: His build can win isolated 1v1s, but it couldn't disengage me and survive if there were 2 of me in there. But my build could disengage and survive 3 or 4 or 6 of him. This is where the balance is, this is what I keep trying to point out. There is a difference between 1v1 cele duelists builds and actual roaming builds. 1v1 cele duelist builds really aren't good at actual roaming and they aren't good at zerging either. They're only good in isolated 1v1s and very small skirmish like 3v3s up to maybe 5v5s. When numbers get higher than that, they don't have enough AoE or squad support to be impactful because their designs are entirely built around selfish sustain and usually powerful single target skills. 35 minutes ago, TrollingDemigod.3041 said: The hard counter is a condi deadeye to everything else in the game, here you presented lack of pressure against something that doesn't have even a stab in it's kit. Nah man. Deadeye isn't that strong in wvw roaming. It really isn't. That build that I ran in the video very easily hard counters any & all Thief builds. A Power LB Sic Em OWP Soulbeast is like the hardest possible counter for any Thief build for obvious reasons. Also, I highly doubt his condi tank ranger would lose to a DE. It may take a long time to chase it or bait it around a corner into a burst, but there aint no way a DE is gonna dish enough damage to down that build while he was counterpressuring. Just wouldn't happen. Good Ranger builds don't use stab my dude, they use a lot of stun breaks. Edited June 27 by Trevor Boyer.6524 2 1 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
igmolicious.5986 Posted June 27 Share Posted June 27 (edited) Honestly I would have no complaint with cele being removed if every profession had the same base hp and armor, and at least 1 (core) method for applying reveal, and I feel like there are probably a lot of others who run at least one character with cele that would agree. Would some skills need some rebalancing? Almost certainly, but I don't think it would be even close to a majority of them. Then we could go back to complaining about Trailblazer. Edit: Since there are a few confused people, wanted to break down what I meant about base hp and armor into stats For HP (at level 80) the base hp bonus for warrior and necromancer is 9212, for revenant, engineer, ranger, and mesmer it is 5922, and for guardian, thief, and elementalist it is 1645. That means the highest hp bonus has effectively 329 more vitality points than the middle value, and 756 more vitality points than the lowest value. For ascended armor, the heavy amor is 1271, medium armor is 1118, and light armor is 967. That means that heavy professions effectively have 153 more toughness points than medium professions and 304 more points than light classes. If we break that down into bonus per profession and normalize to the lowest value (elementalist), we get the following (arranged by effective bonus attribute points): Warrior: 1061 Revenant: 732 Engineer: 579 Ranger: 579 Mesmer: 428 Guardian: 304 Thief: 151 Elementalist: 0 That means warrior, having the highest hp pool and armor class has 1061 more BASE attribute points over the lowest hp and armor class elementalist, and 329 more than the next highest bonus (revenant). What I am suggesting is that those bonus points allow certain professionss to more easily use focused power or condi stat sets because they don't need to make up for the difference in base hp/armor. If that was evened out, then all professions would be able to pick a more focused stat set. For the reveal part, that's mostly because stealth is still the only core game mechanic that has no counter available to most core professions -- all core professions have access to cleanse for condis, stun breaks for stuns, and toughness stat sets to help with power damage, but only 4 of the core professions out of 9 have the ability to apply revealed. Hope that breakdown clears up the confusion for the confused people. Edited June 29 by igmolicious.5986 2 1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nefras.7314 Posted June 27 Share Posted June 27 3 hours ago, igmolicious.5986 said: Honestly I would have no complaint with cele being removed if every profession had the same base hp and armor, and at least 1 (core) method for applying reveal, and I feel like there are probably a lot of others who run at least one character with cele that would agree. Would some skills need some rebalancing? Almost certainly, but I don't think it would be even close to a majority of them. Then we could go back to complaining about Trailblazer. Powerpilled and based. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gofriccurself.9037 Posted June 28 Share Posted June 28 Because pvp is thriving! As annoying as it can be, take your pick....another dead mode or nah. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
schloumou.3982 Posted June 28 Share Posted June 28 On 6/27/2024 at 1:02 PM, Trevor Boyer.6524 said: I think most of you here complaining about cele are seriously not understanding the skill ceiling that full DPS builds have. On 6/27/2024 at 1:02 PM, Trevor Boyer.6524 said: You're missing the point bud. The point is that I can oneshot your cele build in wvw with something like a Sic Em One Wolf Pack Soulbeast wearing berserker. On 6/27/2024 at 1:02 PM, Trevor Boyer.6524 said: I mean where does the complaint turn to after you show up to a duel session and someone schools all your cele builds with some highly mobile berserker builds? On 6/27/2024 at 1:02 PM, Trevor Boyer.6524 said: I can run any class you want against it, while wearing berserker. The fact that you couln't show up with any power build on the class you main to even remotely handle a core ranger on cele after these statements is honestly the best WvW content since months. Now imagine what happens if you fight strong cele builds like s/f cata. 9 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevor Boyer.6524 Posted June 28 Share Posted June 28 2 minutes ago, schloumou.3982 said: The fact that you couln't show up with any power build on the class you main to even remotely handle a core ranger on cele after these statements is honestly the best WvW content since months. Aight, I'm tired of this. Unless you want to go in-game and challenge me when I'm using an actual duel build, knock off the sh!tposting. Let me know. I'll be here all day. 2 2 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
