PLEASE let the new PvP game mode be Guild vs. Guild

[Dean Calaway.9718]

6 minutes ago, Arnox.5128 said:

And I'd say this is semantics.

No, it isn't.

You can grab a top player from Black Desert Online, Eve Online or any number of MMOs, give them a brand new account, and it will take them months is not years of grinding until they can compete at top level with that new account.

That's a barrier of entry.

Guild Wars 2 doesn't have that, being steamrolled by a better player isn't a barrier of entry.

[Arnox.5128]

7 minutes ago, Dean Calaway.9718 said:

No, it isn't.

You can grab a top player from Black Desert Online, Eve Online or any number of MMOs, give them a brand new account, and it will take them months is not years of grinding until they can compete at top level with that new account.

That's a barrier of entry.

Guild Wars 2 doesn't have that, being steamrolled by a better player isn't a barrier of entry.

All the same, my original point still stands. Just because it's easy to pick up and play doesn't mean nothing else can make players think twice before playing the mode.

[Dean Calaway.9718]

3 hours ago, Arnox.5128 said:

Yeah, that's what you guys said about mounts too.

And the difference between Mounts and GvG is single player gameplay VS group gameplay.

It's never gonna be "done right" because it won't ever be popular, the majority of the GW2 player base doesn't interact much or at all with group play beyond world bosses and some WvW. 

I'm convinced the only reason Anet is bringing back Raids is to put an end to the memes and be able to put the word Raid in their advertisement, much like they've been doing with Fractal Dungeons, and not out of a genuine substantial player engagement with that content.

[Dean Calaway.9718]

7 minutes ago, Arnox.5128 said:

Just because it's easy to pick up and play doesn't mean nothing else can make players think twice before playing the mode.

And yet you think GvG, which would use PvE gear that needs grinding for and require massively more player coordination when compared to normal PvP, is still a good idea...

Make that make sense...

[Arnox.5128]

9 minutes ago, Dean Calaway.9718 said:

And the difference between Mounts and GvG is single player gameplay VS group gameplay.

No, you guys are (generally) just cynical as hell. The people in-game are mostly just chilling, but you guys seem to take offense at EVERY single change and addition proposed that would even slightly upset the current way of doing things. Open world duels? Too annoying. More sexy outfits? Not immersive! Less sexy outfits? Everyone looks boring! Guild vs. Guild? Nobody will play it! There's ALWAYS some BS problem. Nothing is ever right for you guys. I have seen spurious argument after spurious argument in countless threads arguing against so many different features that would have made the game great. I remember when people asked for an "Inspect cosmetics" feature (that we now have) and what was the terrible knock-on effect for that that everyone was dreading? Absolutely nothing. It was fine.

Again, that's because people in-game are "chilling". You guys on the forums generally don't have any chill. It's science.

5 minutes ago, Dean Calaway.9718 said:

And yet you think GvG, which would use PvE gear

Oh hell no. When did I say that?

Edited June 19 by Arnox.5128

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

27 minutes ago, Arnox.5128 said:

...

You guys have gotta be trolling me. That's what this is, right? If so, I admit it, you got me!

Naa, I wrote the truth.
Play gw1 gvg and realize how shallow gw2 gvg would be.

[Dean Calaway.9718]

12 minutes ago, Arnox.5128 said:

No, you guys are (generally) just cynical as hell.

One does what one can.

13 minutes ago, Arnox.5128 said:

you guys seem to take offense at EVERY single change and addition proposed that would even slightly upset the current way of doing things

Because we don't get enough of what works and we don't need more stuff that doesn't.

14 minutes ago, Arnox.5128 said:

Open world duels?

Go for it.

14 minutes ago, Arnox.5128 said:

More sexy outfits?

Yes please.

15 minutes ago, Arnox.5128 said:

Less sexy outfits? Everyone looks boring!

Pretty much.

15 minutes ago, Arnox.5128 said:

Guild vs. Guild? Nobody will play it!

Because PvP is a ghost town and as is you already have the ability to GvG and there just isn't that much interest, coming up with a whole game mode from a team than can't spit out 3 good maps a year with half a decent world boss at the end for $25 is, literally, too much to ask.

[Buran.3796]

On 6/18/2024 at 9:00 AM, DanAlcedo.3281 said:

Mhhh I have been fighting other guilds with my guild in Wvw for like 7-8 years. 

🤔

 

  Yeah, how much scrims a day you play gainst other guilds, buddy?  Because I have only 10k matches at PvP and I would call it a "moderate" amount. A PvP game mode won't survive if is only played some evening in the weekends...

[Arnox.5128]

1 hour ago, Dean Calaway.9718 said:

Because we don't get enough of what works

ANet's backlog is another problem entirely. Not related to GvG.

1 hour ago, Dean Calaway.9718 said:

Because PvP is a ghost town

And I already talked about why that is.

