Janthir Wilds Spear Beta Event Feedback: Thief

[Wulfhearth.7962]

By the concept alone probably my favorite weapon of this batch. As someone who always struggled with the spammy nature of a lot of thief builds, i really enjoy the combo mechanic and flow of the spear! 

The different skills are versatile and can be combined in multiple different ways. I especially like the skill 4 and how versatile it is to weave into your combos to set up the conditional conditions. 😉 One gripe i have here is that the damage buff if you use it after a finisher makes it a bit artificially clunky and less versatile than it should be. I don't think the spear would be too overpowered if it just got the extra damage baseline rather than locking it behind the 4 (and competing with the extra initiative from the stealth attack).

I am also torn on the skill 4 replacing the lead attacks after a finisher: on the one hand it is quite nice and handy in melee, but it can feel a bit weird to start the combo with a ranged attack and lose your gap closer on skill3. 

Speaking of skill 3, i really hope it not interacting with the acrobatics traitline is an oversight that will be fixed. Acrobatics needs some love and the spear would be perfect for it. The spear would also really profit from the skill 3 giving resistance trough guarded initiation to make your combos a bit easier to land. 

Skill 5 being a stronger defensive skill if used after a finished combo feels a bit counter-intuitive too. Maybe it could be stronger if used after a lead- or follow-up attack (and interrupt your combo) instead? 

Edited Sunday at 08:33 AM by Wulfhearth.7962
added thoughts about 5 Skill

[FrancisN.9276]

Autoattack being just a 2-hit feels awkward, especially when those 2 hits are back-to-back like the single first dagger autoattack. The way character uses one hand to swirl the spear around while the left hand is free looks really weird.

Distracting throw, being both a range attack and a lead attack makes you lose a gap closer on spear 3, whose follow-up skill requires melee range - this does not feels right.

Combo flows smoothly. Animation team certainly make a lot of improvements compared to Daredevil staff skills.

[Lyralia.2945]

I like it. It does feel like less damage than maybe is best in wvw in 2024 considering everything thats out there now (willbender is still just insane to play, especially with certain builds I won't mention).. but the mobi on this weapon and options make up for it lacking beefy damage and brawlers gotta brawl. I like that it doesn't eat up all the initiative because realistically it can't if you expect us to brawl with classes that have near infinite cooldown loops/rotations and the ability to clear all our condis immediately by plonking out tons of fields and blasting them while simultaneously giving us every condi in the game. I think the fact it has good mobi is important considering it is expecting us to be a brawler playstyle - stealth being locked behind as much as it is with this means we need that. It is nice to at least feel its possible to win without stealth and porting shenanigans.

I like that thief can be as fast/faster than willbender again. As it should be. Do not overnerf the mobi - it would kill the weapon entirely if it becomes slow.

Don't forget what we give up on this - do not forget that we COULD be doing that escape with a teleport, stealth (leaving them unable to know where we went) and double stacked aoe group superspeed using the relic which we lose access to by using a limited/conditional stealth weapon. On dagger/pistol it was 5 then bound dodge or 2 for them to just stop being able to see us and then we could escape just fine with no recourse.

Still, I will feel more generally effective on my stealth build or pistol/pistol or a bunch of other thief builds.. even scepter condi is going to be better damage ultimately despite not being a brawler and being able to still have stealth on bound if I really want it to.

So yeah, basically what I'm saying is I might use it for fun sometimes or as a backup mobi weapon. I think if anything it might need to be tuned up, and I don't consider the mobi to be particularly all that problematic... though I know people will complain. The more I thought about it though, its fine. Especially considering the power creep on other classes such as guardian getting to be faster than us while hitting like a truck to 5 targets, being tough as nails and having zerg and group utility.

Its an ok weapon. It opens up a (possible) playstyle, so mission accomplished as far as that. Other brawlers are still a problem for us, especially tanky ranged condi spam stuff that is everywhere now.

Edited Sunday at 05:27 AM by Lyralia.2945

[Lithril Ashwalker.6230]

While on the topic of feedback why don't we also Implement a little symbol in the top right or left hand corner of the associated attacks that do have a lead off hand and finisher similar or the exact appearance of the Guild Wars 1 variance of lead off hand and finishing attacks to indicate what attack we can follow up with? Just a qol suggestion.

