Revenant Spear Needs Fixing

[Malus.2184]

13 hours ago, Yasai.3549 said:

Even if the animations are fixed, the darn thing deals only Torment, unless their vision for balancing Revenant's Condi side has always been to be a mixture of heavy direct damage with ramping Condi on the side, which will mainly be Torment.

Even if it's with a heavy component of direct damage it would still be inferior since just ONE cleanse can remove the condition part of the total damage. You can use Short Bow for the same effect and due to it inflicting multiple condis one cleanse is unable to screw you over. Or you can go for full power damage in the Greatsword and then condi cleanse is utterly useless.

Edited Tuesday at 12:54 PM by Malus.2184

[UncreativeGreen.2019]

6 hours ago, Drarnor Kunoram.5180 said:

Didn't they make it so speed modifiers didn't apply during movement skills, like, 8 years ago?

You know what, now that you mention it I do remember that patch. But I thought It was always about Quickness and Slow effecting the animation durations. Like a channeled block or channeled movement skills (I do remember how funny it was to spam slow in downstate on someone trying to flag you and they would take a year and a half to finish the animation xD). For Some reason I thought that applying swiftness and superspeed affected the distance still ... or at least on a few skills that had snuck through the gaps of that patch. But after testing the skills I had thought were effected by it, I can clearly state that I was crazy or just mis-remembering things, thanks.

As far as the mines go... IDK. Chalk it up to good ole Anet spaghetti code I guess. Once Beta is live I'm sure we'll figure out a pattern to what causes 3 mines and what causes 4 (or more)

[vrauns.3215]

13 hours ago, arazoth.7290 said:

I beta tested it in my head multipble times, rev spear underperformed

testing in your head don't give anet info, sorry to break it to you.

[vrauns.3215]

14 hours ago, Ravenwulfe.5360 said:

Unfortunately, we also have eyeballs and were watching what they demonstrated. There will definitely be outcries.

ok and they will see it, they did it with most weapons last time, changed things after the beta, we shall see.

[Tobias.4975]

20 minutes ago, vrauns.3215 said:

ok and they will see it, they did it with most weapons last time, changed things after the beta, we shall see.

hopefully this time they look into the forum, not like with the scepter...

[arazoth.7290]

2 hours ago, vrauns.3215 said:

testing in your head don't give anet info, sorry to break it to you.

With little bit thinking you know it will

[Ravenwulfe.5360]

4 hours ago, vrauns.3215 said:

ok and they will see it, they did it with most weapons last time, changed things after the beta, we shall see.

Considering how the engineer shortbow and revenant scepter went I am not holding my breath. It's also disappointing when despite player feedback and data the devs will dismiss it with the "we are satisfied where it is at" comments.

[SWLDguitar.5746]

1 hour ago, Ravenwulfe.5360 said:

 despite player feedback and data the devs will dismiss it with the "we are satisfied where it is at" comments.

Be prepared.  This is going to happen 100%.

1000s of Revenants "We don't like this, this doesn't work"

The 15 Anet Employees who worked on this project "We worked REALLY hard on this, for like... a week, we're satisfied with our work and will go on a year hiatus now"

Edited Tuesday at 07:26 PM by SWLDguitar.5746

[Flowki.7194]

On 6/21/2024 at 10:33 PM, Shagie.7612 said:

Maybe? But with no projectile denial, no defensive capabilities like blinds, blocks/aegis, or cleanses, one very small dash, and 900 range at best, you'll just die if you play spear/shortbow to both range and any decently mobile melee.

Which is exactly what happens if you try to play condi dps currently in any competitive mode. Especially condi ren. That's WITH shield or staff, too.

Core condi rev is nowhere near as bad as people think. Im not sure on this weapon, not seen it, but I will try it in place of mace/shield, as more of a kiting spec. Cent dome is exellent projectile cover+bait while using shortbow, ancient echo can refresh for stab-explode+chance of CC if they take the bait and swap to melee/gap close, allowing you to kite out with this dash, and anguish, they have a melee weapon, you still have a ranged. It could work, but the likes of WB will be more tricky. Its just a shame banish is so costly for stripping resolotion.

Edited Tuesday at 09:04 PM by Flowki.7194

[draxynnic.3719]

On 6/24/2024 at 7:41 PM, Malus.2184 said:

Again, hypothetically that's possible and practically if you're running Herald you're running Quickness and doing so can seriously hinder your Quickness uptime depending on timing, 

Only if you've blown enough of your other Glint upkeep skills that you can't get to 6 pips without Facet of Chaos, and you don't have legend swap available, and you've somehow failed to build up enough of a reserve of Quickness to last until one of the first two criteria changes despite herald's extremely generous amount of quickness application. The overwhelming majority of the time that's not going to be a big deal unless, maybe, you're also providing stability and all your energy on Jalis is going to road instead of hammers. 