1 hour ago, Dean Calaway.9718 said:

you already have the ability to GvG

No we don't. Not like GW1.

1 hour ago, Dean Calaway.9718 said:

coming up with a whole game mode from a team than can't spit out 3 good maps a year with half a decent world boss at the end for $25 is, literally, too much to ask.

That's what you guys said about End of Dragons, but we actually got one of the best stories in the Guild Wars franchise. (Or at least, I liked it anyway.) I'm not saying that ANet has a sterling track record, but still, anything is possible.

[Gotejjeken.1267]

ATs are essentially guild vs guild, no?

They could add leaderboards for those, or at least let us know who won the last ones and have better spectator mode, etc.  If they can't fix the AT interface to work with GvG then there's no chance a new mode will do this.  

[DeathPanel.8362]

7 hours ago, Arnox.5128 said:

We've already discussed why that is. Also, who said the number is still going down? Not that it matters considering the very sorry state of sPvP, but what is your proof there?

Admittedly, ANet is probably gonna have to clean up its act first in regards to the PvP portion as well. Namely, cleaning up all the bots and rampant cheating at very least. But this would be true regardless of what the new game mode will be.

wut? Yes, it very much did. Have you even touched GW1?

Doesn't matter. GvG is a long-form objective-based game mode with 8v8 instead of the usual 5v5. It's not anything super exotic, even if it is pretty different from the usual sPvP affair. I can't think of any specific mechanics in GW2 that would inhibit this game mode from being successful. In fact, I might even argue that balancing GvG would be HARDER in GW1 due to all the skills in the game plus fully customizable stats.

Because the game is almost 20 years old and not really supported anymore. Most of all though, I simply want to play GvG with GW2 mechanics. And I want to use my pimp-looking Fashion Wars 2 characters. Gotta keep up appearances, you know.

You're asking for an offshoot of an already marginal game mode in a 12+ year-old game which would be even more restrictive in entry than the standard pvp queue that already takes a very long time to queue for as is.  

The bottom line is however you try to justify that to yourself, it's simply not feasible for GW2.  Even if somehow it could be feasible, there are far better places for ANET to spend their time and resources than to cater to a tiny portion of the player base.

You keep saying "If you build it they will come".  I say instead of putting resources on phantom players that may or may not come it's better to spend resources to cater to the current players who play GW2.  They overwhelmingly prefer PVE/WvW, not GvG or PvP.

[Arnox.5128]

1 hour ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

ATs are essentially guild vs guild, no?

They are not. ATs are Conquest. Everything Conquest.

29 minutes ago, DeathPanel.8362 said:

an offshoot of an already marginal game mode

I'm asking them to take GvG as it was in GW1 and put it almost straight into GW2. I'm sure a few things may need tweaking here and there, but it should otherwise be a very straightforward port, then Guild Wars 2 won't be fake news.

29 minutes ago, DeathPanel.8362 said:

that already takes a very long time to queue for as is.  

Which is ANet's fault directly.

29 minutes ago, DeathPanel.8362 said:

it's simply not feasible for GW2. 

"There's no market for it."

29 minutes ago, DeathPanel.8362 said:

there are far better places for ANET to spend their time and resources

Oh, like PvE? Yeah, we NEVERRRRRRR get updates for PvE. Never EVER. What ever shall you all do without your 212,931st PvE update? D:

29 minutes ago, DeathPanel.8362 said:

Even if somehow it could be feasible, there are far better places for ANET to spend their time and resources than to cater to a tiny portion of the player base.

"I don't like it so it must be tiny and insignificant, and sPvP is stagnating not because it's been rotting for years with sheer neglect from ANet but because PvP is clearly a niche indie mode nobody cares about."

DOTA2, as a very loose example, has over 290 THOUSAND players. Right now. Do you really think that Guild Wars 1 would have survived WoW's onslaught if nobody liked GvG? Far more funded studios than ANet have tried to topple WoW and ALMOST ALL of them failed. You are beyond clueless and absurdly cynical.

Edited June 20 by Arnox.5128

[Arnox.5128]

Just did a very quick survey in-game. I did my best to explicitly look for and ask people who had some kind of league badge in their name. The question was, "Would you like Guild vs. Guild as it was in GW1 to be put into GW2? (Assume there are no cheaters or bots.)" And of the 12 people in total I asked,

10 people wanted it unequivocally.

0 people said they didn't want it at all.

2 people were hesitant about it and said maybe.

Of those 2 maybes, one said they absolutely did love GvG and wanted it back, but they didn't personally have faith in the WvW community's attention span.

Edited June 20 by Arnox.5128

[DeathPanel.8362]

2 hours ago, Arnox.5128 said:

Oh, like PvE? Yeah, we NEVERRRRRRR get updates for PvE. Never EVER. What ever shall you all do without your 212,931st PvE update? D:

PVE is GW2's core game, with WvW on the side for mass battles.  PvP has always been a marginal mode, GvG even more so if they were ever to implement it.