LEAD ATTACK>OFFHAND>FINISHER symbols from gw1 assassin below

https://wiki.guildwars.com/images/7/73/Lead_Attack.pnghttps://wiki.guildwars.com/images/c/c7/Off-Hand_Attack.pnghttps://wiki.guildwars.com/images/9/97/Dual_Attack.png

 

@Zacchary.6183

 

Also, I know it belongs in the axe feed back,  why not do a full rework of axe on thief to use the spear type of lead, offhand etc attacks? Spear, albeit still being tweaked, is still better than axe...axe is also not as impactful or used as much and could handle such a rework that it could see more life breathed into it as it currently stands so it'll be more positively impacted.

 

3 leap Spear NEEDS to be a leap and the auto needs to be whirl finisher.

 

Mind you also,  Malicious Cunning Salvo...is...still...not...a...blast finisher despite "being flagged"

 

 

Edited Monday at 09:40 PM by Lithril Ashwalker.6230

[kidbuu.4071]

The weapon skill 5 (Shadow Veil) on the spear should be an area-of-effect block that affects 5 players, meeting some of the requirements for the support Specter.

 

The weapon skill combo ( vampiric  slash)could also be an area-of-effect for recipients of the healing effect in the area.

[Lithril Ashwalker.6230]

3 minutes ago, kidbuu.4071 said:

The weapon skill 5 (Shadow Veil) on the spear should be an area-of-effect block that affects 5 players, meeting some of the requirements for the support Specter.

 

The weapon skill combo ( vampiric  slash)could also be an area-of-effect for recipients of the healing effect in the area.

Ahhh! You mean all thief weapons / stealth attacks tying to currently specced especs? Dude that'd be sweet asf

[Wulfhearth.7962]

25 minutes ago, Lithril Ashwalker.6230 said:

Also, I know it belongs in the axe feed back,  why not do a full rework of axe on thief to use the spear type of lead, offhand etc attacks? Spear, albeit still being tweaked, is still better than axe...axe is also not as impactful or used as much and could handle such a rework that it could see more life breathed into it as it currently stands so it'll be more positively impacted.

I actually enjoy axe a lot. While not quite as cool as the Spear, it's rotation is more interesting than the classic one-button spam and it feels satisfying to use. 

[Lithril Ashwalker.6230]

1 minute ago, Wulfhearth.7962 said:

I actually enjoy axe a lot. While not quite as cool as the Spear, it's rotation is more interesting than the classic one-button spam and it feels satisfying to use. 

Wouldn't it be nice to keep current function but have MORE like spear?

[CrazyM.1852]

New weapon looks nice, but am worried that it will end up like another condi Deadeye weapon, as the power scaling is bad.

Pls make it viable as a power weapon when the expansion drops. Would love to play some other power weapon in Pve that has some aoe that is not staff.

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

It's a better staff than staff.

Otherwise,
Skill #4 could be boons (quickness/mights) instead of buff, it'll greatly improve viability in all modes for all specs -deadeye. And easily "nerf" benchmark against cat-golem.

[quake.9023]

fun fun. alot potential with the new system for 2,3. the weapon skill seem to cost to little to use???? is that initiative right????

nothing much to say that needs change. smooth n fun

[Telos.2359]

Hello all!

I've been enjoying thief for quite a short time (1 year+ at best) compared to all the big thief mains out here so be mindful of that.
This is also from a PvE perspective. Sorry for potential typos and mistakes in advance.

I feel like spear is quite like what staff could have been for daredevil had it been released nowadays instead of during HoT where the dev vision might have been a bit different at that time.
But hey, staff is staff and spear is spear!

First, a bug : initiative costing skill don't grant shadow force with specter as many have already mentioned.
Another often mentioned problem is interrupting your stealth attack by pressing buttons which feels bad in the middle of action.

 

As I was playing it, I always wanted to go for skill 4 or stealth attack after a full combo chain rather than go to the 5th (the blocking one) skill. I feel like blocking should be done reactively (especially in competitive mode, I'd think even though I did not try it with spear) and as such sounds a bit counter intuitive with the whole combo ideas.
Maybe the block skill could be changed into another attack when it follows a finisher attack? But it would remain the blocking ability when not used after a finisher? Maybe make the blocking better as multiple peaple have already mentioned.

