World versus Walls

[goron.7916]

Congrats Anet, this game mode has become nothing more than a semi-afk pip farmer 'lets fight walls instead of players'. Nobody defends anymore, and its pointless too. How am i going to stop a whole zerg on my own? Is this what you wanted? Anyway wvw was the only reason i kept playing, but in its current state gw2 is completely dead to me.

[SweetPotato.7456]

13 minutes ago, goron.7916 said:

Congrats Anet, this game mode has become nothing more than a semi-afk pip farmer 'lets fight walls instead of players'. Nobody defends anymore, and its pointless too. How am i going to stop a whole zerg on my own? Is this what you wanted? Anyway wvw was the only reason i kept playing, but in its current state gw2 is completely dead to me.

so, one person stopping 50 players getting into an objective is balance? 

[EstaticFear.7692]

1 minute ago, SweetPotato.7456 said:

so, one person stopping 50 players getting into an objective is balance? 

The point is "No body defends anymore" not 1vs 50.

[Gop.8713]

Yes, anet has made it clear that they are not interested in extended sieges. And as a fellow tier & defend enjoyer, I miss it. But I also recognize that it was the correct decision, has resulted in much more active, vibrant maps . . .

[SweetPotato.7456]

1 hour ago, EstaticFear.7692 said:

The point is "No body defends anymore" not 1vs 50.

how come we always have 3 ways fight in SMC , it's harder to take it now compare to previous occasion, because there are more players defending it
 

[TheIceman.1039]

Rather, perhaps the problem is that no one bothers to protect Borderland Objects anymore. Too many worlds clog only EBG. Nobody wants to leave EBG. It would be time to give extra wxp.. etc. extra values back to Borderland..

[Dawdler.8521]

41 minutes ago, TheIceman.1039 said:

Rather, perhaps the problem is that no one bothers to protect Borderland Objects anymore. Too many worlds clog only EBG. Nobody wants to leave EBG. It would be time to give extra wxp.. etc. extra values back to Borderland..

12 years of WvW in a nutshell.

[CafPow.1542]

Yesterday i was spending 2 hours on RBL just running in circles and defending all the keeps. Not always successful but we did it. The whole map helped.

so i guess it’s a team issue.

[Chaba.5410]

5 hours ago, EstaticFear.7692 said:

The point is "No body defends anymore" not 1vs 50.

Speak for yourself.

[EstaticFear.7692]

7 hours ago, SweetPotato.7456 said:

how come we always have 3 ways fight in SMC , it's harder to take it now compare to previous occasion, because there are more players defending it
 

That's the nature of ZvZ .
 

While you mention that SMC sees more three-way fights and is harder to take, this doesn't reflect the overall WvW experience. The point raised initially is about the lack of defense in general. Specific instances like SMC may have intense moments, but these are exceptions rather than the norm.

The real issue is that in many parts of WvW, players no longer bother defending their objectives. This is a clear indication of a systemic problem where the gameplay mechanics and rewards do not incentivize defensive strategies adequately. When the majority of the game mode revolves around PvE-like activities, such as fighting walls instead of engaging in dynamic player encounters, it highlights a significant imbalance and a drift from the original spirit of WvW.

So, while SMC might be an exception, it doesn’t negate the broader problem that many players experience across different maps and objectives. Addressing these larger issues is crucial for restoring the true essence of WvW.

 

3 hours ago, Chaba.5410 said:

Speak for yourself.

When I say, "No body defends anymore," it reflects a widespread sentiment among the WvW community. This isn't just about my personal experience; it's about the collective feedback from many players who have observed a decline in defensive efforts across various servers and maps.

The core of the issue lies in the current game mechanics and incentives, which have shifted focus away from coordinated defense. Players are often more motivated by pip farming and capturing objectives than by strategic defense and meaningful battles. This shift undermines the foundational principles of WvW.

Therefore, while your experience may differ, it's crucial to recognize that many players feel that the essence of WvW is being lost. A more balanced approach that encourages both offensive and defensive strategies is necessary to revive the true spirit of this game mode.

So I did speak for myself and who feels like me. Who did you speak for ? Biden?

[SweetPotato.7456]

2 minutes ago, EstaticFear.7692 said:

That's the nature of ZvZ .
 

While you mention that SMC sees more three-way fights and is harder to take, this doesn't reflect the overall WvW experience. The point raised initially is about the lack of defense in general. Specific instances like SMC may have intense moments, but these are exceptions rather than the norm.

