Janthir Wilds Spear Beta Event Feedback: Necromancer

[Xaylin.1860]

I tested all Spears in a rather casual PvE setting. So this is more of a first impression than a thorough assessment.

The skills are fine and the visuals are alright as well. I first was very interested in the teleport and the boon hate - which of course is more PvP focussed. But at least in PvP, it at best felt like a hybrid of GS and Swords. I'm not sure if I had preferred it being condi. But yet another power weapon isn't too exciting either. I didn't feel the LF drain too much but my build brought enough. So maybe that's why I didn't mind. Not at total miss but at least for PvE nothing new.

What I definitely dislike: Yet another stacking unique boon. Death Magic Harbingers look ridiculous. It also seemed to fall off quite quickly.

[Vooksa.2941]

I made a thread talking about my expectations for Necro spear as soon as it was teased, and expected to hate it, but I had a reasonable amount of fun with it in actual play. Like most other spears, it's surprisingly flexible on Core builds; using a Relic of Peitha for shadowstep-DPS combos with the shadowstep available on core shroud. But that's where my praise ends.

Much like how swords were designed to overlap and compete with axe/focus as an existing 1H niche for midrange, boon corruption, fear, and chill, with healing no one asked for and unsupported health consume traits, spear seems deadset on competing with greatsword, as a melee-range power 2H with chill on it, but again, tacks on a healing mechanic that nobody asked for.

(I actually thought there might be space for a hybrid application, using Curses, bleed on crit, fury entering shroud, bonus crit per condition and bonus condi per precision, Enfeeble entering shroud, and crits inflict weakness, but the weapon's frontloaded bonus damage below enemy health threshold means you either kill foes immediately, or fail to kill on the burst and are left with boggy CDs that compel you to weaponswap.)

Ultimately, the weapon is fine. But it's JUST fine. It feels like a low bar was hurdled, rather than something someone was inspired to make, a grab-bag of features that still somehow doesn't successfully create a new gameplay outlet for most Necromancer builds that aren't "enter shroud and burst down to win", which has been supported for years, using the exact same traits that spear is expected to use to do it's damage as well.

• Spear, like greatsword, deals a ton of damage through out-of-shroud spam, but if spear was meant to reward regular flickering into and out of shroud, spear should have had a mechanic that reduced the CD of entering shroud. Possibly, -1s per soul shard consumed. On-entry traits are still controlled by iCD, and Core/Reaper/Scourge still need LF to enter/stay in shroud, but Harbinger could see unique use on account of actually gaining LF when allowed to enter shroud. It'd be nicer if there was some other Harb feature for on-enter shroud or a non-damage value for using shroud skills like boons or healing, rather than multiple mechanics rewarding Harb for staying in shroud, but that's a separate issue.
• Health-sustain weapon tech on the most beefy profession in the game is a joke. Instead, have swords and spear generate LF, not healing and not low-threshold healing, and redesign Blood Magic to use LF as a source of healing. [Overflowing Thirst] converts a percentage of your LF gain into self-healing, and [Life From Death] or [Last Rites] could grant their threshold-based bonus healing power based on your current LF amount, with bonus LF gained if at maximum LF already. Combos with [Blood Bank], makes LF generation not meaningless to have 'too much' of, creates a unique useage case where spear is actually more comparable to mainhand dagger as a self-sustain weapon, than greatsword, and enables a playstyle for non-shroud dependency, allowing for shroud to be played with as a not-irreplaceable elite spec tool.
• (Speaking of separate issues, and if we wanted to go REALLY crazy: Harbinger has no LF pool, LF is gained as healing, and shroud skills cannibalizes your health instead of LF. Blight inflicts damage over time, not health reduction or healing. For Harb to be peak, it destroys itself, and so needs to more meaningfully trade into self-sustain or find allies. Swords, spear, and daggers become a sustain tool, double-dipping for healing when using the above Blood Magic changes.)
• But absolutely insane suggestions aside, back on the topic of spear. Soul Shards is an interesting idea, but without being tied to an elite spec to use traits to choose if it gives us bonus damage, healing, or inflict conditions, it's a bit... iffy. If Perforate included "Soul shards that strike a weakened foe inflict bleeding" would not only be thematically relevant, but help marry spear in to the various bonuses in Curses, and help placate the hybrid/condi-enjoyers a little, while allowing some lasting benefits from the burst against enemies who didn't die from it.
• Extirpate is an interesting experiment, but ultimately falls short. Grant it a non-staff mark as well: "Perform a wide swing that inscribes a mark. Foes struck by the initial attack, or who trigger the mark, have 3 boons removed and gain 3 Extirpation, plus 1 Extirpation per boon removed, and grant you 1 might and 1 soul shard per foe struck. If Extirpation is allowed to expire, it inflicts a follow up attack, inflicting 2s of poison." This would create an outlet for Soul Reaping's [Soul Marks], unblockable and bonus LF, help with zoning in competitive if you don't cast it in the middle of a zerg or miss, and has PvE value against bosses beyond the initial damaging swing.

