Spiders Lair Meta

[witchyivy.7980]

Are there any NA groups that occasionally run this and are successful? Since the meta’s release, I’ve done this four or five times, all of which failed. Closest attempt ended at 16%. I’m doing everything in my power to help this succeed—using correct buff/attunement, waypointing and flying back when I need to and/or setting and using a personal waypoint, using the fountains, and focusing rifts and mobs. Am I just unlucky, or is there something else I can do to help this succeed? I’ve been playing my raid power dps Soulbeast with a couple tweaks for improved survivability.

I want to be a part of a successful meta at least once.

[Randulf.7614]

Not if you're doing all that. The key is rift management, not afking on the floor if dead and not losing focus by shouting at those afking on the floor when dead. Not much more you personally can do when you are relying on 50-60+ other players working as a team

It'll get nerfed eventually because it can't sustain itself in its current form into a new expansion. It's more when than if. I'm on 50% success after 15 or so runs and most of the wins came early on. Now it's just a mess and a lot of time wasted, so I'm waiting for the inevitable change until I do it again. Even if it is is forcing the dead to waypoint rather than the more likely boss/rift spawn nerf, something will change

[DanAlcedo.3281]

It's understandable that it fails often. 

Given his health, all 50 people need to do a minimum dps of 8.4k each to kill the boss in time. 

Which I way to high for the average Openworld player. 

 

[Willow.7210]

It's easily one of the worst meta's I've seen simply because it isn't enjoyable at all.  I don't mind difficult content that takes awhile to learn, but I at least want to be enjoying the process and this is just a chaotic mess that is a chore I would rather avoid.  I hope Janthir takes us in an entirely different direction.  SoTo felt like it was off the rails for story, maps, and overall was a slog and not fun or memorable like PoT and Season 4 were.  

[Vayne.8563]

Tried it six times now and beaten it all six times. I look for organized groups though, I don't just randomly show up and start doing it if the commander doesn't seem to have an idea of what's going on. I experience the same thing in Dragon's End which is actually harder than the new meta. But if people buff up, getting their jade buffs, and taking food, and the commander is making subgroups or at the very least a subgroup with enough people in it to handle the rifts, it usually succeeds.

I see a disorganized group starting and I head for higher ground. 

[Firebeard.1746]

On 6/27/2024 at 7:06 AM, Vayne.8563 said:

I see a disorganized group starting and I head for higher ground. 

Ah yes. People started playing this game because they want to organize 50 man raids in the open world., The open world isn't for casual fun with other people. This isn't supposed to be the anti-MMO. Events like this would be semi-redeemable if they were a lot shorter. But making people do 2 sub metas, then complete and almost hour-long post meta with tons of mechanics that apparently you have to organize is just griefing your players and literally goes against everything this game I thought was supposed to be. I initially started playing this game because dragonfall felt like an actual raid without all the BS that a normal MMO thows at you. The only reason I'm not boiling with rage is I guess it doesn't actually hold your legendary progress back? This looks like one of those things that people do once for the achieves/map completion and then never again. 

Edited August 14 by Firebeard.1746

[Cyninja.2954]

1 hour ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

Ah yes. People started playing this game because they want to organize 50 man raids in the open world., The open world isn't for casual fun with other people. This isn't supposed to be the anti-MMO. Events like this would be semi-redeemable if they were a lot shorter. But making people do 2 sub metas, then complete and almost hour-long post meta with tons of mechanics that apparently you have to organize is just griefing your players and literally goes against everything this game I thought was supposed to be. I initially started playing this game because dragonfall felt like an actual raid without all the BS that a normal MMO thows at you. The only reason I'm not boiling with rage is I guess it doesn't actually hold your legendary progress back? This looks like one of those things that people do once for the achieves/map completion and then never again. 

This is what (slightly) more challenging content without regulation looks like.

The developers are LITERALLY reacting to players complaining about how instanced content is being "gated" and how all content should be available to everyone. THAT's what these metas are supposed to accomplish. Similar to public convergences which are meant to circumvent the group creation aspect and allow everyone easy access (well that and share enough resources to allow for traditional instanced content to actually be developed).

THIS is what people complaining about access to certain type of content were essentially asking for: no restrictions in access.