 

So far I hear it's abusable by M7 deadeye trait like kind of every weapon due to the init recharge.
I personally tried mainly with daredevil and I feel like it would be nice if spear had a way to regain endurance to be better with Daredevil. With one of the combo chains? Or the available finishers? (stealth attack for example?) Maybe a bit of torment for specter fans too?
It would be fun to have a new weapon not abusable by M7 trait, but the trait is very interesting to have for other options (like axe)!

 

Numbers could and will probably be adjusted for power variant I guess. It's often the problem with hybrid weapons, they often sound like a synonym to the word "condi", and the power variant always have felt a bit lackluster. Because there is some power aspect in Viper stat, I understand that with hybrid weapons, upping the power coefficient would also work for viper builds rather than create another option. Hope you guys find a way to balance it, power spear needs help! 😄

 

Overall love the fluid rotating animation moves with the spear. Combined with daredevil dodges, it felt like a martial dance and I would love to have even more of this feeling. For that, wish the 4th skill wasn't a throw 😄 But it might be personal taste rather than constructive feedback who knows.
Jumping around with fluid spear movements while also disappearing and reappearing looks very nice and has a nice flow to it.
I love that spear wants to do quite a few things, giving us offensive but also defensive combos, it sounds a bit more durable than with other weapons in combat which feels like. Wouldn't want the dance to be interrupted after all. 
Speaking of not interrupting the dance, please, it would be great if blocked or dodged attack didn't interrupt the whole chain 😄 Feels very frustrating otherwise, as dodges and blocks will happen a lot especially, I think, in competitive mode. I would personally love to be able to continue chaining attacks despite being blocked or dodged!

Keep up the good work! Wish the best for the team! Thanks for the beta testing! 🙂

Edited Sunday at 05:21 PM by Telos.2359

[Zero.6725]

Spear is a mess. It suffers from an identity crisis. It aims to be a bruiser weapon but fails to deliver sustain accordingly.

PvE: At the moment it is not so obvious because of the insane PVE damage. The weapon shines because of the flow and for PVE there are only minor adjustments needed. Buff Barbed Spear’s damage and tip the scale of the overall power budget slightly towards power damage. Condition damage outperforms its power counterpart drastically.

Get rid of the DPS Buff on Distracting Throw. It feels like it was shoehorned into the kit, in order to incentive another button press every other loop just for the sake of the buff. We already got something like that on the thief kit via Bounding Dodger. It is no fun gameplay-wise to juggle another Buff just for the sake of it.

WvW/PvP:

Whereas the condition version is somewhat working, the power version hits like a wet noodle. It needs serious damage buffs across the board. The spear wants you to stay melee for a prolonged time, but it fails to address thief’s shortcomings (the reliability on active defenses like stealth, evades, blinds). It mimics Sword/Dagger but it is worse than those weapons. Increasing the target cap to 5 can create a niche for the spear.