The real issue is that in many parts of WvW, players no longer bother defending their objectives. This is a clear indication of a systemic problem where the gameplay mechanics and rewards do not incentivize defensive strategies adequately. When the majority of the game mode revolves around PvE-like activities, such as fighting walls instead of engaging in dynamic player encounters, it highlights a significant imbalance and a drift from the original spirit of WvW.

So, while SMC might be an exception, it doesn’t negate the broader problem that many players experience across different maps and objectives. Addressing these larger issues is crucial for restoring the true essence of WvW.

SMC is an example, everywhere we go for the last years have been a three ways fight, and is getting more active than before. 

[EstaticFear.7692]

20 minutes ago, SweetPotato.7456 said:

SMC is an example, everywhere we go for the last years have been a three ways fight, and is getting more active than before. 

While you claim that everywhere you go has been a three-way fight and more active than before, this does not reflect the reality that many players face on a daily basis. The increase in activity in specific areas like SMC does not compensate for the widespread issues of lack of defense and meaningful engagement across the broader WvW landscape.

The truth is, many parts of WvW have turned into ghost towns where players are more focused on farming pips and attacking empty structures rather than engaging in actual  combat. The fact that you see more activity in certain hotspots does not negate the overall decline in quality and strategic depth that WvW once had.

What you fail to acknowledge is that these "active" spots are exceptions, not the rule. The broader experience for many players is one of disillusionment and frustration as the core mechanics and incentives no longer promote the balanced, strategic gameplay that WvW was originally designed for.

The argument isn't about isolated pockets of activity; it's about the overall health and integrity of WvW as a game mode. The radical changes made by Anet have failed to address the power imbalances and have instead fragmented the community, forcing players to hop from guild to guild in a desperate attempt to find meaningful gameplay.

If your experience is solely based on a few active zones, then you're either incredibly lucky or willfully ignoring the broader issues that plague the game. The reality is, for many players, WvW has lost its charm and purpose because the fundamental issues remain unaddressed.

So before you dismiss the concerns of the broader community based on your limited perspective, try to understand that the problem is systemic. It's about preserving the strategic, balanced, and engaging gameplay that WvW was meant to offer, not just a few instances of increased activity.
 

 

If you look at the poll under this topic, two-thirds of the voters prefer the old system, which already summarizes the situation.

 

[Chichimec.9364]

1 hour ago, EstaticFear.7692 said:

When I say, "No body defends anymore," it reflects a widespread sentiment among the WvW community. This isn't just about my personal experience; it's about the collective feedback from many players who have observed a decline in defensive efforts across various servers and maps.

The core of the issue lies in the current game mechanics and incentives, which have shifted focus away from coordinated defense. Players are often more motivated by pip farming and capturing objectives than by strategic defense and meaningful battles. This shift undermines the foundational principles of WvW.

Therefore, while your experience may differ, it's crucial to recognize that many players feel that the essence of WvW is being lost. A more balanced approach that encourages both offensive and defensive strategies is necessary to revive the true spirit of this game mode.

So I did speak for myself and who feels like me. Who did you speak for ? Biden?

My WvW guild runs 2 hours a day, 7 days a week, and I generally run with them 5-7 days a week. Generally we stay on the borderland maps, usually only going to EBG when there's a call out for help, from our friends there. We do a lot of attacking and defending on those borderland maps. While we don't defend everything, we will defend tiered up keeps and towers and we do respond to call outs from our allies on the borderland maps for aid with attacking or defending. No we don't have fights at every attack but we do go in prepared for them. It was that way before the beta and it is that way during this beta. Me? I only speak for myself but this is what I experience on a daily basis.

Oh, there is one thing I will add second-hand. For IRL reasons I don't play at reset but guildies who do report fierce fighting then. Shrug, like I say, that is what I hear from others, not something I've experienced myself.

[ArchonWing.9480]

Vs what walls?

With it taking 50% to restore a wall, people aren't fighting those either much.

[Chaba.5410]

3 hours ago, EstaticFear.7692 said:

When I say, "No body defends anymore," it reflects a widespread sentiment among the WvW community. This isn't just about my personal experience; it's about the collective feedback from many players who have observed a decline in defensive efforts across various servers and maps.

That's my point.  It's a subjective opinion supported only by your personal experience and any echo chambers.  I prefer more objectivity.  I don't believe your assertion over what is really widespread.
 

3 hours ago, EstaticFear.7692 said:

The core of the issue lies in the current game mechanics and incentives, which have shifted focus away from coordinated defense. Players are often more motivated by pip farming and capturing objectives than by strategic defense and meaningful battles. This shift undermines the foundational principles of WvW.