I'd rather have 200,000 more pve updates before a single GvG update. 

Again, you can justify it to yourself all you want.  It's not going to happen because most players don't want it and there's no money in it for ANET.

[Arnox.5128]

53 minutes ago, DeathPanel.8362 said:

PvP has always been a marginal mode

Never had to be.

53 minutes ago, DeathPanel.8362 said:

most players don't want it

k.

1 hour ago, Arnox.5128 said:

And of the 12 people in total I asked, 10 people wanted it unequivocally.

-

(Technically 11 people if you count one of the maybes.)

Edited June 20 by Arnox.5128

[DeathPanel.8362]

10 hours ago, Arnox.5128 said:

Never had to be.

k.

-

(Technically 11 people if you count one of the maybes.)

ANET put more resources into game modes that were more popular.  If PvP was more popular than PVE and WvW, ANET would've put more resources into it.  It's survival of the fittest for game modes and your game mode didn't win out.  What you're really saying is you want ANET to subsidize a game mode that's less liked at the expense of more popular game modes to cater to your sensibilities.  It simply won't happen.

[Flowki.7194]

On 6/20/2024 at 5:52 PM, DeathPanel.8362 said:

ANET put more resources into game modes that were more popular.  If PvP was more popular than PVE and WvW, ANET would've put more resources into it.  It's survival of the fittest for game modes and your game mode didn't win out.  What you're really saying is you want ANET to subsidize a game mode that's less liked at the expense of more popular game modes to cater to your sensibilities.  It simply won't happen.

That is a very shallow take on things. It is far easier to balance games around pve becuase mobs don't complain X spec is OP. The only consistant complaint I have ever seen across many MMO from pve players is "my specs dps is too low".. They wouldn't even know that if people didn't nerd out on DPS counters, compiling their entire gamers worth into whos button smash did the most damage to a coded boss, while ignoring the fact it was a guild first.

 

Pvp is harder to balance for obvious reasons, it is very evident if a spec is OP/toxic to fight, and it is not just about dps, it can be about CC spam, sustain, healing spam, a whole boat load of reasons not reflected in pve. For that reason, some level of continuity is also required in PVP content, you can't just introduce new content after new content becuase the map/mode environment may favour X specs way more than Y specs, to the point entire games are decided on spec choice alone, not skill.

 

Becuase of such difficulties, it is easier for companies to focus on pve, and making pve players happy, which is ofc why 99% of MMOs lead advertisement campaigns of new pve expantions, which are easier to get right. In turn, PVP modes recieve less attention despite the fact their would be a very healthy pvp playerbase should a company get it right. Some companies do a better job at it, but in almost all games I have played, they lean more into PVE retaining more of such players, creating an echo chamber which is mostly being reflected in this topic.

 

With a healthy pvp playerbase (fps can be used for this example), multiple game modes are popular, some more than others sure.. but its like dungoens and raids +premade or pickup in mmo pve.

 

Here is a fun fact though, if you look carefully, you will see that all pve players are just closet pvpers. They will compete over DPS meters, over clan firsts, fastest clears, rare weapon/sets, fasion, or w/e.

Edited June 22 by Flowki.7194

[WhoWantsAHug.3186]

I think it would be cool if there was a 5v5 mini season where only 1 expacs elites were available. Like there would be a core only season, HoT only season etc. This would be super refreshing and have a rotating meta game

[Flowki.7194]

27 minutes ago, WhoWantsAHug.3186 said:

I think it would be cool if there was a 5v5 mini season where only 1 expacs elites were available. Like there would be a core only season, HoT only season etc. This would be super refreshing and have a rotating meta game

Yeah thats a really good idea

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

To give some context to everyone about this topic : GW1 GvG was a game mode where the main objective was to defeat the others guild lord. Additionally there was an optional (but in many cases necessary) job of flag running which would provide morale boosts to the team, which you needed if you had a wipes, because each death gives player a morale penalty.

The design and the maps were usually somewhat complex, and in this way you could never usually just rush an enemy guild lord in a single go. The tactics were similar to war: each fight you win you push into the enemies territory a bit deeper…which also meant that same enemy had a) higher priority to flag run and b) closer response time to the fight, culminating in the final battle in the end in the guild lords room.

additionally, the design of the game mode encouraged commonly splitting groups, to protect flag runners, or counter pushing into enemy territory…5 v 3 v 1 splits were common. The combination of the above often meant players were constantly shifting in splits…to secure flags, push into territory or defending against getting pushed.