• Mantis Sting (2/1): The 130 range is not enough to make it usable on moving targets. The only reliable way is to chain it into a Shadowstep. Increase its range by 50 at least and increase the cone width as well.
• Entangling Asp (2/2): The 3 second window (like for every Follow-up and Finisher skill) is too punishing for a combo chain that deals most damage at the end. This skill has to deal more damage. Stealth, invulnerability, blocks negate the damage portion of the chain and reset it for the cost of a third of your Initiative. Buff immobilize to 2 seconds in order to increase the chance to keep the combo going.
• Falling Spider (2/3): Having 25% of the skill’s damage depend on immobilize is plain bad. People use lots of cleanses in competitive modes, which means even if you get to your finisher it will lack a big chunk of its potential damage. Increase the damage and add vulnerability stacks as an extra instead of the 25% extra damage. Increase the range by 50. That will allow more consistent pressure.
• Unsuspecting Strike (3/1): The cartwheel is ridiculous! The low initiative cost for a movement skill that is faster than mounts is uncalled for. Decrease the distance and change the skill, so that it is not influenced by Swiftness or Superspeed anymore. Moving targets are its bane just like Mantis Sting. A visually telegraphed skill like this, needs a bigger AoE at the end of the attack. The skill works as gap closer and does its damage at the end. At the moment you can just outrun it as an opponent because of a collision/pathing issue. Furthermore it is wonky with certain terrain that acts as an unintentional launchpad.
• Vampiric Slash (3/2): The only single target combo skill of the spear. Reduce the life siphon damage and the life siphon healing and trade it for an adjusted target cap. It is obviously meant to be the power dps and sustain part of the kit. It falls short in fights against multiple targets and its sustain is outdone by incoming cleave damage.
• Shattering Assault (3/3): Might be bugged because you can use it without a target. It has an interesting synergy with stealth traits and boon removal. Remove the evade frame (at the begin of the attack). Increase the attack range to Falling Spiders 240 and buff its damage.
• Distracting Throw: Remove this skill from the game asap and rework it! It is a ranged 1sec daze which costs 3 Initiative (Headshot has ¼ sec daze and costs 4 Initiative). If you increase the Initiative cost, you will deny the damage buff which is part of the power budget. The buff itself is too short (7 sec. instead of PvE 10 sec.) and only available mid fight.
  I would recommend to get rid of the damage buff (adjust damage accordingly) and change it into a sustain buff (-20% Incoming power and condition damage for 10 seconds across all game modes). Change the Daze into a pull (like Prelude Lash without immobilize, but with cripple and vulnerability), which gives the buff on a successful hit. Add a flip skill that is a 360 range ground-targeted Shadowstep and removes 2 conditions on the player and its allies. This way nobody can spam the crowd control and you gain a potential setup for Entangling Asp or Vampiric Slash. If you use the pull after a finisher the skill removes one Boon per target. This change would allow you to keep your target close and get your chains going (pull into immob into damage).
• Shadow Veil: Blocking one attack is not enough. Spear has no meaningful access to the usual defenses. Increase the Initiative cost by one and turn it into a full 2 sec block. If used after a finisher it refunds 2 Initiative, thus allowing thieves to turn the tide.
• Ashen Assault (Stealth Attack): It does no damage currently. Increase the damage and change the refund so that it happens at the beginning of the attack and not at the end. This will allow us to react with a block if we are low on Initiative.

PS: Do yourself a favor and make the Initiative refund on Deadeye baseline (5 Initiative) for the spec. Let M7 keep 2 extra Initiative and Malice for higher Spikes with longer preparation time. You will have an easier time balancing then. Make the extra Initiative from Trickery’s Preparedness baseline as well. A single Initiative pool makes it easier as well.

[Ottohi.2871]

Oh boy, it's feedback time! I'll also include bugs I've found and such, because while reported, you can just see here easily if you also suffer it.

Keep the following in mind:
- I'm mostly a WvW player. No heavy duty PvE/sPvP
- Not everything was legendary, so I was just using ascended cele armor/gear.
- Did not try with daredevil. Didn't see a need to since staff is for daredevil
- Squid spear is best spear, fight me on it. No other skins compare.

What I liked:
- skill 2 and 3 being big 3 chains that you could mix up. I personally used 3 -> 2 -> 3 and 2->2->3 a lot as I liked ending up in stealth because I quite like the stealth attack.
- It's very versatile at range or up close without being overdone. Just enough ranged to continue to reach out and disrupt until you can get back into melee, without being something like a stupid 1200 range rapid fire.
- As clunky as it sometimes seemed to be (can we not let it activate again if I happen to double tap the button, just make it stop instead and refund some ini), I liked blocking big burst shots with skill 5.
- I really like the stealth attack. It's snappy, feels quick, and does a good job at what it needs to.