On 6/24/2024 at 11:05 PM, Ravenwulfe.5360 said:

To be honest, and ironically, vindicator is going to probably suffer the most with this weapon since leaps are part of their damage combos. It potentially means that a lot of attacks from the spear get interrupted by just playing the class. It's really a shame and just, to be blunt, asinine design to hold back a weapons potential based on a what if scenario with one spec that is pretty much the back of the pack in the DPS food chain with revenants. So if this is why they decided to make it so slow, just another sign ANet really doesn't pay attention to this class much anymore.

Oh, man, I didn't even think about that...

Mind you, I don't think ArenaNet did either. While celestial vindicator is a thing in open world, I don't think ArenaNet has ever really thought of vindicator as something that could be using a condi build, so they probably just didn't think of vindicator when making spear. Which is extra ironic since spear absolutely should be Archemorus' weapon.

On 6/25/2024 at 12:45 AM, Vekaiel.8493 said:

Looking at the name of the skills it just scream to me the shadow army and Menzies lord of destruction and Balthazar half brother. We did not see yet what is going to happen in Janthir yet. We saw some titans so old prophecy enemies (I know they come from realm of torment but maybe we have to go in fissure of woe at some point). Revenant could have chanelled that style of battle from exposure to the fissure of woe in dragonfall. A bit like how we got to use Palawa Joko power for a moment while escaping prison and rescuing the spearmarshal.

Scepter was just weird, there is nothing Kryptis about it and a trash weapon in this state.

While possible, I don't recall the Shadow Army actually using darkness-oriented abilities even in Dragonfall. So unless it turns out to be channelling Menzies directly, that doesn't really fit. Meanwhile, a fiery theme could work for both Archemorus and Shadow Elementals.

On 6/25/2024 at 10:42 AM, Shagie.7612 said:

I know a lot of classes currently see their spear kit as underwhelming but Rev's definitely seems the most problematic and just bumping up its numbers can only mask that problem so much.

Honestly, it's the one weapon that I'm looking at and thinking that I have absolutely no interest in even trying.

There are a couple of spears I dislike on a "this is not what the profession really needs right now" level, but revenant spear is the only one I'm looking at and thinking "even if you ignored everything else going on with the profession and focused on the weapon itself, this just looks bad.

[Malus.2184]

3 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Only if you've blown enough of your other Glint upkeep skills that you can't get to 6 pips without Facet of Chaos, and you don't have legend swap available, and you've somehow failed to build up enough of a reserve of Quickness to last until one of the first two criteria changes despite herald's extremely generous amount of quickness application. The overwhelming majority of the time that's not going to be a big deal unless, maybe, you're also providing stability and all your energy on Jalis is going to road instead of hammers. 

The rotation encourages you to use them though. No game mechanic should ever punish another game mechanic.

The context here is important. You can turn off Jalis' Hammers when needed and turn them on as well. Once the facets are activated you can only use them and then they go on CD. Using the Road in addition to Hammers is something you can control. The Facets are either/or.

[Katary.7096]

On 6/24/2024 at 3:41 PM, SWLDguitar.5746 said:

I'm still stuck on the mines.  They are NAVAL MINES, too, which belong in water.  What do MINES have to do with Revenants?  What do MINES have to do with the Mists? What do MINES have to do with a Spear?  Are the MINES going to do siege damage? - If not why are they MINES!?!?!?!?

Almost all of the skill names for Rev spear are "Abyssal something". I venture to guess some dev thought that means oceanic abyss and that's how they got to the naval mines.

[Elric.4713]

2 hours ago, Katary.7096 said:

Almost all of the skill names for Rev spear are "Abyssal something". I venture to guess some dev thought that means oceanic abyss and that's how they got to the naval mines.

I see no problem with the mines, they're floating condensed mist energy, but I do agree the skill naming could use some work as basically they slapped "Abyssal" to everything and called it a day.

[arazoth.7290]

7 minutes ago, Elric.4713 said:

I see no problem with the mines, they're floating condensed mist energy, but I do agree the skill naming could use some work as basically they slapped "Abyssal" to everything and called it a day.

It would be cool if we could make them travel high speed to the enemy as a 2nd ability. More option how to use it

[SWLDguitar.5746]

3 hours ago, Elric.4713 said:

I see no problem with the mines, they're floating condensed mist energy, but I do agree the skill naming could use some work as basically they slapped "Abyssal" to everything and called it a day.

You don't see a problem with this? WoW Spores vs GW2 Mines  I bet if i looked hard enough (not about to put that work in, it definitely exists) i could find a Venthyr ability that looks JUST like these "mines."