So where did this go wrong? Was it really access players are worried about?

1. access does not mean success, something a lot of players seem to forget

2. asking for access to certain content but not wanting the difficulty tied to that content just means wanting the loot for less effort

3. having no way to filter or influence who you do certain content with will lead to wild fluctuations on how the group performs

Funny how that works out huh?

Some of the forum crowd got EXACTLY what they asked for, except what they wished for was actually loot, and not access. So I guess in a way, they did not get what they wanted because they've been barking up the wrong tree for years.

Tl;DR:

You don't get to complain about instanced content and gating because you wanted to "play" that content, then in the next moment complain about lack of gating when the content suddenly is "to hard" and failure actually might occur.

Well you do get to complain, but that is then obviously just about not getting the loot you want at zero effort.

EDIT:

and just to be clear: I personally actually prefer relaxed, easier and fun open world content. I don't expect casual open world players to sweat or run proper builds or anything, just let them enjoy some quality time. I certainly do when I do open world stuff (though I will usually run proper builds like boon supports for metas or solo builds for when I want to solo something).

The problem though is, some of those players then come and whine about not being able to bring THAT attitude and approach to instanced content, which leads to useless discussions, toxicity and drama.

So if this gets people to whine about something else, works for me.

Edited August 14 by Cyninja.2954

[Vayne.8563]

14 hours ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

Ah yes. People started playing this game because they want to organize 50 man raids in the open world., The open world isn't for casual fun with other people. This isn't supposed to be the anti-MMO. Events like this would be semi-redeemable if they were a lot shorter. But making people do 2 sub metas, then complete and almost hour-long post meta with tons of mechanics that apparently you have to organize is just griefing your players and literally goes against everything this game I thought was supposed to be. I initially started playing this game because dragonfall felt like an actual raid without all the BS that a normal MMO thows at you. The only reason I'm not boiling with rage is I guess it doesn't actually hold your legendary progress back? This looks like one of those things that people do once for the achieves/map completion and then never again. 

See, this is the problem right here. You've illustrated it perfectly, so thank you for that.

Some people did start this game because they wanted to organize 50 men in the open world and some people didn't. Some people like harder content, and some people don't. The bulk of the open world probably upwards of 90% of it is for the person who doesn't want to organize hard open world content. It's okay to let the people that want it have a few meta events though.

And while we're on the topic of people investing time in something that may not work out, there are rewards for each event you do in the pre phases that give you zone currencies that you'll want/need anyway, you're not wasting that time. It's just enforced farming. And if you do succeed the reward is better. 

Having to organize isn't griefing your players. And some people actually get better at the game and learn to appreciate it. Some people, of course, never learn and would rather come to the forums and complain, even though the vast majority of the game is made for them. 

And anyone can get into one of those organized groups, even if they're not very good and get carried through it, once they know what to look for. In this groups there are usually a small number of people who are really good, a bunch of people who are average and a number of people who barely do anything. Giving disparate groups of people something for them in a game with this much content seems like a benefit.  Making everyone for just one group seems sort of silly. Every business at some point tries to diversify affter all.

It's nice that you like the game a certain way. Other people like the game a different way.

Edited August 14 by Vayne.8563

[Sobx.1758]

8 hours ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

Ah yes. People started playing this game because they want to organize 50 man raids in the open world

Lucky then that nothing of that sort is needed for this event. Most organized groups I see there just make sure there's like 10-15 players closing rifts. A lot of the squads succeed without any subgroups at all. So maybe you should stop making these wierdly overablown and inaccurate comparisons.

 

7 hours ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

This is what (slightly) more challenging content without regulation looks like.

The developers are LITERALLY reacting to players complaining about how instanced content is being "gated" and how all content should be available to everyone. THAT's what these metas are supposed to accomplish. Similar to public convergences which are meant to circumvent the group creation aspect and allow everyone easy access (well that and share enough resources to allow for traditional instanced content to actually be developed).

THIS is what people complaining about access to certain type of content were essentially asking for: no restrictions in access.

So where did this go wrong? Was it really access players are worried about?