I agree that defense has been toned down.  But let's not pretend that 1) now nobody defends and 2) offense/defense objective balance is some sort of principle that should remain frozen in stone lest the whole game mode house of cards comes tumbling down.  We've seen changes to objective offense/defense balance in the past, the most notorious example was defense buffs when HoT was released.  It should be viewed like balance changes to skills.  We also have seen what practices have in the past been actually destructive to the game mode because Anet told us the effect it had: the old tournaments and all three borderland maps being desert.
 

3 hours ago, EstaticFear.7692 said:

If you look at the poll under this topic, two-thirds of the voters prefer the old system, which already summarizes the situation.

This is a prime example of using echo chambers.  This poll is only representative of people who answered the poll.  The vast majority don't actually care enough to come to the forum and answer polls, let alone are even aware of it.  I personally would never take a position based on such subjective methodology.

Edited July 2 by Chaba.5410

[Chaba.5410]

3 hours ago, EstaticFear.7692 said:

this does not reflect the reality that many players face on a daily basis. The increase in activity in specific areas like SMC does not compensate for the widespread issues of lack of defense and meaningful engagement across the broader WvW landscape.

Show us the numbers.  It's a rhetorical statement though.  No one has access to that type of data.

I suppose one could do some sort of analysis on current vs. historical objective flipping from data streamed via the API.  How would "meaningful engagement" even look data-wise?  Probably would be inferred by the number of defense events before a flip, eh?  But even that would have faults since one person can keep tapping a keep.

Game developers, I've noticed, usually take feedback in the form of "how does this make you feel" and then they check their data.  If data indicates one thing while feelings trend in a different way, they have a tendency to view the change as positive or in the direction they want to go and then seek to improve the feel through other means.  Like my earlier example with desert borderlands, their data agreed with the feel and they pulled it for the most part.

Edited July 2 by Chaba.5410

[Jski.6180]

Well during the beta ele was able to do dmg to walls but beyond that you need more then one person to build siegs to take down walls and on some level you need to def that siege.

Keep in mind the other players are not there for your enjoyment they are trying to have fun just the same so do not think they should be defing every thing you wish to take or your team should always be defing the same things you want them to be.

[TheGrimm.5624]

19 hours ago, goron.7916 said:

Congrats Anet, this game mode has become nothing more than a semi-afk pip farmer 'lets fight walls instead of players'. Nobody defends anymore, and its pointless too. How am i going to stop a whole zerg on my own? Is this what you wanted? Anyway wvw was the only reason i kept playing, but in its current state gw2 is completely dead to me.

You kind of complicate the issue with this.

No one could hold with 1 vs 50 before, even before any of the siege nerfs and other things like wall repairs. People complained that they couldn't beat 20 defenders with 50 before, which also wasn't really true. 

For both defenders and attackers it comes down to are players going to put in the effort at an objective to either take or hold. Part of that is also in individual players and tags. Mind you if you don't have people on that map, that is a different issue.  

Do they keep nerfing defense, yes. Can it be overcome, yes. 

[EstaticFear.7692]

6 hours ago, Chaba.5410 said:

That's my point.  It's a subjective opinion supported only by your personal experience and any echo chambers.  I prefer more objectivity.  I don't believe your assertion over what is really widespread.
 

I agree that defense has been toned down.  But let's not pretend that 1) now nobody defends and 2) offense/defense objective balance is some sort of principle that should remain frozen in stone lest the whole game mode house of cards comes tumbling down.  We've seen changes to objective offense/defense balance in the past, the most notorious example was defense buffs when HoT was released.  It should be viewed like balance changes to skills.  We also have seen what practices have in the past been actually destructive to the game mode because Anet told us the effect it had: the old tournaments and all three borderland maps being desert.
 

This is a prime example of using echo chambers.  This poll is only representative of people who answered the poll.  The vast majority don't actually care enough to come to the forum and answer polls, let alone are even aware of it.  I personally would never take a position based on such subjective methodology.

 

6 hours ago, Chaba.5410 said:

Show us the numbers.  It's a rhetorical statement though.  No one has access to that type of data.

I suppose one could do some sort of analysis on current vs. historical objective flipping from data streamed via the API.  How would "meaningful engagement" even look data-wise?  Probably would be inferred by the number of defense events before a flip, eh?  But even that would have faults since one person can keep tapping a keep.

Game developers, I've noticed, usually take feedback in the form of "how does this make you feel" and then they check their data.  If data indicates one thing while feelings trend in a different way, they have a tendency to view the change as positive or in the direction they want to go and then seek to improve the feel through other means.  Like my earlier example with desert borderlands, their data agreed with the feel and they pulled it for the most part.