Mist energy would be mostly greyish with some red, not black. Proof, mists are grey  See swords.

 

 It's a ripoff, it doesn't make sense, it goes against profession identity, it's CRAP! 

Edited Wednesday at 08:28 PM by SWLDguitar.5746

[Buran.3796]

   The class doesn't really have other role to fill; we already had weapons enough and was more about making the ones at our disposal better at their task. The only reason to add new weapons would be to sell the expansions, but that ain't to happen  if most of the new ones are crap, specially in competitive game modes.

   I don't care about Anet taking inspiration from other games, as long as they are good. Blizzard didn't release anything good in the last decade; if you want to mirror some skills better to take a look at BDO or Lost Ark than from WoW...

[Flowki.7194]

Ive looked at the weapon skill and on paper wtf even is this? What a backwards weapon

 

Tourment on anquish, ok fine, overlook the fact its going to get cleansed.. and punishes you for being at range?

 

Rapid assault, pushing you into melee range to gain vuln buff to make use of that godly condi, It also has high power co and 0 condi.

 

Mines, the only defense on the weapon, a long way of applying poison, and again no substantial condi dmg.

 

Ignite, condi at range, despite all major dmg forcing melee range, and a higher power co TP? Again, everything is forcing close range, and is higher in power. Why have they even added condi on anguish at this point?

 

Rift contain, hah.. this is just looking like a hammer gaurdian+tps incarnated into 1 weapon, with a bizare tourment to remind us its still rev, I guess?

 

Scepter has 0 condi and is a fail power/support weapon. This new weapon at-least looks better than that for power, but again fk all for condi specs? Can they at-least add condi to scepter so support/condi specs have something new???

Edited Wednesday at 09:15 PM by Flowki.7194

[SWLDguitar.5746]

4 minutes ago, Buran.3796 said:

   I don't care about Anet taking inspiration from other games, as long as they are good. Blizzard didn't release anything good in the last decade; if you want to mirror some skills better to take a look at BDO or Lost Ark than from WoW...

What are you talking about?????? Legion was released in 2016, and it's fair to say it's Blizzards 2nd best WoW expansion.  Being a hater of the game doesn't negate the games overall success, even in the last decade. 

If you're going to cite Asian-based games at least cite from the pool under the same umbrella corporation, NCSoft - Aion, Lineage, Blade and Soul, Throne and Liberty.   They have plenty of inspiration under their own umbrella, and don't need to pull from overly-flashy games like BDO and Lost Ark. 

GW2 has it's own unique art style and should not require them to rip off anyone...

[Buran.3796]

12 minutes ago, SWLDguitar.5746 said:

What are you talking about?????? Legion was released in 2016, and it's fair to say it's Blizzards 2nd best WoW expansion.  Being a hater of the game doesn't negate the games overall success, even in the last decade. 

   Success (popularity/profitability) isn't the only bar to judge things, otherwise Candy Crush would be the most memorable franchise of the entire Activision Blizzard catalogue.

   I used to play all old Blizzard franchises; didn't spent a dime in a game of them since Overwatch, more than 8 years ago. There's 0 things from WoW I would enjoy nor would like to see in this game.

[Ravenwulfe.5360]

50 minutes ago, Buran.3796 said:

   Success (popularity/profitability) isn't the only bar to judge things, otherwise Candy Crush would be the most memorable franchise of the entire Activision Blizzard catalogue.

   I used to play all old Blizzard franchises; didn't spent a dime in a game of them since Overwatch, more than 8 years ago. There's 0 things from WoW I would enjoy nor would like to see in this game.

That may be in your opinion but trying to use BDO or Lost Ark of all games as your bar is pretty much digging under the floor at this point.

Edited Wednesday at 10:40 PM by Ravenwulfe.5360

[Vennyhedgie.5369]

2 hours ago, SWLDguitar.5746 said:

You don't see a problem with this? WoW Spores vs GW2 Mines  I bet if i looked hard enough (not about to put that work in, it definitely exists) i could find a Venthyr ability that looks JUST like these "mines."

Mist energy would be mostly greyish with some red, not black. Proof, mists are grey  See swords.

 

 It's a ripoff, it doesn't make sense, it goes against profession identity, it's CRAP! 

If anything, the mines look like FF14's Dark Knight's Abyssal drain: https://i.ytimg.com/vi/D_Q0EwVLS5A/hqdefault.jpg

Honestly the entire kit's effects scream Dark Knight to me, which is honestly fine for revenants since they do have a bit of that vibe, and there's a market for edgy characters. Though I wish it kinda swapped kits with greatsword in that sense.