What didn't bother me:
- Damage scaling. I know people have had the deadeye that does a bajillion dps, but it didn't bother me that much that some felt lower. In fact, to me, that just made it feel like it really needed the chaining together instead of like spamming through it as fast as possible to get 1 or constantly resetting it. I very much dislike staff for that reason, since it's just a pick 1 button per game mode and do nothing but spam that one. The exception is the auto-attack with tickles foes.
- Skill 4. I didn't find it the most useful for weaving like most people might mention. For me it was just a ranged daze. That +damage on it makes it look important, but WvW side of things, I was using it like headshot. I don't mind that it's there, just please do not tie anything more into it.
- The fact you can just spam skill 3 on lead attack mode and vanish into the distance. I can see people will be complaining about it but to be honest I like it just the way it is. Make the silly runaway a cost for ini instead of something that just relies on a cd in util slots that you can get back to after playing the permanent stealth game for a while.

What did bother me:
- As mentioned prior, what's up with that auto-attack being so bad in melee range? I can understand the restrictions on ranged because it's a lot of utility in how to engage and do damage in an auto-attack, but for what it was, it was just mostly ignored. It was sorta useful with quickness but that was it.
- 3 seconds is all you have to decide for some of the attacks. If something moved significantly, I would lose all access to the last one in the chain I had set up before I could catch up. This was most egregious with longbow rangers. We all know what they were doing to the mob. We all know why they do it. We all wish they would stop.
- As mentioned prior, the block was weird. The fact you can accidentally spam it and it'll just keep eating up ini instantly bugs me. I'm used to most block skills have a flip to new ability or cancel. This has neither.
- Does anyone else feel the tooltips lie completely for the 2 line? I mean sure, they do the effects they say, but I've seen the sword/dagger 3 flip skill, which in my gear is listed as 1481 damage, do upwards of 8k. I've not seen the ending one of spear skill 2, which is listed as 1535 with a 25% increase possible, do more than like 5k. I mean, it's fine because it makes it feel like constant combos are needed for me, but am I missing something? I'm not changing stats or even traits. Just smacking the kitty golem in the training area.

Bugs I've encountered:
- Why do the animations break when you get CCed? I've been chilled to the bone and started aggressively T-posing. Get knocked back? T-pose and slide back. Maybe the animations weren't ready and in?
- How did this utterly break with specter? Not once have I pressed the buttons 2-5 and had ANY of them give me Shadow Force. My torment sigil interacting with traits? Works 100% as it should. Pressing F1? Works 100% as it should. Machine gun spamming skill 4 at point blank into a test golem? Nothing. Well, actually, something from the sigil, but otherwise nothing.
Spamming just the chain for skill 2 in the same way? Same results. I've already accepted I never get to see shadow shroud outside of PvE these days, but can I at least pretend to go into every so often?
- Does the stealth attack interrupt itself sometimes? Yeah, I'll admit I keep auto-attack on 1 turned on, and yes I know I should turn it off for more control and such, but. . . What is interrupting it? Sometimes it does it, sometimes not. And I've only really ruled out that I 100% am facing the foe and not standing accidentally under them forcing a turn.

Overall:
I like it overall. Nice flow to it, some rather funny or annoying/spec breaking bugs but that's to be expected, right? So fix for specter, and maybe bump the auto-attack up a tad in power damage.

Edited Sunday at 05:06 PM by Ottohi.2871

[AJVO Havoc MX.7294]

I'do prefer it as full power weapon centered only rather than hybrid, imo thieves need a weapon to compete to daggers on PowerDPS
You just gave us axe for hybrid damage so why do it on spear too?? Thief has pretty consistent condi builds and not like we needed another condi addition but instead the spear should go fully after power builds and if so make it equal to daggers or even sighly higher on specific circunstances.

Condi is the meta, game nowdays is full of condi builds and condi players with a few exceptions like power soulbeast or power DE

It's about time u start working power as a choice not only for pugs starting game lol but also for vet players that enjoy playing power as well and want it to be as meta as the damm condi Virtuoso you find on every single strike, raids or fractals lfmao

Sure you gave us weapons diversity yet no actual Condi/Power builds diversity to compete against each other but mostly condi unless sticking with very few specific professions... Or just want to chill at pve but even there you will read the word "BURN!! BURRRNNNN!!" Way too often rolf

[MKJO.8970]

Alright, I will say it once again. M7 deadeyes cannot be allowed to be the best in slot spec for almost every weapon:

Specter weapons: Scepter (condi), no power wep

Daredevil weapons: Staff (power), D/D (condi)

Deadeye weapons: Rifle, Staff, D/D, D/P, Axe/P (all power), Axe/D

The spear is dominant in power and condi (once again) on deadeye. Is this design intended? My disappointment stays constant if Deadeye Spear superiority remains true.
We already got the Axe for deadeye, and I love that weapon. But man, would it not be wonderful if Daredevil + the acrobatics traitline got some love.