So, again. Necro spear is fine, but it's JUST fine. It doesn't engage with Necro's tech enough to create a great new niche use, and it only does that one new niche well, and everything else is something we already had enough of. Some of that problem is because of Necro's traits not promoting new playstyles, but I don't have a lot of faith those will change at all, much less change any time soon, or before the expansion. Cranking the damage doesn't help this one, because it already hits like a truck when used for that aforementioned niche case, and neither will reducing the CDs or increasing the range. Like swords before it, I really feel like the issues with this one can't be solved by simple number fixes, and it'll be tossed aside as a one-trick spike-stick.

[Provocative.3561]

I think the item is pretty niche overall. Only recommendations would be increase the range of spear skill 2 and 3. Everything is pretty good considering the niche part

[Tilastik.8193]

Some feedback about the necro spear. All melee spear skills (auto attack also) should have at least 200 range.

Auto-attack should be a little bit faster and generate more life force. Reduce the auto chain by .5 sec and increase the life force generation by 1%.

Skill #2 (Perforate): each strike should apply 1 stack of vulnerability. Soul shards also need to last a little bit longer

Skill #3 (Addle): add cripple to the base skill, and increase base life force generation.

Skill #4 (Isolate/Distress) : I would prefer a dash and stab attack similar to Engineer's Conduit Surge (skill #2); but the skills are fine, maybe increase the isolate spear's speed.

Skill #5 (Extirpate): Make it a flip-over skill. On first cast, taunt nearby enemies and block incoming attacks. On second cast (extirpate), strike enemies and apply 1 stack of extirpation per attack blocked (minimum 3).

[Genesis.8572]

It needs to be Condi Melee and not Power YET ANOTHER Power Melee. 

[Armageddeon.1795]

Just adding my thoughts on the spear:

After testing, I'm really concerned about the 120 range.  I don't think the lunge is going to be enough to keep the necro on the target. I'd like to see the spear add a range component to help this similar to the ranger and thief. This way, even if the target is out of range, necros are doing something.

Another concern is the ability to land perforate. A stun or immobilizer on one of the higher cooldown skills like the 4 or 5 could help set this up...actually, what if the lunge had a brief, stun/immobilizing component? It would help set up the next attack.

[Bale.3851]

21 hours ago, Matt H.6142 said:

Definitely the highest dps spear of the bunch.  Felt good to me, and worked so well, I didn't feel any learning curve, and quickly moved on to the other professions.

How so? While i dont doubt your feelings but how is it high dps? I tested it on golem with every buff and got like 24k dps as power reaper which is pretty low. While hybrids like engi were like 34k dps. Just wondering where the feeling of high dps stems from and no offense to you just curiosity.