1. access does not mean success, something a lot of players seem to forget

2. asking for access to certain content but not wanting the difficulty tied to that content just means wanting the loot for less effort

3. having no way to filter or influence who you do certain content with will lead to wild fluctuations on how the group performs

Funny how that works out huh?

Some of the forum crowd got EXACTLY what they asked for, except what they wished for was actually loot, and not access. So I guess in a way, they did not get what they wanted because they've been barking up the wrong tree for years.

Yup, I think that's on point.

Edited August 14 by Sobx.1758

[Firebeard.1746]

15 hours ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

This is what (slightly) more challenging content without regulation looks like.

The developers are LITERALLY reacting to players complaining about how instanced content is being "gated" and how all content should be available to everyone. THAT's what these metas are supposed to accomplish. Similar to public convergences which are meant to circumvent the group creation aspect and allow everyone easy access (well that and share enough resources to allow for traditional instanced content to actually be developed).

THIS is what people complaining about access to certain type of content were essentially asking for: no restrictions in access.

So where did this go wrong? Was it really access players are worried about?

1. access does not mean success, something a lot of players seem to forget

2. asking for access to certain content but not wanting the difficulty tied to that content just means wanting the loot for less effort

3. having no way to filter or influence who you do certain content with will lead to wild fluctuations on how the group performs

Funny how that works out huh?

Some of the forum crowd got EXACTLY what they asked for, except what they wished for was actually loot, and not access. So I guess in a way, they did not get what they wanted because they've been barking up the wrong tree for years.

Tl;DR:

You don't get to complain about instanced content and gating because you wanted to "play" that content, then in the next moment complain about lack of gating when the content suddenly is "to hard" and failure actually might occur.

Well you do get to complain, but that is then obviously just about not getting the loot you want at zero effort.

EDIT:

and just to be clear: I personally actually prefer relaxed, easier and fun open world content. I don't expect casual open world players to sweat or run proper builds or anything, just let them enjoy some quality time. I certainly do when I do open world stuff (though I will usually run proper builds like boon supports for metas or solo builds for when I want to solo something).

The problem though is, some of those players then come and whine about not being able to bring THAT attitude and approach to instanced content, which leads to useless discussions, toxicity and drama.

I'm struggling to understand why you're ranting about whiners here because I haven't about raids in ages and have more than 400 li with a natural kill on every boss now. 

I get what your main point is saying but it doesn't make a lot of sense in context. You're saying "great they gave you raids in ow, now you know why we don't let you in"

Content like this that you can't have auto attacking hordes in any gear finish with some minimal amount of coordination is the stuff the RAIDERs wanted (and even then it's a subset of the raiding community, there are people who raid or have raided like myself that see content like this as inappropriate). So it's them trying to make hardcore players happy who will at most do it once, never say thank you and just kitten off 90% of the play base. There is no reason to do that. 

 

I don't want to whine about this and haven't about raids in a really long time (and to reiterate i have a natural kill on every raid boss now and i believe more than 400 li total if you count crafted legendaries). I do think there's still a problem with getting a sufficient % of the community behind training/helping others. It will always be a potential wasted time sink training people and it will always be advantageous to use exp groups. If they want people to train others, they need to reward it somehow. Making arbitrarily hard ow or public content that is guaranteed to fail if the wrong people show up is just griefing the player base. 

I actually don't understand the harder convergence boss or modes they're adding in Janthir when convergence cms are a thing. Without vertical progression, this game is essentially just griefing some subset of the population that can't play at the arbitrary level the devs decide when they go against their manifesto. Yes there should be content that you can complete with any arbitrary group and it makes sense that that content should be ow and public content. 

I also struggle to understand the classic complaints about the open world from the pof era. You were still rewarded with faster loot if you played better. And I'm glad you're fine with casual content. 

 

The other thing that I enjoyed about the more casual content is that being good meant you felt like a super hero. That effect and that feeling that you've gotten stronger is gone when you're handed losses outside of instanced  content, regardless of how good you are.

Edited August 14 by Firebeard.1746

[Firebeard.1746]

13 hours ago, Vayne.8563 said:

Some people did start this game because they wanted to organize 50 men in the open world and some people didn't. Some people like harder content, and some people don't. The bulk of the open world probably upwards of 90% of it is for the person who doesn't want to organize hard open world content. It's okay to let the people that want it have a few meta events though.