[Ravenwulfe.5360]

2 hours ago, Vennyhedgie.5369 said:

If anything, the mines look like FF14's Dark Knight's Abyssal drain: https://i.ytimg.com/vi/D_Q0EwVLS5A/hqdefault.jpg

Honestly the entire kit's effects scream Dark Knight to me, which is honestly fine for revenants since they do have a bit of that vibe, and there's a market for edgy characters. Though I wish it kinda swapped kits with greatsword in that sense.

I don't really agree with it since they are mistwalkers. Dark knights are just death knights with a less edgey name in the end. Revenants call on the spirits to give them powers and skills they wouldn't normally have. Mist effects also have a clear and defined appearance as well.

Edited Thursday at 01:17 AM by Ravenwulfe.5360

[draxynnic.3719]

22 hours ago, Malus.2184 said:

The rotation encourages you to use them though. No game mechanic should ever punish another game mechanic.

The context here is important. You can turn off Jalis' Hammers when needed and turn them on as well. Once the facets are activated you can only use them and then they go on CD. Using the Road in addition to Hammers is something you can control. The Facets are either/or.

You don't need to follow a rotation blindly - in fact, you're supposed to be willing to adjust your skill use to the circumstances rather than mindlessly following a golem rotation no matter what. You can run some combination of Nature, Elements and/or Strength for a little longer rather than double-tapping them. You'll probably lose less DPS than you would by swapping to staff for the breakbar. And even if you don't have them available, it's only likely to be a few seconds before you can swap anyway, and quickrev durations are so overtuned that you're usually at the full 30s buffer fairly early on in the encounter.

"I have the CC available, but I don't want to use it because it disrupts my rotation" is a VERY different situation to not having it at all.

8 hours ago, Vennyhedgie.5369 said:

If anything, the mines look like FF14's Dark Knight's Abyssal drain: https://i.ytimg.com/vi/D_Q0EwVLS5A/hqdefault.jpg

Honestly the entire kit's effects scream Dark Knight to me, which is honestly fine for revenants since they do have a bit of that vibe, and there's a market for edgy characters. Though I wish it kinda swapped kits with greatsword in that sense.

As @Ravenwulfe.5360 has been saying, though, this really isn't what rev was presented as originally. To make a Final Fantasy comparison, the theme is more of a melee-oriented blue mage in that the revenant is claiming the powers of others. Dark knight, by contrast, is more of a necromancer thing. Now, the list of legends they can channel is naturally going to include a few "darker" ones such as Mallyx, but I for one do not approve of rev being made more dark knight-ish, especially if it's purely for the sake of "a market for edgy characters".

[Malus.2184]

9 minutes ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

You don't need to follow a rotation blindly - in fact, you're supposed to be willing to adjust your skill use to the circumstances rather than mindlessly following a golem rotation no matter what. You can run some combination of Nature, Elements and/or Strength for a little longer rather than double-tapping them. You'll probably lose less DPS than you would by swapping to staff for the breakbar. And even if you don't have them available, it's only likely to be a few seconds before you can swap anyway, and quickrev durations are so overtuned that you're usually at the full 30s buffer fairly early on in the encounter.

Except you do when the encounter's HP difficulty vs the maximum possible performance is high.

If you ever designed an encounter for a TTRPG you know that the encounter can never ask for more than the players are capable of doing if it's to be defeatable. You only have room to improvise and adapt when the difficulty is low and the higher it becomes the more you have to optimise to be able to beat the difficulty.

Encounter design will NEVER be able to fix an issue caused by GAMEPLAY mechanics and you are as naive as TeaPot and Sneb if you think so.

[draxynnic.3719]

41 minutes ago, Malus.2184 said:

Except you do when the encounter's HP difficulty vs the maximum possible performance is high.

If you ever designed an encounter for a TTRPG you know that the encounter can never ask for more than the players are capable of doing if it's to be defeatable. You only have room to improvise and adapt when the difficulty is low and the higher it becomes the more you have to optimise to be able to beat the difficulty.

Encounter design will NEVER be able to fix an issue caused by GAMEPLAY mechanics and you are as naive as TeaPot and Sneb if you think so.

Holding a facet for a couple of seconds longer to compensate for using a CC to break a bar when needed is probably more likely to speed up your run, due to the increased damage your whole team does to a recently broken enemy if nothing else. Allowing your quickness buffer to drop from 30 seconds to 25 is probably not going to affect your performance at all, but getting that breakbar broken faster probably will.

Sometimes, the optimal way to handle the encounter in front of you is to use the skills in a different fashion to how you'd use them when beating down a golem.

PS Were you in Snowcrows' HTCM or CerusCM world first group? Because if you're not in a guild that competes with Hardstuck for world firsts, I don't think you're in much of a position to throw shade at Teapot.

Edited Thursday at 08:47 AM by draxynnic.3719