[Bale.3851]

21 hours ago, Matt H.6142 said:

Definitely the highest dps spear of the bunch.  Felt good to me, and worked so well, I didn't feel any learning curve, and quickly moved on to the other professions.

How so? While i dont doubt your feelings but how is it high dps? I tested it on golem with every buff and got like 24k dps as power reaper which is pretty low. While hybrids like engi were like 34k dps. Just wondering where the feeling of high dps stems from and no offense to you just curiosity.

[Matt H.6142]

16 minutes ago, Bale.3851 said:

How so? While i dont doubt your feelings but how is it high dps? I tested it on golem with every buff and got like 24k dps as power reaper which is pretty low. While hybrids like engi were like 34k dps. Just wondering where the feeling of high dps stems from and no offense to you just curiosity.

In PVE, everything just seemed to melt.  My benchmark was one of the 4 Elite Kryptis generals by the Heitor’s gate portal.  Bit more of a challenge than the golem.  Reaper with spear.  Maybe you might say most of the damage was the spec but it killed the elite the quickest.  Mesmer Mirage was probably close but was more work.

[Josif.2015]

Dark Slash, Deadly Slice, Sinister Stab: reduce the cast time on Dark Slash from 0.75 to 0.50 seconds.
Perforate: no changes needed.
Addle: reduce the Life Force you gain when an enemy is using a skill from 20% to 15% and reduce the daze duration when you interrupt an enemy from 1.5 to 1 seconds.
Isolate: remove the unblockable effect.
Distress: reduce the number of additional shards from 3 to 2.
Extirpate: no changes needed.

[Bale.3851]

On 7/2/2024 at 6:46 PM, Matt H.6142 said:

In PVE, everything just seemed to melt.  My benchmark was one of the 4 Elite Kryptis generals by the Heitor’s gate portal.  Bit more of a challenge than the golem.  Reaper with spear.  Maybe you might say most of the damage was the spec but it killed the elite the quickest.  Mesmer Mirage was probably close but was more work.

Do u mean PVE = Open World? Dont get me wrong but nearly everything melts there. To get reliable data you have to compare meta speccs with every boon on golem to get an idea where the celing is if you do everything perfectly. And here is my problem with necro spear: While i really like the cd reset mechanic cause its good game design when u have chose whether you want more sustain aka shroud or more mobility aka leaving shroud the dmg is super low compared to other spears (hybrids like engi has). Like mentioned before ingi has around 34k dps and necro 24k so around 33% difference (WTF).

Also necro spear is a power weapon so half of the builds you could use already are out. This leaves you with power weapon competition namely GS, Axe, Sword or Dagger. And everyone of these are BETTER dps wise than spear. Thats the problem. No one will use spear in any competitive mode. And thats just sad.

Edited July 4 by Bale.3851

[Bale.3851]

9 minutes ago, Josif.2015 said:

Dark Slash, Deadly Slice, Sinister Stab: reduce the cast time on Dark Slash from 0.75 to 0.50 seconds.
Perforate: no changes needed.
Addle: reduce the Life Force you gain when an enemy is using a skill from 20% to 15% and reduce the daze duration when you interrupt an enemy from 1.5 to 1 seconds.
Isolate: remove the unblockable effect.
Distress: reduce the number of additional shards from 3 to 2.
Extirpate: no changes needed.

Just why?

[Batalix.2873]

10 hours ago, Bale.3851 said:

Just why?

This is some 4D chess, they are using reverse psychology on the balance team.

[Matt H.6142]

10 hours ago, Bale.3851 said:

Do u mean PVE = Open World? Dont get me wrong but nearly everything melts there. To get reliable data you have to compare meta speccs with every boon on golem to get an idea where the celing is if you do everything perfectly. And here is my problem with necro spear: While i really like the cd reset mechanic cause its good game design when u have chose whether you want more sustain aka shroud or more mobility aka leaving shroud the dmg is super low compared to other spears (hybrids like engi has). Like mentioned before ingi has around 34k dps and necro 24k so around 33% difference (WTF).