Now that convergence cms are a thing, they have the tech to do this without griefing players in the open world. 

And before that tech existed I'd say I agree with you to an extent but:

1) it should be way more obvious when you're starting a meta when it's harder than the 90% to which you're referring

2). Depending on how you count the metas, this is 20 to 33% of the meta content this expansion. That's way too much. 

3) they should only have 1 to 2 metas like this active in any given time frame. If they release too many metas like this then only one or two will have consistent engagement while the rest of the metas will reliably fail. They should talk to the guilds that like to do this stuff about strategies for rotating the content and designing this sort of content. I'm not super active in my tt guild but it's a huge enough drain on that community just running that. Let alone adding this, de meta, and twisted marionette to the mix. Also when you count the effort that some of these communities pay outside the event itself, the event rewards are lackluster in terms of time spent.

Edited August 15 by Firebeard.1746

[Vayne.8563]

32 minutes ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

Now that convergence cms are a thing, they have the tech to do this without griefing players in the open world. 

And before that tech existed I'd say I agree with you to an extent but:

1) it should be way more obvious when you're starting a meta when it's harder than the 90% to which you're referring

2). Depending on how you count the metas, this is 20 to 33% of the meta content this expansion. That's way too much. 

3) they should only have 1 to 2 metas like this active in any given time frame. If they release too many metas like this then only one or two will have consistent engagement while the rest of the metas will reliably fail. They should talk to the guilds that like to do this stuff about strategies for rotating the content and designing this sort of content. I'm not super active in my tt guild but it's a huge enough drain on that community just running that. Let alone adding this, de meta, and twisted marionette to the mix. Also when you count the effort that some of these communities pay outside the event itself, the event rewards are lackluster in terms of time spent.

Yep, probably why they did this. But harder open world stuff is still done multiple times a day.  I've done DE multiple times. Same with the new meta in Inner Nayos. Not sure why you think that only casual are entitled to content.

The are five meta events in the new expansion, one of them is difficult. It's hardly a tsunami.  And it's not as difficult as DE.

[Firebeard.1746]

18 minutes ago, Vayne.8563 said:

Yep, probably why they did this. But harder open world stuff is still done multiple times a day.  I've done DE multiple times. Same with the new meta in Inner Nayos. Not sure why you think that only casual are entitled to content.

The are five meta events in the new expansion, one of them is difficult. It's hardly a tsunami.  And it's not as difficult as DE.

Non casual players got 4 new cms in convergences, a new fractal cm, 2 new cm strikes. That's far from not much content. I don't think that we should have super hard end metas for 2 straight expansions in a row. If the best option for you is to leave a map if you don’t happen to be in a super organized group, that's just not fun. 

 

The 4 cms in convergences are great because they give you that content without forcing players to leave maps. 

[Vayne.8563]

1 hour ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

Non casual players got 4 new cms in convergences, a new fractal cm, 2 new cm strikes. That's far from not much content. I don't think that we should have super hard end metas for 2 straight expansions in a row. If the best option for you is to leave a map if you don’t happen to be in a super organized group, that's just not fun. 

 

The 4 cms in convergences are great because they give you that content without forcing players to leave maps. 

Casual players got a lot more than that. A LOT more. 80% of the metas. A non-cm version of every strike optional strike. Story. Zones. 90 plus percent of the events. Adventures. Legendary armor. Easier skyscale. All the masteries. The game gives everything to casuals. You're complaining that someone gets something hard. I don't see that as a valid complaint. You can't have everything your way.

[Firebeard.1746]

2 minutes ago, Vayne.8563 said:

You're complaining that someone gets something hard.

No I'm complaining that I should just give up and leave a map instead of play with people around me. I've done most of the content considered "hard" in this game. The purpose of the open world shouldn't be leaving if the right people aren't around. 

 

If the other people in my group matter, then it should be instanced content. 

Edited August 15 by Firebeard.1746

[Vayne.8563]

1 hour ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

No I'm complaining that I should just give up and leave a map instead of play with people around me. I've done most of the content considered "hard" in this game. The purpose of the open world shouldn't be leaving if the right people aren't around. 

 

If the other people in my group matter, then it should be instanced content. 