Next to late stage Hall of Heroes, it was really top tier PvPing. You could also, back in Gw1 observe guilds fighting and they were just straight up fun to watch. I agree with OP, that this game should have had a GvG mode…maybe it’s not too late but idk maybe it is. It’s kinda depressing to think about what anet could or should have done…so you know….

I think the particular player count doesn’t matter much imo, I think what made gvg a good mode was the ruleset that encouraged (to the point of necessity) players to split up, engaging in complex decision making. Current PvP has elements of this splitting (it’s not optimal to zerg around in 3 way capture) and I think the same would apply even in a 15v15 mode so long as the objectives necessarily impose onto the game, for players to split the group. If you think about Alterac Valley, it is something similar except, except lord rushing was not a viable strategy in gw1 (which therefor made it better) if I remember correctly… it’s been a long time but ya… pretty sure people didn’t (or couldn’t) avoid fighting each other to just rush lords in gvg.

If anyone does remember they can correct me there if I am wrong

[DeathPanel.8362]

6 hours ago, Flowki.7194 said:

That is a very shallow take on things. It is far easier to balance games around pve becuase mobs don't complain X spec is OP. The only consistant complaint I have ever seen across many MMO from pve players is "my specs dps is too low".. They wouldn't even know that if people didn't nerd out on DPS counters, compiling their entire gamers worth into whos button smash did the most damage to a coded boss, while ignoring the fact it was a guild first.

 

Pvp is harder to balance for obvious reasons, it is very evident if a spec is OP/toxic to fight, and it is not just about dps, it can be about CC spam, sustain, healing spam, a whole boat load of reasons not reflected in pve. For that reason, some level of continuity is also required in PVP content, you can't just introduce new content after new content becuase the map/mode environment may favour X specs way more than Y specs, to the point entire games are decided on spec choice alone, not skill.

 

Becuase of such difficulties, it is easier for companies to focus on pve, and making pve players happy, which is ofc why 99% of MMOs lead advertisement campaigns of new pve expantions, which are easier to get right. In turn, PVP modes recieve less attention despite the fact their would be a very healthy pvp playerbase should a company get it right. Some companies do a better job at it, but in almost all games I have played, they lean more into PVE retaining more of such players, creating an echo chamber which is mostly being reflected in this topic.

 

With a healthy pvp playerbase (fps can be used for this example), multiple game modes are popular, some more than others sure.. but its like dungoens and raids +premade or pickup in mmo pve.

 

Here is a fun fact though, if you look carefully, you will see that all pve players are just closet pvpers. They will compete over DPS meters, over clan firsts, fastest clears, rare weapon/sets, fasion, or w/e.

Sounds to me like you just outlined in detail exactly why ANET doesn't put more resources into PVP.  

Using DPS meters doesn't make you a "closet pvper".  If anything, that makes you a very hardcore PVER.  PvP isn't about DPS.  It's about sustain, utility, and mobility.

[Saiyan.1704]

5 hours ago, WhoWantsAHug.3186 said:

I think it would be cool if there was a 5v5 mini season where only 1 expacs elites were available. Like there would be a core only season, HoT only season etc. This would be super refreshing and have a rotating meta game

On that note, idk why we don't have like... 10 different mini season game modes.
- Make an FFA oddball game with special rules when you have the ball. Slow AF, can't use stealth, skills cast will drop the ball, etc.
- FFA King of the Hill with 5 mini conquest nodes on the map
- King of the Hill, 1v1 Dueling mode in the style of AT. Queue up as you would amongst 9 other players, they 1v1 each other one after the other.
- FootLocker, Everyone is DH Guard. You only have Banish. No other virtue or utility abilities. You're on a small platform and have to knock people off.
etc etc.

[Arnox.5128]

4 hours ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

5 v 3 v 1 splits

I think you might have made a minor typo. Only 8 players per team would compete in GvG. Perhaps you mean 4-3-1? Or 5-2-1?

  

Just now, Saiyan.1704 said:

On that note, idk why we don't have like... 10 different mini season game modes.

I don't know why we don't have a lot of things, man...

Edited June 23 by Arnox.5128

[Luthan.5236]

Won't happen. Maybe they allow for grouping with a full team not just 1-2 queue (or to use int in "custom" arenas) so guilds can organize their own matches. But this still is a new mode within PvP.  GvG ... I doubt they would have hidden that ... if it were something like that. Would be more like a side-thing to PvP where this was an own game-mode using the PvP mechanics.

Would make sense to allow for some kind of special leaderboards and allow premade-teams to queue. To rank guilds. (Allowing for the conquest mode to use this as well.)

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

On 6/22/2024 at 11:20 PM, Arnox.5128 said:

I think you might have made a minor typo. Only 8 players per team would compete in GvG. Perhaps you mean 4-3-1? Or 5-2-1?

Ya, typo. probably meant 4 - 3 - 1, but also sometimes 4 - 4, 5 - 3 and 7 - 1 splits were common.