schloumou.3982 Posted June 29 Share Posted June 29 (edited) On 6/26/2024 at 10:42 PM, Silinsar.6298 said: Are you talking about PvP games? First thing that comes to mind are challenge runs for various RPGs (or other games) and I don't really think they have much to do with PvP dynamics. The concept remains the same. You learn what tools your opponent has and how to respond to them. On 6/26/2024 at 10:42 PM, Silinsar.6298 said: Though I wonder how you think those players manage to learn how to beat those challenges - surely not by doing the same thing over and over again. Picking up on what openings your opponent has, and how they're trying to exploit yours is a critical aspect of player skill. Good fights are a constant adaption to how your opponent plays, while they're doing the same. Nobody said that. They made mistakes and learned. The skillfull part of your describtion of combat adaptation is finding the openings without making mistakes that can be exploited yourself. If you need tankier builds to allow for more misplays its ok for the learning process but its less skillfull play. On 6/26/2024 at 10:42 PM, Silinsar.6298 said: How risky or hard something is to play depends on what you're fighting with which build. Lacking condi clear vs a condi-heavy build? Probably an uphill fight where you have to tread very carefully. Using those slots for abilities and traits that work better in a power vs. power duel? You might have an advantage there. Similar things with mobility and CC. There are builds that are better on average by having more good matchups (and some of them use cele). However, something that is "high risk" (with not enough payoff) vs. everything is just a bad build in the current meta. Sure, a player that decides to play such a build anyway and is successful with it is probably very good (we could also talk about the advantages of playing off meta, but this is already getting long), but you can't be angry about not everyone doing this. I mean you probably can, but you're not doing yourself or anyone else any favors by doing so. There'll always be meta builds offering good performance. And they'll be played a lot because that's what makes them meta. Some will play the meta specs well and some won't. And there'll always be some players challenging the meta successfully and unsuccessfully, eventually evolving it. I know it can suck to like playing a build that has more bad than good matchups, with a disadvantage against the meta ones that you'll rarely overcome with experience. Some builds might be too good in too many matchups (I'm not saying that balance is perfect). But the general assumptions of "uses cele => must be OP // I have problems vs this => must be cele" are just jumping to conclusions that usually lack reflection and substance. This seems to be a fundamental misunderstanding of the balance problem in this thread. Something is not balanced because it is just meta and everyone can play it. The problem is that cele gear enables builds that perform on a different level than most other builds and are forcing a meta with less skill based (and even more gear/build dependent) gameplay. The outcome of encounters is more and more decided before they started. I mean the ranger duel showcased it. Despite Trevors claims his build was not hard countered on a mechanical level. Zyreva had no reflects or even projectile hate, his dmg kit was mostly meele with average mobility at best and was kiteable. He had enough cleans to get rid of condis even after misplays. The thing that countered him was the sustain from cele gear and boons to the point that Zyreva just /sleeped mid fight against a player with 90% zerk gear. Edited June 29 by schloumou.3982 3 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorani.7205 Posted June 29 Share Posted June 29 Referring to this post from last year, my view on Celestial hasn't changed since then: 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keyokku.5412 Posted June 30 Share Posted June 30 I will just say we had more build diversity before and a lot of people didn't play sustain and specced into specific things, now it seems everyone is just an all rounded sponge and it's weird, I want more interesting match ups 5 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exzen.2976 Posted June 30 Share Posted June 30 (edited) Please anet, nerf cele in wvw. Its gone on too long now. I don't agree it should be removed, but it needs stat reductions. I had a conversation with someone yesterday who claimed cele is balanced because its vastly superior to all other stat combinations for solo/smallscale and that this is intended by the devs. I seriously hope not - you don't get "balance" by making one stat combo significantly better than all the others. But that does seem to be what you're doing. It feels like more than half of the players I encounter use this one single stat combination - no one plays Marshall stats for example and if you want to add a bit of extra survivability to a power build, throwing in some cele pieces is straight up better than taking any of the others, such as knights/cavaliers/commanders/crusaders etc. Why make most stat combinations obsolete? It was removed from sPvP for a reason and it's been an issue in wvw more or less since the unnecessarily buff to include expertise and concentration. Honestly, reverse this and you give players something to think about when build crafting - do they drop cele in order to add concentration and or expertise to the build? Etc. I get that people will then complain about trailblazer etc - but trailblazer was never as gross as cele is now. Just because people will complain about something else isn't a good reason not to balance something. Edited June 30 by Exzen.2976 5 1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hotride.2187 Posted June 30 Share Posted June 30 On 6/28/2024 at 3:46 PM, itsnotmattylol.8457 said: Because pvp is thriving! As annoying as it can be, take your pick....another dead mode or nah. Ah, wvw, such an active game mode. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gofriccurself.9037 Posted June 30 Share Posted June 30 1 hour ago, Hotride.2187 said: Ah, wvw, such an active game mode. It's almost like nothing they've done has helped either! Surely doing the same thing again will work! (For the sarcastically challenged this is aimed at anet.) 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zyreva.1078 Posted July 1 Share Posted July 1 (edited) The decline of spvp had little to nothing to do with the removal of stats including cele. And that was old cele, mind you (later even a nerfed version compared to what we had in WvW previous). What we have now in WvW never existed in sPvP and if they had brought that superbuffed cele version into spvp that gamemode surely would have died even faster, either because of the worst bunker meta in history (and there have been bad ones already) or because they competely gut all the classes to compensate for those op stats. And buffing cele certainly hasn't helped WvW either. Edited July 1 by Zyreva.1078 5 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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