 Ignoring the facts and relying solely on personal opinions does not paint an accurate picture of the overall state of the game. Let's talk with data.

First, let's start with Tier 1:

Kormir's Library:

• Kills: 21,425
• Deaths: 12,485
• K/D Ratio: 1.72
• PPK: 18.04%

Palawadan:

• Kills: 12,511
• Deaths: 18,316
• K/D Ratio: 0.68
• PPK: 11.11%

Fortune's Vale:

• Kills: 7,790
• Deaths: 12,208
• K/D Ratio: 0.64
• PPK: 6.84%

It's clear here that Kormir's Library is far ahead of the other two worlds. 

Let's move on to Tier 2:

Ettin's Back:

• Kills: 26,382
• Deaths: 12,511
• K/D Ratio: 2.11
• PPK: 20.19%

Grenth's Door:

• Kills: 12,709
• Deaths: 20,202
• K/D Ratio: 0.63
• PPK: 10.44%

Domain of Anguish:

• Kills: 14,961
• Deaths: 22,173
• K/D Ratio: 0.68
• PPK: 12.25%

Again, Ettin's Back's numbers are much higher compared to other worlds. 

Tier 3:

Bava Nisos:

• Kills: 15,767
• Deaths: 16,362
• K/D Ratio: 0.96
• PPK: 13.85%

Great House Aviary:

• Kills: 18,172
• Deaths: 18,290
• K/D Ratio: 0.99
• PPK: 16.81%

Grekvelin Burrows:

• Kills: 12,605
• Deaths: 16,932
• K/D Ratio: 0.74
• PPK: 9.96%

That's the only one looks normal.

Tier 4:

Mirror of Lyssa:

• Kills: 33,428
• Deaths: 18,229
• K/D Ratio: 1.83
• PPK: 16.43%

Silent Woods:

• Kills: 12,187
• Deaths: 21,067
• K/D Ratio: 0.58
• PPK: 13.91%

Dragimmar:

• Kills: 9,665
• Deaths: 17,641
• K/D Ratio: 0.55
• PPK: 13.73%

33.4k kills.. Yea that's amazing balanced.

Tier 5:

Bloodstone Gulch:

• Kills: 20,317
• Deaths: 16,028
• K/D Ratio: 1.27
• PPK: 14.41%

Temple of Febe:

• Kills: 11,358
• Deaths: 14,839
• K/D Ratio: 0.77
• PPK: 10.34%

Gyala Hatchery:

• Kills: 16,126
• Deaths: 14,548
• K/D Ratio: 1.11
• PPK: 15.35%

Yea again..

Tier 6:

Frost Citadel:

• Kills: 19,814
• Deaths: 16,008
• K/D Ratio: 1.24
• PPK: 12.69%

Skritt'sburgh:

• Kills: 15,313
• Deaths: 15,864
• K/D Ratio: 0.97
• PPK: 14.09%

Melandru's Dome:

• Kills: 9,869
• Deaths: 14,594
• K/D Ratio: 0.68
• PPK: 10.88%

And again..

These statistics clearly show that certain worlds consistently outperform while others lag behind. This indicates that the power imbalance has not been resolved by the beta changes and that certain worlds remain excessively strong compared to others.

And plus that poll,

And plus "Players are running from guild to guild trying to survive in WvW, turning into ping-pong balls between communities as they attempt to balance power on their own." 

These datas, statistics and the other stuffs disprove your arguments. Anyway, everyone can see very clearly what's going on.

[Chaba.5410]

16 minutes ago, EstaticFear.7692 said:

These datas, statistics and the other stuffs disprove your arguments. Anyway, everyone can see very clearly what's going on.

You just disproved yourself.  None of the data you provided supports your assertion that "nobody is defending" or that your opinion reflects a widespread sentiment.  It supports other conclusions, just not the one you asserted that I took issue with.

Also, just a suggestion, but the data you are looking at is incomplete.

Edited July 2 by Chaba.5410

[Dawdler.8521]

21 minutes ago, EstaticFear.7692 said:

 

 Ignoring the facts and relying solely on personal opinions does not paint an accurate picture of the overall state of the game. Let's talk with data.

First, let's start with Tier 1:

Kormir's Library:

• Kills: 21,425
• Deaths: 12,485
• K/D Ratio: 1.72
• PPK: 18.04%

Palawadan:

• Kills: 12,511
• Deaths: 18,316
• K/D Ratio: 0.68
• PPK: 11.11%

Fortune's Vale:

• Kills: 7,790
• Deaths: 12,208
• K/D Ratio: 0.64
• PPK: 6.84%

It's clear here that Kormir's Library is far ahead of the other two worlds. 