I am a Deadeye main and I do not want this weapon. As someone who loves to spec into daredevil from time to time though - I would love to play this weapon

Edited Monday at 09:15 AM by MKJO.8970

[ElforTheLandStander.7052]

I like the skills, but don't like the animations. For a 2H weapon, a lot of classes seem to grip it with one hand. Which is fine for a throwing grip for ranged attacks, but a lot of melee attacks seem to consist of grasping it by the middle with one hand, flailing and flourishing it around.

 

Grab it with that other hand! Are thrusting animations hard to do? (I genuinely don't know.) We have a lot of really satisfying polearm animations with melee staff classes now, but those are mostly sweeping attacks.

[Narrenwinter.2637]

Skill #3 provides way too much mobility. It's even worse than Willbender. In WvW you can even outrun/catch up with players on mounts!

Movement is incredibly powerful in WvW, which has been consistently ignored by the devs so far. Everyone playing Willbender in WvW right now will just switch to Spear Thief after release.

Fighting someone who can just disengage and reset combat at any time is so boring, annoying and pointless.

The problem is already ingame with Willbender and Deadeye/Rifle Thief.

Spear Skill #3 is even stronger (by a lot!). This is not healthy for WvW at all.

 

[bq pd.2148]

1 hour ago, Narrenwinter.2637 said:

Everyone playing Willbender in WvW right now will just switch to Spear Thief after release

i would love that.
because spear thief is mainly condi damage which is much easier to handle, they are easier to interrupt and unlike willbender f2 the staff dash is not an evade and can thus be interrupted with all the ranged CC that the game now has.
i mean already should thieves win against willbender, but a spear thief can safely be ignored or farmed by other thieves, while the willbender is actually a threat if one fails at dodging.

but much rather i would want the chains to advance regardless of hit, then you cannot use the dash back to back. thief would lose some runaway power but get better access to the stronger followup/finisher skills.

[Narrenwinter.2637]

24 minutes ago, bq pd.2148 said:

but much rather i would want the chains to advance regardless of hit

That's actually a good solution!

[Xaylin.1860]

I tested all Spears in a rather casual PvE setting. So this is more of a first impression than a thorough assessment.

I probably enjoyed Thief and Mesmer Spear most. I never played GW1 but it feels so great to be incentivized for actually mixing skills rather than dumping all Initiative into one skill. No real complains on Deadeye and Daredevil. For Specter it felt a bit Initiative heavy when not chaining into Ashen Assault.

[Matt H.6142]

I didn't see much benefit in mixing follow-up attacks or finishers.  Just 222 and 333.  Stealth attack had the best spear animation (unless the target was smaller than the Charr PC) but the damage was negligible.

[Gaiawolf.8261]

3 hours ago, Matt H.6142 said:

I didn't see much benefit in mixing follow-up attacks or finishers.  Just 222 and 333.  Stealth attack had the best spear animation (unless the target was smaller than the Charr PC) but the damage was negligible.

I think this was mostly by design to keep it simple except on reactive play. Each had their purpose so you stuck to the same chain unless you need to switch things up, like starting with #2 for CC, but if things get hairy, you have the option to switch to #3 for stealth. Conversely, I often used #3 as a gap closer before switching to 2-2-4-3-3-1. If they started to run, my chain after #4 switched to 2-2-4 again. 

[Artemis.8034]

Well one good thing about spear on thief, we wont have to worry about it getting nerfed 2 weeks after it goes live

[kidbuu.4071]

On 6/30/2024 at 6:01 AM, Zhaid Zhem.6508 said:

It's a better staff than staff.

Otherwise,
Skill #4 could be boons (quickness/mights) instead of buff, it'll greatly improve viability in all modes for all specs -deadeye. And easily "nerf" benchmark against cat-golem.

Good insight but I think % is a good step for anyone in competitive mode, less chance of boon strip or corruption of boons