Also spear is a power weapon so half of the builds you could use already are out. This leaves you with power weapon competition namely GS, Axe, Sword or Dagger. And everyone of these are BETTER dps wise than spear. Thats the problem. No one will use spear in any competitive mode. And thats just sad.

That’s so weird to me.  Engi was the biggest struggle and the slowest to beat that same mob for me (in that default carrion stats and core traits and condi holo traits)   Marauder sw/sh holo didn’t give me the same grief, probably because of the heat bonuses on sword.  Fairest thing for me to say is I do play open world solo mostly so that’s my frame of reference. 

[Bale.3851]

23 hours ago, Matt H.6142 said:

That’s so weird to me.  Engi was the biggest struggle and the slowest to beat that same mob for me (in that default carrion stats and core traits and condi holo traits)   Marauder sw/sh holo didn’t give me the same grief, probably because of the heat bonuses on sword.  Fairest thing for me to say is I do play open world solo mostly so that’s my frame of reference. 

Maybe cause u played marauder. Highest dps is hybrid build. So you are missing the condi dmg.

[mirage.8046]

Numbers are not the problem. The power hits pretty hard like greatsword, but utility and theme disappointed me. This should not be another chill-themed weapon. Spear needs to become a melee hybrid weapon at the very least. Condis that are not chill would also be cool, so spear would not blend in with sword or greatsword.

To prevent it from overlapping with main-hand dagger, make almost every skill be able to apply poison. Additionally, every few stacks of soul shards should also be consumed to poison foes. Preferably 5 stacks of soul shards to apply poison. Don't let spear overlap with dagger and greatsword. I honestly can't tell you how quickly spear will be superseded by these two weapons, or spear replacing dagger + any. Spears should have a much greater reach than dagger as well, like between 240-300 range if you ask me.

Extirpate needs to be able to deny 6 boons in PvE, and in PvP and WvW, probably up from 3 to 5 unique boons denied. Change stacking boons like 10 might or 5 stability to count as one unique boon; as it is, 3 boons denied by Extirpate and 3 unique boons removed is not helpful given mass boon application in WvW. I'd also change the might into fury, so that power necro can generate its own fury without dread or relic of midnight king. 

Isolate should apply slow instead of chill. Also, remove requiring hitting an enemy to flip over to Distress. This is especially horrific to use against thieves or teleporting enemies, any enemies with evade frames, invulnerability, or dodges will also deny your mobility. YIKES. Recharging Isolate with Distress or by entering and exiting Death Shroud is the only reason to use this skill and even use Relic of Peitha. Distress should have an evade frame considering spear has little to no protection with the follow-up skill. You'll get blinded, stunned, immob, or CC'd to death if you get up close to someone. 

Addle is all right. I can appreciate having another source of immobilize and daze, since necro has lost its daze on wail of doom. :| Love that one can benefit from interrupting foes. If addle really wants to punish someone, why not increase the interrupted skill's cooldown by 7 seconds?

Perforate is a little boring. Could do with another boon like fury or vigor. 

I will say that I love that this weapon ties in with death shroud; perhaps, in future, look into necro's weapons to get this same treatment. 

Edited July 7 by mirage.8046

[Sigmoid.7082]

Exactly what are people referencing when they say it has the same range as a dagger? The autoattack and addle? While I understand the complaint about Addle most melee auto attacks, I would say the larger majority , have the 130 range. 

From an attack speed standpoint the auto is also well within the range of other weapons 

While the weapon has issues I wouldn't class the range, nor speed, of the auto attack amongst them. 

Edited July 6 by Sigmoid.7082

[mirage.8046]

Sure, range is a minor complaint apart from the spear's other issues; given how long a spear is, it could have a little higher reach than a dagger. Understandably, I don't believe anet is going to change it because real-life logic doesn't always apply to weapons designs.