Or you could, I don't know, learn how to play the game, instead of expecting to it cater to your needs. You don't have to give up and leave the map, you choose to. I don't agree with your definition of the purpose of the open world. And nothing in the open world is raid difficulty, not even DE.

[Firebeard.1746]

 

46 minutes ago, Vayne.8563 said:

Or you could, I don't know, learn how to play the game, instead of expecting to it cater to your needs.

Because you seem to be ignoring me:

 

1 hour ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

If the other people in my group matter, then it should be instanced content. 

It's not an l2p issue if it passes a certain bar of difficulty for other players and given the comments from other players in this thread, I think it does. If the other players who started this thread weren't saying it should be nerfed or it's failing now, I'd believe you. I'm not totally against comming either. I've led lots of events that just required a little coordination. 

 

I still have trauma from trying de meta with randos using my tag and it never working. If the general consensus is that randos don't work i'll advocate against a meta like that. When I joined pre organized groups for de, it usually worked, but at that point there's no point in playing the open world when all the organization to succeed happens outside it. And at that point I might as well play a raid or some other instanced content with a higher g/hr. 

Edited August 15 by Firebeard.1746

[Vayne.8563]

2 hours ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

 

Because you seem to be ignoring me:

 

It's not an l2p issue if it passes a certain bar of difficulty for other players and given the comments from other players in this thread, I think it does. If the other players who started this thread weren't saying it should be nerfed or it's failing now, I'd believe you. I'm not totally against comming either. I've led lots of events that just required a little coordination. 

 

I still have trauma from trying de meta with randos using my tag and it never working. If the general consensus is that randos don't work i'll advocate against a meta like that. When I joined pre organized groups for de, it usually worked, but at that point there's no point in playing the open world when all the organization to succeed happens outside it. And at that point I might as well play a raid or some other instanced content with a higher g/hr. 

Triple Trouble has been in the game for probably 6 or 7 years and it requires an organized squad to do it. Many metas when they came out required organization until the community learned them. DE is just like that. It's something the community can learn. The fact that some people don't want to is not the game's problem. The game has to cater to different groups of people. Not everyone wants to raid or do instanced content that's difficult in a group, but they  do want more difficult content where they can be anonymous. Some content needs to cater to that too. Not a lot of it, just some.

Why do you think all the open world content needs to cater to you?

Edited August 15 by Vayne.8563

[Schimmi.6872]

3 hours ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

 

Because you seem to be ignoring me:

 

It's not an l2p issue if it passes a certain bar of difficulty for other players and given the comments from other players in this thread, I think it does. If the other players who started this thread weren't saying it should be nerfed or it's failing now, I'd believe you. I'm not totally against comming either. I've led lots of events that just required a little coordination. 

 

I still have trauma from trying de meta with randos using my tag and it never working. If the general consensus is that randos don't work i'll advocate against a meta like that. When I joined pre organized groups for de, it usually worked, but at that point there's no point in playing the open world when all the organization to succeed happens outside it. And at that point I might as well play a raid or some other instanced content with a higher g/hr. 

Who said that  the event doesn't work with randoms? Yes, the boss is a hp-sponge and as everywhere an organised squad will be better / faster, but that doesn't mean it can't be done without organisation. As I'm currently farming and collecting the parts for the legy I'm usually on the map multiple times per week, untill now I have seen the meta been done by unorganised squads or even maps without commanders multiple times, so no, while it would help, an organisation isn't needed. In total I think I have seen two fails, one was a very empty map late at night and the other one failed rifts very early.

Compared to other more difficult metas, this fight only has one very important mechanic -> RIFTS, if they are done carefully, the rest might be a long fight, but usually it shouldn't be such a big problem. 

What do you mean that people are leaving the map? Are they leaving before the meta because the map isn't organised well, or did they leave during the meta, when too many rifts failed? 

[Aaron Forestman.4758]

15 hours ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

Content like this that you can't have auto attacking hordes in any gear finish with some minimal amount of coordination is the stuff the RAIDERs wanted (and even then it's a subset of the raiding community, there are people who raid or have raided like myself that see content like this as inappropriate). So it's them trying to make hardcore players happy who will at most do it once, never say thank you and just kitten off 90% of the play base. There is no reason to do that. 