Let's move on to Tier 2:

Ettin's Back:

• Kills: 26,382
• Deaths: 12,511
• K/D Ratio: 2.11
• PPK: 20.19%

Grenth's Door:

• Kills: 12,709
• Deaths: 20,202
• K/D Ratio: 0.63
• PPK: 10.44%

Domain of Anguish:

• Kills: 14,961
• Deaths: 22,173
• K/D Ratio: 0.68
• PPK: 12.25%

Again, Ettin's Back's numbers are much higher compared to other worlds. 

Tier 3:

Bava Nisos:

• Kills: 15,767
• Deaths: 16,362
• K/D Ratio: 0.96
• PPK: 13.85%

Great House Aviary:

• Kills: 18,172
• Deaths: 18,290
• K/D Ratio: 0.99
• PPK: 16.81%

Grekvelin Burrows:

• Kills: 12,605
• Deaths: 16,932
• K/D Ratio: 0.74
• PPK: 9.96%

That's the only one looks normal.

Tier 4:

Mirror of Lyssa:

• Kills: 33,428
• Deaths: 18,229
• K/D Ratio: 1.83
• PPK: 16.43%

Silent Woods:

• Kills: 12,187
• Deaths: 21,067
• K/D Ratio: 0.58
• PPK: 13.91%

Dragimmar:

• Kills: 9,665
• Deaths: 17,641
• K/D Ratio: 0.55
• PPK: 13.73%

33.4k kills.. Yea that's amazing balanced.

Tier 5:

Bloodstone Gulch:

• Kills: 20,317
• Deaths: 16,028
• K/D Ratio: 1.27
• PPK: 14.41%

Temple of Febe:

• Kills: 11,358
• Deaths: 14,839
• K/D Ratio: 0.77
• PPK: 10.34%

Gyala Hatchery:

• Kills: 16,126
• Deaths: 14,548
• K/D Ratio: 1.11
• PPK: 15.35%

Yea again..

Tier 6:

Frost Citadel:

• Kills: 19,814
• Deaths: 16,008
• K/D Ratio: 1.24
• PPK: 12.69%

Skritt'sburgh:

• Kills: 15,313
• Deaths: 15,864
• K/D Ratio: 0.97
• PPK: 14.09%

Melandru's Dome:

• Kills: 9,869
• Deaths: 14,594
• K/D Ratio: 0.68
• PPK: 10.88%

And again..

These statistics clearly show that certain worlds consistently outperform while others lag behind. This indicates that the power imbalance has not been resolved by the beta changes and that certain worlds remain excessively strong compared to others.

And plus that poll,

And plus "Players are running from guild to guild trying to survive in WvW, turning into ping-pong balls between communities as they attempt to balance power on their own." 

These datas, statistics and the other stuffs disprove your arguments. Anyway, everyone can see very clearly what's going on.

You conveniently forgot the actual scores.

T1 for example is 203/197/188.

That's not far ahead.

[EstaticFear.7692]

7 minutes ago, Chaba.5410 said:

You just disproved yourself.  None of the data you provided supports your assertion that "nobody is defending" or that your opinion reflects a widespread sentiment.  It supports other conclusions, just not the one you asserted that I took issue with.

You're missing the point. The data shows significant disparities in performance, like Kormir's Library with a 1.72 K/D ratio, which discourages defense from weaker worlds. When one world dominates, others lose motivation to defend, leading to the widespread sentiment of dissatisfaction. The problem is clear: the current system is flawed, and it demoralizes players from even attempting to defend.And also people need to feel a sense of belonging to be motivated to defend. This is another form of motivation. 

[ArchonWing.9480]

Hmm Eu T3 curiously has all 3 servers below 1.0 KDR

Fall damage ftw?

[Chaba.5410]

20 minutes ago, EstaticFear.7692 said:

It's clear here that Kormir's Library is far ahead of the other two worlds. 

Palawadan is only 6 victory points behind Kormir's Library.  Fortune's Vale is 9 VP behind Paladawan.   That doesn't look like "far ahead".  Any one of these servers can suddenly surge ahead of the others in a single day.

Really not worth picking through the rest.  A lot of them look similar to what we got with server links too.  The known big outlier in EU is MoL which is a result of the matchmaking algorithm.

 

[Chaba.5410]

1 minute ago, ArchonWing.9480 said:

Hmm Eu T3 curiously has all 3 servers below 1.0 KDR

Fall damage ftw?

Or maybe something to do with third-server kill credit for assists?