Speed is not a problem because it has good cast times. 

Genuinely, I have no idea how anet will want to rework spear despite many people's disappointments.

[Drarnor Kunoram.5180]

4 hours ago, mirage.8046 said:

Sure, range is a minor complaint apart from the spear's other issues; given how long a spear is, it could have a little higher reach than a dagger. Understandably, I don't believe anet is going to change it because real-life logic doesn't always apply to weapons designs.

Speed is not a problem because it has good cast times. 

Genuinely, I have no idea how anet will want to rework spear despite many people's disappointments.

Eh, speeding up the auto to 1/2 second cast at least on the first part (and preferably on the third) will help with the poor life force and shard generation, two issues that people pretty universally had with the weapon.

[Sigmoid.7082]

7 hours ago, mirage.8046 said:

given how long a spear is, it could have a little higher reach than a dagger. 

You would expect a sword and a great sword also to have more range than a dagger but they do not, they also have 130. That is part of my confusion around the hyperfixation on comparing it to dagger. 130 just seems to be the default melee range for all melee weapons. While something like 150~180 would be nice I can't really seem them making that change, especially to the auto. I do expect something to happen to Addle though since the skill just feels bad.

 

2 hours ago, Drarnor Kunoram.5180 said:

Eh, speeding up the auto to 1/2 second cast at least on the first part (and preferably on the third) will help with the poor life force and shard generation, two issues that people pretty universally had with the weapon.

While I understand the idea I don't see it working or being done due to how fast that would actually make the weapon. I can see them solving the shards and LF issues other ways though. 

 

7 hours ago, mirage.8046 said:

Genuinely, I have no idea how anet will want to rework spear despite many people's disappointments.

Same, though I doubt it will get any massive reworks. It isn't bad per day, just janky. There are some good ideas in there though but what Anet tend to do is use these to ID the problem and do their own thing about it. One thing I do expect though is that Extirpate is changed to be more like Winds of Disenchantment where its a reduction in boon duration for the targets its on as right now it isn't doing what its supposed to be doing.

 

 

Edited July 7 by Sigmoid.7082

[Drarnor Kunoram.5180]

8 hours ago, Sigmoid.7082 said:

While I understand the idea I don't see it working or being done due to how fast that would actually make the weapon. I can see them solving the shards and LF issues other ways though.

Oh, I don't think speeding up the auto will solve the issues, don't get me wrong. Fixing those issues with the rest of the kit makes more sense (though adding life force to each swing of the auto is probably a good move).

[XECOR.2814]

On 7/7/2024 at 8:36 PM, Drarnor Kunoram.5180 said:

Oh, I don't think speeding up the auto will solve the issues, don't get me wrong. Fixing those issues with the rest of the kit makes more sense (though adding life force to each swing of the auto is probably a good move).

The feedback is pretty consistent.
Faster autos, bigger range.
Some Life force+Vuln on all 3 auto chains, chill is redundant with greatsword and useless for melee 3rd chain.
More range on Addle. Possibly more duration on immob and greatar base effects, depends on how it lands with better range.
More soul shards generation on skills and a bit longer duration.
Extirpate just doesnt land well without #4. it needs something.
Over-reliance of the whole kit on #4 to do anything.
Isolate is fine but distress is very empty and leaves u with nothing. It requires a cover condi like blind.

[CrankyBoy.9456]

Pretty new but I figured I add my 2 cents, was planning on doing after beta but got side-tracked with life. Anyhow the spear looked really cool but felt like a weaker version of the Great sword with even less practicality. However, it's not by any means a lost cause, if you maybe tweaked the damage to work in favor of condition instead of power and made the combo effects flow a little smoother, you'd have something cool and new. As it stands it'd have to be totally broken for me to go away from staff let alone Great sword. But really nice idea, hope you make the appropriate changes.