Expecting to meet any sort of success in any expansion while auto attacking with no concern for gear, positioning, dodging, etc. is expecting other players to carry you. You're not contributing to the success of the event, you're leeching off of players that are actually putting minimal effort in. Eparch is a massive slog, but not a difficult meta. Don't complain that you can't be carried; put in the slightest bit of work and practice a good build so you can contribute to everyone's success.

[Firebeard.1746]

52 minutes ago, Aaron Forestman.4758 said:

Expecting to meet any sort of success in any expansion while auto attacking with no concern for gear, positioning, dodging, etc. is expecting other players to carry you. You're not contributing to the success of the event, you're leeching off of players that are actually putting minimal effort in. Eparch is a massive slog, but not a difficult meta. Don't complain that you can't be carried; put in the slightest bit of work and practice a good build so you can contribute to everyone's success.

The point I am trying to make that keeps going whoosh is that you have no control over other players and that's about the best you can expect from other players. The ops seemed to think this was a difficult meta so I necro'd the thread after having trouble with it due to EoD trauma. There's no way I'm trying this 10 times with randos and just getting my time wasted again. I even tried organizing boons that were available from randos during eod and that didn't even work. 

 

 

Edited August 15 by Firebeard.1746

[Firebeard.1746]

8 hours ago, Vayne.8563 said:

Why do you think all the open world content needs to cater to you

Why do you think the game should suddenly disproportionately cater to you?

 

Taking core tyria as an example we have 25 maps to TT. That's it. It's  not 20-33% of the game.  Teq is mostly a numbers thing and doesn't require alot of coordination so I'm not counting that. The rewards are sufficient to guarantee reliable success. But even if we chose to count teq, that's 8% of maps, no 20-33%

 

You're the one advocating for disproportionate content their way. Don't attack me after spoiled rotten for 2 straight expansions. 

Edited August 15 by Firebeard.1746

[Vayne.8563]

6 hours ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

Why do you think the game should suddenly disproportionately cater to you?

 

Taking core tyria as an example we have 25 maps to TT. That's it. It's  not 20-33% of the game.  Teq is mostly a numbers thing and doesn't require alot of coordination so I'm not counting that. The rewards are sufficient to guarantee reliable success. But even if we chose to count teq, that's 8% of maps, no 20-33%

 

You're the one advocating for disproportionate content their way. Don't attack me after spoiled rotten for 2 straight expansions. 

At no point did I ask Anet to change anything. I never said I love hard metas that require coordination. That's an assumption on your part. You're the one asking for change, claiming that you know what the open world should be. 

My argument is that people that like harder content are entitled to a bit of consideration and I don't consider the amount of difficult open world content to be overwhelming. I never said it fits my play style perfect. 

Right now, there's a small percentage of difficult open world metas. Five metas in Soto and four of them are dead set casual. That, to me, means I'm willing to share the open world with people who like different things than I do.

You're the one trying to define the open world as what you want it to be, and you don't want any metas that require organization.

I'm much more likely to run easier metas than harder ones. I just took the time to learn the game, so I have the option of running both.

Edited August 15 by Vayne.8563
I typed POF instead of Soto

[Firebeard.1746]

It's a valid complaint when you start playing a game that is a certain way to call out that it's changed and you're unhappy with it. And I suspect we'll end up with a pile of ghost metas in the long run. 

Edited August 15 by Firebeard.1746

[Sobx.1758]

17 hours ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

No I'm complaining that I should just give up and leave a map instead of play with people around me. I've done most of the content considered "hard" in this game. The purpose of the open world shouldn't be leaving if the right people aren't around. 

But... nobody told you to leave?

17 hours ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

If the other people in my group matter, then it should be instanced content. 

No, it should not. There's place for slightly harder events in ow too and that's what it is. It doesn't involve any extraordinary mechanics or dps, players pug it normally without organizing your proclaimed "50 player raid squads".

 

4 hours ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

Why do you think the game should suddenly disproportionately cater to you?

But that's not what's happening, you're the one who wants the game to disproportionaly cater to you and the moment 1 slightly harder meta event appears, you're announcing it has no place in ow.

Edited August 15 by Sobx.1758